After more than a week of back-and-forth discussion, the Yankees and Pirates formally announced the deal that will send A.J. Burnett to Pittsburgh. The trade allows the Bombers to unload $13MM of the $33MM still owed to the veteran pitcher over the next two years. Aside from shedding payroll, the Yanks also receive outfielder Exicardo Cayones and right-hander Diego Moreno in the trade.
With the Burnett deal finalized, the Yankees will now have the flexibility to add a bat or two. The club is reportedly eyeing Raul Ibanez and would like to bring back Eric Chavez as well.
As Tim Dierkes noted last week, the Pirates were a solid fit for the 35-year-old as the club has struggled to find a frontline starter on the open market. Burnett held a limited no-trade clause which allowed him to block trades to ten clubs, but it appears that the Bucs were not on that list.
Burnett will take a physical on Sunday and, due to the amount of money changing hands, the trade will be subject to league approval. The Bucs will pay the right-hander $5MM in 2012 and $8MM in '13 as they look to help him return to his pre-2010 form.
The much-maligned Burnett posted a 4.79 ERA, a 1.99 K/BB ratio and a 1.45 WHIP in three seasons with New York after signing a five-year, $82.5MM contract in the 2008-09 offseason. He did, however, play a key role in the Yankees' 2009 World Series title and averaged 195 innings per year during his time in the Bronx. This durability makes the 35-year-old Burnett an attractive quantity to the Pirates, who haven't had a pitcher reach 195 innings since 2009.
The Pirates have been looking for veteran starting pitching this winter but, after signing Erik Bedard, were turned down by free agents Edwin Jackson and Roy Oswalt. Burnett will have a guaranteed spot in a Pittsburgh rotation that will also feature Bedard and James McDonald, with Jeff Karstens, Charlie Morton and Kevin Correia all likely battling for the final two spots.
For the Yankees, getting $13MM of Burnett's salary off the books frees up enough payroll space for the team to pursue some depth needs. We've heard the Yankees are looking at Raul Ibanez and Eric Chavez as left-handed bats to fill the part-time DH and backup infield roles, respectively.
The finalization of the deal was first reported by Ken Rosnethal of FOX Sports (Twitter links). Jonathan Mayo of MLB.com (via Twitter) reported Cayones' inclusion in the deal while Joel Sherman of the New York Post tweeted the news of Moreno heading to New York. Rob Biertempfel of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review (via Twitter) had the breakdown of how the Bucs will pay Burnett. Jon Heyman of CBS Sports (via Twitter) first reported that Burnett passed his physical and the trade was approved by MLB.
Zach Links contributed to this post.
Burnett always gets knocked because 1) He’s overpaid, and 2) If his performance lived up to his talent, he’d be a hall of famer. He’s a very difficult guy to have on the team you root for, and the Yankees probably needed him gone, but two years and $13 million for him is pretty reasonable.
Meh, I don’t think it’s a big deal here in New York, since he did help the team win a ring. That’s all that matters.
Sure. The Yankees made an all-in move and immediately won a championship. That contract is still quizzical, while the Sabathia contract signed the same offseason worked out remarkably well.
winning a ring in 2009 is all that matters in 2010 and 2011? i think you are confused about yankee standards
In all fairness though, them not winning in 2010 and 2011 wasn’t just Burnett.
and it wasn’t just burnett that won it in 2009. i don’t see the connection
he’s not excused because of 2009 and 2009 isn’t erased because of the last 2 years. he’s just a bust. it happens
Can’t argue with that.
Did someone on MLBTR just admit they have an inferior argument and let the idea drop? Homer, I applaud you being a normal human.
As difficult it seems to be to win a ring these days, I’ll definitely look past the last two years. Shame on the Yanks for not having more depth in the rotation, though. They screwed up the whole Joba thing and Hughes just hasn’t broken through yet (if he ever does)…
But at the same time, yankees fans would be a lot more pissed about it if they hadn’t won in 2009…
Agreed. He would have lasted about a month into 2010 before the fans unleashed hell on him. I was always willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt – AJ could pitch lights out if the stars were aligned properly, but it happened so rarely the last season and a half that it was getting increasingly difficult to keep believing.
yes he was. He is a NL pitcher
Not confused at all. My logic is that sure the team didn’t win every year during Burnett’s time, but, he significantly contributed to the team when the team was in full gear, unlike say past pitchers like Weaver, Wright, Johnson, Brown, Pavano, Vazquez, to name a few, none of which won a ring for the team. So c’mon, you tip your hat to A.J. tell him thank you for the good times and the many pies to the face and wish him luck.
a
i said you were confused because you said the fact that he contributed in 2009 is “all that matters”. it’s true that he wasn’t the worst player ever and it’s fine to tip your cap, but it’s still not true that 2009 is all that matters
it’s all good, I’m excited about the up-coming season. Play ball
I like that the college journalist starts his sentences with “Meh.”
Also, I can’t speak to whether or not AJ helping the Yanks win a ring is “enough,” because my team hasn’t won a ring in 103 years (and Counting – I have to update my username).
C’mon, can’t worry about ledes and kickers 24/7. Cubs are going to have their day, and the entire baseball nation will party with you guys. Peace.
You too, my fellow collegiate journalist. And props for spelling “ledes” right – too many writers mess that one up.
assuming the ‘prospects’ are just fodder, 2/$13M is about right for burnett in the NL central. if the players going to NY are at all valuable, this is pretty questionable for pittsburgh
This is a nice deal for the Pirates assuming the prospects are of the expendable variety. Beats signing an arm like Harang or Capuano for two years at similar money and at the current time its more then hard for the Pirates to attract more sought after free agents.
Seems like a win-win to me. Expect he’ll fair much better in the NL Central then he did in the AL East.
2/10 would have been nice as i’ve made those comparisons before (harang, capuano, chen). 2/$13 is less nice, but still solid. as always, burnett has the stuff to be dominant. a friendlier pitching environment can’t hurt and even if he continues to drag his feet he’ll be worth it at that price
I’m confused by this concept. It’s all about price? I thought it was about winning. It would be nice to see Pittsburgh contend again one of these years. A rotation loaded with pitchers who are “worth” their salaries is not going to get them there.
worrying about winning without worrying about price gets you nowhere fast
the pirates have spent aggressively on the draft and conservatively on a roster that is a couple years of development away from contention no matter what they do. that’s the right formula when you have their budget
That must be some kind of Zen concept. If Burnett can’t help them win games over the next two seasons, then he wasn’t worth anything. I don’t think Burnett is awful, but the Pirates aren’t getting anywhere anytime soon if they’re counting on a Yankee castoff to be their #2 starter.
they aren’t getting anywhere anytime soon (2012) either way
burnett will help them win games; that’s what it means to say he’s going to be worth the money. what he won’t do is speed up time and transform their roster into playoff readiness
confusing, i know
Not confusing, more like pointless. Burnett becomes (I presume) the Pirates’ highest salaried player, and they give up two prospects for him. Playoff readiness seems no closer. Are any Pittsburgh fans happy with this?
they are busy right now weeping over the loss of two “prospects” they’d never heard of. as soon as they recover i’m sure they’ll let you know
As I’m sure you speak for Pittsburgh fans.
he speaks for common sense.
I’m very happy with the move. Even if he doesn’t improve at all with a move to the NL (which is unlikely), he’s still an upgrade to the rotation. With an improvement, he becomes a bit of a bargain and a possible trade chip.
I’ve never really understood the whole concept of – That team is bad, so they shouldn’t bother adding any players or try to improve.
With the additions the Pirates have made this offseason, I think there is a very good chance at a winning season. While finishing over .500 isn’t an ultimate goal, it’s certainly a step in the right direction with even more talent like Cole, Taillon, Marte etc coming up soon.
The Pirates had a 15 game improvement last season. If they can keep moving the needle in that direction and adding talent, then it won’t be impossible to lure free agents to the Pirates without having to give up a Jayson Werth kind of deal.
Very little not to be happy about with this move.
Not arguing that the team should not try to improve, only seeing this as potentially mortgaging the future of a team that’s never going to have a lot to spend.
They’repaying him $5MM this year. Not sure how that’s breaking the bank or mortgaging the future. Seems like a bit of an over-reaction. If anything, it’s a bit of a bargain. it would have cost the Pirates $9.75MM to pick up Maholm’s option this year.
they aren’t getting anywhere anytime soon (2012) either way
burnett will help them win games; that’s what it means to say he’s going to be worth the money. what he won’t do is speed up time and transform their roster into playoff readiness
confusing, i know
I get your point. Why pay $5M extra to still suck.
Yes, thank you. That was my point exactly.
because they haven’t had a pitcher who has thrown 200 innings in a season in 3 years?
Because, like Todd Smith said above, they still needed help in the rotation, and have a hard time attracting free agents, and if he turns things around then they might be able to trade him again for better prospects then they gave up for him.
they traded Aaron Baker, a run-of-the-mill minor leaguer, for a few months of Derek Lee. he had a very nice average and solid defense while with the Pirates. i’m just bummed that they didn’t keep him around.
i guess my point is that if they could pull /that/ off, they shouldn’t have to give up half-decent prospects for AJ Burnett.
Just keep in mind that they didn’t really have a chance with the Pirates…however, they have a chance to be MLBers for the Yankees. Underneath the right guidance, Diego has a chance to be a great closer or setup man. Exicardo Cayones on the other hand has some great power potential with his build (he already has the speed), but the boy really needs to learn how to throw and catch a ball or else he’ll eventually be destined for the bench.
Prospects never have a chance in Pittsburgh with such a loaded roster. Clearly, they won’t have any problems with being blocked in New York.
Wait….what?
Todd, you must be confused and assuming I meant a lot of things beyond the scope of the comment. To summarize…it’s the mentality of management in Pittsburgh compared to New York…you are either in or the out crowd in Pittsburgh…Diego had solid seasons in the minors, so why not promote him up the ranks? If he was in New York, he would have at least been in AAA last year. Pittsburgh doesn’t give the potential talent a chance unless they were deemed to be stars to begin with when they were signed in the draft like Walker, Pearce, and Alverez along with his dismal batting average. When they had all of the injuries last year, they could have test drove a few guys in the majors who were doing well in AAA and AA. Instead of giving Marte and Hague a reward and giving them a September call up, they went home. It is hard to break that mentality in Pittsburgh. I’m surprised that Cabrera was recognized for his efforts last year and got a invite to Spring Training. Other than through talent, the Yankees reward hard work and promote from within. So not saying that it’s easier to break into the Yankees 40 man roster…however, you will get recognized as opposed to shun in their organization.
I think the system has been bad for so long that people tend to over react to any kind of success. If anybody manages to hit over .300 at any point, he needs to get promoted to the majors immediately. It’s not necessarily a good idea.
Alex Presley is a good example. He came out of nowhere in 2010 and put up some solid numbers his first year in AA. He was rushed through the system and promoted up to the majors – and didn’t really do much while he was there. In 2011, they started him off back in AAA and let him get a little more time in. Seemed to really pay off when he got promoted to the majors again mid-season last year. I don’t really see the need to continue to make the same mistakes with a guy like Hague. Especially not with Marte.
There’s no conspiracy theory for why Diego Moreno isn’t getting fast tracked through the system. He just simply isn’t that good. He looks really good throwing hard as a 26 year old at single A – but so far, that seems to be his ceiling.
Here’s a slightly outdated scouting report I saw on Moreno:
Diego Moreno, rhp, Pirates (high Class A Bradenton): With 95-98 mph gas, Moreno’s fastball has earned 80 grades on the 20-80 scale from multiple scouts. A 24-year-old out of Venezuela, Moreno backs up his heat with a solid changeup and a sweepy slider. Even with high-octane stuff, Moreno has a solid idea of how to locate his stuff, and between Bradenton and Double-A Altoona he has a 2.35 ERA and a 59-to-7 strikeout-to-walk ratio in 38 1/3 innings. About the only negative that’s come this season for Moreno was when the Pirates suspended and demoted him back to Bradenton last month for unprofessional conduct.
yea that’s what i found on him too. exactly what you want in a wildcard really. cayones seems to have a little less to work with, but impressive discipline for a 19 y/o
I think most “real” fans and most of his teammates appreciate the fact that he gives it his all and didn’t allow his struggles to bleed over into his attitude. he’s usually the first one to congratulate someone when they do something positive on the team.
As Michael Kay says…..SEE YA
One of the only nice things about the baseball offseason is not having to hear Michael Kay’s voice. And now you’ve put it in my head. Thanks.
Why not get in the spirit with pitchers and catchers reporting tomorrow. Baseball’s around the corner.
Well there are worse ones…..especially that old guy (and woman) calling Yankee baseball on 880 AM.
What you mean the guy who sounds like he’s wobbling his head back back and forth when he says they won?
THAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Yankkes win!
That’s about the only good thing I like to hear from him.
His Hr calls are at least entertaining. A-bomb from a-rod, dont cha know cano, a tex message, Its kinda like Family guy you enjoy it cause its so dumb you have to laugh.
Your right….the king of awful Joe Buck (Throws up a little in mouth).
There it goes…. SEE YA!
Thanks for game 2 of the 2009 WS.
booooooooooo
Geeze. Even though he is AJ Burnett, he made the Pirates pitching staff better.
exactly. Yankees fans keep forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that Burnett will enter a significantly weaker division in a league where there aren’t any DHs. also, the NL Central doesn’t have Pujols and Fielder anymore, two of the most notable “Pirate killers” in the MLB. of course there are others still there, but none with as much impact against the Pirates than Pujols and Fielder.
No we aren’t forgetting that. But I assure you we could care less how he does in Pittsburgh. His numbers in Pittsburgh, no matter how good or average they may be, were not going to match his numbers in NY.
There is no way anone can say getting rid of this guy Doesn’t help the Yankees.
6.5 M a year is reasonable for Burnett. it all comes down to the minor leaguers.
Addition by subtraction easily makes the Yankees the winner in this trade. The prospects of any level are just a bonus, hopefully they pan out!
paying a player $10M a year to play for another team = winning
Even though the Yankees are paying a ton for this deal to happen, they are, and I really hate to say this, full of win this offseason from a pitching standpoint.
come playoff time, yes. sabathia-kuroda-pineda is a solid top 3 – especially if pineda steps forward this season
The AL powers have all stepped their games up on the SP front. Next years playoffs could be fun to watch.
interesting to rank
angels
rays
tigers
yankees
rangers
red sox
almost reverse the list for offenses, except pujols bumps the angels a bit
That’s a good order I’d say.
Not that it really matters but the Red Sox scored the most runs in baseball last year and led in pretty much every offensive category across the board. Not to mention Crawford’s awful season and Youkilis and his injury woes. Id say they are top 3 this year if anything…
…reversing the list would put them on top
Wait so why are they in reverse? Im so confused…lol
Not that it really matters but the Red Sox scored the most runs in baseball last year and led in pretty much every offensive category across the board. Not to mention Crawford’s awful season and Youkilis and his injury woes. Id say they are top 3 this year if anything…
Does not compute. Cubs are paying Zambrano about 16MM to play for the Marlins.
Cubs≠Winning.
It seems to me that notsureifsrs wanted to put a ? after winning, that’s just what it looks like to me, “paying a player $10M a year to play for another team = winning?” (questioning Dolph Ziggler’s post)
Hmm, you could be right there.
Paying $10M a year for possibly another 5-10 wins and one less headcase = winning.
Losing the whipped cream pie celebration = losing. :/
Burnett was not good, but he wasn’t a -5/-10 win pitcher. That’s ridiculous.
-C
You’re too hard on yourself. That comment was at least a C+.
That’s definitely true. However let me put it this way. Assuming Garcia is in the rotation, the Yankees replace Burnett and Colon with Kuroda and Pineda. What do you think is worth more of the money, Burnett (16.5 million and 2 million Colon. Yes I know he’s with the A’s but let’s just say he would have got the same deal) or Kuroda and Pineda (Kuroda, 10 mil, the additional 10 mil the Yankees are paying Burnett, and Pineda at minimum wage)
So again. Would you take Burnett and Colon for $18.5 million or would you take Kuroda and Pineda for $20+ million?
“are the yankees better off now” and “did the yankees win this trade” are not the same question. they are better off and they did not win the trade
I don’t call it a win or lose trade. They did what they had to do and got rid of a bad player but are still paying the price. I will say it’s a decent trade for PIttsburgh, but in the end it’s kind of silly when an average pitchr makes up about 1/6th of your team’s payroll.
Again I will say it’s a good trade for Pittsburgh but the Yankees got what they expected. It’s not that the trade was bad, it’s that the contract was bad. Those are 2 different stories. As a Yankee fan, I am glad they got rid of him and are saving him some money. If your team got rid of Lackey for about the same price, would you be pleased too?
“who won the trade” is typically a question of who got more value
the pirates likely got a 2.5 WAR pitcher for $6.5M per year (5 WAR for $13M) + wildcard prospects
the yankees got two wildcard prospects for $20M and a 2 years of a 1.5 WAR pitcher
the funny part of it is that losing this trade makes them a better team in 2012. that tells you how bad burnett’s contract was
i actually like the choices the yanks made in terms of players coming back. as wildcards go, they seem pretty good
“the funny part of it is that losing this trade makes them a better team in 2012. that tells you how bad burnett’s contract was”
And this is why I’m happy about it and it says it all.
How would you compare this with the Zambrano trade?
yankees come out way ahead compared to that mess
Giants won the Superbowl, the Knicks are playing Linsane (sorry couldn’t help it), the Rangers have the best record in the NHL, and the Yankees have a solid team that should win their division. Its a nice time to be a New yorker
Addition by subtraction clearly makes the Yankees the winner of this trade. With the two prospects to boot hopefully they pan out. Thanks for the memories AJ both good and bad.
those prospects will most likely be A-ballers. don’t expect much. the big reason the Yankees did this was to get salary relief. i think if the Pirates paid about $15M, they wouldn’t have to send prospects to the Yankees.
Diego Moreno is a AA player. High K/Low BB pitcher. Downside I see by his minor league numbers is that he gives up a lot of hits. Better than I expected. Now we await on the 2nd player.
He is a little old for A+ ball though, no? He is going to be 26 in July and he hasn’t been able to stick at AA.
Oh don’t get me wrong I’m not bragging about him or anything. And I’d be shocked to see him in a uniform anytime soon. I’m just saying he’s a better player than what I would have expected.
Thanks for laying the ground work for a future John Lackey trade.
Burnett was healthy all this time and was not as bad as Lackey believe it or not.
he wasn’t as bad as lackey was last year. lackey was fine in 2010
having said that, they aren’t similar pitchers. burnett still has great stuff whereas lackey has never really had that. he’s staying in boston
Fine as in healthy or fine as in production? (or both)?
And Lackey in 2010 was about average, but certainly better than Burnett.
In 2011, it wasn’t about who was better, it was about who was worse lol
right. lackey’s 2010 was similar to burnett’s 2009. they didn’t earn their salaries, but they weren’t disasters yet
burnett is still interesting to other teams at $13M though because of his stuff. lackey hasn’t had dominant stuff for years now. he needs stems cells and possibly a lobotomy
Kudos to the Angels for cutting bait at just the right time…
yup. what did they offer him, 4/60? that’d be a lot easier to swallow
I doubt it’ll be that cheap to do the same for Lackey. In fact, I think it’s going to be quite more costly. I can only imagine how much it would cost to invent a time machine, and then how much it would cost to hire someone to use that time machine to go back and stop that signing from happening.
Burnett >> Lackey.
Lackey has a good chance to come back and repeat his disappointing-but-still-well-above-average 2010. And Boston will exercise his option next year, cutting his annual luxury tax hit by a third for 2013 and 2014.
The only time it would make financial sense to trade him is in 2015, when he’ll be making only $500K but have a luxury tax hit of over $10MM, which won’t matter to 90% of teams but does to Boston. This is similar to Marco Scutaro’s situation this offseason, where his luxury tax hit was more than his salary.
This trade isn’t a win for the Yankees-it’s an admission of failure. It’s not an awful trade in the sense that they don’t have to deal with who clogs up the back end of the rotation, and they free up some cash, but it’s not a cause for celebration. It also makes it a little bit more possible for the Yankees to have a shot at getting under the threshold next year-it’s still highly unlikely, but you never know.
Not a cause for celebration? Every fifth day of my life just got a little easier to tolerate.
That’s pretty sad if your life is intolerable because of a baseball game. But I totally understand 🙂
Hey at least we no longer have to speculate which inning will be THE inning for Burnott.
” This trade isn’t a win for the Yankees-it’s an admission of failure.”
I take it you didn’t have the unfortunate task of watching A.J. Burnett toe the rubber every 5th day in pinstripes.
Pure torture as a Yankees fan, good riddance I say.
No doubt he will pitch better in Pittsburgh, but no surprise given he has 0 expectations or pressure to succeed.
Unlike the bubble guts moments he had in New York that led to him soiling himself quite frequently.
That we were able to get rid of him for very close to half his remaining salary is great news. After all its not like he was going to be starting for the Yankees over CC, Pineda, Nova, Kuroda or Hughes/Garcia.
There is no such thing as clogging up the back end of the rotation, by the time you reach that point of most teams rotation its pretty much pointless.
Not like a #5 starter is very important, even on good teams.
I actually just stopped watching Burnett’s starts – I would check the score on my phone about 45 minutes – an hour into the game. If they weren’t 4-5 runs down by the 3rd, I’d flip it on. 🙂
LOL exactly, by then the Yankees would be in a big deficit and he is pulled from the game by Joe Girardi.
joe trys to let his pitchers get out of jams which in burnetts case they wait until he gives up 6 or 7 runs before bringing him out.
I am a Yankee fan. I’m just a realist. For whatever reason. AJ joins Whitson and Pavano (I cringe just typing the name) and Vazquez and a bunch of others who just don’t seem to be able to pitch consistently well under this harsh a spotlight.
Failure is relative. I think we’ve all gotten way too used to idea that the Yankees can afford to throw big money at players who don’t have much chance of working out.
The Dodgers could too, if they weren’t busy paying for divorce settlements and lawyers.
The “Dodgers” aren’t playing for that, but maybe you’ve heard, that sad episode is at an end. Still, I hope the new ownership doesn’t take the Yankees lesson the wrong way.
Thank you for regarding the Pirates rotation optimistically, but I think the AL central is a little worse since the Tigers are really the only strong contender in that division.
If they trade Burnett and sign Chavez and Ibanez, that puts them at ABOUT $203MM for the season, with an additional $15MM or so paid in luxury tax.
This offseason, Yankees are the highest spending team in all MLB teams. CC contract rework +30M, Huroda +10M, AJ write-off + 20M. so far they have committed over 50M. which is higher than the annual committment made by Angels and Tigers..
I’ll be the first to criticize the Yankees’ free-spending ways, but this is simply incorrect. They had already committed that money to A.J.; they actually lowered their annual commitment to him by $5MM.
If you want to count Sabathia as a new commitment, they committed $23MM for this year for him and $10MM for Kuroda, minus the $5MM they saved on Burnett. That’s $28MM, which is, okay, that’s TECHNICALLY more than the $25.5MM the Angels will be paying their new commitments (Wilson, Pujols, and Iannetta), but only because the Angels have heavily backloaded those first two deals.
In actuality, the Angels have committed an extra $321.3MM this offseason, divided among those three deals, while the Yankees have “only” committed an extra $127MM, divided among their three deals.
The Yankees have the highest payroll in baseball, and by a lot, but they were far from the biggest spenders this offseason. They blew their wad in the ’07-’08 and ’09-’10 offseasons. 2011-2012 belongs to the Marlins, Tigers, and Angels.
When you sell your investment before its maturity, you have to report the total loss the year you sold.
And if players were investments with measurable financial losses and gains, and the Yankees were reporting their federal taxes to the IRS, then that would be a good analogy.
The truth is that the Burnett deal SAVES THEM MONEY. It doesn’t count as a financial commitment for this offseason. In fact, it’s the opposite.
Again, criticize the Yankees’ spending all you want. I’ll join in. Just get your facts straight before you do. They’re the highest spending team in baseball for this year, and for the last decade, and even more than you might think, since they’re paying luxury tax on all that. But they haven’t committed the most money this offseason, not by a longshot.
’08-’09 was a poor offseason for them, since Teixeira has declined, the opt-out they gave Sabathia is forcing them to commit to his mid-30s when no one else was going to give him 8-9 years, and Burnett has been a financial disappointment. But ’11-’12 has been an excellent (and even financially smart) offseason for them.
”
Again, criticize the Yankees’ spending all you want. I’ll join in.”
Aren’t you a Sox fan? (Forgive me if I’m mistaken, I had a chat with a Sox fan on another post and his name looked like yours, so maybe it was you)
But you don’t count a one-time write off as what you call an “annual commitment”.
The incremental commitment made by the Yankees is minimal. It was only $2 million per year to C.C. and just a little over $2 million per year to Kuroda when you net out the $6.75 million per year savings on Burnett and the $900,000 per year to Colon who Kuroda effectively replaced.
So they added all of $4.35 million per year in “annual commitment” by my calculation.
Finally
I thought Charlie Morton was supposed to start the season on the DL due to recovering from surgery? No?
i read somewhere that they don’t expect him back until March or April so i’m guessing you’re right.
If that is the case, can they put Morton on the DL (not sure what the rules are)? Or do they still have to clear a space off of the 40-man roster to place A.J. If they do, who do you get rid of? Looking at the players on there, the Pirates will lose a good prospect as a result of this trade.
A timer put on the popcorn and Burnett you will not
badum-tsh!
The Pirates got screwed on this deal…The Yankees wanted to get rid of Burnett and even NEEDED to get rid of him…wow.
they got screwed? i think if they give up REAL prospects, they would have been screwed. but i don’t see them giving up anyone worth losing sleep over. whether you know it or not, the NL Central is SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than the AL East, especially with Pujols and Fielder gone. couple that with the fact that NL teams don’t use DHs and you can likely see Burnett’s production improve, maybe not greatly, but it should still improve.
also, the Yankees are paying more than the Pirates will for Burnett, so how did the Pirates get screwed again?
The Pirates weren’t going to ever place Diego in anything other than an Altoona jersey. I think he has better stuff than that and you’ll probably see him in the majors within the next two years. Nice pick Yankees. I can’t wait to see the other pick.
As for A.J., the Pirates despirately needed someone who can pitch around 200 innings a year….even if the ERA is high. Midway through the year, the Pirates needed to relieve the bullpen and a starter who can last deep into the game will help. So a nice match up. A.J. will be a winner this year.
Given what the Pirates are seeking in their rotation, innings, innings, innings, Burnett actually fits the bill.
The Pirates were on a nice run last season but then tailspinned as attention started to focus on them competing for the division, then they fell right off the pace.
In that division this season they might actually be able to compete if they hit the baseball.
I agree…there bullpen also started running out of steam. I questioned the frequency at Hurdle using his relievers too. There was also a too little, too late factor with the acquisitions of Grilli, Lee, and Ludwick. If they want to compete, they have to compete all 162 games each year.
Moreno’s 25. if he ever sees the majors, it will most likely be in similar fashion to how Garrett Jones made it to the majors. but that’s a stretch. if he’s not in AAA now, he’s probably going to struggle getting to the majors while in his prime.
What happened to those two Indian prospects signed by Pirates…would be better than these two..
I realize you probably aren’t seriously asking – but figured I’d answer anyway.
Dinesh Patel threw 7 innings in the Gulf Coast League in 2010 and got roughed up and then released.
Rinku Singh is still in the Pirates organization and has had a little bit of success so far. He actually made it up to the South Atlantic League last year and had a 3.18 ERA over 17 innings. He also pitched in the Australian Winter League during the offseason and made the All Star team there. Kind of a cool story for a guy that had never picked up a baseball before.
I realize you probably aren’t seriously asking – but figured I’d answer anyway.
Dinesh Patel threw 7 innings in the Gulf Coast League in 2010 and got roughed up and then released.
Rinku Singh is still in the Pirates organization and has had a little bit of success so far. He actually made it up to the South Atlantic League last year and had a 3.18 ERA over 17 innings. He also pitched in the Australian Winter League during the offseason and made the All Star team there. Kind of a cool story for a guy that had never picked up a baseball before.
Probably nothing more than a bullpen guy for Diego. Lots of K’s and very few BB’s but he gives up a lot of hits. Anyway we shall see. Again I did not expect anything big at all. Diego isn’t a big name, but based on some key stats he doesn’t seem like a scrub.
Exactly how did the Pirates get screwed might I ask.
They were trying to get veteran starters to go there and guys didn’t want to go.
They made a move for someone like Burnett who just couldn’t hack it in NYC.
Lets be blunt the NL Central is nothing like the AL East in terms of the hitting.
Even the last place Orioles in the AL East scored 700 runs last season.
In the NL Central Milwaukee, St. Louis and Cincinnati scored 700+ runs
Both are weaker this season with Pujols and Fielder gone from the division.
Burnett’s numbers will get better by mere fact of pitching in a weaker division and the NL sans DH, added to the fact he now has no pressure to succeed, no expectations about World Series title or bust unlike with the Yankees.
Look at Javiers Vazquez looked like a stud in the NL and wet himself when he pitched for the Yankees.
Some guys are scared to play in New York, literally.
Both teams got what they wanted. Burnett could go either way, he’s got great stuff and is pitching in an easier division now, but he is 35yo…Yanks overpaid for him big-time but did get a lot of innings and a few very clutch playoff performances, which for a team like the Yanks is more important than a sparkling in-season ERA and WHIP.
They didn’t get screwed. It’s actually a good deal for both sides. Yankee fans are just a little over-sensitive and have to try to rationalize everything into a huge win.
I don’t see Yankee fans rationalizing this into a huge win. I just think they’re relieved not to have to watch him pitch.
I think the Pirates have picked the Yankees’ pockets twice before and I think they come out the winner here again.
I have a feeling Burnett is gonna be like Vasquez and put up some pretty sick numbers in the NL. Once he moved back to the NL he had some pretty good years and led the NL in l’s
Best thing for both teams. I think AJ will do well with the Pirates. Dont forget NY is a very hard place to play at especially pitch. Burnett would always get frazzled once he had a few bad batters in a row, usually around in 3,4,or5 inning and when the boo birds started it was all over for him. U either thrive or don’t surive in NY. Thank you Pittsburgh!
Pirates’ season seemed to turn after that horrendous ump call gave that game to the Braves
Exicardo Cayones appears to be the other player. I’m pretty up to speed on the Bucs minor league system and I never heard of the guy.
He was one of the first big international signings the Pirates made after Dave Littlefield was fired. They signed him for $400K, which at the time was the highest bonus the Pirates had ever given to an international free agent. That’s pretty much where the excitement ended with him though. he just hasn’t been able to move up in the system at all. He finally made it up to the NY-Penn league last year and hit .063 with a .252 OPS. Only 19 years old still.
Diego Moreno will be a very good RP for the New York Yankees, very underrated prospect who can chuck. Cayones was overhyped and has struggled for the past 2 years.
Good fastball I heard – what else is there to know about Moreno?
Dominant numbers in early years at all level of A ball but since then he has been promoted and demoted a lot. Had problems with rotator cuff. 26 years old as well
Moreno and Cayones are probably a little more than I was expecting the Pirates to give up, but still not anything they will really miss. Moreno was a bit of a disappointment last year and was left unprotected in the Rule 5 draft. Don’t think the Pirates really considered him a part of their future.
I hope he wins 20 games for the Pirates!
I hope he wins 20 games for the Pirates!
They still won’t make the playoffs.
The Pirates haven’t had a winning season in 18 years. I don’t think making the playoffs is the first goal here. Break .500 this year, and then see what the future holds.
True. I hope they do and do get in the playoffs eventually. Hopefully Huntington is the guy to turn this entire franchise around.
And a Cy Young award would be pretty nice as well!!!!
Too bad they don’t play the Yankees. A shut out could have been nice, LOL
And a Cy Young award would be pretty nice as well!!!!
good trade for the bucs. winning season here we come!
Who cares what prospects the Yankees got as part of the deal. The Yankees got $13MM in salary relief and freed up a roster spot for either Chavez or the DH likely Ibanez.
Chavez and Ibanez excite you? After sending an arm and 20 mil away to fix a blunder. Ok.
This. Everyone should stay far away from Ibanez.
whats a blunder? yankees DH? its not a blunder, they could easily get Chavez for a million…and they have andrew jones… btw they didnt send burnett away to fix the DH position they did so to try to keep their payroll lower then it was.
Actually, they did it so they wouldn’t have to pay a guy over $16MM a year to pitch out of the bullpen.
Chavez and the DH be it Ibanez or someone else are pieces. What excites me is that AJ Burnett is gone. No more watching him implode. The way I see it getting $13MM for Burnett means Cashman signed Kuroda for basically nothing. The 2 pitchers just changed spots. And that is a very good think to my mind.
Would you rather keep the mistake?
Hard to believe AJ Burnett is now considered valuable for his durability. He’s really turned that part of his career around, at least.
Hard to believe that Cashman is getting any praise for this one…isn’t that like congratulating the guy who put out the fire only after the house is nearly burned to the ground, when he was the same guy who started it? Speaking of fires, I wonder what putting $20 Million dollars in a burning dumpster smells like?
I could see that analogy being accurate if AJ Burnett was injured most years and didn’t have a great World Series performance/ring to his name. The truth is, AJ just is not a NY kind of guy and couldn’t thrive in this environment. I couldn’t blame the guy for chasing the money, heck, I would have signed too. Did Cash make a mistake in signing AJ to that contract in hindsight…yes. But the greater travesty would have been holding onto AJ for those two additional years knowing he is not performing.
So, what you are saying is that there is no chance that AJ could return to previous form? Meaning, back to the guy they “thought” they were getting when they signed him? Fact is, your Yankees are admitting failure, and have quit on this player. Admitting that they made a mistake in the first place to sign him, admitting that they cannot coach him well enough to cure whatever mechanical flaws that he has that causes him to get into trouble, and admitting that they cannot create a positive workplace environment where the fans don’t effect his mental approach to the game. This should be viewed as a complete organizational failure that they are telling this guy, “nice knowing you, but we’d rather pay somebody else to have you pitch for THEM”. That’s failure, and it’s just the latest example of colossally bad moves (Pavano, et al) that just gets chalked up to: “He just can’t handle New York”, and/or “oh well, it’s only money, there’s plenty more where that went”… The Yankees quit on him, and it won’t be the last time this happens.
So when exactly does it become the failure of the player? That doesn’t seem accurate to me as it takes two to tango. You perform, get the contract and then don’t. To me, it looks like AJ quit on himself and wasn’t able to pitch the way he should have. I don’t see how ridiculing Cashman seems like the logical response. Was it a bad contract, yes, but is it as bad as people made it out to be? I don’t believe so.
Not sure where I mentioned AJ not returning to form for the Pirates or where that comes from?
“But the greater travesty would have been holding onto AJ for those two additional years knowing he is not performing.” I interpreted that statement of yours as meaning that he would NOT get any better in the remaining 2 years of his contract. If nothing else, Burnett was durable, which should have been appreciated more than it seems that it is. So, he at least did all that he could to attempt to earn the over-priced contract that was given him. AJ didn’t quit if he took the ball each time he was asked and was willing and able to continue to fullfill his contract by properly preparing to compete, agree that the results were not ideal, but it wasn’t from a lack of effort. The reason I tend to blame the Management more than the player in this instance is because they are the ones pulling the rip cord. It’s their call, obviously, but this is a poor precedent (or trend) that is being set/followed, which I disagree with in practice, that’s all. And regardless of whether or not you and I agree or disagree, thanks for a cordial conversation, which is often hard to find with a Yankee fan.
it’s easy for people to bash this signing 3 years later but the ONLY issue any of us had, or should I say, question marks, was whether he would stay healthy, not if he could perform.
From 2006-2008 (the years with the Jays) AJ had..
minimum of 300 IP
9 K/9 (4th in the AL), 51 %GB, 3.92 ERA (16th in AL ), 3.82 FIP (11th in AL ), 3.56 xFIP (5th in AL), WAR (11th in AL).
This deal went wrong for all the wrong reasons but Cashman did the right thing by signing him and did the right thing in moving on knowing it didn’t work. The fact that he’s developed and traded for cheap in-house solutions like Nova, Hughes and Pineda alows him to “sort of”, at least by Yankee standards, offset some of the costs.
Haha awesome point
The yanks should have gotten Lambo from Altoona. A few weeks with Kevin Long and he would be worth the trade
this is a great move for the Pirates. they can’t get players to take their money, so its nice they’re making alternative moves rather than crying about it. they didn’t give up any major prospects. also Burnett still has great stuff and will be throwing in the NL Central in Pittsburg. he’ll put together a nice season and the Pirates may surprise some people this year.
Dear AJ,
While others will knock you and celebrate your dismissal because of your on-field “suckage” I would like to say thanks for 2009 and thanks for adding to the change in atmosphere and helping to keep things loose OFF the field. The Yanks, for too long, were a very stuffy business first and last team. You’re cream pies brought levity to NYS and, in my opinion, helped relax guys like Arod who probably took themselves too seriously. Thanks and good luck in life. Keep the FB low and your chin high.
Yanks fans everywhere.
Well said – The fact is, AJ was a big part of lightening up the atmosphere in the Yankees locker room. Without him, we don’t have the 2009 Championship either.
I don’t think it’s a bad move, but some respect must be paid for how he did help the team.
lol please dont call them creampies hahahah. but ya whos gonna be the pie man now?! i suspect swisher
wait… why did the Pirates do this again?
Easy answer……….Because they are the Pirates
Dueces, AJ!
The Pirates are actually saving money by paying $5mil the first year and 8mil the second. Because of the time value of money the Pirates can use the money they save this year and get interest. Also, the $8mil they will pay next year will not be worth as much because of inflation
The Bucco’s are on there way to competing in the NL Central!!! If the Pirates could find a 1B with some power I feel they can compete.SP Burnett- He will play good with less pressure and a pitchers park.SP Morton- Has the stuff to be an ace when head is right.SP Bedard- Better than Maholm who has been our best pitcher…. SP Mcdonald- If he ever figures out how to go 6 innings without 100+ pitches lookout.SP Correia- Not bad 5th starterSP Karstens- He just gets the job done no matter how many times they try to shove him in the bullpen.If Alvarez hits this year the Pirates will compete with the Reds for the Central. Go Bucs
You are correct about Alvarez, if he puts up a 270/350/490 or better it would completely change their lineup and give them a shot, but he is such a massive “IF”.
He came early for spring training to take some BP, and apparently he lost a lot of weight this offseason. That’s probably why he didn’t choose to go to Winter League, so he could condition himself better. Obviously losing weight isn’t gonna make you hit balls better but maybe it’s what he needed
You are correct about Alvarez, if he puts up a 270/350/490 or better it would completely change their lineup and give them a shot, but he is such a massive “IF”.
how about a 500. record first
Burnett will have his best year ever
A healthy Burnett and Bedard could make the Pirates a contender in the NL Central in 2012.
Hell yeah, all the Pirates had to give up to get Burnett is a guy who is clearly made up (Exicardo Cayones) and literally the Latin James Brown (Diego Moreno).
Still can’t believe Pittsburgh made this trade. Why didn’t they pony up with the Rays and grab Niermann and/or Davis, Cobb? Not sure A.J. will be the plug Pittsburgh needs to stop endless years of futility. Hope it works out.
A.J. Burnett will benefit big time in returning to the National League as I see it. And this year, the NL Central will be an absolute crapshoot, especially with Ryan Braun likely out for the first 50 games.
My predction now is for the Cards to win that division.
Poetic justice….. Burnett wins 20 for the Pirates…..Yankees pay.
Burnett winning 20 games in the NL Central would mean nothing to NY. They’re actually doing him a favor and upping his value for his next contract wherever he goes. 20 wins in the NL Central = 12 in the AL East
First place AL East means watching second place NL Central team win 2011 World Series.
Yeah that sure happens all the time and was no fluke…go back 20 years and see how many AL East teams have won it all vs. NL Central…
Tell me again about the brilliance of the Yankees front office. They do this over and over again, and people still defend them.
Yeah, BAD BIG MARKET TEAMS are ruining baseball!!!
I’m sarcastic by the way.
Over and over again…like what players? Burnett and…?
Carl Pavano
Kei Igawa
Hideki Irabu
Jaret Wright
Kevin Brown
Kenny Rogers
Mr Houston Last-ro, how’s Carlos Lee and his $19 mil/year allowance working for your team?
It’s terrible. The Astros previous front office was worse than anything that the Yankees have put together in my memory. That really isn’t the point, though. I keep explaining this.
Houston you really don’t get it do you? The more money you have….the more risks you can take, and the more magnified those expensive risks look when they fail. For every Carl Pavano and Kei Igawa…….there’s a Curtis Granderson trade.
Lol. K.
Theo put a more talented team on the field with less money. This is where Yankee fans talk about all of their irrelevant championships from the ’20s.
Theo did a great job, props to him. And where exactly are Yankee fans referencing titles from the 20’s?
Its amazing that he would say that while he brings up two failed yankee signings in the 90s
Based on what did theo put more talent on the field than the yankees did, do teams with the most talent finish in third two years in row? Is that something new? But yes theo is one of the best gms in the gm the same of course goes for cashman…
The Yankees won 3 WS in the ’20s and 7 since the Astros have been established 😀
Just for id really love just love for you to name the gms better than cashman
friedman, anthopolous, beane, wren, beinfest off the top of my head
Houston you really don’t get it do you? The more money you have….the more risks you can take, and the more magnified those expensive risks look when they fail. For every Carl Pavano and Kei Igawa…….there’s a Curtis Granderson trade.
It’s terrible. The Astros previous front office was worse than anything that the Yankees have put together in my memory. That really isn’t the point, though. I keep explaining this.
Rogers and irabu, so many bad moves you had to go back a decade… Not to mention igawa wasnt expensive and that pavano would have been a good move if he was healthy i’m sorry cash cant predict the future.
Did you at all notice that they are all pitchers? The position players are a seperate conversation. We could also talk about the bullpen arms that he has acquired at the expense of legitimate relievers.
Did you notice wright and igawa are the only legitimate names?
Oh no, you have a long history of missing on pitchers.
And you named 2 of them…
Did you notice wright and igawa are the only legitimate names?
Theo developed clay and bucholz and kennedy is better than both those players. And then theo got bp arms which is essentially what cashman did.
Rogers and irabu, so many bad moves you had to go back a decade… Not to mention igawa wasnt expensive and that pavano would have been a good move if he was healthy i’m sorry cash cant predict the future.
Carl Pavano – Nobody could have guessed he would be an injury magnet.
Kei Igawa – OK, bad move. Bad knee jerk response to Dice-K.
Hideki Irabu – OK, bad move.
Jaret Wright – No other FA signing that year panned out well either, thin FA SP class besides Pedro.
Kevin Brown – Technically they absorbed Brown, they didn’t sign him themselves. Still a desperate move though.
Kenny Rogers – Bad move.
So that is three bad SP signings in a pretty large sample period. The same could be said for the Red Sox and genius Theo.
Assessing mechanics is one way to avoid signing a guy with an injury history. Pavano had elbow problems, right? That’s not completely out of the hands of the front office. As for the length of the list, it could have easily been longer. It’s weird how people refuse to see the trend here.
If it could be longer make it longer, pavano didnt have a mechainical problem he had about 10 different injury as yankee…. And agian good job going back ten yrs to include rogers it got a good chuckle out of me.
You have no expertise on anything related to baseball as far as I can tell. You’ve gone as far as to say that Cashman was a good GM. Forgive me for not trusting your assessment of his mechanics.
Right coming from the guy that said anyone can draft and kennedy doesnt count as a homegrown yankee because he was traded. Not to mention your assessment of Barnes as a player the yankees should be interested in. Face it this isnt your game. Their was absolutly nothing that would’ve suggested that pavano would be that hurt and considering the elbow was the least of his problems it was highly irrelevant comment. Not to mention theo the genius outbid the yankees for pavano…
And if you werent busy making things up the elbow problem came after, his shoulder and rib problem nothing on any tape would of told them he’d get those injuries.
LOL. K. I’m not the one that used Aceves and Tyler Clippard as an indication that the Yankees were good at developing pitching; Clint BarMes WOULD have been a better option at shortstop; assessing mechanics is an important part of signing players; the Yankees do spend money recklessly; drafting does involve a lot of luck – that’s just a fact; outbidding someone is not the same thing as signing them; one move does not make or break a GM – consistent patterns do; Theo was a brilliant GM; Brian Cashman isn’t fit to be his assistant. I don’t know what else to tell you, other than to say that you’re wrong about a lot of things.
Of corse i siad those to player in reference to a bunch of othe player but whatever as long as you keep saying barnes is good option at short ill keep talking to you because quite frankly its entertianing. And being that epstein wanted pavano, and otbid cashma for him probably means their wasnt anything on any tape.
Aside from 2009, Jeter hasn’t put up a 4.0 WAR season since 2006. He’s thirty-seven now, and he couldn’t salvage a 3.0 WAR season despite having all the energy from the milestone chasing. His defense has always been terrible, and it’s just getting worse. His isolated power probably won’t break .100, and Bill James is putting him at a .330ish wOBA. That isn’t enough to make up for his lack of range in the field. He is going to hurt the Yankees this season. The decline in base running is probably related to that fact that he doesn’t accelerate as well anymore, which we can see in his decreasing range, and the lack in power. Conversely Clint Barmes would at least be average. I’m done trying to explain baseball to you. You didn’t understand how to use peripherals for pitchers, and you don’t understand how to analyze position players.
Besides for last year the 32 yr old barmes has never posted a war of over 2. Next yr hell be 33 and will not put up a better war than jeter. You cant explain a gm you know nothing about, and btw moving a bad defender to 3rd wouldnt make him a good one, it took arod a whole yr to learn yet you think youre smarter than cashman
Aside from 2009, Jeter hasn’t put up a 4.0 WAR season since 2006. He’s thirty-seven now, and he couldn’t salvage a 3.0 WAR season despite having all the energy from the milestone chasing. His defense has always been terrible, and it’s just getting worse. His isolated power probably won’t break .100, and Bill James is putting him at a .330ish wOBA. That isn’t enough to make up for his lack of range in the field. He is going to hurt the Yankees this season. The decline in base running is probably related to that fact that he doesn’t accelerate as well anymore, which we can see in his decreasing range, and the lack in power. Conversely Clint Barmes would at least be average. I’m done trying to explain baseball to you. You didn’t understand how to use peripherals for pitchers, and you don’t understand how to analyze position players.
And if you werent busy making things up the elbow problem came after, his shoulder and rib problem nothing on any tape would of told them he’d get those injuries.
You keep saying epstein has an eye for pitching yet where are all these pitchers he developed? Even if you wanted to add lester the list is pretty small, with both teams producing a frontline starter and then cashman just dominating from there.
Mike Mussina, David Wells, CC Sabathia, Roger Clemens (trade), David Cone. forgot about those didnt you?
Dice k,
Clement
Pineiro
Penny
Smoltz
Pavano, as if epstein got his was he would be there.
I guess that means theo cant evaluate pitchers either of course this isnt a smart way to look at things, hope you see this now but doubt. Also feel free to name all the pitchers theo developed since he becamme the gm ill let you list masterson even though he found success elsewhere a concept you seem to be against.
Jon Lester
Clay Buchholz
Daniel Bard
Jonathan Paplebon
That’s 40% of their rotation, and the two most important relievers on their roster from last season.
And that list is terrible. Those are a bunch of players that Theo brought in attempting to add depth to the rotation. They weren’t guys who would were going to be the number one-two starters, like many of the Yankees I listed. Lack and Diasuke are the only two who fit that, and Diasuke did have two good years for the Sox.
Again, the point with Barmes is that he would be able to field the position and put up a positive WAR. Jeter won’t be able to do that. If Barmes has a 2.0 WAR season, he will be better than Jeter. And the fact that Jeter would have to learn the position is on the Yankees front office too. He probably should have been there last season.
“They weren’t guys who would were going to be the number one-two starters, like many of the Yankees I listed.” Igawa wright, and even pavano were never supposed to be number one starters, brown was the number 4 starter when he was traded for. Dice k had one good season which was about the same as brown’s one good season, brown actually had the better fip and xfip. Clement cost the same as wright did and was the 3rd best starter on the 2005 team or maybe their #4. which is exactly what wright would have been, rj, moose and pavano being the first 3. Yet you named wright, igawa, brown anyway. So you’re not even playing by your own rules.
Not to mention epstein never drafted lester. And as thing stands cashman drafted/signed and developed, karstens, kennedy, nova, hughes, in the span that Epstein drafted and developed/signed masterson and clay bucholz who wasn’t even better than nova when healthy last year.
When i put joba’s 1.4 war it was unimportant part of the yankees but bard’s 1.8 was one the biggest part of their bp. Epstein may have developed the biggest name in papelbon, but cashman actually built an entire pen consisting of, melancon, robertson, clippard, aceves, and joba, and ramon ramierez. Robertson was second in the entire league in war for a reliever, and his high lob really doesnt matter as most of those runners were inherited, and had a k rate of 13.5 K/9. Even if he went down a little cashman clearly has done a much better job developing revilers than epstein had. And unless you for some reason want to count lester as someone he developed the same goes for actual starters.
Lol. K.
Aceves and Melancon are pitching for the sox this year, anx Cashman desrves credit for that? Tell me, what did he get for them? Isn’t that the point? Same with Clippard.
Lester wasn’t drafted by Theo, but they entered the organization around the same time. Theo supervised his development. That is 40% of the rotation.
And Joba is relevant because he was such a good example of how poorly the Yankees handle pitchers.
You didn’t talk about Robertson’s BABIP, or the HR/FB ratio.
Lol k
He only got lance berkman who played great for them in the postseason and down the stretch. Cashman is so good at developing bp arms that some can be expendable just because aceves and melacon arent good enough for the yankee pen doesnt mean they arent good. Theres a reason the sox went after melancon and aceves they knew they had talent, while the yankees didnt see the need to risk signing a player they could easily replace with yet another homegrown arm in noessi.
Who cares when lester arrived theo didnt draft him, the list of pitcherrs he developed and drafted is tiny next to the yankees list its like 4 players two of them being bp arms. One being masterson, the other being clay both of whom have similiar numbers as joba as a starter, and both of them are worse than kennedy.
Those are the facts you can spin them how you may, like im sure you will, just like clement wasnt a bad signing but wright was, and dice k had a few good years but brown didnt. And my favorite jobas 1.6 war means hes not that important but bard 1.8 war and all is an essentiall part of their pen.
How did my boy Lance do for you?
What did you get in return for Aceves?
What did you get in return for Clippard?
How much more valuable would Joba have been as a starter?
What is Nova going to do with more innings?
What about Robertson?
Are you looking forward to Betances as a bp arm?
What are your thoughts on the way Banuelos was handled last season?
You sure do seem to be all over developing relievers for other teams, I will give you that. What do you gain from that, though?
And Lester is a fine example. The Sox turned a good arm into a good starter. Like I said Theo developed 40% of their rotation from last season.
About an 800 ops for in the last month before doing well in the postseason, for a guy who while a good reliver for boston and in general would be the 5th best relover for the yankees. By not giving aceves a major league deal they allowed a better hector noessi to get his spot, so both moves worked out fine.joba could be more valuable as a starter so could bard if all of a sudden he excels as a starter i guess that means the red sox messed up right. Theo didnt draft lester no matter how many times you say that he is responsible for him being in the roatation. Even if betances were to be a bp arm that just be one more arm than theo drafted. Look at the league the amount of pitching talent cashman produced outweighs theo by quite a bit, not to mention that last year nova outperformed clay, and kennedy, outperformed lester. I gave you a chance to name all the pitcher. Theo developed you gave me 4 guys and that makes him a genius? Lol ok, even if you count lester the yankees produced more big league pitchers since cashman was given control over drafting, its funny you mention the possibility, that betances becomes a starter and not that guys like sickels and law think manuel banuelas will be a top of the rotation starter.
Its also funny that cashman also started last yr rotation with two homegrown starters huges got injured and clay got injured guess which gm had yhe depth to replace those injuries? Even if the yankees had to go to their own farm, noesi, phelps, warren and even mitchel are all better tHaN kyle weiland theos most ready pitching prospects.
So tell me again how is that tHeo the man who drafted two big league starters, in masterson and clay who has more ability than the man who drafted or signed 4 such starters in nova, kennedy and karstens, and hughes. The bullpen arms each developed is not even close and its kinda funny that you keep bringing up the fact the yankees are so good at making a bp they can trade away their surplus. Im sorry that they dont need aceves, but its only because they had noesi, and the reason they could trade noesi was because they had mitchell. This doesnt meanhes useless just that he wouldnt the yankees pen. But theos pen of consisting of guys like albers, and atchison is very makeable.
Drafting starters is less important than developing them. K? And developing good pitchers is only relevant when they contribute talent to your organization. Tell me about the ways that Clippard and Aceves did that.
Nova could be terrible next year, and Kennedy isn’t as good as Lester. Sorry.
Keith Law? You mean the guy saying that Appel isn’t a lock for the first pick, as if that wasn’t obvious?
Betances could be a starter, sure, but he won’t be. And Banuelos probably will be good, but they are messing with him. He didn’t need to be rushed like he was. He is talented enough that even the Yankees might not be able to keep him from being an effective starter.
Lol k, fine then take clippard and aceves off the list hey look cashman still developed more pitchers than theo. Drafting and scouting is the most important part its not like theo had a hand in what lester was actual doing lester arm and mentality were drafted for. Rushed a 100 innings in aa isnt being rushed… And making baseless claims like where betances will end up isnt actaully productive, besides it doesnt matter theo has to catch up with cashman not the other way around as i keep showing you while you ignore the ever so few names that he actually developed.
Im still waiting to here how the yankees list of pitchers is worse than that of bostons its probably be best if you just admitting you dont know what youre talking about already. Two back end starters and two relievers is not better than the group cashman assembled no one would argue that but you.
Whats clay going to do with more innings he has what a career high of 172 ? Ya thats alot more than novas ha… You keep saying theo developed forty percent of that rotation and i just keep laughing. I mean its not even something to brag were it true its not like that rotation outperformed the yankees rotation at any point of the yr and the best part is theo could have signed colon or garcia and avoided the collapse.
What about robertson? His 289 babip is unsustainable, really? Even if he did falter a bit hed still be better than bard.
Again. That is nonsense. Bard as a reliever is a much safer bet. He has a much larger sample size.
One more yr and a babib of 224 ya safe bet, so is robertson, at worse he performs one war worse and they become equals, not to mention someone in this convo already said 1.6 war isnt a big deal so i doubt 1.8 war is either.
A 1.8 WAR is nothing compared to what Joba should have been. You really don’t reason very well.
So when cashman fails he still suceeds? Thats pretty great… Either 1.8 is significant or it isnt stop trying to back track.
Sucess and failure are not dichotomous. He greatly reduced Joba’s WAR. This is not a hard concept.
Right but even with that said his failure equals epsteins Second biggest success, i would never say epstein failed with masterson and bard becuase their was as a starter could have been higher. Especially since joba isnt in the rotation because his shoulder may not be able to handle it, so assuming he could put up a higher war might actually be wrong.
The point here is that Cashman wastes more talent and money than any other GM in the game. K?
Nope but close the point is that he produces so much bo talent he can afford to trade some of his pieces. The only trade that was a mistake was clippard.aceves leaving, and the berkman trade were both good moves.
You have no idea what you’re saying. Getting nothing for Aceves is a crime. A good GM recognizes the talent they have. Cashman doesnt.
He had a fip of 4 and a dismal xfip ya big loss for some teams but the yankees already had enough bp depth and y waste it on a 4 fip. To further illustrate how bad your point is, corey wade was by far the better player last yr, and was let by friedman for nothing would i say this makes him a bad gm as wade should have been in their bp, no i wouldnt.
You argue that having a lot of relievers is a sign of a good GM, and then you say that it doesn’t matter when you let them go for nothing. Friedman messed up there, but he is still a MUCH better GM than Cashman.
Aceves is the only one he let go for nothing becausehe was hurt and didnt want a minor league, cashman knowing noesi is just as good didnt offer him the 2 million that theo did, its really not a difficult concept the yankees cant just keep all the succesful reliver they develop if they better option, im not sure how you still arent getting this.
Trade them. Relief pitchers are so overrated it isn’t even funny. Billy B made a killing trading relievers. Cash isn’t on that level, I know, but he’s been at it long enough, you would think he would learn something.
Beane just traded a top closer for for two low upside prospects, so ya he knows how to make a killing all right, your not going to trade an injured aceces for much as evident when the as traded an injury prone bailey.
Well, people are catching on. He could still get a b prospect or something. Anything is better than letting talent walk.
Also, in your other post, you called a pitcher Theo’s second biggest success. That’s not true. The position players that Theo puts on the field are easily better than the pitchers he puts on the field.
Anyway, I think it’s about time to agree to disagree. I will give you the fact that Cashman is slighly better than I give him credit for. He’s still on the poor side of average, though.
Looking forward to future arguments.
Berkman OPSed just above .700 as a Yankee during the regular season and .750 in the ALCS. He only got like 19 PAs during that postseason. Lol. You’re funny.
Thats morethan worth it for a guy that while good would be at best the 4th best yankee bp option.cmon all you have to do is look at all 4 guys theo actually drafted to know how weak your arguement i know you can do if you try hard enough
A .700 OPS hitter is nothing really important. And Melancon wasn’t the only player we got.
Nope you a utulity player too,
Neither of us know what Parades will be. There is only a mild correlation between being a highly acclaimed prospect and actual success at the ml level.
Pretty sure that if you’ve been doing a job like this for so long you will make mistakes. EX: Epstein signed Crawford, Lackey, and Dice-K Ken Williams missed Dunn and dealt solid players for a worthless Jake Peavy. Everyone makes mistakes and Cashman has made tons of great decisions as well.
Williams is terrible.
Theo missed on Lackey. Crawford could still have a nice run for the Sox.
At least now when he stinks, no one will care.
Here’s something that I don’t quite understand about all of the Burnett bashing from the Yankees fans…
In 27 of his 32 starts, he gave up 4 ER or less and 19 of those were 3 runs or less and in 13 starts, he gave up 2 ER or less. He got shellacked a couple of times that really blew up his ERA, but he doesn’t appear, going by the numbers to have been the pitcher that I’d sit around waiting to implode every start.
And for those thinking that Moreno is a diamond in the rough, he was a 25 year old A+ reliever that, when promoted to AA, got hammered and was subsequently demoted back to A+ ball (twice). With the Yankees lack of success in developing pitchers, I wouldn’t expect him to be making an appearance in NY at any time, let alone in the near future.
AJ will thrive with his new team. I could have been the sox and he would’ve thrived. Girardi butchered him into a #6 when he is a true #1. Good luck AJ. Pirates get #2 wild card this year.