The Cubs are attempting to deal "most of their valuable assets" before Spring Training begins and "a complete overhaul of the team will definitely happen," two Major League sources tell David Kaplan of CSN Chicago. The impending Sean Marshall-for-Travis Wood trade is the first step in this process, as the Cubs are acquiring a young, controllable, 24-year-old southpaw starter for a 29-year-old reliever who was set to earn $3.1MM in 2012.
We heard last month that the Cubs were shopping their entire roster, though as MLBTR's Tim Dierkes pointed out, "a team drawing three million fans a year doesn't often embark on a full-on offseason rebuilding effort." The Marshall-Wood trade, for instance, still gives Chicago a player who can contribute in 2012. Also, the Cubs were rumored to be in on the Albert Pujols and Prince Fielder sweepstakes this winter, as signing either player would represent the Cubs' first step towards respectability under the Theo Epstein/Jed Hoyer regime. Kaplan, however, hears that the Cubs aren't in on Fielder, nor are they planning to make him "a major offer."
"The Cubs have never had the guts to completely blow up their roster and build it the right way," an unnamed NL executive tells Kaplan. "They have to have a plan for sustained success instead of always trying to patchwork a roster for a surprising season."
Even if the team does rebuild, I'd argue the process may not take as long as the Wrigleyville fans may fear. Carlos Zambrano, Ryan Dempster and Marlon Byrd all come off the books after this season, leaving Alfonso Soriano as the only major remaining albatross contract on the payroll. Chicago's future payroll commitments could get even lower should Matt Garza and/or Carlos Marmol be traded, so Epstein and Hoyer could have tens of millions of dollars to work with by as soon as next winter. This is admittedly a long list of ifs, but if this extra spending money can be augmented by a couple of strong drafts and the emergence of young stars like Andrew Cashner and Brett Jackson, the Cubs could be back in the NL Central hunt by as soon as 2014.
Moronic.
You watch your mouth boy
Don’t know about you, but I usually don’t use my mouth when typing.
you watch your fingers boy, better? Now i sound dirty
Wrong. You “read” dirty.
Last time I checked the Cubs weren’t a good team, how is leaving the team the way it is smart? Rebuilding is the complete opposite of moronic.
Because–and I’m not putting this into every single inquisitive reply, so if you want to know, read this one–it’s the worst market to do this.
Draft and international FA spending has been capped, a first in baseball. This means less money can go into those facets of building a team. The Cubs have operated with a $120-150 million payroll for YEARS, and now that they have more funds to put into that MLB payroll, they decide to cut payroll and trade every valuable asset? It’d be like getting a $1 million Christmas bonus, then selling your mansion and BMW for a trailer and a 1992 Ford Tarus as a result.
Second, the team’s biggest need for quite some time now has been a competent 1B (on offense). Lee was good in 2005 and 2009, but ’06-’08 and these past two seasons were lacking. On top of that, the monster bat from the left side has been missing for HOW many years? Now, in 2011, the best FA for the team is a monstrous slugger from the left side. On top of that, this is the worst market for a player of his kind–none of the big clubs (Dodgers, Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.) are in on him. They are all broke (Mets, Dodgers), or they have high-dollar 1B on their rosters (Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies, Tigers). This is THE time to go after a guy like Fielder, when the biggest competition is the Deattle Mariners.
Now, I’m not saying go spend all of the money in the world. Ther should absolutely be a big shift towards amateur spending and scouting, and guys like Garza, Marshall, Marmol, Soto, Byrd, and Soriano should go. However, that doesn’t mean you have to totally gut the team, go Florida Marlins (pretend you’re poor and refuse to spend money), and leave the city with a team so bad the Astros can beat them handily. Fielder is the kind of piece you get now and build around. Having Travis Wood (and a couple of prospects) developing into MAYBE a #3 starter is a decent rotation start, and they have a few young arms in Cashner (shoulder willing), Dolis, and whomever else escapes my mind this second. You have Castro, of course, along with Baez, Szczur, Jackson, and Vitters progressing in the minors for a year or two.
My point is, this should be a project that takes 2-3 years, but they’re sounding like they want a long-term project of 5+ years before this team sniffs the division, let alone the playoffs or World Series.
I’m saying it’s moronic that they want to blow up a team with the money and (alleged) baseball acumen to contend in the short-term, if they so desire, in the hopes of giving a fan base with a century-long title drought a worthwhile product by 2020.
You would seriously prefer to try to contend in a year or two at the cost of long term success rather than have a perennial contender but have to wait 3-4 years?
Why does it need to be an either/or proposition? The minor league system is completely devoid of impact Players other than MAYBE BJax.
Why not sign Fielder to anchor the offense? Why not pick up a Kuroda type of rotation anchor?
It sounds like a blatant money grit from an owner who is looking to extort money to rebuild Wrigley.
because you aren’t a fielder+kuroda away from winning. you aren’t good. you suck. accept it. embrace it. you need draft picks and prospects, not top free agents and 3rd place
You’re right–prospects are more proven commodities than free agents. The Yankees won the World Series after drafting A.J. Burnett, CC Sabathia, and Mark Teixeira.
you’re right, the 2012 cubs are a lot like the 2008 yankees
you are completely delusional
No, but the Yankees did draft Jeter, Rivera, Posada, and Petite, and they signed Cano as an international amatuer FA, also they used their players (Soriano) to trade for ARod. Pretty Solid team if you ask me…. They had a solid base and filled in the holes with big name FA’s. The Cubs don’t even have a solid base yet, and you are wanting them to sign every FA available and then be strapped with bad overpriced contracts in 4-5 years just like before. Forget Fielder… If he wants anything more than 4-5 years, he can just go play in SafeCo for all I care. Theo and Co. are doing it the right way. I want them to build from the farm system, and in 3-4 years they should have the talent to contend for the next decade. Fill the holes then. They’ll have 100 million to spend after all these Jim “Clueless” contracts are off the books.
Throwing literally hundreds of millions of dollars at players who are at, or are getting near, the downside of their careers is not the way to build lasting success. Especially when those players aren’t even enough to put you in contention in the short, or long, term.
They could have signed all of Wilson, Darvish, Buehrle, Fielder, Reyes, Papelbon, and Madson and still only been maybe contenders; then in a few years they would have a Yankee sized payroll, no farm system (and no where to play prospects even if they have them), and again be a sub-.500 team.
Why can’t they build a system while ALSO attempting to make an effort to win? This system will take 5-7 years to consistently produce anything. Might as well grab some strategic difference makers now to speed up the process.
Because of everything I just said; they don’t have the core in place to contend even if they spent $400M on free agents.
And the farm doesn’t need to take 4-5 years to produce if you trade away players. The prospects you would get in those deals would be maybe a year away from the majors and maybe 2-3 away from being significant contributors, and by at that time you can add free agents to complement them and have more prospects coming up through the system behind them.
You trade Garza, Marshall, Marmol, Byrd, Soriano, and Soto for prospects. You grab Fielder and maybe Edwin Jackson as guys who will be productive for the club for 5+ years without hurting the farm in the slightest after shedding payroll.
I’m still not seeing why it’s bad to use FA AND trades to build the team.
So you’re saying to just blow up the whole roster and leave a bunch of AAA guys on it, then hope Prince signs? LOL.
Trade all of them and sign big money free agents? That is the biggest waste of money in the world.
“Even if the team does rebuild, I’d argue the process may not take as long as the Wrigleyville fans may fear… the Cubs could be back in the NL Central hunt by as soon as 2014.”
Yeah, IF THEY GET FREE AGENTS. What, do you think they’re going to make a World Series contender in 3 years by drafting alone?
The 2012 guys might be on the MLB roster by 2014, at least the best ones. You might see one–perhaps two– 2013 draft guys on the 2014 roster IF the Cubs tank 2012 on purpose and everything in drafting goes perfectly. 2014 draftees will be useless. Baez and Szczur SHOULD be ready, but might not (and might not pan out at all).
The draft is not enough to build a team in 3 years’ time. You have to get free agents. Who are you going to get in the 2013 offseason, Joey Votto? He’s not guaranteed to become a FA, will cost more (inflation 2 years from now), we might see a team or two in contention to bid on Votto, he’ll probably want more years than Fielder (while being 3 years older when he hits FA than Fielder is as a FA now), AND he will be 30.
So, what is the logical reasoning behind why they should aim for 2014 contention but not sign Fielder?
No one is claiming they shouldn’t/won’t sign free agents when they make sense. No one is saying they are rebuilding only through the draft. You’re putting your own spin on this that really doesn’t make any sense.
When the Cubs have a core that can compete where the FAs they sign are to put them over the top, not get them started is when they’ll be active in FA.
You trade players specifically so you don’t have to build through the draft alone. If you trade those players you don’t have to wait for those drafted guys to be competitive.
You’ve essentially got three choices:
1) Keep all of your player and sign a bunch of expensive free agents. What you get in this case is a $200M payroll and 3rd place more often than not for the foreseeable future.
2) Trade your players and still sign big money free agents (why?). What you get in this scenario is a $150-160M payroll and 4th place and maybe contention at some point, but the free agents you signed now will be older, expensive, and declining at that point so maybe you don’t.
3) Trade your players and don’t sign free agents. What you get in this scenario is 5th place for a couple years and then a team that contends for the division title every year starting after that (this is when you sign free agents).
“and now that they have more funds to put into that MLB payroll, they decide to cut payroll and trade every valuable asset?”
If all that you mean by that is that they should sign Fielder, I would be okay with that. I would be worried about the contract, but I wouldn’t be overly upset if it happened.
Beyond that, though, there is simply not much of value to buy. Pujols (off the board) or Fielder, okay — risky contracts, but obviously quality players. Beyond that, free agency just doesn’t offer what the Cubs need. The Cubs need two front-end-quality starters, and in my opinion there wasn’t a single one of those available. I’m not willing to pony up for CJ Wilson, and Mark Buerhle is a good pitcher but I don’t consider him a top-of-rotation starter. Kuroda? I suppose, but his contract isn’t likely to be long enough to carry him into the Cubs’ contention period, so unless you’re planning to sign him and flip him I don’t see the value. And he’ll probably want a NTC to avoid exactly that.
Second, the team’s biggest need has NOT been a first baseman or a lefty slugger. They need high-quality starting pitching. Think of this: Zambrano is gone after this year and Dempster may very probably will be as well — that leaves basically nobody in the rotation. Randy Wells, maybe. Behind him? Travis Wood, I guess. Nobody knows if Cashner’s body can hold up to the rigors of starting. Nobody knows if Carpenter can reign in the control and develop a decent third pitch to succeed as a starter. Nobody knows what Trey McNutt might do — and he’s probably our best hope. Dolis isn’t likely to be a starter. In fact I think they may have given up on that already in the second half of last season.
Next year at least offers the HOPE of some good signings. Cole Hamels might be available; Matt Cain might be available; Zack Grienke (though I worry about him in Chicago) — all of those would be nice signings in an area of extreme need if they are not locked up before that. Behind them you have a lesser tier of starters like Colby Lewis, Lirano, Blanton, and Jonathan Sanchez. And I’m not including people like James Shields or Dan Haren who have options likely to be picked up, all of these guys are free agents absent an in-season extension. If you want to spend big bucks–and I do agree that the CBA changes makes this more of a necessity–then next offseason is the time to do it.
Third, I actually agree with you on the timeline. Two years may be optimistic, but I have been saying three as the time to turn this around for a while now, especially with the other teams in the division sliding backward a bit other than the Reds. But there’s really nothing on this team, with the exception of Starlin Castro, that figures into those plans. Who do you object to trading, exactly? Soto? He’s alright, but wildly inconsistent year-to-year and we have a couple catchers behind him who could also do a nice job. First is empty, third is Stewart or empty, Soriano I’m assuming you would put on the first train out of town, Byrd is about to be a free agent (and he plays in the outfield where most of the Cubs’ minor league talent is anyway). They don’t need to trade anybody like Cashner who might be around when the club contends and I don’t think that is part of the plan. Everybody else could and should be dealt, though. They hold no value to the Cubs as players, maybe they can provide some value as trade chips.
I guess what I’m saying is this: The Cubs aren’t very far from being completely blown up to begin with. Might as well finish the job and purge anybody who is not likely to be with the team and productive three years from now.
”
Draft and international FA spending has been capped, a first in baseball. This means less money can go into those facets of building a team.”
Maybe this is just me, but wouldn’t that mean now is a GREAT time to start a rebuild by trading your few established veterans for prospects that won’t adversely affect said international and draft caps? If they just sit on these guys, they’re going to continue treading water until they’re free agents and then run the risk of either accepting a lesser haul or being subject to those new CBA regulations by settling for draft compensation.
Cubs need more than 1 player, they really need pitching. Can they sign Prince Fielder, Roy Oswalt, Edwin Jackson, and Ryan Madson. Then trade for a 3B.
Do they have so much money?
as a Cubs fan I agree 100% to this…any club that rebuilds needs a peice to work around some big bat and well to be honest the Cubs dont have one. now if we had Ramirez stil maybe but I believe the Cubs need Fielder so they can build the team around him. end of story
Why? If they try to get to a point where they can compete without trading away any of their good players it could take them years (and most, or all, of those player will be gone by then anyway), if it even happens at all. If they trade away the few good players they do have it could have them in contention in 3-4 years.
That’s the theory. If that theory works. Right now, they didn’t get a lot for Marshall because of the Elias rankings. It was a decent cost controlled pitcher, at least so far. If they could trade Garza (and we’re not quite sure who’s the right trade partner), that certainly helps. But if they don’t get him traded by the end of the year, then it becomes a John Danks situation. And we all saw what happened to him.
Furthermore, this isn’t the same situation that Theo inherited with your team. This is the Cubs, who despite larger spending in last year’s draft, have never had a core nucleus of picks come up and produce in MLB under Hendry. With Theo’s 1st draft, that could change but it could take 2015 for his picks to produce. This comes with the Cubs being in the 3rd largest media market and with a fanbase that draws nationally. The theory you speak of would be great if this team were the Royals or Rays and didn’t have as much media attention or fans. It’s not. It’s like asking the Dodgers, Yankees, or Red Sox to do this under similar circumstances. You could argue the Mets are doing it, but their financial situation is different, especially next year with more bad Cubs’ contracts coming off the books. IMO, Theo renigs on his philosophy and by the beginning of 2014 signs $$ FAs, because he sees that draft and develop model alone won’t work for a big market team such as this. That kinda defeats building from the ground up because I don’t forsee his core team being ready. I see lots of angry Cubs fans, mad because this team “tanked” it for 2 years, while, in the end Theo’s redoubles and signs $$ FAs anyway.
That’s my exact point. They have the money to spend, and it’s even MORE money with amateur spending caps in-place. They’re just pretending they’re destitute and refusing to spend for whatever goofy reason.
When your route of team building won’t produce for 5-7 years, what’s the harm in giving a guy like Fielder 5-7 years of $18-22 million annually? I mean, the team has only one person making ACTUAL money after this season (Soriano).
If they can get Fielder for $16 mil a year, they’ll do it. Right now he, thru his agent, are looking for 10/255. Are you saying the Cubs should pay that??
Umm…no one’s offering 10 years. No one’s even offering 8, maybe not even 7. They can SAY he’s aiming for that, but no one’s going to offer it.
So we can pay Fielder $20m/yr to play on our losing teams?
What a waste of money.
Not if he puts fans in the seats, and is in place for a run 3 years from now. The term ” waste of money” is one the Pirates use. The Cubs have money the money. Do you get a dividend if they don’t spend it now?
What money does it waste, the money Ricketts would spend on better nachos stands otherwise, if not pocket?
2011: $134 million payroll
2012 (pre-arb): $73 million
2013: $33 million
2014: $20.5 million
2015: $0
Payroll drops $61 million, $40 million, $12.5 million, and $20.5 million from the end of 2011 until now. The money’s not getting spent anywhere else, so why not use it to draw more people to the park and win a few more games?
Oh, and that doesn’t even count if they manage to move some of Soriano’s money, that Marshall WILL have his money removed, Byrd will draw interest, and Dempster and Zambrano could, perhaps Soto and Marmol as well.
They have the money. It’s not a waste to spend money you have on the stuff you need. It’s a waste of money to hoard it all in a bank vault and never spend it when you could clearly do much better by spending it.
This is my biggest concern about this “story”. I have no problem dealing anyone off the roster per se.
My fear is that this is an expectation reset by the Ricketts. One where they get the fans prepared for 80-100 million dollar payrolls instead of 130-150 million dollar payrolls.
Bad news ANYWAY you try to spin that.
It looks that way, but you are missing a couple of points.
1: right now, here is how the starting roster looks-
C-Soto
1b- Baker
2b- Barney
SS- castro
3b- Stewart
OF- soriano, de Jesus, Byrd
That’s a lot of bad. No power, little speed, poor OBP.
Pair that with a rotation of Garza, Dempster, zambrano; wells, cashner/t wood
Which is “complimented” by a Marshall-less relief core, and Wild Thing Marmol as your closer, and you are looking at an epically bad team. Now…trade away some of your more marketable pieces (garza, and I guess Byrd), and the team is so much worse. Granted; it won’t make a difference in the standing per se; but Cubs fans are pretty pissed about the last several seasons, and doing this drags down attendance to even worse levels (by cub standards).
So, then 2- Signing Fielder makes the team a little more competitive while getting fan interest back into the team. Nobody likes a total overhaul, especially from a team that hasn’t won a world series in 500 years. Fielder sparks interest, puts fans in the seats, and helps sell some stuff. Enough to cover the cost of fielder? Perhaps not. But enough to take the edge off.
I think we are overlooking the fact that the cubs can’t trade off their team and expect good players in return. Garza would bring in a nice haul. Castro would bring in a massive haul, but doesn’t make sense to deal him. After that, who is of any value? Friggin no one.
I say deal Garza, because the free agent pitching pool has little left, and it’s proving to be a sellers market. Sign Fielder, and sign E-Jax. Show the fans you are serious. I’m a White Sox fan, and am always amazed at Cubbie optimism. All you have ondo is dangle hope, and they will fill the seats.
With plenty of revenue + extra money from the masses, you can slowly buy pieces, while hoping some of the farm talent (including what you get for Garza) pans out….and you finally have the chance to be a perennial contender.
Yeah, I’m beginning to wonder if someone forgot to tell Theo he needs to play out a big league season and forfeiting is not an option. I just hope that, if we trade Garza, we get a SP we can immediately insert into the starting rotation. I’m getting a little concerned though with whom that trade might be. The Nats, Red Sox, and Rangers seem to be out of the discussion.
They didn’t get much for Marshall? They got multiple years of a starting pitcher plus two prospects for one year of a reliever…
I know it’s not the same situation as with the Sox; the Sox only required tweaking and were in contention a year later, with the Cubs he need to pull of a complete tear down and re-build. If the Red Sox were as bad off as the Cubs (and had been that way for as long) I would be begging for a rebuild.
What Theo was hired to do was to turn the team into perennial contenders, not to make a run at the playoffs. To do that they need to rebuild the team from the ground up; not only the team on the field, but the minor league system, the scouting and development guys, the coaching staffs, everything.
I’m sure he’ll end up spending money on free agents when he feels the team is ready to contend, but in the mean time there is no reason to hang on the the few good players they have only to delay the time until they are a contending team.
If they can trade 2-3 good major leaguers for 8-10 good-very good prospects their fans should be more than happy.
Yesh, I think Wood and a couple of prospects (depending on who they are) is a decent return. However, after seeing Adams draw two prospects ranked as B+ guys and top-10 prospects (both are top-5 in the SD system, according to John Sickels), it is understandable to be disappointed that you’re losing the RP with the highest WAR from 2010-2011.
You are way too attracted to prospects then. Wood has a ceiling of a #3, much like Wieland in the Adams trade. He also has 5 years of control left and over 200 innings of MLB baseball experience with some success (and some failures, but that’s to be expected in someone 24).
It’s also been reported that the two prospects in the trade are a B- and C rated prospect, so it’s not like they’re garbage.
Reportedly Sappelt and Torreyes. Torreyes is tiny and young, but he’s off to a pretty nice start to his MiLB career so far. Sappelt doesn’t look too shabby either. Both of them were rated C+ prospects at pre-season and both put up great numbers following that ranking.
Not too shabby for a reliever with only one year left, honestly.
As long as he sticks to it and see those prospects through. As long as he doesn’t sign FAs before those prospects show productivity, then I’m ok with it. Problem is, in the end, I don’t think that’s how its going to turn out. The haul for Marshall is good but we’re still waiting for the names of those prospects to determine HOW GOOD it is…
Theo was always very good at sticking to his plan, so unless you have some reason to believe that has changed I would expect him to stick to it.
So why did he spend the big bucks on Lackey and Crawford? He’s got a good young nucleus and clearly didn’t need either one of them.
Have you read anything that’s been said? You sign big free agents once you have a nucleus in place. The Cubs don’t have that, but once they do he will sign free agents to complement that nucleus. Signing them now is backwards and a waste of resources.
Signing Crawford and Lackey to me is a waste as well. There’s a middle ground and Theo needs to find it.
Lackey was a waste because he ended up sucking, but it wasn’t a bad move at the time (their biggest need was pitching and he was the best pitcher available), and it’s pretty much the same story with Crawford, only it’s way too early to say that the sucked/was a waste.
Keith Law’s reporting Dave Sappelt and Ronald Torreyes.
As a Cubs fan Im disappointed with us rebuilding but i see the point everyone is making and it makes perfect sense.
That’s a reasonable position; watching a losing team sucks, a lot, but it really is what’s best for the long term success of the team.
I like it myself. We have a slow, non-OBP team with sporadic power. I wouldn’t mind a bit of an overhaul and better positioning for 2014 and beyond.
OVerhauling a roster doesn’t require tearing the whole thing apart.
Case in point: David DeJesus.
I’m really pissed that Frank McCourt has bought the Cubs.
What you should be pissed at is it took a new owner to rid the team of Jim Hendry. He’s left as bad an organization as you could possibly have. The team, as it stands today, is going to spend $100+ mil, a little less than the Cards did on their team last year, and have almost nothing that gives them any hope of winning 70 games. The minors are almost as bad.
Their payroll is about $75 million, and that’s with guys who will draw trade interest, like Garza, Byrd, Soriano (with money eaten), Soto, and maybe Zambrano and Dempster.
The thing is, the Cubs aren’t cash-strapped. They can use finances to fix problems, while the Cardinals actually CREATED them with Pujols.
If payroll is $75 mil none of the arbitration guys, including garza, are added in.
Paying Pujols 8/111 created a problem for the Cards?? In those 8 seasons they only won 2 WS. The Cubs paying Alfonso Soriano 8/136 created problems, and is still a problem, for the Cubs.
How has spending, per cots, $144 mil and $134 mil the last 2 seasons worked out?? I’ll take the Cards ‘CREATED’ problems, and 2 WS rings…
That $75M only includes 7 players. If they don’t trade anyone else their payroll is likely to be higher than last year after arbitration raises and filling out the rest of their roster.
you don’t just troll on Pacer forums I see. It would be idiotic to spend in free agency this year we flat out suck. We need to trade everyone but Castro and rebuild this thing the right way.
Do you honestly feel that they can just pick up the pieces to contend once they “decide to” in one offseason?
What is wrong with signing a 27 year old offensive cornerstone now and rolling the dice?
No way that an MLB team that can handle 130-150 million dollar payrolls should ever pull a fire sale rebuild. The league isn’t set up that way for large markets.
Yeah, gut the team and don’t spend money. Why? Is it a better idea to just ignore FA, hoard the money, repel fans, and forcibly suck? They have the dollars, so spend them. I’m not saying max out the credit cards, I’m saying fill a need–Fielder is a MASSIVE need for a team with not lefty power or 1B.
I understand it is cherry picking stats
Fielder 2010: 32 HRs 83 RBI
C Pena 2011 28 HRs 80 RBI.
Ryan Braun doesn’t come with him.
And today, Dec 23, he is looking for 10/255. You think it’s a bad idea to pass so far???
Trade who? Besides Castro, Garza is the only guy who would net you anything worthwhile. And anyway, you can’t just trade everyone and hope to plug in the holes with minor leaguers and bottom-of-the barrel FAs. That’s just going to piss off a fanbase that’s already getting alienated.
i agree to a point i think there are a few young promising players (campana, cashner, barney(maybe))and also keep some players who have experience (DeJesus (good), Reed Johnson, Dempster (to help be a metor to young pitchers), and MAYBE Byrd) everyone else cold be traded to repleish the farm system the Hendry destroyed with over-hualed contracts and horrible trades
This is necessary while they still have players with trade value. Their farm is a joke and needs a complete overhaul and this is the only way to do it. It will make it much faster and easier to rebuild than solely through the draft.
Which makes total sense considering they just signed an aging reliever.
i know man. they say they’ll rebuild, but then they go out and give a guy a one-year contract
truly confounding
1 year contract makes sense. He’s just there to fill out the 25 man roster while they accumulate prospects.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOSH
Lmao biggest Whooooosh ever
I agree, buying low so as to spin guys off at the deadline for a prospect or two is dumb.
Clearly they should… i don’t know dance a jig and whistle, rather than take advantage of any opportunities.
Logic is fun!
I wouldn’t be mad if everyone on the ML roster but Starlin were dealt.
Castro and Cashner. Everyone else can go! I am looking forward to seeing what LaHair can do.
Good point. Cashner could be a future closer.
cashner is a starter. he went through the minors as a starter for a reason. so a rotator cuff injury is scaring you away from what was a promising front-end starter rising through the minors? get guts. closers are drastically less valuable to a team than a starter. which is why the rangers and reds came to their senses and settled on making their respective young stud arms starters.
Whoa. Simmer down. I do believe I wrote COULD. It’s also nice of you to assume that I feel this way b/c of a shoulder injury. We’re talking about a guy who has made ONE career start, and will most likely need ’12 to at least stretch himself out. I’m not sure if he’s been doing that this offseason, but even if he has, he’ll have to show that he can be a guy who makes quality starts, and doesn’t just take up a spot in the rotation because he throws hard and is 25. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Cashner working out of the pen in ’12 as a late-innings reliever or even setup man for Marmol.
No, you don’t keep a guy with shoulder issues in case he’s a future closer. However, he could be a solid starter going forward, if he gets his arm strength up to more than one 6-inning start.
I mean, they have Chris Carpenter as a future closer, if they want.
So, a guy with shoulder issues is out of the question as a potential closer, but it’s okay to turn him into a starter? I think his pitching repertoire (throws hard, 3-pitch pitcher) lends to him being a pretty decent closer, if the Cubs ever went that route.
No, making a guy an untouchable because he could close for a team you want to gut is my issue. I’m saying they should see how he does as a starter. There’s a reason to keep younger starters, but not so much with relievers (especially when you have an alternative like Carpenter).
Okay, I see. I honestly don’t think anyone is untouchable, but I guess Cashner is someone I’d like to see develop, mainly because we didn’t see much at all from him in ’11.
Dear lord, he doesn’t have “Shoulder issues,” he’s been injured once in his entire career. It’s just as likely this is never an issue again as it is that it comes up in the future.
doing it right
Who among the 29 teams is going to want Carlos Mármol?
He’s owed a cool 7 million in ’12 and almost 10 million in ’13.
The Cubs are going to have to eat a lot of that salary to get rid of him!
Soriano and Marmol to the O’s for Kevin Gregg
Cubs eat all of the salary the former Cubs
Duquette declares victory over the person who replaced him in Boston!
If you want the prospects to rebuild, why wouldn’t the Cubs eat alot of salary? They are going to pay the salary anyway, while getting little or no return. Eat the salary, take the prospect.
Marmol is far from being useless. He had a 3.54 FIP. Yes, he is a high wire act but he does a great job of erasing most of his BB’s with a crazy KO rate.
I hear you about the Strikeouts, but the guy self destructs and that’s bad for business when you’re a closer.
he is just being over used. He has pitched a ton of innings the past few years. If Dale can keep his innings in check I expect a rebound season and eventually a trade at the deadline.
Chi City Sports misses you 🙁
That’s dumb. Really, Kevin Gregg? He’s the worst person in Cubs history to ever attempt a save…well, except maybe LaTroy Hawkins.
Marmol had one sketchy year, so 2/$27 million is too much for him when you see Paps getting about $50 million and Madson maybe in-line for $40 million?
I think seeing Gregg in a Cubs jersey again would make 75% of Cubs fans jump off the Hancock Building.
I don’t want that to happen. That would be terrible.
However, it would be nice if Kevin Gregg played elsewhere in 2012.
I haven’t the foggiest what Showalter saw in him in the first place.
Bartman………….lol
Absolutely the right thing to do. I’d argue, with a lot of other people, that it should have been done sooner.
MLB needs the amnesity rule like the NBA has now.
Or non-guaranteed contracts like the NFL. I’m sure the Yankees would’ve released Burnett 100 times by now.
No, only for teams with payrolls under the luxury tax, or maybe under $125 million.
Teams that use their financial might to bully smaller teams deserve the filth they grab from the bowels of free agency.
Yeah…you clearly didn’t sense the sarcasm in my reply. I wasn’t trying to state that I somehow feel sorry for the Yanks or any other team (like the Cubs) who squander money on FAs.
I was just saying that some teams who have money issues should maybe get an amnesty every 5-10 years or something. Just one, to keep small-market teams from getting crippled.
I get that point, but I don’t think that’d be fair. All of the teams have ample opportunity to evaluate talent and negotiate deals. I don’t think a small market team is necessarily at a disadvantage when it comes to this. It’d kinda be like giving the impoverished more time to pay their taxes, in my opinion. Well, I think that’s a comparable scenario, at least.
Complete rebuild? This is a complete destruction. Was Epstein brought in to create a winner or destroy this organization completely, because he sure is DOING JUST THAT. Yeah, a complete rebuild, so in other words, for the next 5 years, nothing but the cellar, and close to 100 loses each year. Yeah that a boy Theo. What the heck was in that clam chowder he’s been munching on in Boston (go back, NOW).
Do you honestly think the Cubs can compete, even with adding Fielder? They have a terrible rotation, bullpen, and no elite hitters. This is exactly what they need to do. I understand reacting negatively to hearing the news that your team is going to rebuild, but don’t bash the person making the right decision. Like someone said up top, it should have been done earlier.
If they had added Fielder and Beltran, together with Castro, they could have at least been respectable. Why does a major market team like the Cubs, need to whip themselves with a cat of nine tails, while waiting for the farm system to produce?
So you would spend another $200 mil + to be decent?
As a Yankee fan, you should know.
Yeah, the Yankees are certainly “decent”
That’s what also-rans get to call themselves.
What?
That statement was mystifying?
Definition of DECENT
1
archaic a : appropriate b : well-formed : handsome
2
a : conforming to standards of propriety, good taste, or morality
Calling the Yankees “decent” and an also-ran is ridiculous.
Teams that make the post season (especially ones that make them essentially every year) are not also-rans.
The Orioles are also-rans, the Royals are also-rans, the Cubs are also-rans, the Yankees are not also-rans.
To call any team but the champion, an also-ran, is completely appropriate.
No it’s not, it’s ridiculous, and it’s also not the way the term is generally used.
Haha….I see what you’re trying to do. How smart of you. Trying to compare a team that hasn’t won a WS in a century vs 1 that’s won 6 in the last 15 years. Or better, trying to compare a team that barely makes it to the PLAYOFFS in 3 times in the last 20 years vs one that has made it about 15x in the same period. Wow…how irrelevant you are.
So spending money pays off? Yeah, not my point at all. D.S.
Quick, name the 2-3 best position players on the Yankees the last two years.
OK I’ll respond to your demand like an organ grinder monkey you A.W.
The correct answer was “Cano, Gardner, and Granderson.” Two guys who came up through the Yankees’ system (and are cheap) and one guy who was traded for by the Yankees using prospects they drafted and developed (and who is relatively cheap).
Yep, it’s definitely spending all that money that keeps them in contention.
and they spent big to land Texeria, Rodriguez, and Sabathia, among others. Again. the point is that it takes both expensive free agents and prospects to build a consistent winner.
But big free agents without (or before you have) a good farm is nothing but a huge waste of money.
The yankees arent simply spending. Cano, joba, hughes, nova, used prospects for granderson, buenelos betances comming.
boom. roasted
i’m a jays fan defending the yankees, but no. the yankees spend $200mill+ to be the best team in the AL over the past 5 years.
Wow. Respectable. Nothing like aiming for 79-83.
But 61-101 is what the high ticket price paying fans deserve?
You are saying Cub fans want a team that will finish 79-83 every year?? I’d take 61-101, only 10 games worse than 2011, with hope for the future instead of 79-83 for eternity. But maybe Cub fans a satisfied with 79 wins…
So how many tickets are you buying for that 61 win season?
Same as last year. How many tickets are they going to sell in 2015 coming off 6 straight 70 ish win seasons???
exactly, the smart fans will come out to games, you do have to. But u can show up when we are perennial winners lol i wont mind. when we are 90+ winners from 2014-2024 then see how many tickets we make up
OMG the yankees have produced home grown talent to supplement their spending. I knew cubs fans would overreact to the word rebuild. The cubs are just simply gathering prospects for their current short term assets into long term assets. if we added darvish and fielder we would still sucks. Cubs fans need to take a look in the mirror. The team is over paid, slow, old, cant play defense, BUT hey, marlon byrd runs around the bases FAST so we should love him. pshh. Major market teams cant buy wins. Not even the yankees. When you band aid a horrible team. You have a chance to be a flash in the pan…sure is that what you want? 1 hit wonder. 2005 white sox. That tried it again, nabbing adam dunn, peavy, rios, nick swisher. Now look at them..A COMPLETE MESS.
If they had added Fielder and Beltran, they would be back to where they were last year — maybe a win or two above. Beltran is no significant improvement over Ramirez and plays a position where the Cubs actually have hope of being able to insert some minor league talent. Fielder is a clear improvement over Pena, but he does not turn this team into anything good. We still have NO starting pitching, very little of which was ever available this offseason.
There’s no point. If we’re going to suck either way I’d rather suck slightly harder and get the better draft pick. This team is not a couple signings away from contention. If you wanted to do it entirely through free agency I would say we are four MAJOR deals away (1B, 3B, 2xSP with high-end talent at least) — and half of that was not even available.
the bullpen’s avg…the starters are avg…the offense is dreadful.
It’s not a matter of competing by signing Fielder. It’s a matter of having a major building block there for nothing but cash (and a comp. pick) and getting it. It expediates the rebuilding process when you can get a franchise cornerstone without touching your farm.
“Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports suggests agent Scott Boras is “gunning for” an average salary of $25.5MM for Prince Fielder”
8/204. You in??
It is at the expense of you farm. It takes a pick.paying now would be pointless. Fielder doesnt change the team and isnt a building block in 2014-2020 hes gonna be the soriano, in fact, a FAT soriano that we cant wait to get off the books. BUT WAIT he had a great 5 year run from 2012-15
Because Hendry’s method was bringing home the World Championships.
The Cubs have Castro, Garza, a prospect in Jackson, and NOTHING ELSE. A complete rebuild is their only hope.
this is epstein’s biggest obstacle frankly: people like you who are in complete denial about the state of the cubs franchise. trained well by hendry’s madness, many of you think you are a few big contracts away from competing again
but you aren’t. the cubs are a mess and — listen close — hicks did not hire epstein to make a run a title. he was hired to rebuild the entire organization so that the cubs became perennial contenders, a team that makes a run every year. that takes time. it takes a young core of talent and a strong farm & development system behind it. to get there, you have to lose for awhile and build from the bottom-up. then and only then should the cubs use their financial clout to bring in top free agent talent and extend young talent developed within
i know this concept is foreign and scary, but if you can just shut yourself up for a bit, you’ll very much enjoy the long-term results
couldn’t have said it better, notsureifsrs. the fact that it’s gotten to this stage shows just how badly hendry mishandled the organization
Most teams can’t spend what the Cubs can. If you’re a Pitt/Oak/SD/TB fan, enjoy building your team. You have no choice.
If you’re a big market team you pay for proven players WHILE building a team.
At the top end of estimates, Cubs are committed to 90 million for 2012. But most expected them to spend about the same as last year: $135 million.
The Cubs can’t find enough pieces for 45 million to at least have a chance to win in 2012?
A lot of teams don’t have PAYROLLS of 45 million!
There’s no rule that says you have to build cheap to win. There’s nothing that says you have to develop a rookie into a stud across three seasons.
Let a loser develop him on the cheap. Buy the stud. Get his best five years. (Age range: 27-32 years old is good prime rib)
Because last I checked, the Cubs can outspend the NL Central by a margin of the Pittsburgh Pirates.
So why can’t Hoyer & Co. work a little magic with more leftover payroll than Jed had total in San Diego?
Because when fans fork over 43 bucks a ticket to watch their team lose they certainly don’t have to shut up.
no one said they have to shut up. they are welcome to stomp their feet and insist that they be able to have their cake and eat it too. but it’s just not possible
you say “let the small markets enjoy building their clubs; they have no choice”
again, this is what you all don’t understand: you don’t have a choice either. if it’s a perennial contender you want, you simply can’t have it both ways. building that kind of club is incredibly difficult and it takes a farm system you do not yet have
let’s say you keep all the guys you have now and “buy the stud”, as you suggest. spend money because you have money. with a mediocre roster, you’re a winning club in 2012 but ultimately lose to one of several better teams in the end. in the meantime your farm gets no better (could get worse), you won’t trade players that help the team in the present and you have no prospects to trade for talent either so you’re now entirely dependent on free agency. you’re forced to overbid on talent to even stay competitive and in a few years the ship will be sunk by bad contracts and inflexibility
your name is jim hendry and you are a failure. we know how that story ends. we are at the end of that story right now
what you have to do now is what theo epstein already did in boston. build from the bottom up
Theo inherited a team with Pedro, Varitek and Manny that won 93 games in 2002.
They never lost less than 86 games in his entire tenure.
That’s not ground up. The Red Sox never rebuilt. Theo worked on the farm system AND contended for 9 years.
He has less to spend now but has the same plan in Chicago.
“Total rebuild” is a bluff, the same as “Cubs were hopeful until the end on Pujols/Darvish bidding.”
Bluffs. Misdirection. Garbage reporting.
Paying $135 million for another 70-game winner? Now THAT’S hard to believe.
You’re right about what Theo inherited in Boston, but he doesn’t have the same luxury this time around. He doesn’t have the core in place to build around and, as you already noted, he doesn’t have the same money to spend either.
That’s fair. I just don’t know how we’re going to spend 45 million dollars more to lose. I don’t get it.
They shouldn’t. they have guys who can be traded without having to pay their contracts and would still bring back good amounts of talent. Obviously they have some player that they would have to eat money if they want to get anything worth while for them, but if it means success in the future that should be something that they are willing to do.
They could trade Garza without sending any money, they could trade Soriano and save a couple $M, they could trade Zambrano and save probably $8-9M, they could trade Dempster and save a few $M, they could trade Byrd and save a couple $M, they could probably trade Soto without sending any money. And get decent-to-good prospects for some of those guys, and top prospects for at least one of them.
Think what you will, but it’s definitely not garbage reporting. Kaplan is one of the best sportswriters in Chicago, if not thee best. He wouldn’t write something like that unless he had credible reason to.
Yeah, that’s harsh, I actually like Kaplan.
I should have said, “garbage report” because I think he’s being used, unintentionally or not, to spread a team message. He may believe what he writes. But he could still be wrong.
Ask Nick Cafardo of Boston how many times he’s been “wrong” on behalf of Team Epstein, spreading (mis)information.
And whether Kaplan is a sucker for believing the leak or he knew what he was doing, I suspect the idea of a “complete and total rebuild” is a garbage report.
Ask yourself, why would any team want that to be known? How does it help?
I don’t think it adds up.
And I don’t think Team Epstein is fond of putting a 70-game winner on the field in his first year.
Rah. Fight. Meh.
Well, you do have a point. It doesn’t add up. It’s definitely not an advantage to have teams know you’re rebuilding. But that’s what leads me to believe Kaplan’s source wasn’t in the Cubs organization and Theo isn’t trying to feed information to a popular sportswriter to somehow bluff the public and fans.
Epstein is obviously a pretty shrewd baseball executive. He’s made it clear that he intends to be, not necessarily unconventional, but unpredictable, so much so that the only thing that seems to be certain is his willingness to make unpopular decisions. What makes him such a great exec though, is that he’s the kind of guy to establish plan and execute it ruthlessly. That said, while I wouldn’t put the idea of him leaking info to deek the media past him, I don’t think he’s quite that nefarious.
Probably the only scenario that makes any kind of sense is the original premise of Kaplan breaking a story with the help of an annonymous MLB source, which I think may be some other general manager that has a good relationship with Epstein and Kaplan, perhaps from one of the teams the Cubs have recently been discussing various trade proposals with, maybe Jocketty or Daniels?
That’s just me speculating of course, but I think the report is genuine, and really when you examine the idea, it makes a ton of sense for Theo to really go all in with the idea of bringing a World Series, I mean God Particle, to Chicago. Theo knows he’s going to constantly be a lightning rod in Chicago, win or lose, and that he’ll eventually be either exiled and banished from Chicago or have an entire half of the city named after him if he actually does manage to do the impossible. So what better way to begin the first year of the rest of his career than by trying to clean the slate as much as you can. If you’re gonna take the heat, you might as well own it.
And I agree Theo wouldn’t just toss out some 70-win ballclub on the field in his first year in Chicago. That’s why I’m really curious to see how the dominoes fall. Even if it is true that the team is rebuilding that doesn’t mean he’s dead set on tossing absolutely everyone on the team off the ship, nor does it preclude them from making a move for a big piece in an unexpected situation.
I mean, it couldn’t hurt. At this point, I’d be interested in voodoo or getting a bunch evangelical players and hiring Tim Tebow to be the team’s spiritual guru.
Light that Molotov and let’s set this sucker ablaze.
Does theo have experience building from the ground up?
If you and I had the power to make it happen I’d take Epstein back in an instant.
Going to start off by saying that I am not a Cubs fan. With that said I really dont see why Cubs fans seem so negative about this move. They were clearly going nowhere anytime soon with their current roster. Even if they added fielder they would still be at best a .500 team. This way they can hopefully trade Garza for a couple of high ceiling prospects who will be ready to contribute when the Cubs have shed all of their bad contracts in a few years. I also don’t understand why everyone assumes that no one else on the cubs roster has any value. Dempster and Marmol both had very disapointing seasons last year but if they have good first halves to the season I’m sure they can find a contender who can use them for a playoff run. Marmol’s contract is not that bad and if he rebounds to his previous numbers I think he could bring a pretty good prospect or two back. As far as Soriano, your just screwed unless they pay about $40-$45 million to get rid of him. Also, if you think about it, when the Cubs have shed all of their bad contracts and traded their more expensive players in the next two years that means they will have about $100 million to spend in free agency assuming they keep their payroll level where it currently is.
Every contract other than Soriano and 1 year of Marmol is over after this year. Crying poverty is garbage.
LOL did Cubs fans really think Theo was just going to snap and fingers, and *poof!* 100 wins? Your team is terrible right now. A few FA signings won’t make it a contender. Yes, I can only imagine the plight and struggles involved in being a Cubs fan, but you still need to look at things realistically.
“….
nothing but the cellar, and close to 100 loses each year”.
ummmm….91 loses last year when they were “competing”. This team has tons of dead weight and not enough talent. Getting rid of vets who aren’t going to be good or on the team in 2 or 3 years makes sense. Why plug holes that will leak again in 2013 when you can rip it all down and lay new foundation and lay piping. Yes…..I did manage to say “lay piping”. Cue the cheesy porn music now.
Is it really a destruction?? They’re knocking down a house that’s been burnt to the ground. No sense putting wall paper on a house with no walls. The Cubs are bad from the majors to AA. Once you get below that, there’s a slight glimmer….
I wouldn’t say he’s wrecking a house that’s already burnt down. More like lighting a match in a meth house.
you have no idea how smart you sound saying theo go back to boston.
You must be joking, right? You see how well the Jim Hendry way of doing things worked out for us, didn’t you? Trust Theo and his posse, they know what they are doing. They didn’t have to do this in Boston because when Theo took over it was a 93 win team with a stronger farm system. We have no major-league ready “stars” in our system. Brett Jackson may eventually be a solid average regular, but he strikes out way too much to be considered a star.
chil man think about it after he builds the team up the team will contend for years to come who else in the divison will be able to contend after we get a core nucleus
Brewers: will be getting older have alot of signings that will be old in a few years
Cardinals: will be getting older plus they keep signing older players
Reds: players will be just leaving the peaks of their careers
Pirates: they always suck and now the have a bunch of contracts that may end up being bad for them when the Cubs become great
so in the end the Cubs can contend for years to come if they rebuild
Sure the Astros lost a bunch of games but I just don’t see how the Cubs are that much better, especially considering those horrible contracts for next year.
So if the Cubs can be ready by 2014 so can my Stros.
I don’t really know what the Astros have going for them. Do they have any top prospects? And if they have one, do they have two?
Cosart and Singleton from the Phillies. Supposedly Jordan Lyles, DeShields, and maybe JD Martinez will surprise the pack. Same b.s. hopes that everyone else pins on their prospects so I don’t see why the Astros are any different.
Because the Astros are always ranked last in farm systems. They have no major league talent, and barely any minor league talent. With Wade gone, that could easily change. So far, I like the Melancon trade.
You like trading a young, developing, talented closer for a pitcher who will be out of baseball in three years and a back up infielder?
Weiland has a back-of-the-rotation ceiling and a major league reliever floor, and Lowrie is likely a good-not-great starter if he stays healthy.
I still think Boston came out on the winning end when all is said and done, but it isn’t nearly as one sided as you make it out to be.
The Sox made a great deal. No guys with no value to their team shipped off for a closer with a great future. As a Yankees fan, I hope Melancon does well. But then again, I also hope he blows every game.
Didn’t think about what I said. I should have said, the Astros made out well. They just acquired their Opening Day starter, and their number three hitter. Hahaha.
Astros will be in the AL then though, pretty big disadvantage.
The difference is that the Cubs have 2-3 players they can trade for good hauls of prospects, which jump starts their rebuilding by several years.
Not just an againg reliever, but an again reliver still recovering from TJ surgery. This is STUPID. They should have kept Henry, he was doing good enough, keeping them out last place. Theo’s directing them to last place.
for now but once again look at the long term and not the short term…jeez do you know anything about baseball
Sort of nitpicking, but I don’t see how you can consider Byrd’s contract to be an albatross.
Well if they do trade Castro I find the padres to be a great fit. Maybe Rizzo, Gyorko, Decker, Blanks, and Simon Castro.
What are the Padres going to do with Castro? They stink too!
Ideally Padres will be contending sooner than the Cubs.
Hahahaha…you’re right there is always the Ideal.
Maybe the Padres and Cubs should have a merger?
Haha, “Life of Brian” taught me to be positive. Ehhh, I’d much prefer the Mariners if I had the choice.
I don’t think so. Castro is an average only hitter with terrible defense. Way over-rated, IMO.
He’s also only 21.
easily the best thing about him
Well, there is the term “upside”…
I’m not saying he doesn’t have upside. I’m saying he’s over-rated, which I think is fairly obvious.
How exactly is he overrated? Do “experts” consider him elite already? I think even the most gullible Cubs fan would at the most say he’s very good.
Really? Are you a cub’s fan? I always hear about how great he is, one of the best in the league, for sure (that BA sure is nice!). Fact remains he’s a good contact hitter with a little power (that could very well develop) who can’t play shortstop.
I’m not a Cub’s fan. I am a Cubs fan, though. And if you’re gonna base your opinion off of others’ clearly biased opinions, I don’t know what to tell ya.
Debate done. When you have to bow down to changing one minor grammatical mistake in my post, it proves you have nothing else of substance to say.
This was a debate? You said he’s overrated because of a few biased opinions? Lose the GOP debate strategy, friendo…
You’re right. 20 year old (at the time) 2nd year players with over 200 hits in a season, are a dime a dozen.
that’s what i meant. it wasn’t an insult. most 21 year olds are doing well if they hit like castro has…in AA
Ah, I gotcha.
Bad opinion…
Please explain. Does he have good defense? Does he walk any? What?
Most people his age are developing in the minor leagues. He’s doing it while leading the league in hits.
1. He’s 21
2. Take any college SS and put them in the MLB, they’ll make errors too, Castro is the age of a college Senior.
3. He hit 10 HR last year, pretty good for a 21 year old.
4. He is a pretty good base-stealer too.
What does age have to do with power?
Typically, unless the player is just a pure hitter, the player will develop more and get stronger and hit more homers when they reach their prime, which Castro is years away from.
A lot actually. As guys acclimate to the big leagues, they get stronger, faster, and often quicker at the plate. They work with better coaches in better facilities. Plenty of projectability in a guy with Castro’s body type, particularly given he’s still just 21.
Maybe an extreme example, but Shawn Green hit ONE home run in over 400 at-bats as a 19 year-old.
Six years later: 35
Three years after that: 49
I definitely get your point, but I just don’t think power can be directly associated to a player’s age. I think body type plays a factor, too. I’m not sure if Castro will ever hit for that much power. I see him being a guy who hits 40+ 2Bs a year, though.
Starlin Castro is one of the pecies that will stay with the Cubs just saying
about damn time to tear it down and do it right buyin it has never worked for them!!
and garza can be suspect himself on a day to day basis
as an actual cubs fan, who is used to losing and knows what it takes to win (just kidding). this is refreshing. no one on this team outside of Castro is worth keeping. Deal what you can now, sign the missing pieces between ’12 and ’13 and you will have a great team and farm system from there on out. for the cubs fans talking bad about a general manager who is actually managing an organization to win and not appease the idiotic fanbase, shut up.
if you want the cubs to win, its not going to happen in ’12. build a base and grow a team. when was the last time a team won a championship by signing all the top free agents? i didnt see the red sox or phillies in the world series last year.
You’re right, but the NL Central is a lot easier to buy than the AL or NL East
Agreed. Everyone should be available. Garza will never be more valuable than he is today. I think the Yankee and the Blue Jays should be Theo’s first calls. Getting a haul of prospects in return, before spring training, is the way to go.
If Garza comes up with a sore shoulder or elbow, then it’s too late.
the thing that bothers me is that no one seems to think that campana is any good
File under: no shlit, Sherlock (it’s been 103 years)
Dig deeper, Watson!
hope u mean 1 or 2 names out of those 5 u named because theres no way the padres would give up all 5 lol..
Good decision, that’s what I suggested here months ago. That’s what they should’ve planned going in to the winter meetings.
Get as many prospects as possible, get rid of bad contracts and let the young players get experience. Build group up and Cubs will succeed!
No more Fielder sweepstake is a good decision by cubs FO.
Maybe as his market continues to shrink. along with the length of his contract, the Prince of Pork will put the fork down and get a dietician and a trainer.
welcome to the club cubbie fans
they started the club
Good for the Cubs. This is what should be done. It’s better to build a strong team from the ground up than to keep investing in overpriced players just to try to get close to a .500 record.
They will be alot better in the long run for doing this.
It’s about time , all the people upset you will understand why this is a good idea in 2-3 years when you start to see the signs of prospects flourishing and bad contracts off the books, so much more payroll flexibility etc. Now trade Garza to the Jays please?
So is Brett Jackson the next in the Patterson/Pie tradition of Cubs CF prospects with big swings and little patience?
uh… no?
Considering he has about an 14% walk rate, I’d say the little patience isn’t a concern.
If the Cubs are actually about to embark on a rebuild then it would make sense to go after the Padres Anthony Rizzo. Put together a package that would get him to the Chicago, that kid is a beast and would put up some impressive power numbers in Wrigly IMHO.
I’ve always known were we in “rebuilding” mode, i’m fine with that…at least for next year. But can we at least keep Castro, Barney, Campana, Garza & Marmol? At least go after Fielder & Cespedes?
Campana would be great as a pinch runner and bat boy.
Yeah he’s the fastest guy on the team, we don’t have much speed just him, Castro & probably Barney as well.
Campana’s bat and arm are what’s keeping him from getting decent playing time.
Yup.
i call bull
You’re joking, right?
i agree for the most part but marmol and garza can be traded and maybe get only one of those two
Are the Cubbies shopping Darwin Barney would be a good fit for the Cardinals.
I doubt they’d trade him to their rivals…but as a Cards fan I’m fine with Descalso/Greene until Kolten Wong is ready in a year or two. Plus I wouldn’t want to give the Cubs any decent prospects (because they would want someone of value in return)
Cards don’t have much to send in return. Their only real prospects over the past few years are on the team now.
It’s only after you’ve lost everything that you’re free to do anything, after all.
Onto the meat of the post: would the Cubs under any circumstance consider trading Castro seeing the return for young players with lots of control (ie. Latos, Gonzalez – no jokes, please) at positions that have very few promising players on the market? Do they have any promising SS prospects in the lower levels?
Javier Baez, who’s only 19, appears to be a pretty good SS prospect. He’ll probably play 3B in the majors, though.
Ah, thanks.
Royals,pirates,a’s,orioles,padres,mariners,astros,rays and the rest of the teams rebuilding….NEVER WIN freeagents get you to the promise land my friend.
Rangers?
Its not like the Rays have made the playoffs three out of four times and the others(besides the O’s, mariners, and Astros) have very bright futures or anything.
Rays have been in the playoffs 2 years in a row…
Can’t really speak about other teams but rebuilding worked out pretty well for the Phillies.
… and the Rays are pretty good.
there is 1 player from the early 2000 Tigers left. Our team has gotten pretty good. Cubs need this. At least they have means to do so. I feel so bad for the A’s, trading all their players cause they cant get a stadium
Yeah…that’s gonna get deleted.
it took them over a decade to realize this. cubs are a complete failure and joke.
So you’re insinuating that this was a lost decade for the Cubs?
Why didn’t the Cubs move Garza to the Reds? SD got the sweet deal, while the Flubs sat on the side line. Alonso would answer the hole at 1b, Grandal could step in and start at C, Volquez is a decent fifth starter.
I don’t mind the rebuilding, but I don’t want Fielder. Let someone else overpay
Overpaying in terms of dollars per year or years?
Is this serious?
lol how does “2014” make Cubs fans happy. Too bad they couldn’t have just won it in 2003, or better yet, 2008 where they probably had the best team on paper.
#1. I’m sick of hearing about prospects. Our prospects work out about 10% of the time. What makes other team’s prospects different? Prospects are suspects. He hit .141 last year. I know its a small sample size. We don’t know if he’s really got true MLB potential, or if he is a “4A” player.
#2. I hate the idea of rebuilding. Hate it. But, at the same time…what’s right isn’t always popular, and what’s popular isn’t always right. I just think guys like Garza and Marshall are valuable to the rebuilding project.
Ummmmmm what?
Why do you hate rebuilding? It worked out pretty well for Philadelphia, Texas, Tampa Bay, the Yankees, Atlanta, among others.
You may not like prospects but the more prospects you can acquire the more chances you’ll have at hitting on them. A strong farm system is the key to sustained success.
Long story short. I’m just a whiner. As a Cubs fan, for years we hear about how great our farm players are and them not being anywhere near what they are. I guess that’s where the Cubs differ from all the teams you’ve listed.
I’m overreacting because I hate hearing Garza’s name in rumors and then hearing they may not go for Fielder (which it appears he will eventually wind up with someone sucky, anyway, so why not the Cubs?)
I’d like to see the Cubs have more than just Castro to build around.
Chances are that this will eventually be successful too, but where some of you who aren’t Cubs fans look at it like a good thing, some of us Cubs fans love it, where as some like myself just have that feeling of…”oh boy, we thought we sucked before.”
Seriously though…hope it works out, but the next few years just seem…no fun. I can’t for the life of me just sit through 2012 and 2013 thinking of how we “could be competing by 2014.”
Gave you a ‘like’ for honesty.
Look at it this way: if the Cubs trade Garza (or whoever) for a few prospects, and a couple of them are major league ready, or maybe got a taste of the majors last year, and will be under team control for 6 (or whatever) more years, then they will have those other players to build around that you want them to have.
Signing free agents isn’t the way to get players to build around because they are always more expensive and, if not at, are much closer to their decline years.
The rangers got there but didn’t win.. Trades + freeagents =world series win
No, they really don’t. Building a young core group of players THEN adding the right complementary pieces through trades and free agents.
Unless you don’t want sustained success.
I didn’t know that the rays won the w.s …what year was that.. The pirates and the rays have the same amount of rings the last 3 years…0
since the cubs trade and free agent signing theory has worked for the last 100 years…
Since the Cubs drafting has also worked for the last 100 years.
As a Cubs fan, you really shouldn’t be unimpressed by the Texas Rangers, who won back to back pennants and a Rays team that went to the World Series in 2008.
Those teams have put themselves in a position to have a shot at a title for the next 3-10 years.
Even the Yankees and Red Sox had to build a core of young players. I feel sorry for you that this organization has conned you into believing free agency and bad contracts are the keys to success. When Theo Epstein is done with this franchise, they’ll be a perennial contender.
Alternate headline: “Cubs Finally F____ing Get It.”
Ryan Dempster and Marlon Byrd both scream “Trade deadline candidate” so they’ll be gone easy
Good for the Cubs. This will also be a pretty good test to see how good of a baseball person Epstein really is.
2014? 2014? Really?
Ok Cubs fans, go home. It’s December of 2011 but you won’t watch a winner for two years. Please continue to pay 43 bucks a ticket to watch a loser for two seasons.
I don’t think so.
If the Cubs are gonna spend $135 million why would fans wait two years for a contender? That’s money-laundering in plain sight.
Either these latest reports on the Cubs are wrong or they’re not going to spend even close to last year’s payroll.
And if the Cubs aren’t spending the money they make, fans get to ask: what are they paying for? Because paying for hope two years from now is (really smurfing) expensive.
I could be a Pirates fan for two years, pay less, and be just as likely to win (Pittsburgh finished ahead of the Cubs last year.)
You must not want a sustained winner because that’s what Theo Epstein is trying to build. If you want to believe this team is a big contract or two away from a title, you need to learn something about baseball.
The teams that win built their teams through their farm systems. Two years or three years from now, the Cubs could be something special.
Like the Yankees? Red Sox? Dodgers? Angels? Rangers? Phillies?
You’re telling me all those big market teams compete every year because of their farm system?
Remind me, when were they rebuilding?
I know, let’s ask those teams to compete on $50 million dollar payrolls–I’m sure they won’t mind. They don’t really use that extra money for anything other than investing in their farm systems to build perennial contenders.
He-LLO. Wake. Up.
This isn’t stock car racing, it’s formula one. Money matters.
You don’t have to like it. But money is the reason you don’t see big market teams blow up the team every few years like they do in Smallsburg.
And if you don’t believe it, then why do small market teams try to trade major league proven talent every year? (Tip: because they can’t afford it.)
If you can’t rebuild AND contend in a big market, you don’t deserve to have a big league team.
The Cubs are loaded with bad contracts and STILL have 45 million to spend. That’s not a “contract or two” worth of spending money.
That’s a 25-man roster in Oakland, Pittsburgh or San Diego.
The Cubs are so bad they can still spend what other teams do for their entire payroll and NOT contend?
Wow. That Kool-Aid sucks.
The 2012 Cubs are worse than last year. They have 45 million to spend. It’s not too soon to ask when they get better.
That’s Theo’s job.
It makes more sense that the “rebuild” leaks are misdirection so teams don’t know what Team Epstein will do. He likes to stay unpredictable.
But building another 70-game winner with a $135 million payroll? That’s not unpredictable, that’s unacceptable.
Most of those teams you listed had to go through decades of suckage before they become perennial contenders because they never tore the team down and rebuilt.
“You don’t have to like it. But money is the reason you don’t see big market teams blow up the team every few years like they do in Smallsburg.” The money is the reason they don’t have to rebuild every few years, but a team in the Cubs’ position does need to do it once.
If building a 70 game winner with a $135 mil payroll is ‘unacceptable’ it would seem the first 230 or so lines contradict your last sentence. If you’re against 70 win $135 mil teams, you should be in favor of what Theo is planning. We’ve seen what the current way produces. Which is, ‘predictably’, 2 70 win/$135 mil teams. To keep the current course IS 70 win/$135 mil season after 70 win $135 mil season after 70 win/$135 mil season after….
They do compete every year, want to know why?
Philadelphia:
Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Cole Hamels, Carlos Ruiz, Shane Victorino + a few complementary pieces.
Boston:
Dustin Pedroia, Kevin Youkilis, Jonathan Papelbon (I’m counting him since he hasn’t pitched for Philly yet), Jon Lester, Clay, among others.
New York:
Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada
Rangers:
Elvis Andrus, Michael Young, CJ Wilson, Josh Hamilton, Derek Holland, Nefali Feliz, Nelson Cruz, among others
Angels:
Jered Weaver, Kendres Morales, Ervin Santana (I’m not really sure about their history, if someone has more names to add, feel free too).
Dodgers:
Matt Kemp, Clayton Kershaw, Andre Either, Chad Billingsly, James Loney
____________________
Why did I name those players? All home grown plays that developed into the nuclues of those teams that enabled them to be contenders long term.
The nucleus comes first, then the complementary free agents. I’m just going to talk about the Phillies. After they implemented their core of players, they built around them. Bringing in players like Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Roy Oswalt, Joe Blanton, Hunter Pence, Jayson Werth, etc.
If you build strictly by spending money, you’re just going to go backwards as a franchise. You don’t spend money because you can, you spend money for the right reasons.
When did those teams rebuild? Maybe you need a history lesson. For a decade, other than 1993, the Phillies were the joke of the National League.
By 2007, the following players were traded (notably): Curt Schilling, Scott Rolen, Jim Thome, Bobby Abreu, Placido Polanco, and the list goes on to include some other names but like I said, notably.
Texas went bankrupt and had to trade Alex Rodriguez, Chan Ho Park, Mark Texiera. Their foundation of their 2010 and 2011 teams was basically from the Texiera trade.
Who said they were going to spend 135 in payroll? The plan was to spend close to that much on baseball expenses when they were planning on spending a ton of money on the draft and international prospects. With the new CBA, they had to completely change their strategy.
Ok, something that should probably be cleared up. For those of you including guys like Darwin Barney and Starlin Castro in your trade scenarios should probably realize that they are already part of the rebuilding plan. They are going to be the veteran leaders when the big prospects come up. The guys that will get traded are the ones that the team has no use for anymore and don’t fit into the future plans. I highly doubt guys like Soto, Barney or Castro fit into that category.
Soto will start getting expensive the next couple of years through arbitration for the Cubs. This year would be the best time to trade him. Barney had the great start last season, but fell off the earth in the second half. I don’t think he has much trade value and will be a nice cheap piece for the next couple of years. Castro will stay, he is pretty much the only untouchable on the team.
Soto should have been the backup catcher out of spring training when he hit .240 and Wellington Castillo only hit .664. Of course the back up was Hill who it .064. 600 points lower then Castillo the problem then was Hendry maybe Theo would actually give Castillo a chance. Or even Michael Brenly too. He’s only on A Ball but he’s already better then Soto.
Soto is a must trade.. his value is extremely low so they wouldn’t get much more then an A ball player. As long as he’s gone it will be a good start.
Drabek, Snider, and $$$ for Garza? I think so.
I’d trade one or the other, but not both for the same player. Both still have tremendous upside, and Anthopoulos selling low on players is the exact opposite of how he seems to operate.
No way. It’s gonna cost a lot more than that. Snider hasn’t been able to hit at the ML level, and Drabek has been straight up terrible.
If you think I want that on my team….well…and for Garza….
lol, enjoy it while it lasts
Soto is actually a prime trade candidate for the trade deadline. He’s going to make around 4 million this year and will be turning 30. Catchers tend to break down earlier than other players, and if he continues with his “every other year” of strong stats, he can draw a pretty big haul. Cubs have 2 catchers in Castillo and Clevenger who are ready to step up into Soto’s spot.
The people I feel sorry for are the Cubs fans that die over the next couple years and STILL don’t see the Cubs win a World Series… plus, they have to spend the last couple years of their existing watching the Cubs suck.
This is completely necessary . It will be worth it of coarse if it works.
trade garza 4 pujols or longaoria??
do you feel better getting that out?
Judging by the throw up that ensued, I would say I sure as heck don’t…
Man, Cub fans are upset.
This team is an absolute mess, due to an inept GM who gave in to the “WIN NOW, WIN AT ANY COST, THROW AS MUCH MONEY AT THE WALL UNTIL SOME OF IT STICKS” mentality the fans apparently have.
Your roster is filled with Castro, Garza, and then a bunch of insanely overpriced junk mixed with some cost-controlled junk. This team is nowhere even remotely close to competing. Throwing 200 million at Fielder isn’t going to change that.
Garza is under control for two more years. You have to trade him and hope you at least get back what you gave up to get him. Shop everyone. Gorge yourself on salary until you can get something, ANYTHING, for guys like Z and Soriano.
There is absolutely no way you can make this team compete before 2014. Your farm system is middling, your major league roster has one core player (Castro), who probably won’t ever be a superstar.
Accept the loses. Accept the lumps. Let the mediocrity wash over you.
IMO, Soto, Marmol, Byrd, and Dempster all need to be traded. If not this offseason, then at the deadline, and since Byrd and Dempster are FAs next offeason, it makes sense to get SOMETHING for them NOW. And since we have Castillo and Clevenger it makes sense to trade Soto too, and since Soto is due to have a good season, teams that are weak behind the plate would jump at the chance to get him,
and as for Marmol, Cubs would probably have to eat half of his salary,
but I’m sure they could find takers for him, could probably get them 2
decent prospects, because that’s what we need, PROSPECTS. No more
overpaying for players who spend years being productive then come to the
Cubs and suck. I’m all for starting from the ground up and going young,
because that’s the ONLY way this team is going to win a World Series.
Dont like this at all –trade all assets and rebuild??? BULLSH** !!!! I would like this to finding an 57 chevy in someones barn that doesnt run–you buy from the farmer and rebuild it but you try and save what you can—and the Cubs have a base to build a team around Castro Garza are a good base traded Marshall might or might not be a good move yes trade Soto and others if you have possible replacements but please dont thro out the baby with the bath water keep what solid pieces you have.
Funny you should use restoring cars as a metaphor, that’s what I do for a living (should have said what I did/still do on occasion)…
What you want the Cubs to do is take the ’57 Chevy out of the Barn, put a cheap coat of paint on it, and try to pass it off as restored; when what it really needs is to be taken off of the frame, have the floors replaced, the engine rebuilt, a new interior, doors, fenders, and quarter panels patched, and to be completely stripped and painted.
Not that I should be surprised though, most people want to pay for a paint job and then are upset when they don’t come away with a full-blown restoration.
Dont want a cheap coat of paint but they should and keep the frame–Garza Castro Marshall and try and patch the qtr panels players like Marmol Szmardjia, They Cubs have some good players I just want then traded.
Keeping Garza is a terrible idea. He is the player who helps you the most in your rebuild when he’s traded, and if you keep him he wont be around by the time you’re competitive anyway so he would be a waste.
I’m not sure why people can see the logic in that?
No fan wants to watch his team suck but if you keep Garza, he will probably still be as good as he is, but the team around him will still suck and in two years he’ll leave and the team will probably still suck because Garza is probably your best asset and it will take longer to build a team strictly from the draft.
The Cubs HAVE money. The idea is to lay the foundation, build the framework then spend wisely and for major talent.
Worked for the Sox.
Exactly, even the people who are against a “complete and total rebuild” should understand (and be behind) the idea of trading Garza.
Sustained Success > Patchwork playoff loser in the first round
Yeah I’ll take that.
As a Cub fan this makes me more excited than anything they’ve done in the past 8 years or so. Frankly I’d rather pay money to go see the prospects that will hopefully be building us into a contender than to go see over payed and under performing veterans squeak out another sub .500 season.
Cubs fans should be thrilled that they finally have someone with a clue to construct that franchise.
So both Chicago teams are in rebuild mode and can be expected to have fire sales?
I wonder when they really begin to move players big time? Next month when the major free agents will be signed or at mid-season?
My honest opinion is most MLB teams achieve success in the modern era with strong farm systems built on astute scouting efforts. This takes a few years to do unless teams are willing to show some grit and deal away “valuable” parts to restock and rebuild quickly. For once, the Cubs franchise is showing some long-term resolve instead of patching together a short-term fix that may or may not (emphasis on “may not”) surprise in a divisional race. I think the effort should be praised, not criticized.
The Cubs can get three or four quality guys for Garza right now when his trade value is at its highest. The Marlins seem driven to assemble quality pitching and, gasp, have interest in Zambrano. DEAL HIM. Teams like the Giants are looking for offense without spending a whole lot of money – maybe Soriano? The time to explore the trade market is now with caps and a now-weak free agent market.
Our Cubs fandom has blinded many of us, leading us to believe we have a shot at some miraculous year every single year. “Wait ’til next year” has now become “Wait ’til the Mayan calendar is up.” I don’t know about other Cub fans, but I know I’m sick and tired of seeing a middling team never show any long-term planning. This is so refreshing to me. I welcome the future. I think others should, too.
Someone is going to have to explain to me how trying to put together a winning team in 2012 and building the farm system are mutually exclusive. If you draft and develop well, you will have a good farm system, and that’s pretty independent of MLB success.
“Win now or win later” is some sort of article of faith among many fans, but I’m still not entirely clear on why that’s a choice at all.
The Cubs aren’t in bad shape because they tried to win with free agents. They are in bad shape because they’ve gotten negative cumulative WAR from their last 10 years of first- and second-round draft picks.
Good insight. People forget how BAD are drafts were for the last DECADE.
dec 23 cubs totally rebuild dec 24 they sign fielder. there isnt a bunch of guys looking to pump up the fan base, they are actually trying to make the team better and not release leaks to the bs chicago media. speed, defense, pitching when you are lacking in all these areas you arent a player or 2 away. we arent the 3 best team in the nl central for f sake.
Can’t wait until there’s a Mets headline that says this…
it doesn’t need to be said..you guys are
The Cubs ABSOLUTELY needed a rebuild, anyone who debates this point is a moron. They COULD have gone out and signed Fielder but what is the point? They aren’t going to win anything with him in the next few years, his contract will only become an albatross like Alfonso’s by the time the Cubs are(could be?) contending.
Teams who should go out and sign Fielder are ones that are currently a Prince Fielder away from being WS contenders, so they can make the most of his prime years to make it easier to swallow the 2-3 years they’re paying him $20 million+ to waddle out onto the field.
Absolutely the right decision for Chicago, they should get a good haul for Garza and could potentially get something good for Alfonso providing they are willing to eat his entire contract… which they should.
They maximised the return on Marshall (BOY did they maximise the return on Marshall) and they have a good FO that will put them in the right direction.
They have been rebuilding for 2 years now. It has done them no good- Theo will do the same old same old and get nowhere like the folks before him.
Yeah, because that’s exactly what he’s talking about doing…
If you’re response to a post on MLBTR is over 5 paragraphs, it’s too long.
Complete rebuild, they should have done this 3 yrs ago. When they kept holding onto Ramirez and Lee. If they completely overhaul please for the love of god get rid of Soriano, Soto, and Zambrano and Marmol, Those 4 players are MUST trades.
And no, Red Sox fans, you cannot have Castro.
Don’t particularly want him (not that I wouldn’t want him on my team, but I wouldn’t want to give them the prospects it would take to get him).
And yes, he’s the one player they could (should?) reasonably hang on to through their rebuild.
Can’t see the value being returned to the Cubs being equal to an early 20’s All-Star Shortstop.
I would trade Castro to the red sox in a hearbeat. Boston would run him out of baseball So fast you wouldn’t know what hit him.
Thinking about wins right now is pointless. It’s time for all Cub fans to bite the bullet and accept a lot of losses for the next two or three years. I would much rather watch a team of young players that hustle on the basepaths and give maximum effort on defense and win 60 games than the dreck that has been on the field the past few years and win 70-75 games. A left fielder who is afraid of coming within twenty feet of the wall? A third baseman who cares so little about winning he won’t hit the dirt to catch a ground ball? Aramis is gone, fortunately. If I see Soriano on the field for the Cubs next year, for the first time in my life, I will not watch a Cubs game in 2012.
I hope management gives the fans more credit than in the past and will focus on defense, speed, and good character guys. To a poster who mentioned that Lackey was not a bad signing at the time by Epstein, he must have never watched Lackey throw a fit on the mound and yell at his teammates two or three times every start when an error or perceived (by him) misplay was made by his defense. Please, no more guys like him or Zambrano or A. Ramirez. And I know this will not be popular, but Castro should be traded. He isn’t a shortstop, has shown signs of a bad attitude (which for a 2nd year player is not a good sign), and could potentially bring a lot in return.
Trade (and absorb any amount of salary that is needed to get Soriano and Zambrano out of here) Soto, Byrd, Zambrano, Garza, Barney (need better plate patience to be a middle infielder with zero power) Wells, Soriano, and Castro. Then midseason, hopefully Marmol and Dempster have pitched well and trade both before the trade deadline. A complete and total overhaul is the way to go. Blow up the entire roster. I would be more than happy to watch Reed Johnson and Campagna hustle and play as many young players as possible at every other position. K. Wood should be re-signed because of promises made and he can provide leadership. I honestly don’t care what the Cubs’ record will be for the short term, I want to watch young guys who care and plan for a pennant run in three years.
The stain of bad management has to be sandblasted from this franchise. Erase the memory of Phil Wrigley, the Tribune Company parade of know nothing suits, Jim Frey, Ed Lynch, Andy MacPahil, Jim Hendry, Sam Zell (under the guidance of his good friend, Jerry Reinsdorf), and Lou Piniella. The apathy/lack of long term planning of these men have kept us as the laughingstock fans in all of American professional sports. I implore Cubs’ fans to accept losing right now for a possible future, becasue they way we’ve done things for 70 years sure as hell hasn’t worked.