Alex Anthopoulos hinted last night that some young Blue Jays drew trade interest this offseason, and Jeff Blair of the Globe and Mail has the details on some talks that never materialized. The Blue Jays and Mariners discussed Michael Pineda, but the Blue Jays balked when the Mariners wanted Brett Lawrie in return for the right-hander, according to Blair's sources.
Instead, the Yankees obtained Pineda for Jesus Montero last month and the Blue Jays held onto Lawrie. The 22-year-old British Columbia native made his MLB debut in 2011, posting a .293/.373/.580 line in 171 plate appearances. Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik selected Lawrie in the first round of the 2008 draft when he was Milwaukee's scouting director. Meanwhile, Pineda posted a 3.74 ERA with 9.1 K/9 and 2.9 BB/9 in 171 innings as a rookie last year.
Interesting.
Maybe that is why the blue jays did not get a young stud pitcher. Same reason they didn’t get Gio. You must trade something of value to get value back.
Unless you trade with the Cardinals
One of those silly teams that are always trying to compete instead of always trading for “potential” Yep, you showed us!
I sure did
Even taking out the “renals” that helped the Cardinals win a World Series the Cardinals still didn’t do too bad in that trade.
4 years of Rzep + 2 supplemental picks
for
3 years of Colby + 6 of P.J. Walters
I was not a fan of the trade at first and I actually like Rasmus. But to act like this trade is that lopsided is just being an AA fan boy.
For the sake of the trade I hope that Zep does become a great player and not just a LOOGY like he appears to be right now. The trade is lopsided in my opinion because the Blue Jays acquired a high-ceiling player in exchange for players who most likely wouldn’t amount to much in the AL East. I’ll take 3 years of Rasmus over 4 years of Zep (and the picks) every time
Why are you bringing kidneys into it?
Well the way you describe it, it is lopsided.
Rzep is NOT that good; just wait till he gets figured out by the hitters in the NL… (hahahahahaha)
Nevermind, Rzep will win a few Cy Youngs, if not, a Rolaids Relief award.
damn that’s dirty ;D
Cardinals are only interested in winning Championships???
This obviously made zero sense. If you really look at the big picture. The Cardinals traded Rasmus for a World Series ring. I make that trade any day of the week. You have to make deals when you think there is a chance to win a WS. The opportunity doesn’t come around a lot, “unless your the Cardinals”.
Ya… this may come back to bite them.
i doubt it…both will have good careers
Why? This isn’t NCAA basketball…Nobody’s going to take the flag away.
Who is to say the Jays didn’t offer value?
Lawrie is worth alot more than Montero. He plays a premium (really 2 premium) position and has had more success in the majors so far.
What other premium position does Lawrie play? Weren’t there questions about him sticking at 3B?
my guess is that lawrie is the only untouchable on the jays roster. they’ve been waiting for a canadian star for a long time. more lawrie jerseys have been sold in the past 12 months than any others. trade him and the fans would lose it…
“more lawrie jerseys have been sold in the past 12 months than any others.”
Are you sure of that? He did not even debut until August. I doubt they were making Brett Lawrie jerseys over 5 months ago . If you would have said the last 5 months I would have believed it more, but I just couldn’t picture Lawrie jerseys outselling Bautista jerseys the past year.
there were lawrie jerseys in the stands before he even made it to the bigs…i don’t know the exact numbers, but i can tell you you see more lawrie jerseys around than bautista ones (although that’s a shame)
Maybe next year, but this year there were definitely way more Bautista jerseys
lol you’re really going by what you saw in the stands though?
I had no idea they made major league jerseys for players who have never put on a major league uniform.
Yeah that guy definitely doesn’t actually know anything about Jersey sales. This was definitely completely made up, and most probably wrong.
Aren’t jersey sales split between all MLB teams anyway?
i wasn’t referring to the money they make because of it…i’m only saying that after only 150 MLB at bats, he’s already the fan favourite
AA is too into value to deem any player “untouchable”.
Lawrie may actually be one of the most likely players to be traded befpre long. A long-term move to 3B might be in Bautista’s best interests considering his age, and if the Jays were to acquire or promote an outfielder (Marisnick? Gose?), then Lawrie would be a tremendous chip to deal with. He is the kind of player who can get you that ace to put you over the top.
if the right trade comes up, i agree, any player should be moved if it makes the team better, but i doubt he’s “one of the most likely players to be traded”.
He is the kind of guy who gets you Shaun Marcum, so really more of a solid 2/3 pitcher than an ace.
He was worth a Shaun Marcum in December of 2010, which in itself was a hell of a lot (a 20 year old prospect with baggage for a team’s no.1 starter in the bigs). You’d be hard-pressed to find anybody who thinks his value hasn’t considerably increased since then.
Lawrie on his own probably won’t be enough to get an ace, but he is likely where the conversation would start in the majority of cases. Considering where the Jays’ strengths are, it would be a huge mistake not to put him in play if necessary.
they are NOT moving him. He is their best hitting “prospect” that they are building around for years to come.
Yeah his value is definitely higher, I’m just making a point that he isn’t going to get you an absolute frontline starter without something else to sweeten the deal likely.
He was the kind of guy that would get you a Marcum with 2years of control LAST YEAR out of double-A… this year he gets you Pineda with 5 years of major league control. Cant you read??
Lawrie is worth more than Montero. Hence AA balked at including him for Pineda. They have enough assets that they dont need to discuss their most ready Major League bat to improve in other areas.
Lawrie moves to 2B if and when Bautista goes to 3rd.
Lawrie isn’t well-regarded as a 2B; one would think a move to LF would be more likely if Lawrie had to switch positions (and the Jays have a logjam there which emphasises Lawrie’s value as a trade chip).
Why the talk of moving him at all? If he can hack it at 3B, which he clearly can, then his bat is more valuable there thena corner OF. And especially so on a team with a logjam of OF prospects, but a dearth of IF prospects.
While he won’t be a GG, Lawrie looks liek he’ll actually be above average at 3B. So why would we move him?
If you read the conversation in full you’ll see why. It is not about him moving positions, it is about where the Jays are strong.
To cut a long story short: the Jays have a couple of top outfield prospects up and coming. They could take Bautista’s position; Bautista could take Lawrie’s position; and Lawrie could be used as prime trade bait for an ace.
why wouldnt you just trade bautista for an ace and have a peaking lawrie when you’re ready to contend rather than a declining bautista?
Because Bautista is more versatile in the field and his bat is near impossible to replace. That, plus other teams would want Lawrie for the exact reasons listed above (youth, control, less money).
That’s not to say that trading Bautista wouldn’t be the right move to make at some point. If it makes the team stronger it must be considered.
I have no idea where you are getting these crazy ideas, Lawrie is worth more than Bautista to some Blue Jays fans, myself included. We are not trading him. If anthing, we trade Lind, Arencibia or Johnson, but never Lawrie.
Bautista is a plus defender in RF. No reason to move him. and Lawrie is as untouchable as there is in any organization.
Bautista is an average RF and will only decline in his 30s; there is more value in him playing at 3B.
Lawrie is not untouchable. A deal for a player like King Felix would *start* with Lawrie’s name. It’s the Felixes of this world who are the closest thing to being untouchables.
Bautista an average RF? Are you kidding me? He is easily one of the best right fielders in the league.
And yes, Lawrie is the second most untouchable player on the Jays next to Bautista. Trust me, the fans in Toronto would RIOT if he was traded. He is neck and neck with Bautista as the most popular Jay.
You must not be from Toronto because you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.
Edit: Also to add to that the Jays were annoyed when they had to put Bautista at third. He’s great at the position but it’s not where they wanted him at all. He is a right fielder through and through. Once Lawrie came up both of those positions were solidified.
You are right, Bautista is not average in RF… all of the #s (outside of assists) show that he is a below average RF. I am a big Bautista fan btw
“You must not be from Toronto because you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.”
You’re not doing your fine city any favours.
OK, you’re done
Curious what they were expecting to be able to trade to get him.
they must have really thought pineda’s first half was a fluke to think about trading for lawrie. don’t get me wrong, brett is an above average hitter, but to trade a number 2 thats under contract control for marginal offense is crazy. im sure mariners fans are greatful they pulled the trigger on jesus rather then lawrie.
Marginal offense? The guy looks like he’s gonna go 30/100/20.
With a nice amount of doubles and triples in there as well. All while playing plus defense.
I would actually increase the SB’s to 30+. He has speed that comes out of no where. Routine ground balls to short are being beat out on occasion.
I would actually increase the SB’s to 30+. He has speed that comes out of no where. Routine ground balls to short are being beat out on occasion.
lawrie’s bat is not far off montero and lawrie actually provides defensive value, while montero will become a dh soon.
I really wish people would stop saying Montero will become a DH soon as if its a proven fact. None of you know that for sure. The Yankees believed he could catch and the Mariners traded for him with the belief that he can catch. Quit repeating whatever the media tells you.
I love how the team that has him is the only team in baseball that actually believes he can catch.
the yankees did not believe he could catch. they kept the myth of that entirely theoretical possibility alive to maximize his trade value
Haha yeah. If they actually thought he could catch, with a bat like that, there’s no WAY they would have traded him for Pineda
Wasnt the whole idea of Montero becoming a DH based on the fact that Tex as at 1st in the Yankees lineup? Now if Montero can’t stay at catcher he could always move to 1st in Seattle or as I have heard before, be tried out as a corner out fielder. The notion of not having a glove hehind the plate sure, but the notion of the guy providing zero defensive abilities at the age of 22 is just silly.
smoak is at first and even if montero played there he would be a DH playing first base (i.e. he’s expected to be a defensive liability anywhere he goes)
adam dunn was technically a 1B and OF at certain times in his career, but really he was always a DH playing the field
I’m not sold on smoak I’m not sure he will be able to hit in that park (and Montero might not be able to either). But to compare a 22 year old with less than 100 games to Adam Dunn makes little sense, he can still develop a glove.
i didn’t compare the players; dunn is just the perfect illustration of the point i was making
few humans are capable of failing as badly in the field as adam dunn has, but you can’t find many (if any) scouts that expect montero to provide defensive value at any position
that doesn’t mean he’ll be worthless — prince fielder is a DH playing 1B and he’s worked out ok so far — it just means there’s no reason to move a competent player like smoak off of first for him
I bet I could fail as badly as Dunn at fielding. Just saying.
I think Montero is far less worth than Lawrie. Montero is being overated because he was under Yabkees system. What happened to Beltre in Seatle will happen to Monero. He has to get 25+ HRs, 300 avg and good defence to proof that the Pineda trade was a good trade in Seatle’s point of view. I think, he will be a dissapointment to Seatle’s fans.
Yeah, Yanks prospects are always thought to be more valuable then they are. Banuelas as a top 10 prospect right now? That is laughable.
against my better judgement, on this one i think i’m gonna trust the people who know the kid’s name
lol ad hominem attacks, nice 🙂 …..just too lazy to look it up. Doesn’t change the fact that his actual pitching stats are not really that good. Certainly not worthy of the hype he gets.
i’m a big numbers guy, but the value of a prospect is not determined solely by his minor league stats page
I think he’s Top 20 or Top 25, not Top 10. If it’s laughable, you should laugh then at Baseball America or Baseball Prospectus who come out with these rankings.
Well, that’s what I am laughing at. The bias towards Yankee prospects. My point is, a guy who hasn’t put up elite numbers above A+ doesn’t really deserve that kind of hype.
These are guys from the entire country. They have no biasness towards the Yankees at all. I believe Dave Cameron previously wrote for Baseball Prospectus and he hates the Yankees with a passion.
will he be better at 1st than smoak defensively? unlikely. if he cant catch, he’s a dh in seattle just as much as he was in NY
marginal offense? .580 slugging last year…. 8 doubles, 4 triples, 9 hr and 7 SB in 150 ABs….that’s after slugging .661 in AAA
Inflated a lil by the dome.
might as well keep him hitting there then…..and the homers i recall were all bombs…out anywhere
and the guy in the white jacket telling him what pitches are coming.
I just wish he told JP Arencibia what pitches were coming.
So, are you George Custer reincarnate, indestructible until wounded knee?
I actually used to be a pet detective..
Is he not going to continue to play at the dome, or?
lol, wait till Pineda’s # get inflated by the popup HR’s into the RF bleachers at Yankee stadium.
I am sure all the doubles and triples that Lawrie had would have been singles elsewhere.
This argument can be made for Pineda as well.
This argument can be made for Pineda as well.
Because having fences closer to the basepaths makes it easier to leg out triples.
Last time I checked a throw from 420 ft is further than one from 375.
Marginal offense? The guy looks like he’s gonna go 30/100/40 as well as .580 slugging last year…. 8 doubles, 4 triples, 9 hr and 7 SB in 150 ABs
Granted, we will have to see if he’ll be exposed or not next year, but it’s the same deal with Montero, but Montero doesn’t have someone like Bautista to “protect” him.
lawrie hit for one month, just like montero, but montero for now plays a position seattle needs. where would figgins play in this trade? there are stud september call ups every year. you remember chris davis…he hit bombs all the time in his first 2 month call up at 3b and look where he is now.
You are seriously worried about where Figgins would play?!?
Ya because dh’s are so hard to come by. I would way rather have Lawrie sitting at third instead if Montero sitting on the bench.
It’s highly doubtful the Mariners ever had a chance to ‘pull the trigger’ on a Lawrie deal unless they included Felix.
take this hat and go sit in the corner
wow…. lol
Lawrie + Alvarez + d’Arnaud and MAYBE Jack Z agrees to discuss Felix.
definitely would take more than lawrie for felix. but lawrie is cheap and under control, and relatively expensive, so no chance D’arnaud would be in there. 2 highly rated prospects at premium positions? in your dreams.
definitely would take more than lawrie for felix. but lawrie is cheap and under control, and relatively expensive, so no chance D’arnaud would be in there. 2 highly rated prospects at premium positions? in your dreams.
hahaha, seriously?? Marginal offense?? Guessing you have no clue who Lawrie is or have never watched him swing a bat? The M’s would have been much better off with Lawrie who can at least play defense as opposed to the DH bound Montero… and I think think Jesus is a helluva a hitting prospect (as is Lawrie for sure). Was it the small sample .950 OPS, 7 sb that turned you off?? haha
lawrie is not proven. he came up hit for one month and then was just average in september. a lot of callups mash in the first month and then take awhile to hit once the league figures them out (if at all). brett pill hit 300 and slugged 560 in one month…is he a proven legit future all-star. no. montero and lawrie are on the same level of unsureness, but montero plays a position the mariners don’t have.
Also, if you are a believer in the “it factor” for ball players, that intangible thing that you can’t describe, but you know if when you see it…..then you have to place a value on Lawrie above and beyond jsut what the stat sheet says. If he doesn’t have it, then nobody has it. That’s clear to anyone who’s watched the kid play baseball.
ok, SMALL sample size, yes. Certainly not INSIGNIFICANT sample size. 43 games is not peanuts. And combined with his ridiculous year in AAA, the kid is clearly a winner.
I don’t care who you are, if you play 43 games at a full season pace of 9.7 WAR (150 game assumption)…and at the age of 21….then you are a special player. Wouldn’t even think about trading Lawrie for Pineda.
ya ok: stud 3b potential all star from the left coast vs. watching chone figgins… and i wil replay lawrie taking pineda deep in my mind. what happened was: Z – shoot jays screwed us for morrow we will get them back! Hey AA we got something special but we want lawrie – AA no you can keep felix – no we meant pineda! – aa pauses; is this a joke? i fail to see the punchline…
So as a Yankees fan I guess I should thank the Jays management for Pineda.
yes – the Yanks will be very pleased with him. Jays GM questionable at best.
Maybe it’s a questionable move, but I don’t call him a questionable GM.
What?? Anthopoulos has only made one bad decision that I can think of since he was promoted to GM – Napoli for Frank Francisco (which I called a bad move as soon as it happened; I’m not just saying it in hindsight). And it is *far* outweighed by a lot of really good moves that he’s already made in his short time as Toronto’s GM.
I’m not a Jays fan. In fact, I dislike them. But anyone who says that Anthopoulos is a “questionable GM at best” is either really uninformed, misinformed, or has a bias that they can’t see past.
Napoli would not have gotten the same playing time in Toronto as the 2nd/3rd catcher, 2nd/3rd 1B, and 2nd/3rd DH. Whereas at least Toronto got a reliever that could be trotted out to pitch (albeit not very well). Napoli was never part of the Jays plans last season. In hindsight Texas did win the trade but they also took a bigger risk as well.
Questionable GM? Every Yankees fan that owns half a brain would trade Cashman for AA in a heartbeat.
I doubt all three of them would make that move.
Lol, you’re insane. Because he didn’t trade away one of the best Canadian players to ever where a Jays jersey for a pitching prospect; you think he’s questionable? Really.
One of the best Canadian players ever–who has played about 25% of one season, might I add–for a pitching prospect–who has pitched a full season.
One of the funniest things I’ve read in awhile. Thank you.
Oh how irony is sweet.
One of the best Canadian players ever–who has played about 25% of one season, might I add–for a pitching prospect–who has pitched a full season.
One of the funniest things I’ve read in awhile. Thank you.
Pineda has two splits that should make any Yanks fan very uncomfortable:
1)1st half ERA – 3.03
2nd half ERA – 5.07
2) Home ERA – 2.93
Away ERA – 4.40
These suggest two things: One, hitters adjusted to him the more they saw him. Two, outside of the freidnly confines of Safeco, he didn’t do nearly as well.
Plus, he pitched in the AL West.
I would be very, very nervous about him coming a) to the AL East in general and b) coming from an extreme pitchers park to an extreme hitters park.
I think the Yanks have the biggest potential to lose this trade big time.
King Felix in his first full season as a starter
2006
Home ERA- 3.47
Road ERA- 5.47
You also do realize that Safeco is going to affect Montero’s hitting stats don’t you? He went from a possible 30 HR/100 RBI guy to a 15-20 HR/75-80 RBI guy
doubt it will have that much impact. montero is the furthest thing from a pull hitter and it’s safeco’s left field dimensions that kill right-handed power
I don’t have time to look since I am about to head home from work, but to give a quick heads up when I get back, what’s the best site, if there is one, to tell some kind of percentage of which part of the field a batter hits to? Ex. 40% LF, 20% CF, 40% RF
i don’t remember any of them breaking down the percentages for you, but b-ref’s splits pages have the raw data and mlbcom has spray charts. hittrackeronline is fun too but only for HRs
Uh, no. I don’t think you understand the Jays situation in comparison to your Yankees. Yankees have a surplus of offense and a young and dynamic prospect named Jesus Montero without a position. Blue Jays have a potential franchise player who helps solidify theirs. Why don’t you get your facts straight before you make a shortsighted and ignorant comment such as “Jays GM is questionable at best”.
And the Jays will thank Pineda when he gives up bombs to Lawrie? Hey-o!
About as much as the Yankees hitters have thanked Romero for 8 HR’s allowed in YS in only 43 innings. Morrow for 4 HR in 25 innings (when combined with the Old YS, 6 in 28 innings), Cecil 3 HR in 22 innings and Drabek, the only one with 0 HR against, but has an ERA near 20 (yes 1 game small sample, just saying though)
Wow. Those are some impressive stats. Where were these stud pitchers in October?
Watching it at home in Canada? Although I do see this team finally making it to the playoffs within the next few years, especially with teh 2nd wild card added in (although that should not be a 1 game playoff. Best of 3 I wouldn’t mind though)
exactly like the above. Much like when all the LH hitters hit those excuse me pop-up HRs off Pineda into the RF bleachers.
Every starting pitcher on the Blue Jays except Villineuva allowed more than 1 HR/9 innings. Pineda allowed under 1 per 9 (And he had a better HR/9 ratio Away than at Safeco) .
Sure he’ll give up the HR ball on occasion, but every pitcher does. CC allowed 5 HR’s in 1 game this year (to the Rays of all teams)
Yeah, the Jays are pitching in a hitters park, and Pineda is pitcching in a serious pitchers park. expect that HR/9 ratio to go up significantly. The yanks RF fence is barely 300 ft for gods sake. It’s little league.
Oh I agree it will go up, there’s no question about that. But it’s not like the Yankees traded away a 5 tool player for him. And did you forget Montero hit in a hitters park and now is hitting in a pitchers park? While I call this a very fair trade right now, it can be a lose-lose trade as much as a win-win trade
Dont think there is much argument to a Pineda/Montero swap being a fair trade. Seems the question as to who is better between Lawrie/Montero. Yanks did well to get Pineda for Jesus. Both fine young talents.
your welcome :p
Or as a Yankees fan, you should be wondering why SEA was shopping Pineda with so much fervor – unless you don’t believe in “you can never have enough good pitching” (which I don’t).
If I were NYY, I’d be approaching Pineda like a milk carton 2 weeks after its expiration.
I think in Seattle in that stadium with that roster dynamic, Seattle CAN afford to give up quality pitching for an elite bat. They need a bat capable of production anywhere, but they can turn a lot of decent pitchers into very good pitchers simply based on location…
The Mariners were going nowhere in a hurry regardless of how much pitching they had. They needed offense. This was a trade that benefited both teams. You can look for a conspiracy theory if you like all you want here and you won’t find any.
It was probably more “we have absolutely zero offense” than it was about having enough pitching.
Pineda now is probably pretty close to what Marcum was when that trade happened in terms of value. Lawrie is way more valuable now than he was when that trade happened. Thus, Pineda for Lawrie doesn’t really make sense.
Pineda at 5 years of team control and Marcum at only 2….Pineda is thus far more valuable than Marcum ever was. Not saying its what the Jays should have done, just sayin.
Marcum is established though. His arm, despite TJ, isn’t going to fall off and he’s going to maintain his value/ age at a rate consistent with other similar pitchers. We can’t really be sure about Pineda, especially after 1 season of 99MPH fastballs in a pitcher-friendly environment/division. For example, a pitcher with such a high FB% doesn’t typically perform well in Yankee Stadium/the AL East.
Perhaps you could say Marcum is established now, but when he was traded for Lawrie he was only a year removed from TJ surgery. But I’m not basing their values on FB%, fastball speed, park effects, strikeouts, innings pitched etc…I’m merely stating that 5 years of team control is infinitely more valuable than 2.
Marginal offense….Brett Lawrie? Clearly you have not watched this player, or understand the drive he has to be an elite player. Pineda is awesome, but Lawrie is special…he combines crazy athletic ability with a mindset of a warrior. He will open up many more eyes this season, I believe.
The mindset of a warrior? Ok Cris Collinsworth…
Clearly you haven’t seen this kid when he hits the ball.
He nearly tears off hands when he high-fives his teammates.
Haha. I hate Collinsworth more than any other announcer.
Why trade a future All Star who constantly helps fill the stadium just
by his country of birth for someone that the team has a plenty of in the
minors. The Jays are loaded with 2nd and 3rd pitchers in the minors,
but they are lacking some true aces, the only potential ace is
Synderguard. Adding Pineda and losing Lawrie would not get them any
closer to contending.
Pineda has the upside as an ace. He is a number 2 right NOW. To your point “why trade a future all star” Pineda already is an all star.
He does not have ace potential, playing in Seattle (extreamly pitcher friendly park) and AL west helped his numbers. He still had a 3.74 ERA as a rookie which is great. But he had a 2.92 ERA at home and a 4.40 ERA on the road, which shows how playing in Seattle really helped his numbers. His ERA was 5.12 after the all star breat, meaning either fatigue set in or that teams started to figure out how to hit against him. He also has a 14.54 ERA against Boston (I know it was only 4 innings) and a 5.30 ERA against the Jays, probably two of the teams that he will pitch the most against. Dont get me wrong he has great stuff and hes a great pitcher but he is no Ace. Would you rather have an all star playing defence and offence in every inning everyday or an all star playing once every five days for an average of 7 innings?
Players like Pineda are not rare, theres at least 1 new one every year, but getting a player of Lawrie’s skill, athletism, and character are rare.
Nailed it perfectly.
He did, but he also left out his former teammate Felix Hernandez’s first full season of stats. Which were worse than Pineda. I am not comparing the pitchers though so don’t get me wrong.
Actually he didn’t nail it perfectly because the Yankees did not trade a player who plays offense and defense. They traded a guy who plays offense. I will say Lawrie is more valuable to the Jays than Montero would have been for the Yankees, but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad trade for the Yankees.
I wasnt calling the Yankees trading Montero for Pineda a bad trade. It was actually a really fair trade because Montero doesnt play defence.
Felix’s first season saw him have a 2.67 ERA at the age of 19. In his first full season he was only 20 and it was his sophomore season (players tend to do worse on their sophomore season). Pineda was 22 in his first season, which is three years older than King or 2 if you start from his first full season. Felix also does equally well against all teams, the highest ERA he has against any team is 4.37 (against the Jays :O).
Pineda is a great pitcher that only plays defence in an average of 7 innings every 5th game.
Montero is a great batter that only plays offence 9 innings every game.
Lawrie is a great player that plays offence and defence 9 innings everygame.
If the Jays were willing to offer Lawrie do you think that Seattle would have taken Montero or Lawrie? My point is Lawrie’s value is much higher.
I’ve said that from the beginning that Lawrie means much more to the Jays than Montero would have meant to the Yankees.
He did, but he also left out his former teammate Felix Hernandez’s first full season of stats. Which were worse than Pineda. I am not comparing the pitchers though so don’t get me wrong.
Actually he didn’t nail it perfectly because the Yankees did not trade a player who plays offense and defense. They traded a guy who plays offense. I will say Lawrie is more valuable to the Jays than Montero would have been for the Yankees, but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad trade for the Yankees.
Nailed it perfectly.
Check out Felix’s home/road stats in his rookie season.
He does not have ace potential, playing in Seattle (extreamly pitcher friendly park) and AL west helped his numbers. He still had a 3.74 ERA as a rookie which is great. But he had a 2.92 ERA at home and a 4.40 ERA on the road, which shows how playing in Seattle really helped his numbers. His ERA was 5.12 after the all star breat, meaning either fatigue set in or that teams started to figure out how to hit against him. He also has a 14.54 ERA against Boston (I know it was only 4 innings) and a 5.30 ERA against the Jays, probably two of the teams that he will pitch the most against. Dont get me wrong he has great stuff and hes a great pitcher but he is no Ace. Would you rather have an all star playing defence and offence in every inning everyday or an all star playing once every five days for an average of 7 innings?
Players like Pineda are not rare, theres at least 1 new one every year, but getting a player of Lawrie’s skill, athletism, and character are rare.
Whoa! Brett Lawrie is too good of a hitter to have changed hands twice before putting it altogether. TOR knows that.
Sounds like SEA just HAD to get rid of Pineda before the secret was out on him.
Lawrie will have the best career of the three, barring injury. Alex is wise.
Just like Jeremy Reed did being an elite CF prospect as both a hitter and defender. Came up and hit almost .400. That worked out.
Thank you Alex for not pulling the trigger.
Wow, could u imagine an infield of Lawrie, Ackley, Franklin, and Smoak for the next 6 years. I fully understand why AA balked.
I would have been screwed, I just got his jersey
I’d like to see Pineda pitch in the AL East before I wish this trade happened
Don’t forget, the Jays got Lawrie for Marcum. I would have traded Marcum for Pineda anytime.
So what? Lawrie is worth far far more now than he was last year. It’s cute to use 20/20 hindsight.
Winning is far more important than local heroes when it comes to marketing. If Lawrie can be moved in a trade that makes the Jays stronger, then it is the right thing to do. For Pineda…no.
Agreed 100%.
Although I dont think there are very many players that would greatly benefit the Jays enough to move Lawrie, especially with them having the players they already have and what they have coming from arguably the top farm system in the game.
Well out of the three of them, I personally think Lawrie is the better player. Just my opinion though and maybe ill be completely wrong. But Lawrie really impressed anytime I got to watch him play last year.
He’s also the most marketable of the three. Great non-trade even though this report is completely bogus.
Pineda is a stud but I wouldn’t bother asking the Jays for Lawrie, he’s more untouchable than Joey Bats. That’s probably our problem, Wade has #3 potential if he puts it all together and Niemann looks like a front line starter when he’s healthy but too often, he’s not. We are probably asking for too much in return. I really just want a catcher, Molina needs to be the back up and the personal catcher for Helly and Moore maybe, help catch those corners but Jose Molina is not a starter.
Montero is without question the real deal, if I am the Mariners and plan on building my offense around him I would be begging and pleading with him to learn another position besides catcher. Catching he will need to take every 5th day off and is just so rough on your knees. They need to coax at least 155 games out of this young guy to make this trade worthwhile.
155 games a season.*
So people think Anthopoulos made a questionable decision by not trading a potential elite 3Bman for a #2 pitcher who probably would have been rocked in SkyDome? Maybe I’ve gotten into the eggnog a little early this year, but I’d much rather keep the position player who’s in the line-up 162 games a year, possibly putting up 6-8 WAR seasons before he’s even 28, than have the 2-pitch pitcher who’s ceiling may be 5 WAR.
Don’t get me wrong, Pineda can always introduce a 3rd pitch and possibly become better than his currently small sample-size indicates, but if you’re trading a player with Lawrie’s potential, you do it in a package for Felix, and we all know that wouldn’t happen.
Pineda has all the makings of a future ace. No he isn’t Felix (I’m glad you understand Felix is ours and you can’t have him) but Michael is 6’7″ and the upper 90s he throws seems even faster. If he develops an average change, the Yankees made a really good trade.
And then there’s the ballpark factor, where Pineda doesn’t have Safeco to pad his numbers anymore. With 4 of the 5 parks in the AL East being extreme hitters parks, chances are Pineda’s numbers will inflate–not because of a lackluster arm, just the aforementioned ballpark factor.
Low FIP’s, low SIERA, high K/9 rates, high ERA’s are what I’d expect from Pineda for the next 1-2 years. Also, height and FB speed doesn’t equate to much. Just ask Daniel Cabrera.
And then there’s the ballpark factor, where Montero doesn’t have Yankee Stadium to pad his numbers anymore. With 3 of the 4 parks in the AL West being extreme pitchers parks, chances are Montero’s numbers will deflate—not because of a lackluster bat, just the aforementioned ballpark factor.
Moderate BA, Low Slug%, moderate amount of HR’s are what I’d expect from Montero for the next 1-2 years.
I see what you did there.
I don’t think Safeco will effect Montero as much as it did Pineda, but that’s me.
I agree. I don’t get how his FIP was better Away when his ERA was much worse Away.
Not one pineda fly balls would have been a hr in yankee stadium based soley on distance.
that it was a good trade for the yankees doesn’t mean it would have been a good one for the jays. both teams made the right decision
Agreed. As I said earlier, Lawrie I would say is more valuable to the Jays than Montero would have been to the Yankees (for the next couple of years that is). Pineda/Montero (as of now) is a fair trade. Lawrie/Pineda would be a slight edge to teh Jays in a trade.
pineda is the biggest wildcard of the three, but that works both ways. he could fall the furthest, but if his change-up becomes legitimate (not in 2012, but beyond that) he could become a cost-controlled ace. pitching is the riskiest commodity, but also the most valuable when it pans out
you also can’t talk about the potential flukeyness of pineda’s one year sample without acknowledging that lawrie’s sample was even smaller
Talk about team bias… All three have POTENTIAL to be great players… but of the 3 Montero was the most highly regarded, Pineda was right behind him and then Lawrie. BA had Montero at #3, Pineda was at 16 and Lawrie was #40…
Don’t get me wrong, I love Lawrie and think he is the real deal, but as you say about Pineda, Lawrie’s sample size is even smaller.
It was tough to let Montero go, but it made sense for the yanks. Pineda’s ceiling is more like a right handed CC Sabathia if he develops his 3rd pitch.
All three have high potential, and I hope all 3 succeed, but to say Lawrie is by far the best of the 3 is team bias…
Ahh, so prospect rankings mean everything. I’ll keep that in mind for future comments.
*facepalm*
No it doesn’t, but you call out Pineda for a small sample size when Lawrie has a smaller one… That does mean something.
So you agree then that your argument was invalid.
I also fail to see how Lawrie’s sample size was smaller, seeing as Lawrie spent more time in the field than Pineda, and appeared in more games.
Now, that isn’t to say that Lawrie’s sample size wasn’t small, and it was never intended for it to appear I was saying such a thing. But when a 5-tool player is compared to a 2-pitch pitcher, which is what both players currently are, Lawrie clearly has the most value. I never mentioned Montero since his involvement is somewhat irrelevant, but if I had to choose between a young DH, who’s a borderline awful 1Bman, and a 3Bman who’s shown he can at least handle the position adequately, I’ll take the latter.
Pineda was up all season…
Lawrie came up in august…
Just because a pitcher isn’t out there every day doesn’t mean he is less valuable. Tell that to Roy Halladay. Lawrie had a smaller sample. period.
Sample size does not equate to service time, at least not equally between position player and pitcher.
Having said that, the argument has been rendered moot by the both of us.
Surprised you used Roy Halladay as your example. Why not use the AL MVP?
Lol just because I prefer Halladay I suppose. I actually thought about it too. You’re right tho, I should have!
Lawrie would have almost certainly been up in June or July had it not been for an injury a broken or bruised bone in his hand, I think.
You have to factor in Lawrie’s age. Line him up against Longoria from age 18 to 21 and you will see greater achievements from Lawrie.
I forget how old Montero and Pineda are… care to remind me?
But the argument can be made I suppose. Lawrie plays the more demanding position while it’s debatable Montero doesn’t even have a position. The more valuable is the player on the field.
Pineda made half his starts in Safeco last year, and this year he’s moving to some very hitter-friendly parks. To go along with his pretty bad second half last year, albeit a small sample size, there’s reason to be concerned.
Lawrie made a good showing in his small sample size playing 3B. One shouldn’t take too much stock in the BA Rankings, or prospect rankings in general. They gauge upside, but they can’t accurately project MLB success. I’m not trying to rag on your opinions at all, I just thought it’d be fun to analyze those three players for a minute or five.
I can definitely see that argument. I’d definitely agree that as long as Montero does not stick at catcher Lawrie has the edge on a position.
But in regards to Pineda, his FIP was actually lower away from Safeco, sitting at 3.26 while his FIP at home was 3.62. Even though his ERA was actually lower at home I wouldn’t read into it too much.
If we are going to live in the winter of 2010 when Lawrie was #40 (after leading a pitchers league in XB hits as the 2nd youngest player in the league)… then I get to proclaim that the White Sox made a great deal to get a surefire 35HR machine like Adam Dunn for only $14mil per. I will also say that the Jays would be best served to let Bautista play out the year on a 1 year ARB deal and prove he’s not a fluke then try to sign him for $13mil per. lol
Think it was Sickels (or could have been Callis) that said that if he was still prospect eligible that he would slot Lawrie in behind Harper…. maybe behind Trout too, but I dont think so, IIRC
First, I didn’t downplay Lawrie’s talent whatsoever. My only comment was to the commenter who basically said he is much more superior to Montero and Pineda. That I do not agree with. They are very different players with very similar value right now. Only time will tell who is the most valuable.
Is it just me or does Pineda sound a lot like a pitcher the Jays already have in Henderson Alvarez (Alvarez has less upside though).
Somewhat similar. Alvarez is much more of a groundball pitcher than Pineda though, which is only a good thing. Alvarez has the ceiling for a solid #2 pitcher, but it’s more accurate to see him become a #3 due to the lack of K’s. Pineda I think has the ceiling for a #1b. Pineda needs to learn a 3rd pitch and induce more groundballs. Alvarez has a 3rd pitch with plus-potential, but it’s average at best right now.
That’s my opinion for the two, but we all know the saying about opinions. They’re like armpits: everyone has them and they stink.
….
Brett Lawrie is a stud! Not worth Pineda, who is a solid #2 =S
HAHA good luck getting Lawrie.
He certainly was an all-star, all the way up until right after the All-star game. lol
Not sure why people are so quick to hate on Pineda… tho I am sure there is some good difference in his #’s away from Sea or Oak, ha He is a fine young pitcher I would gladly have welcomed to Toronto… just not at the cost of Lawrie. Not an indictment of Pineda as much as praise for a special player to be
Lawrie > Fatty Montero . Mariners got stuck with an overhyped DH
People do realize how little MLB experience Pineda has right? Pitchers are much harder to project than hitters. Big gamble for the Yankees. Drabek was a higher rated prospect than Pineda at the beginning of last year. That just shows how unpredictable hurlers are. Factor in Yankee stadium and The Yankees should be very worried.
add in the fact the AL East beat up on him last year…
Add to the fact that he pitched bad twice in those parks. Yeah, great sample size.
And once in his own park. 😉
Lawrie should be untouchable at this point. Period!
it can’t… Mariners already traded pineda for montero.
Did you not read the post…? It was discussed. Nothing was ever agreed upon…
Also, Marcum wouldnt have been enough to pry him away from Milwaukee if not for the “attitude issues”
Jays would have to be nuts to trade Brett Lawrie, no thanks
All of this is setting up the Felix for Lawrie plus plus :)… Please? Maybe? Please? PLEEEEEEAAAAAAASSSSSEEEEEEE
Sure I’ll get disagreed with, but I would do Lawrie for Felix straight up, but not much more. Maybe Lawrie+a C or C+ prospect or something.
You would do that, the M’s wouldn’t.
Not even close.
They Jays would have never traded their poster boy.
This guy is going to have his face on the side of the Rogers Centre… and you know what? That’s gonna sell tickets.
Critics of Mariner trades always overlook how little there has been to spare the last few years. Since you have to give up something to get something, even adding prospects has not been easy.
They have to give up something you might miss in order to build. The Pineda/Montero deal was two for two. So maybe they are more for filling out the team with talented needs now instead of trying to add some depth.
Depth has been a issue before and many fans just don’t realize how bad the M’s needed to add more as they only think of big names that could not help the team that much by themselves.
Cliff Lee was practicallly a gift and a easy flip in mid-season, but the M’s were lucky to have that situation fall into their hands.
The mass of players they got out the deal that sent out J.J. Putz still should fill three spots on the roster next year with Guti, Vargas & Carp.
Even the controversial Morrow for League deal was not a straight up. The M’s did get a lower minors power hitter back also. Chavez struggled last year, but the M’s did get two players in return there.
Fister (and Pauley who was not a significant player) were dealt for multiple players:
Furbush, Ruffin, Wells and Martinez.
They had to restock the organization and rebuild a big club with holes all over at the same time. No easy task.
adding a starter and having encarnacion or bautista play 3B makes this move from the jays point a no brainer..
I’m curious as to why a D’arnaud centered deal didn’t intrigue them though
JP will get moved to first when d’arnaud is ready (which won’t be all that tough to do, he’s had more than a little practice scooping balls out of the dirt). AA isn’t anxious to trade anyone right now, and I understand why
JPA only makes it to first it his bat improves.
JP will get moved to first when d’arnaud is ready (which won’t be all that tough to do, he’s had more than a little practice scooping balls out of the dirt). AA isn’t anxious to trade anyone right now, and I understand why
A no brainer? We don’t know who else would have been in the deal. Lawrie plus a pitcher with decent potential (Alvarez/Hutch/Deck/who knows)?
I think AA has plans to deal JPA away once D’Arnaud proves himself, JPA should bring decent value in a deal in a season or two.
I meant a no brainer for turner it down, sorry my point wasn’t clear as i re read it
Ah ok. That makes a ton more sense.
Is it feasible to have JP as the DH/backup C, and D’arnaud as the full time catcher?
It’s feasible, but, JPA should be able to get us something decent to fill out other parts of the roster should we need it. He could also possibly learn first base if his bat progresses enough.
It’s like 10000 spoons when all you need is a knife…
or Jon Rauch
I would have been very upset if this happened, Lawrie, Pineda, Kipnis, and Maybin are my 4 favorite players, and Pineda in AL East is bad but Lawrie in SAFECO too! Sheesh!
I’m a Red Sox fan. I would only trade Lawrie for King Felix and I’d want someone else from Seattle to go with him. Lawrie is the kind of player I would empty the farm for—sign him long term–like 10 years. He’s a Longoria type, maybe better.
It doesn’t matter if Lawrie has Longoria potential. There’s no way Felix would be traded for him straight up, much less Felix and an additional player…that’s just ridiculous.
Btw, I do think he’ll be better than Longoria.
It might happen on Nintendo, so he can keep his fingers crossed.
“Not sure why people are so quick to hate on Pineda”
because he will be wearing those pinstripes. it’s too hard not to
this is the worst comment discussion on mlbtr, ever….
The reply columns get so skinny I can’t read them so If I’m repeating someone, oh well. The problem why the Jays didn’t move Lawrie was the M’s wanted MLB ready pitching back in return, too. That’s where they ended up w/Noesi.
BTW, no one has mentioned just how awful the Marcum-for-Lawrie trade was for the Brewers.
It worked out alright, Marcum’s been very good for the Brewcrew.
Doesn’t surprise me. That would have been the price and I’m sure Padres asked for Lawrie too in Latos talks.
I’m glad Jays didn’t do it. Not that Pineda is bad or anything. I think he will be a #1-2 but Lawrie could be a special player as well. Trading Lawrie for Pineda or another pitcher would have filled one hole and created another. We also have pitching coming up so I’m fine with not making this move.
Lawrie is not going to stick at 3B. He’ll be a corner outfielder and I don’t know if he’ll be able to produce enough to warrant the switch.
I would have taken Pineda if the Mariners would have thrown in Nick Franklin. Maybe some sort of two for two deal.
Unless he becomes really big, he will probably stick at 3rd base. He was excellent in the majors and he will be hit for pretty much any position. His bat is that good and was never the issue. Issue with him was always position and defense but he seemed to transition to 3rd very nicely.