In the first trade of the offseason, the Braves shed $5MM of payroll when they shipped Derek Lowe to the Indians and agreed to pick up $10MM of his $15MM salary for 2012. It was a deal that gave GM Frank Wren & Co. some much needed breathing room, and one that couldn't have been made without a good deal of pitching depth.
Even without Lowe in the mix, Atlanta still has a rotation headlined by Tim Hudson and Jair Jurrjens. There are plenty of young hurlers available in support, including Mike Minor, Julio Teheran, Randall Delgado , Arodys Vizcaino, Brandon Beachy, and Tommy Hanson. While Atlanta would certainly like to avoid rushing their young pitchers into taking on major workloads, they might be better served by turning their pitching wealth into offense in 2012.
Wren claims to be content with his stockpile of arms and even though interest in Jurrjens is high, the GM is reportedly asking for a Zack Greinke-like return for the oft-injured 25-year-old. While the Braves could come away with a solid package for Jurrjens, it's overly optimistic to put the youngster's value on a par with Greinke's.
The Braves are looking to make a few upgrades in their lineup and would like to move on from shortstop Alex Gonzalez if they can. They'd also like to land themselves a young center fielder as insurance if they can't retain Michael Bourn when he hits the open market after next season. Wren would obviously love to keep Jurrjens as part of the starting five, but he can absolutely afford to flip him in order to improve elsewhere.
JJ to the Yankees for Nunez and a couple of low rated prospects
Nuñez and Gardner
not worth it
Well Nuñez and Swisher +4.5 million
still not worth it
Well then Montero, Nuñez, and Betances or Banuelos…..I mean if that’s unacceptable, then the answer is no. You can’t have him for free
trololol?
if only…
DONE!!!! Nunez and one of the guys that cuts the infield grass. Let’s draw up the paperwork pronto!
PS- They DO prefer to be called “grounds keeper” for future reference.
Is that why they get mad when I yell “Yo, high school dropouts, you missed a spot!”
there is a great young shortstop cost controlled good offense and defense in Toronto…. yunel esco….wait nvm
I think Toronto could be a great fit, since they have CF prospect depth (Gose and Marisnick), and are looking for a front-of-the-rotation starter.
If Atlanta’s opening to trading Tommy Hanson, I think Hanson and Prado for Gose, Hechavarria, and a ML-ready guy like Eric Thames could work.
You’d be willing to trade Toronto’s future potential all-star and gold-glover Hecheverria, a speedster the team’s been looking for for years AND a 25-30 HR LF in Thames for a #4 SP and decent 2B??
It sounds like you’re probably overvaluing Toronto’s guys and undervaluing Atlanta’s here.
No I’m saying the suggested trade would benefit Atlanta a lot more. Would you give up 3 of your top prospects for Cecil and McCoy?
Did you just compare Hanson and Prado with Cecil and McCoy? Seriously?
I made that mistake once in 1996, and boy let me tell you things got ugly in a hurry.
Hansons not a number 4 pitcher
Your making us Jays fans look bad, like really bad. Please god stop the madness!
Their blue jays fans, the biggest homers on the planet
That’s correct. Hanson’s a very solid #2 starter when healthy, and Prado’s a very good stopgap second baseman.
Thames is never going to hit 25-30 HR, and I’m of the belief that they should give Travis Snider the LF job to start 2012. Hechavarria has great defense, but probably will never hit enough to be an above-average Major League bat. A lot of scouts prefer Marisnick to Gose, who probably has a higher BA/OBP ceiling with just as much power. They’re obviously all valuable prospects, but I’d trade them away for a player like Hanson.
Yes, Thames is a 25 hr guy.
not sure Hanson can be considered a #4 starter..
Me neither . He would be an ace or #2 starter on some teams and a #2-#3 starter on almost all the others .
at this point a solid 2/3 but he’s still young and can develop in to a legit #1..
not sure why the braves would consider moving him at this point/
If they do move Hanson , it would be obviously to improve the team and to let a cheaper more contract controlled option to take his place (Teheran/Medlen/Minor) . Hanson is a proven ML pitcher with a ton of upside . So a deal for him would have to be substantial and would have to overwelm Wren to be able to pull the trigger . But we are overstocked at the moment at that starting rotation position . So a deal is not impossible . And I think that he could be replaced internally fairly easily .
Hanson made league min this year, and won’t make much in 2012. don’t see how he can be replaced for that price
TOUCHE !
Not for that price , probably not . But he could bring back great value in a trade that would offensively help the team and open a spot for one of our ML ready pitchers thats waiting their turn .
Good luck even getting Wren to take that call about trading Hanson. Guy was the #1 pitching prospect in all of MLB and has proven himself to have top-tier stuff in a short amount of time. Of course, the downside are some injuries, but nothing that has shown long-term damage.
Selling Hanson, even in this shallow SP market, would be selling low considering the previous upside Hanson has shown. Patience. Guy is young…and a ginger. It’s a hard-knock life.
Yeah. Plus, all three kids would have to perform Mmmbop on the mound. I mean, it’s only like 4 feet in diameter!
Ridiculous. Hanson is a #1 starter when healthy. Not an ace, but definitely a #1.
that makes no sense.
A No. 1 IS an ace so you just contradicted yourself.
Not true. An “ace” is a rare commodity in MLB, a pitcher who you would “expect” to shut down your opponent most of the time: think Verlander, Kershaw, Halladay, Lincecum. I don’t know about you, but I would estimate that maybe 10-15 guys fit the bill. Every team has a #1 starter, but not every team has an ace. Some teams have more than one ace.
Example: Kansas City’s #1 SP this season was Luke Hochevar. The Mets’ #1 SP was Mike Pelfrey. Minnesota’s #1 SP was Carl Pavano. Baltimore’s was Jeremy Guthrie. Pittsburgh’s was Kevin Correia. Do you see anyone there you would consider an ace?
Example: Cliff Lee and Cole Hamels were Philly’s #2 and #3 SPs this season, but most people consider them aces.
Not true. An “ace” is a rare commodity in MLB, a pitcher who you would “expect” to shut down your opponent most of the time: think Verlander, Kershaw, Halladay, Lincecum. I don’t know about you, but I would estimate that maybe 10-15 guys fit the bill. Every team has a #1 starter, but not every team has an ace. Some teams have more than one ace.
Example: Kansas City’s #1 SP this season was Luke Hochevar. The Mets’ #1 SP was Mike Pelfrey. Minnesota’s #1 SP was Carl Pavano. Baltimore’s was Jeremy Guthrie. Pittsburgh’s was Kevin Correia. Do you see anyone there you would consider an ace?
Example: Cliff Lee and Cole Hamels were Philly’s #2 and #3 SPs this season, but most people consider them aces.
Lowe was ATL’s (arguable) #1 most likely because he was paid the most (and thus, had the largest expectations), but no one dare called him Atlanta’s ace. Even he was named “Ace Lowe” legally, no one would call him that.
The only way he’s a #4 is if 1-3 are Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz in the mid-90’s..
surely you jest
wow.
edit: never mind, I just read your username
You are nuts if you think Tommy Hanson is a #4 pitcher!!! He is the #2 pitcher on a VERY good Atlanta staff. When Huddy retires he will be the #1 pitcher on the staff.
And he would probably be the ace on half of the leagues other teams .
Thames didn’t even hit 25 doubles last year
um, He had 24 doubles in 360 at bats as a rookie, Were you expecting Babe Ruth numbers the first year ?
He/she stated a fact, that Thames didn’t hit 25 doubles last year. Why are you being defensive?
um, He had 24 doubles in 360 at bats as a rookie, Were you expecting Babe Ruth numbers the first year ?
If you see Tommy Hanson as a #4 SP and Prado as only a “decent” 2B, you need to stick with hockey.
If you see Tommy Hanson as a #4 SP and Prado as only a “decent” 2B, you need to stick with hockey.
First, Tommy Hanson isn’t going to be traded. 2nd, that isn’t close to enough for him IF they would trade him. Hechavarria is nothing but an all-glove shortstop and the Braves already have Andrelton Simmons who is practically the same player. Thames is nothing special. Gose is the only decent piece of that trade proposal and he isn’t close to enough for Tommy Hanson, much less him AND Prado.
I think it’s safe to say that the Blue Jays won the Gonzalez/Escobar trade.
At least until his attitude sours and he starts hitting like a 6 year old girl again.
he’s had 1 bad half of a season out of 5 full seasons.
Darn you and your facts. Everyone knows Escobar is a clubhouse cancer who is going to stop trying any day now.
Don’t think that will happen seeing it’s been over a year and a half since he’s been with the team. Bautista also talked some sense into him by taking up the big brother role.
still depends on Pastornicky
Don’t even bother. The Blue Jays fans on this website refuse to hear it. I’m just waiting until Escobar decides it’s time to start being a whiny little baby again and Pastornicky becomes an all-star then the jokes on them.
lol
They are like a cult! AA must be giving out the Kool Aid.
Braves wanted his attitude gone. Wouldn’t have mattered what they got back. Gonzo provided pop that the braves needed last year and pastornicky is projected to hit the bigs this year and that’s the key to that deal. Toronto only wins this deal if Pastornicky flops. And then even the Braves first basemen weren’t risking breaking their wrists catching his lazy throws to first…
ofcourse it matters what they get back, thats completely absurd to suggest otherwise..
Bobby Cox wanted Escobar gone. Like his way of doing things or not, once he decided a player didn’t play the game right (in his opinion) that player had no future in Atlanta. Escobar was the epitome of what Cox didn’t like in a player. Lazy, lack of focus, and no hustle… but he was still a good young SS.. of course they’re getting something in return for him, but don’t make the mistake of thinking if they would’ve shopped him around longer they get a better return. They wanted the deal done. Benching Escobar never reached him, so they shipped him somewhere else.
pastornicky is projected to hit the bigs this year
Maybe I’m reading this out of context, but every scouting report I’ve read has Pastornicky projected as a utility player, and isn’t the greatest fielder. Now while multiple scouts’ words aren’t end all be all, they do give you a fairly good idea of what to expect. He can hit for a decent average and not much else as of right now, and this is why he’s not ready for the MLB yet.
I do hope he turns out well cause I can’t stand losing sleep knowing how badly the Jays fleeced the Braves with that deal.
Meh, I think Pastornicky and Hechavarria are almost comparable at this point. Hech can’t hit at all, while Pastornicky can at least hit for a good average, but Hechavarria’s the better defender. Comparable.
To play along with the comparison, I’d much rather have the fielder than the hitter. But their value is more or less on par with each other, yes.
oh, I thought we were comparing Hechavarria and Pastornicky for some reason. Nevermind.
Hahaha. We can if you want, but my point was basically that Pastornicky is only a mentionable prospect because he reached AAA at a young age–most likely because their SS depth in the minors is kinda.. weak.
Braves’ SS depth is weak? It’s not weak.
Andrelton Simmons has real potentiall- Pastornicky will end up Replacing Uggla, or maybe forcing Uggla to move to 3B or LF.
As said the Braves have good SS depth. Simmons is the future starter there, but Frank Wren has already said Pastornicky may be the starter at SS coming out of spring if they can’t find someone on a one year deal. One year deal because they feel Pastornicky is close. The Braves don’t need him to hit a ton, they just need him to hit better than Gonzalez did, and be good, not great defensively. And if you think the Jays “fleeced” the Braves in the deal, keep telling yourself that. No one in ATL misses Escobar. Winning organizations put an emphasis on effort and hustle… and while in ATL Escobar lacked in both categories. A team can only bench a player so many times before they give up on them and let a different team try to reach that player.
I 100% agree with what you said. On the other hand, if Escobar was the Braves SS this year the Cardinals don’t win the WC. The Braves do. Cards love the trade…
Escobar would probably have helped the braves win more games last season, but he could’ve also been lazy on defense and cost the Braves some wins… and Freeman’s health. One of the final straws to trading Escobar was a lazy throw to first he made that almost cost Glaus a broken wrist. Not to mention with Uggla’s range up the middle having an above average SS defensively was huge last year for the Braves. Escobar is a good player… he had just simply wore out his welcome in ATL. If I’m GM of Toronto I do that deal too, and am happy with it. For the Braves though, Escobar wasn’t a player they wanted to deal with anymore.
Pastornicky has plus range just a weak arm. He may not hold at SS but would be a plus defender at 2B. He has solid OB skills and good speed. Won’t ever be elite, but from everything i’ve seen he should be a middle of the road SS
kinda sounds like a guy like brian roberts-like. but a ss, a better position. ill take that.
Frankly, I do think TOR will win this deal. Pastornicky is the best option right now, but Simmons is maturing as a better ballplayer faster than Pastornicky – Pastornicky just closer to the bigs. Of course, that all can change once they get to ATL. I’d like to see Simmons in AAA in 2012 and see how he does.
Cool, you can go discuss that at the Escobar-Gonzalez trade thread.
Who made that trade for the Jays?
Tough to say. Any trade that sends Jo-Jo Reyes to another team is an automatic win.
Blue Jays seem like a natural fit if the Braves are willing to part with one of their better (i.e. non-Jurrjens) young pitchers – Hechavarria and Gose seem like two names that would come up in trade talks.
why would they view Hech as an upgrade over Pastornicky?
Whoa, didn’t realize what a good year Pastornicky had at AA/AAA in 2011. Yeah, I guess they probably wouldn’t. I always thought he was just organizational filler… interesting. Hechavarria probably wouldn’t be a good fit after all then. Their CF depth still makes them a decent fit though. And if Prado is involved then the Jays’ surplus of decent/promising LF-types (Thames, Snider) could also be a fit for larger deal.
Would you really be willing to trade thames or snider and bank on one of thames or snider going in to next year?
Despite a surplus of bodies, realistically Jose is the only outfielder you can rely on going in to 2012.. Theres a lot of potential with Rasmus, Snider, Thames and Davis, but thats 4 huge question marks.
Jurjens could be had for prospects because of the surplus of ML ready pitchers the Braves have . Prado on the other hand would require someone in return who can play now in LF and maybe even a backup IF or 3rd baseman .
If Prado is traded , he would go with a prospect or two to get the Braves a LF or possibly a SS and a utility guy/backup 3RD baseman .
Clearly you haven’t read any of the reports where Frank Wren has stated that he is looking for a “Greinke-like” return for Jurrjens, and if not, they’ll just keep him. The fact that the Braves have a surplus of ML-ready pitching in no way changes JJ’s value to the rest of the league, and the Braves know that.
I have read them all . Just because I said prospects , that doesn’t mean a lower level . They would have to be ML ready or close . Of course the Braves having a surplus of pitching doesn’t change JJ’s value to the league . It changes his value to the Braves . The Braves have 7 pitchers right now (including Jurrjens) that are either already in the rotation or ready to take over a spot in the rotation . And thats not including Medlen . That fact alone makes Jurrjens expendable as long as the Braves can get something of value in return . And thats what I was stating .
I have read them all . Just because I said prospects , that doesn’t mean a lower level . They would have to be ML ready or close . Of course the Braves having a surplus of pitching doesn’t change JJ’s value to the league . It changes his value to the Braves . The Braves have 7 pitchers right now (including Jurrjens) that are either already in the rotation or ready to take over a spot in the rotation . And thats not including Medlen . That fact alone makes Jurrjens expendable as long as the Braves can get something of value in return . And thats what I was stating .
Clearly you haven’t read any of the reports where Frank Wren has stated that he is looking for a “Greinke-like” return for Jurrjens, and if not, they’ll just keep him. The fact that the Braves have a surplus of ML-ready pitching in no way changes JJ’s value to the rest of the league, and the Braves know that.
Not only to the Braves have Pastornicky but they also have Andrelton Simmons, who will be at AA next year. They have no need for a shortstop prospect.
this doesn’t shock me that a yankee fan is the first person to comment… and they’re throwing up Nunez like he isn’t the heir apparent to Jeter
Not a Yankee fan, its just what I could see happenin. I don’t think JJ is worth as much as Braves fans make him out to be and decent hitting shortstops are hard to come by, also Nunez could also be of service as a utility for backing up Chipper at third, he’d have alot of value to them.
Sure he’s a decent hitter but his fielding is atrocious. He made 20 errors in 122 games last year.
Even with his injury last year he was an AS and arguably the best pitcher in the NL at the AS break . He was in the discussion at the AS break for the CY Young award .
So yeah , we hold quite a bit of value for Jurrjens . We know what he is worth and what he is capable of being able to produce when healthy . And the health issues are not that big of a deal . It wasn’t a major injury , and he is only 25 this year . It’s not like his career is coming to an end and any injury that he has is gonna end it . He is under team control for two more years and is only gonna make about 5.5 million this year even with him being an AS last year .
Wren has good reason to want so much in return . And he won’t just give him away for practically nothing .
If we were to deal with the Yankees , I would want to see a package of Swisher+ whatever for Jurrjens+ whatever .
In reply to your major/minor injury statement correlating to age – See: Mark Prior. Anything is possible 😉
I don’t expect them to give him away for nothing, but I think Swisher is a little too high. As would be Gardner + Nunez (in reply to another suggestion). He has a lot of potential being so young and seems to now know how to not be a total schlub in the second half of the season. The torn meniscus thing could be a one-time deal, but the fact the braves put him on the 15 day at the end of the season is a little concerning but definitely could be nothing.
I say Nunez + free fielding/throwing lessons for a year, throw in Golson or Maxwell and this Yankee fan would be happy 😉
I don’t know for a fact cause I’m no doctor . But I can remember the Braves trying to rush him and Hanson back ASAP to help make the playoffs . There may be a chance that he was rushed back a little too early into his rehab starts to put him back on the DL . And I don’t think trading an AS pitcher at 25 years old and has two more years of team control (with this years salary around 5.5 million) for an OFer who hits 25-30 HRs a year and is under team control for one year at 10 million + is too much . For all me and you both knowknow , Swisher for Jurrjens straight up might be too much for the Braves side instead of the Yankees’ side . The question is how bad the Yankees want a good middle of the rotation pitcher and how much the Braves want a power bat with a good OBP . Only Wren and Cashman knows .
They both really want that.
I think the fairest deal would be JJ+Prado+Hoover for Nunez+Gardner+ B+/A- position prospect from the Yankees.
Hoover can be converted back to a starter, and is a solid pitching prospect who isn’t really needed in Atlanta, and will likely end up a middle reliever just due to the glut everywhere else.
Switch Swisher with Gardner . Their contracts will pretty much cancel out each other which would help the Braves be able to afford Swish’s salary this year .
I like Swisher and am not sure if I would make that trade but a Swisher + whatever for JJ + whatever is a reasonable suggestion worth considering.
Oh wow you’re considering . That’s an improvement .
Said it yesterday. Maybe if you had read it you wouldn’t have this angst towards me.
Hey guy , you started this crap by questioning my right to be able to express my freedom to post on a public site . I’ve got just as much right to post my opinion about the team I support (Braves) as you do your team . Don’t fault me cause you don’t feel the same way that us Braves fans do about our players . We obviously know more about them and what they are worth than you do .
If you want to offer your opinion on them , plaese feel free . I like hearing what others that are not Braves fans thinks of our players and prospects . But at least allow yourself to be somewhat openminded and be able to look at not just the negatives but also the positives .
You have stated in several remarks , as I have also about your team in retaliation , that we Braves fans only look at this and don’t look at that . But we also spend the entire season blogging about the same players and stats and concerns that alot of people on here that are not asociated with our fanbase , continue to either post false statements based on rumors or make statements saying that a player holds little value because he is able to pitch against a system that has flaws . Then when a blogger that may have actual information on that matter that has had many discussions on those subjects , tries to give an answer or his opinion based on what has already been discussed , you and some other people decide to take it upon yourselves to totally disregard what’s being stated because were just Braves fans and biased , and etc . It’s bullcrap .
I’m honestly a nice guy and like talking on these blogs , as long as it’s worthy of debating . But when someone starts to get a little immature like you did with me earlier , I tend to do the same thing . If you want to debate , which is really all this site is good for , then let us debate maturely and both be open minded and listen without criticism to each others opinions . I can respect you and your posts as long as you can respect mine .
And before you start pointing fingers at one teams fans , all MLB teams have a few fans that are a little of their rocker , so to speak , so Braves fans are no worse than Yankee , Cardinals , Phillies , Red Sox , or any other teams fans .
I think the problem I have with “Braves’ fan” when discussing JJ is that they only seem to accentuate his positives and either ignore or minimize the negatives or concerns.
a) He was great last year but he also had a 3.99 FIP and a xFIP of 4.23.
b) He’s lost velocity on his FB for the 5 straight year and doesn’t miss many bats. Braves’ fan usually dismisses this and says “He’s throwing his FB slower for purpose, ya know, pitching to contact?”. Could be true but how is a scout to know this? Should they just ask him?
c) He has been unable to throw more than 152 innings in either of the last two years. Regardless of whether or not he does or doesn’t have any major problems with his arm, an inability to pitch innings expected as a #2 or #3 type is an issue when it’s #2 or #3 type compensation being sought.
d) His K% is below average, his GB% is below average and his LOB% last year was second to Cliff Lee only. There may be a bit of luck in play for him last year. MAYBE he found out a way to clamp down and pitch himself out of trouble or maybe he just got lucky?
To his credit, he got the job done last year. However, if you base your opinion of him beyond ERA then you have to wonder if his 1st half is repeatable, especially if he leaves the NL.
It has been stated that the drop in velocity was indeed intentional on a few Braves Live shows this past season not to just pitch to contact but to also have better cpmmand of his pitches which resulted in a BB/9 of 3.2 to 2.6 from 2010-2011 . And he did at times throw 92-93 MPH last year . He just didn’t do it all the time . I guess when your ERA is 2.00 + and the 89 MPH fastball is getting it done to go along with the changeup and another offspead pitch , you don’t have to try and strike out every batter . And I have heard all about the ‘luck’ pertaining to Jurrjens , and it’s hogwash . It’s not like he is the only good pitcher to ever proove the advanced stats wrong about a guys pitcher value . There have been a few pitchers who have pitched well in there career without having to strike out 8-9 batters a game . It shouldn’t matter how a pitcher gets his outs , only that he is able to get them . And he is capable when he is healthy to pitch 200+ innings . His 2009 stats shows where he pitched 215.0 and 188.1 the year before .
You are a perfect example of the braves’ fan I was referring to. It doesn’t matter how many innings he thru in 2009 and 2008. The concern I was addressing was that he’s been unable to do it the last 2 years. To dismiss that again shows that you are dismissing everyone elses concerns. As for the advanced metrics and your disregarding them…..fine. Others won’t.
A pure Yankee fan I see with the “I am always right” attitude . You give Jurrjens no credit at all . He is ONLY 25 . He WILL overcome the injuries . If he was 35+ and his last couple of years he spent being injured , then I would agree with your concern . But there is no since trying to convince a Yankee fan about anything . But if Jurrjens was a Yankee you would be telling me about how great of a pitcher he is no matter of is injuries or being a good pitcher with a good ERA even though he completely defies the odds against the advanced stats . But thats fine . I don’t care too much for New Yorkens with the “I believe what the paper and numbers tell me before I believe my own eyes” attitude .
Oh , and Yankees fans are just as shallow as any other MLB team fan , if not more so . Mainly because you have been taught to expect too much from your teams which has left most Yankee fans spoiled like little rich-kid brats .
There . I’m done venting . I feel better now .
They don’t believe what every paper tells them just the New York Post
LOL . That’s too funny .
I’ve spent the last 10 years in Cleveland, OH and Miami, FL so no, I don’t read the post. Nice try though.
Glad to see that conversations based on facts, numbers and an honest valuation of a talent gets thrown out the window because of emotions though.
So your are a proffesional scout ?
Good to know that your opinion means exactly 00000 .
One doesn’t have to be a scout. Just have an open mind towards logical thinking. I’m farrrrrr from a sabermetrics guy but there are better ways to evaluate a player rather than ERA and Wins. Now some players do outperform their metrics but there isn’t enough of a history to determine which side of the fence JJ falls. But what I can plainly see is that he’s been unable to stay healthy for the past two years, has a declining FB which is sometimes a sign of trouble and if he moves anywhere else outside of the NL his lack of velocity and lack of ability to induce ground balls can end up being a problem.
No one here is a scout and my word is far from law. You however have a real problem with having an open mind towards a new way of thinking. This “I know he’s great because I seen it with my own two peepers” argument won’t get you far. You amuse me though….
There are flaws to the advanced stats . So to be open minded towards something would require it to be a flawless system , which it is not .
And I am not gonna talk anymore about his drop in velocity , mainly cause you haven’t been listening to what some bloggers have already stated on that matter . If you had , you wouldn’t still be bringing it up in discussion .
if something had to be flawless for you to be open minded to it, your mind would be closed to pretty much everything.
“He is ONLY 25 . He WILL overcome the injuries”.
Chein-Ming Wang says hello.
“But if Jurrjens was a Yankee you would be telling me about how great of a pitcher he is no matter of is injuries or being a good pitcher with a good ERA even though he completely defies the odds against the advanced stats”.
I don’t argue against logic. For instance, a healthy Joba and Hughes have value. However, I can’t and wouldn’t expect anyone to value them as if none of their negatives or question marks didn’t exist. And no I’m not comparing either to Jurrjens.
“Mainly because you have been taught to expect too much from your teams which has left most Yankee fans spoiled like little rich-kid brats” .
What we expect is for our owners to put a quality product on the field each year. Speaking for myself, I know some Yankee fans are spoiled. However, I was a fan for all of those early 80’s and early 90’s teams and can speak without the colored lenses on.
Braves fans act as if every pitcher wearing a Braves uniform is something uber special and beyond being criticized though. But that’s ok……be special.
Guy you are full of it . You can’t tell me that you wouldn’t be using a Yankee pitchers upside or productiveness as a selling point and negating any injury or concerns . And as a GM , if I was one , I couldn’t allow myself to be closeminded as to only value them by their injury history . Especially if the guy I am interested in is only 25 . His career is just getting started . I think I would look more at how well he would perform if he could sustain his health throughout a whole year . Pitchers come back from injuries every year . It’s a pretty common thing . In fact , some pitchers come stronger and have better years after their injuries .
And as far as us Braves fans cherishing our pitchers are concerned . We have had tremendous pitching for the last several decades . And we have tremendous talent in pitching coming up through our system . Not all of our pitchers are great (Lowe , Kawakami….ugh) , but we do value the ones we know can produce like Jurrjens . He is better than what most give him credit for and better than the advanced stats give him credit for . He is not ‘lucky’ . I could see that crap standing if he were lucky for a game or two , but not a good half of the year .
The thing with JJ’s velocity is that he’s using a pitch given to him by Venters, which has helped. He can still dial it up on occasion, he just hasn’t had a need to do it.
I don’t think he’d be as good in the AL, but he’d still be pretty good- he is an injury risk until proven otherwise, but the injuries are leg not arm, which isn’t as bad.
I don’t think of SS with a .317 OBP decent hitting. Pastornicky will get on base more than that.
maybe because he isnt a heir apparent to jeter.
Google “Braves interested eduardo nunez” and maybe that will give you an idea as to why ppl throw Nunez’s name out their whenever there’s a post about Braves’ trade rumors and scenarios.
And still all I see is false rumors . We don’t want your trash . No thanks .
The Braves are the ones interested in Nunez!
The Braves are interested in everyone in MLB during the offseason . Just like all the other teams in MLB .
You have to also remember that this is the offseason . Until it is a done deal , signed and inked , everything is nother more than just a rumor .
It doesn’t matter, Escobar was a clubhouse cancer and nobody wanted him around anymore.
He’s just a bit timid and doesn’t speak very good English – Atlanta may have been frustrated with his bat and sloppy defense in 2010, but that doesn’t mean he’s a cancer or anything.
Far from it. He’s been both lively and professional since coming to Canada.
It’s great that he has found a home somewhere else . He was not happy in Atlanta . He made that perfectly clear . And it had gotten to the point to where he would let it show in his game(offense/defense) . He is a gifted baseball player with a lot of talent . But if he would have stayed in Atlanta , the story would be the same . He would still be playing way below his skill/talent level until he got what he wanted , a trade elsewhere . Don’t hold it against Atlanta or the fans of the Braves to call him a ‘cancer’ cause that is a nickname of a person that he allowed himself to be called by the way he performed on the field and the effect that he was starting to have on his teammates . He gave Atlanta almost no other alternative but to give him what he wanted . Both teams are now better because of it .
Everything you say is understandable. But still, Atlanta should have been committed to diplomacy (i.e. doing whatever it takes to turn him around mentally while keeping him a Brave) over shipping the guy out. That’s my same problem with how Larussa handled Rasmus. You gotta do what it takes to keep premium, young talent around.
I believe that they offered every oppurtunity to Yunel to try and figure out what his problem was . He was and still is a young guy . Bobby Cox has always been known to stand up for his players and give the younger talent as much of an oppurtunity to show that they can perform . I think when all was said and done , the Braves , as a whole (players,coaches,FO) decided that there wasn’t anything else that they could do to try and help the guy except give him another chance to shine somewhere else .
Like I said , I’m happy for him . I hope he has a great career . But for whatever reason , he didn’t want to stay in Atlanta . And you can’t force a player to play %100 if he’s not happy with his circumstances . Cox even tried sitting him on the bench for a few games to try and give him a wake-up call and I think it just made things worse . So it is what it is .
One of the best examples I can think of in regards to his piss poor attitude was the incident where he disagreed with being issued an error and pointed at the press box and mouthed obscenities.
And this really bothered you?
If Escobar were to do that as a Jay most fans would probably get a good laugh out it.
It was a sign of unprofessionalism and immaturity on his part . He was pointing the finger somewhere else other than where it should’ve been pointed , at himself .
“Cancer” may be a bit harsh, even though things were definitely trending that way before the deal. Will leave it with the mention that not only was the fact that Gonzalez received a standing ovation from players and coaches when he entered the clubhouse reported in the AJC, they made sure to mention it during the tv broadcast that night.
Bobby was too old school for Escobar, it’s like putting Teddy Roosevelt with Obama.
doesn’t change the fact that they should have gotten more for him. justify away though
I’m sure that the other GM’s knew of his apparent attitude problems and may not have wanted to take a chance on him . Either that or Wren took what he felt was the best package that he could get for Yunel’s value at the time .
He was still a a great young talent playing a premium position. If other GM’s knew of his apparent attitude problems, they still would have paid more than what the Jays did. I think Wren looked at Gonzo’s bat at the time and stellar D and thought he had a steal if he could get a solid SS prospect to boot in hopes of Escobar being an actual cancer(something I never labeled him).
I don’t think Gonzo was the main piece in that deal from the Braves point of view . And if Wren could have gotten more for Yunel then I’m sure he would have . No one actually knows what Yunel’s deal was . But it was affecting the team as whole and the only solution was to give the kid what he wanted , somewhere else to play . You just have to cut your losses sometimes and take what you can get for him . And I honestly think that both teams are better after that deal . Obviously the Braves miss his talents , but only if he is willing to play up to his potential . And if we would have kept him , I don’t think he would have .
They dealt with him for years. Not just 2010. He jogged to first on popups, refused to talked to media, and refused to learn the english language. He made obscene gestures to the scorer when they ruled against him, and constantly fought with Bobby Cox. It was time for him to leave.
Not to mention on balls that were hit in the gap with decent height (which were few and far between), were in his mind no doubters over the fence. So when they hit the wall he’d have a sliding double that most players would be on their way to 3rd on.
The justification is that the Blue Jays had to take Jo Jo Reyes in the deal. :o…
The justification is that the Blue Jays had to take Jo Jo Reyes in the deal. :o…
He seems to be doing just fine in Toronto. Maybe Atlanta’s clubhouse is next to a nuclear waste runoff pool, because he seems to be cancerless now.
I’ll say it again… “They dealt with him for years. Not just 2010. He jogged to first on popups, refused to talked to media, and refused to learn the english language. He made obscene gestures to the scorer when they ruled against him, and constantly fought with Bobby Cox. It was time for him to leave. “
It’s like Henley with the Marlins, he’s no Jeter, you can only put up with that kind of player for so long. Sometimes the player matures and sometimes they don’t like with Manny. The main thing is you have to know what you have and if it’s Manny you keep him and put up with him to win championships.
have you seen the area Turner Field is located? Wouldn’t surprise me…
I disagree . It’s just off of the interstate which makes it accesible . And it’s just a ways out of the business district which makes it a little easier to get to with all the traffic in Atlanta .
I wonder if they would really go into the season as they are now. If JJ or someone else has a good first month or 2 they can then go out and get the return they seek.
That is a possibility, but at the same time oft-injured isn’t an inaccurate word to use for him for a reason. Thats the reason currently his value isn’t to the level that the Braves would like, but its hit or miss with his health. For the Braves if they do move him it has to make sense in the long run, either filling an upgrade at SS or long term replacement in CF.
ya he has been labeled. but maybe more would be possible if they can get a team with an injury. another wainwright injury for a contender. look at the giants and zack wheeler.
That is true, but it only works if he can stay healthy himself. That is the point, another injury might just kill his value all together. Plus currently he has two years of team control left, the same amount that Greinke had when he was dealt, so any delay makes that request even more absurd.
Jurrjens to CIN for Chris Heisey and Todd Fraizer seems like a fair deal for both sides.
I’m not Wren , but I like that deal . I like Heisey . Other Braves bloggers are bigger on Stubbs . But his K totals scare me . Heisey looks like if given a full season he could produce 20-30 HR’s a season with a decent batting average and OBP . Don’t know much about his defense . But I do like his offense .
That sounds like a great trade to me, Heisey will do well with the Braves, and Frazier is a gammer ever since he played on the little league world series team. I’m not sure Jurjens will be the pitcher Cinncy is looking for.
I’ve heard something like JJ for Yonder Alonso
The Reds should trade Alonzo and Grandel for Sheilds who is much better than Jurgens.
I think they would be more interested in Heisey . Alonso is a good talent but he is LH and the Reds value Alonso more so than Heisey .
See Greinke does this thing called striking hitters out, it means you are very good at pitching.
Jurrjens does not do that.
They are not worth equal value in a trade, anytime ever.
while I agree that Grienke is a far superior pitcher.. The royals didn’t get an overwhelming return, the package sent for Grienke would probably be pretty fair to offer for JJ
braves aren’t comparing JJ to Grienke, just the deal for Grienke
Jurrjens is worth one top prospect, thats about it
true. but u could easily make an argument he should have started the all-star game this past year. when healthy he can be a very solid #2. all at age 25
Jurrjens and Greinke are two different pitchers . Greinke strike out his batters to get outs while Jurrjens fools the batters just enough to let them get themselves out . Just because they have different pitching styles does not make them differ that much in value , although I agree that they do a little . With that being said , I believe that Jurrjens still has a lot of value for any team . He’s young with 2 more years of team control and was an AS and arguably the best pitcher in the NL at the AS break .
You are right, and we Brave fans realize that Greinke and Jurrjens are not of equal value because Jurrjens is much more valuable over the long haul than Greinke. Jurrjens can carry a team at any given time with his pitching. Plus he is a good clubhouse presence and a very much “team” player rather thana “I am the STAR” player.
Yes, strikeout pitchers are good. But just because you aren’t a strikeout pitcher means nothing. Jurrjens uses his lower velocity to his advantage like Tom Glavine. He certainly wasn’t a huge strikeout pitcher, but he’s one of the all-time greats. I’m not comparing Jurrjens to Greinke, nor am I comparing him to Glavine. I’m simply saying that you are jumping to the conclusion that because Jurrjens can’t strikeout 9 batters a game every time that he’s a bad pitcher.
Cubs are looking to upgrade pitching, and they are looking to sign Cespedes or Soler. If they can sign either I think they should part with Jackson or Szcur in a trade along with someone like Byrd for a Jurrjens. Atlanta is looking for a right handed bat with power, would love to see the Cubs eat a huge portion of Sorianos contract and ship him the Braves, but I know that won’t happen.
Theo sounds like he could blow up the MLB to improve the farm. I’m surprised we haven’t anything about the Braves interest in Castro and/or Byrd
Theo might trade Castro for a few of those young pitchers like Delgado or Teheran, Beachy,Vizciano.
I think maybe Castro for Jurrjens+Hoover and maybe one more lower level prospect MIGHT be fair .
Castro for Beachy, Pastornicky and something. No way Theo trades his best player for someone who’s made 43 starts over the last 2 seasons. Everyone says JJ is a 1/2. Why is his arbitration value ~$5 mil??? Shouldn’t it be closer to Timmy Lincecum’s???
I think it is called a paygrade or pay scale . I don’t think they can just increase a player’s salary 10 mill from one year to another during their arbitration years .
Arbitration is more of a comparison thing. For instance, Clayton Kershaw made $.500 mil, 500K, this season. His first year estimate, on this website, is $8.4 mil. Jurrjens second year arbitration estimate is $5.1. Matt Garza’s second year was $5.95 mil. He compares to be ~16% lower than Garza and has big injury questions. If Wren is waiting for a Greinke deal, JJ will either be on the Braves opening day roster or the Braves DL to start the season…
Why would he be on the DL starting the season ? He was close to being ready to come back into the rotation at the end of the regular season . Plus he has the entire off season to rehab if needed .
WHAT? You want to go all in for a pitcher with these kind of peripherals? You do know what kind of defense the cubs have right?
As for the hypothetical if the cubs sign…; Brett Jackson can help for many years to come. Whether any international signing occurs doesn’t change that, mostly because of how barren the system is when it comes to outfield prospects. This proposed trade provides a great year of Soriano, Colvin, and Byrd (with Johnson on the bench and what, I guess in your hypo Cespedes in double A). UGLY with a capital U.
Yes because Adam Lind, E5 (E3 now?) et al all missed time with broken wrists this year. Oh wait…
EDIT: This was in reply to bravo_rob’s comment.
A blue-chip prospect and a couple major-league ready prospect should net Jurrjens, however, in this thin pitching market I expect the Braves to come real close to the Royals’ haul for Greinke and Betancourt.
Honestly, I don’t think that at all. I don’t expect to see 5 players be sent over for JJ, but all these reports that ATL will part with JJ or Prado for platoon players like Nunez or Seth Smith is ridiculous. Every other teams expect the same return as Wren expects with a pitcher coming of an all-star season for an all-star caliber team that is cost-controlled. We’re benefitting off JJ being injury-prone during his arbitration years, because it’s limiting his stats and thus, his price.
I would love to get some pitching from Atlanta, being a Jays fan
Jurrjens/Hanson for Hech, Thames/Snider, and a pitching prospect
Thats probably a little under what would be fair, being the jays arent giving enough, but something around that package
a package for hanson will be double compared to a package for JJ..
Hech, Thames and a pitching prospect for hanson is beyond laughable
I meant to write beachy, and yea I agree with you, Gose would have to be in a package for Hanson, along with 2 more of our top prospects
Beachy would still cost a lot.
Hech, Thames and a prospect is a lot
Depends on the prospect. No way Hech + Thames gets it done.
For a good young, cheap pitcher who’s under control till 2017?
Still not enough . We value hanson and Beachy even more than we value Jurrjens . And we value Jurrjens quite a bit . He was an AS you know ?
hech and thames isn’t much at all.
Beachy would cost a ton as well…
Hanson is off limits
He shouldn’t be. I think Beachy could be as good as Hanson.
I’m fine with keeping JJ instead of Hanson if teams try to short-change for JJ.
Thames or Snider have very limited trade value. One of them packaged with a good prospect could get Jurrjens I suppose.
Tommy Hanson would cost a LOT more than the Blue Jays would be willing to pay.
No team wants those players in a trade!
I like Johnny Peralta. Tigers are interested in Prado, I’d throw in Jurrjens for a good package. Something like Jair Jurrjens and Martin Prado for Johnny Peralta, Delmon Young, and Andrew Oliver.
Prado and JJ will earn a combined 9.5 million, and Peralta and Young earn a combined 11.8 million, so the Braves are adding 2.3 million and fixing their SS and LF issues. I’m not crazy about Delmon Young but hey, Johnny Peralta would be a very good pick, and Andrew Oliver has some potential. Peralta can also play 3B, and has a 6 million club option for 2013, that boldes well for ATL for when Chipper retires. And getting Peralta, will allow the Braves to move him to 3B if Chipper hits the DL, and call up Pastornicky. Oliver could be a useful trade chip during the season if they wanted.
For Detroit this makes sense because they improve their rotation and get a quality 2B or 3B. They can platoon Rayburn and Kelly in LF. Obviously this means they need to sign a SS, like Jose Reyes or Jimmy Rollins, which would be perfect for them since they need a leadoff hitter anyway.
ATL’s new lineup
CF Michael Bourn
3B Chipper Jones
C Brian McCann
2B Dan Uggla
1B Freddy Freeman
SS Johnny Peralta
RF Jason Heyward
LF Delmon Young
Pitcher
DET’s new lineup
SS Jose Reyes
CF Austin Jackson
1B Miguel Cabrera
DH Victor Martinez
RF Brennan Boesch
2B Martin Prado
C Alex Avila
3B Brandon Inge
LF Don Kelly/Ryan Rayburn
Braves wouldn’t do this, Prado for Peralta is fair, but uneeded. Young and Oliver for JJ is just bad imo, The Braves should be going for high ceiling hitting prospects, in CF and SS
Prado for Peralta wouldn’t be enough for the Tigers
You had better throw something else in there if you want Peralta for Prado. How about Young, Peralta, Smyly, and Oliver for Prado, Jurrjens, and Alex Gonzalez.
A-Gon’s a FA. I’d definitely be interested in Peralta+prospect for JJ+Prado.
The Braves have a ton of good players, but few great ones. I’d trade two good for one very good/great.
That would be a terrible trade for the Braves. They would be giving up an all-star starting pitcher and an all-star starting 2B for an all-bat shortstop coming off of a career year, a horrific outfielder, and a prospect. Blech!!
I’m not crazy about Young, but Peralta is very good. JJ and Prado have hurt their trade value with injuries.
Can you be certain that Prado will bounce back to his 2010 form? And JJ has pitched 43 games in the last two seasons, and finished injured both of the last two seasons.
Prado’s injury was a staph infection. That saps you for a few months, but doesn’t hurt you long-term. He’ll be fine.
JJ’s a bigger risk, but his injuries are leg not arm, there’s a good chance he’ll overcome his injury bug.
Put Prado 2nd, Jackson 9th, and push Avila, Inge, and Kelly/Raburn up one.
Prado isn’t a good 2-hole hitter.
Prado is a 2 hole hitter when he’s not hitting behind a “true” lead off man. He hit really well until we acquired Bourne and he had to be more patient to allow Bourne a chance to steal a bag. Point is if a team has a true lead off guy Prado is better suited in the 6-7 hole, if you’re making due without a base stealer in the lead off spot, then Prado makes very good contact and moves guys along.
I think the Braves should sign someone like reed johnson to back up the outfield, start tyler pastorniky, and sign a left-handed shortstop veteran to platoon with pastorniky/back-up SS and 3rd. Lets not make a trade until mid-season when contending teams will be desperate for Pitching, than we will haul in a large package! Oh, yeah, and go WIN A WORLD SERIES!
Is Pastorniky ready to start in the majors and if so, would you really want to platoon him? Can’t see that being good for his development.
i’m not sure how that really works, but i would imagine tyler pastorniky would benefit from watching and learning from a veteran about every other game.
Twins’ GM Terry Ryan won’t make this deal, and maybe ATL wouldn’t either, but I’d trade Ben Revere for Martin Prado. Helps both teams out. ATL gets a good, young CF and MIN gets a decent 2B/LF (depending on where the Twins would want him). I think it’s a better deal than the rumored D.Young/Prado trade with the Tigers.
Sounds like a good deal for both teams if ATL didn’t have Bourne playing CF. Revere wont hit enough to justify playing LF fulltime
“They’d also like to land themselves a young center fielder as insurance if they can’t retain Michael Bourn when he hits the open market after next season.”
Revere would be that insurance. Not to mention a defensive sub and pinch runner. Though, an outfield of Revere, Bourne and Heyward would be sick defensively if they did intend to use Revere in LF…
Chipper’s and the rest of Lowe’s !0 mill will be off the books next year . That’s over 20 mill just with them two alone that we will have to make sure our CF spot is secure . If we like Bourn enough to keep him , then we can resign him with what extra $$ we will have .
I understand that, I do, but re-signing players is never a sure thing.
No , but there are just a few FA options in 2013 that the Braves could look at . But they would have the money to certainly compete with any other team for Bourn . I guess it is just how bad they wanted him and if he (Bourn) wanted to come back .
It works for me. Bourn will probably sign a sizable FA deal next year, and it probably wont be with the Braves, so a guy like Revere would be great as a 4th OF next year, and a full time CF in 2013. Considering the Braves also have Matt Diaz and Eric Hinske, it would be nice to have a defensive first OF to compliment them. Plus I just really like Revere.
what would the braves be willing to offer for colby rasmus?
Heyward-Rasmus flip?
whoa, if i was the bluejays i would take that in a second
pretty sure hes kidding
Wasn’t really kidding. It is a pretty lopsided deal (for the Jays) though.
seriously though, i think rasmus would be a good center for a deal
Did Rasmus’ value go up or something?
what, a rasmus for jurjenns deal wouldn’t be so bad, would it?
Rasmus+ something maybe.
doubt it. jays need rasmus more than jurrjens, who probably profiles as a 3-4 type in the AL East. i dont think rasmus`stock has fallen that low.
I know Heyward had a horrible year, and we all couldn’t bare to watch him weakly ground out every at-bat, but that doesn’t mean you trade him for Colby Rasmus. He’s gonna be good, we just have to be patient. As hard as that is to say.
I know, I’m a Blue Jays fan.
I believe Wren is looking for and will find a similar package to what he got for Vazquez. By that I mean a solid young veteran position player to play LF or a SS like what they hoped to get in Melky, a high upside prospect they love who could be a few years away like Arodys Vizcaino and then some decent filler like Dunn was.
It’s really hard to tell who will give up the most for him as most teams could stand to add a pitcher like Jurrjens but that’s roughly what I think he will be dealt for.
It seems like Wren doesn’t make a move unless a power lefty reliever is changing hands.
striking out does not mean a pitcher is better. is greinke really better than a healthy jurrjens? look at their career numbers.
was hideo nomo better than greg maddux just because he struck out way more batters on average?
i honestly don’t think people give jurrjens full credit for his game. injuries are the only thing that has stopped him from being considered an ace
“striking out does not mean a pitcher is better. is greinke really better than a healthy jurrjens? look at their career numbers.”
Umm, wtf is going on today?
Ummmm
So I guess if you don’t strike out 8 or 9 batters a game , but only manage to give up a little better than 2 runs a game , the you still suck because you didn’t strike out a batter an inning . This theory that a pitcher has to strike out a bunch of hitters to suceed is ridiculous .
He said to compare their stats.. Greinke is a true ACE. Jurrjens is a good 3/4 starter
Correction ….. Greinke for one year was a true ACE . And even in his CY Young year only won 16 games . Which is the most games he has ever won in a season . So yeah , he was an ACE for one year in a horrible Royals starting rotation . He would be the Braves #3/4 starter , maybe #2 .
And take away that 2009 season , and his best other year in ERA (which is a good way in my own opinion to determine how good a pitcher is because it gives reference to how well that pitcher did in limiting runs allowed by him) was 3.47 .
Really, wins? So felix wasn’t a true ace when he got his Cy Young either I suppose. What did he win that year, 13 games or something…?
lmao. You should really stop posting because you’re either drunk, or just really have no idea what you’re talking about. Greinke would be the number one pitcher for pretty much every team in the majors except like 3 or 4 of them.
You are about as ignorant as your username . I think I did say that he was an ACE for that one year . He hasn’t put numbers even close to that since . And yes , Felix is an ACE . Regardless of his win totals , he puts up a respectable ERA year in and year out . Your comparing a great pitcher in Felix with a good pitcher in Greinke that had one great year and has been a little better than average ever since .
Teams JUST in the NL that Greinke would NOT be the ACE of the staff .
Phillies=Hallady , Lee both better options(Hamels may be a better option)
Braves=Hudson better option , (Hanson may be better option)
Nationals=Strasburgh better option
Marlins=Johnson better option
————————————————————————————-
Cardinals=Carpenter better option
Brewers=they already have Greinke , no better option
Reds=Cueto pitched well and could be possibly at least as good of an option
————————————————————————————-
Dodgers=Kershaw definitely better option
Giants=Lincecum , Cain better options
Diamonbacks=Kennedy arguably better option(we’ll find out more on him this next year)
I’ll just stop right there . Go to ESPN and look at JUST the NL pitching stat rankings . Greinke was ranked the 34th best ptcher and had three Brewer starters ranked higher than he was . He is not an ACE .
Strasburgh’s unproven. Cueto is not better than Greinke. Neither is Hudson. Kennedy is debatable. Johnson is always hurt. The only ones that are definitely better are Kershaw, Lincecum, and Halladay.
I seriously doubt that Greinke is better than Lee , Hudson , Cain . And Hammels be be better at this point than Greinke is also . And those were just from the NL . I could go AL and say Sabathia , King Felix , Verlander , and so on and so on .
Like I said , Greinke was great for one year . Other than 2009 , he has been fairly good since . But there are quite a few numerous better options out there that are either already in the league or are coming up into the league(Cueto,Kennedy,Hanson,Strasburgh) .
I was using the aces you mentioned. I would take Cain and Lee over him, but not Hamels. He and Hudson are probably about even.
Some food for thought.
This is an excerpt from a recent Atlanta Journal Constitution article about Hudson having back surgery:”Over the past two seasons, Hudson went 33-19 with a 3.02 ERA and .232 opponents’ average in 443-2/3 innings. For comparison, Phillies star Cliff Lee was 29-17 with a 2.77 ERA and .234 OA in 445 innings during that two-year span, and Giants ace Tim Lincecum was 29-24 with a 3.08 ERA and .232 OA in 429-1/3 innings.”While I understand that win-loss record and ERA are definitely not the best way to judge a pitcher, opponent’s average is a pretty good indicator of a pitcher’s effectiveness. Not saying that these stats “prove” Hudson to be an ace, but it should at least offer some evidence that he belongs in the conversation.
Yes but when a pitcher strikes out a below average amount of hitters, doesn’t induce many GB (43% or below past 3 seasons), has had a FIP and xFIP of 4.00 or better the last two seasons and would be moving from what most consider to be a pitcher friendly park, then yeah, those things do matter to anyone looking to acquire him.
So your saying that Greg Maddux , because the advanced stats didn’t agree with him either , was not a good pitcher . Thats one reason that the system that they use for the advanced stats they have out now I think need some work . They tell you that a pitcher should pitch a certain way to be sucessful . No matter how he gets the outs , if he doesn’t get them the way that the stats says he needs to get them , then he has no value as a pitcher .
We have had this discussion on our team blog , and there will always be acceptions to the peripheril stats or advanced stats that some of these guys come up with .
Really? Is that what you come back with?
When did I ever say that you HAD to strike out a lot of ppl just to be successful? What I DID say was
a) His velocity has dropped down 4 years in a row (and was down around 89 mph last year).
b) If you don’t have velocity then it helps to have a high GB%, which JJ hasn’t had over the last 2 years.
c) His ERA doesn’t match his FIP and xFIP.
d) He might have been somewhat lucky last year.
e) He hasn’t pitched 200 innings in over 2 years.
Mr. Maddux
-While he was never a hard thrower he ALWAYS had a high GB% (aound 50% for his career).
-In his prime had a FIP or xFIP below 3.50 for like 10-13 years straight.
-As for durability, Maddux had 21 straight years of 194 IP or better.
So to sum it up, Maddux’s performance and his FIP’s and xFIP may not have been mirror images but they are ALL within the same range of each other.
I never said JJ wasn’t a good pitcher. What I DID say, along with others, is that his performance doesn’t match his peripherals and that there are legitimate concerns about whether he can stay healthy and whether he can produce up to the standard that you and others are valuing him. “Braves fan” is valuing him as if he’s a #2 type and others disagree.
Braves fans see the kid pitch every year and every game . We know how good he was last year . Luck didn’t get him an AS invitation . The guy know how to pitch with what he has . And the velocity thing is getting old . Many bloggers including myself have tried many times to explain that his drop in velocity was done by him on PURPOSE . It’s amazing how much of a concern it is when the guy just came off the best year he’s had and was in the talk for the CY Young at the AS break . Velocity is NOT a concern with him . The only concern with him would be the injury . And I don’t think that it will be a huge factor with him . He has a lot of career ahead of him .
The Braves had one of the better starting rotations last year . And Jurrjens carried that rotation the first half . He is , obviously when healthy , a definite #2/#3 on most teams and a #1 on some others that need pitching .
Turner field is pretty neutral.
Jair Jurrjens isn’t the #2 pitcher for the Braves. That would be Tommy Hanson. In fact, I would call Jurrjens the #4 pitcher on the Braves; behind Hudson, Hanson, AND Beachy.
could not disagree more. beachy and hanson barely could last 5 innings in a game. jurrjens was shut down all until injuries, 1.87era first half and he always pitched 7-9innings. i would put jurrjens as the number 2. i still do see huddy as #1 though.
in a year or two, beachy and hanson could very well be aces. but they just don’t seem efficient enough to me yet. hanson would strike out 10+ but could hardly make it out the fifth inning
I sir agree with you . Jurrjens was the number 2 pitcher for the Braves last year . In fact , he was probably the number 1 pitcher in the first half last year before the AS break . He was the one that became an AS , not Hudson or Hanson . Although , I think Hanson should have gone instead of Voglesong .
I DON’T MIND I’ll TAKE ALL EM YOUNG BRAVE PITCHERS
I don’t think Jurrjens would be number four. I like Hanson in the 2 spot though.
This is how it SHOULD be.
Hudson
Hanson
Jurrjens
Beachy
Minor
I really like Mike Minor… His numbers aren’t particularly good, but I really think given the opportunity he would do fine.
Thats ridiculous to put Beachy ahead of Jurrjens…he was the best pitcher in the NL for the first half of the season last year.
I don’t really want to part with Austin Jackson, but if a deal came about where we could get one of the Braves better pitching prospects, I wouldn’t mind.
Austin Jackson would be fantastic.
what would the braves give for him, i think ajax is way overrated, his rookie season was nothing but a ridiculously high BABIP
what would the braves give for him, i think ajax is way overrated, his rookie season was nothing but a ridiculously high BABIP
Teharen for Jackson straight up?
Eh… I don’t know, I think i’d rather have Teheran.
I was about to say that we throw in Young and Smyly for Prado and Gonzalez but then realized that you guys already have enough outfielders so instead I’m going to play GM and propose a 3-team deal between Detroit, Atlanta, and the Yankees. Detroit would get Julio Teheran, Martin Prado, Alex Gonzalez and Brett Gardener. The Braves would get Austin Jackson, Drew Smyly, Daniel Fields, Asvial Garcia, Eduardo Nunez, and Brandon Laird. And the Yankees would get Jair Jurrjens, Delmon Young, Rick Porcello, and Andy Oliver.
DISCLAIMER: I KNOW THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN. I AM JUST TRYING TO KILL A COUPLE OF MINUTES
You sure are a dreamer. ;] But just to let you know, Alex Gonzalez is a free agent.
Son of a…..
that was pretty impressive except the Gonzalez part but if that actually happened it would shake the foundations of the MLB worse than a bomb-bird in a stone enclosure of green pigs
I don’t get it.
ever played Angry Birds? Try it, you’ll never put your phone down EVER AGAIN
Gardner is worth a lot more to the Yankees than he is to anyone else.
Kinda the same way we value Prado .
Eh… I don’t know, I think i’d rather have Teheran.
LOL. Seriously? wow. just, wow.
how about Vizcaino.
Teharen for Jackson straight up?
That’s not a bad idea. I could see this working out for both sides by adding a few pieces.
It would add a big hole in center. We would have to go after Cespades pretty hard if we did this. Coco Crisp as plan b. But if they traded Teharen then it would give the Tigers the top 2 RHP prospects in baseball according to mlb. com in Turner in Teharen. Maybe flip Porcello for Brandon Phillips or something.
what the hell are you guys talking about?? austin jackson just hit .249 at age 24, that is not deserving of a top 5 prospect.
There’s more than one side of the ball. Jackson is one of, if the not the best defensive players in baseball. What he lacks in offense he makes up for in defense. He catches everything. He also has a lot of potencial. You make 24 sound like 29. In what world is 24 the age of no hope?
i realize he has potential, but Teheran could be a #1 starter. He’s been compared to pedro. do any braves fans have an opinion?
yes, the pitcher I’ve heard Teheran most compared to is Pedro but without the jerry curls and lust for throwing old men to the ground
Who do you think Jackson could command?
Possibly Hoover/Varvarro or a prospect like them .
Wouldn’t even consider it. Not even close to enough to even make it an option. Why would we trade Jackson a pitcher who is a number 3 starter. And that’s if everything goes right.
you’re out of your mind. If everything goes right for Teheran he’ll be making batters cry for the next 15-20 years
Reading is hard isn’t it? We weren’t talking about Teheran. I’m pretty sure that Austin Jackson is only worth HOOVER (notice how that name isn’t Teheran) or VARVARRO (notice how that name isn’t Teheran, either.) Next time you want to snap at me, make sure you have your facts right.
my apologies, misread the continuity of the thread
I don see the braves making a move for a ML ready CF until next year…if they get one this offseason it will be a prospect for sure. I dont see a scenerio where Jackson is in the mix unless its next year if he puts up a good season in 2012
Teheran is untouchable . It would require a Braun or Kemp like return . And even then I’m not sure if the Braves do it .
Note to self:
Never eat or drink anything when you read a “Brian Stahl” comment.
You owe me a new keyboard sir.
I don’t owe you anything . If I bother you that much , then stay the hell away from replies . You don’t have to answer to everything I post anyways . This is a free country where I am allowed to post my opinion wether you like it or not . You are a fan of another team and know only what you read about or hear about from some other source who may or may not be entirely accurate . I don’t pretend to knbow anything about Yankee players or prospects but do know quite a bit about the Braves . If you don’t like what I have to say , then look away .
I said what I stated about Teheran because of the high value that the Braves have for him . He is our top prospect in one the best farm systems , if not the best in the majors , and one of the top 5 in all of baseball . So yeah , it would take quite a trade to acquire him .
Again , if you don’t like what I post , then thats your problem not mine or anybody else’s
LOL.. A prospect would require Matt Kemp in return.. TROLOLOLOL
I never actually stated that it would be a 1 for 1 deal . But if the Braves were to make a package with him in it , it would have to be for a serious return . Mainly because of how the Braves and Wren value Teheran , not how you value him .
Wren wouldn’t come off of any of their “4 horseman” for Pence . So their value is to the roof as far as the Braves are concerned . Again , not as far as you are concerned .
yeah, i love america, screw those damn communists!!!
Do you want a little cheese with that wine? Nobody said you owed anybody anything. It’s obvious that he spilled something on his keyboard while replying to you. We all know it’s a free country. You’re talking like a fifth grader.
And you would know this from your own personal experience being in fifth grade last year , right ?
I take offense to someone who pinpoints me by name like he did , and much like you would . If he or you or anyone else doesn’t agree with my opinion being stated , then just disagree with a reason why so it can be debated about . There is no sense in pinpointing a single person out just because of a remark he or she makes . The point of these blogs are for people to debate in a civilized manner on the subject at hand . Not to point fingers and call someone names .
I swear , I think I would have better conversations with jock straps than some of the bloggers on this site . Fortunately , there are quite a few bloggers on here that are willing to have mature and civlized debates .
So you have to accounts? He didn’t say Bravesdude, he said Brian Stahl. Obsessive much? And as you said, these blogs are for baseball debates. Not for you to cry for sympathy.
No I have an account on Facebook and another on twitter , if you must know . And there isn’t any body crying . I’m just not gonna allow myself to be bullied when someone is throwing shots at me over a computer blog . You wouldn’t allow it either .
And I had to switch to the other account so I could get back into the comments thread after I refreshed the page . But I like how you were quick to automatically assume something on what you thought you knew . I guess maybe next time you’ll think FIRST before you assume something .
But my assumption was 100% correct. You have two accounts. And for someone that is complaining about being bullied (which you’re not in any way, shape, or form) you sure are judgemental. Grow up, homeboy. This is evidence of the woosification in America. You’re an adult, start acting like one.
Aww…you feel better now that you feel as though you set someone straight ? Your assumption was not %100 correct cause I know what you were trying to insist pertaining to me having two different accounts . I refreshed my page after scrolling through the entire post and the site wouldn’t let me back into the comment thread . Then I realized that I also had a twitter account and that I could use it to get back into the thread . My username and avatar are different between the two .
And the guy I was referring to as far as bullying me , which how you ever ended up in this discussion is beyond me unless you’re also looking to start a verbal war which is a little childish on your part if you are , was yanksfansince78 . And I have explained myself to him throughout this blog and have offered somewhat of a truece to him by explaining my thoughts on this whole matter . Me and him both acted immaturely . I admitted my part . Wether he has or not , I am not aware of . That’s what an adult is suppose to do , right ? Admit your failures and learn from your mistakes and move on .
And I’m not nor will ever be your ‘homeboy’ . Especially with someone who puts their 2 cents in on something that has nothing to do with them in the first place . I don’t try and stick my nose into your business . And you shouldn’t be sticking your nose into mine .
I’ll tell you like I did him . If you don’t like my opinion on a post , maturely disagree and explain why . You don’t have to call anyone names or talk down to them as if they are children by telling them to ‘grow up’ . You don’t have any idea how old I am . I could be older than you .
“Homeboy” doesn’t mean friend. It’s the same as ‘dude’ or ‘bro.’ What do you care if I call you homeboy, homie? You think that you’re being bullied. That doesn’t exist on the internet, and if it did, saying “You owe me a new keyboard” is not it. Woosification of America.
what the hell are you guys talking about?? austin jackson just hit .249 at age 24, that is not deserving of a top 5 prospect.
It would add a big hole in center. We would have to go after Cespades pretty hard if we did this. Coco Crisp as plan b. But if they traded Teharen then it would give the Tigers the top 2 RHP prospects in baseball according to mlb. com in Turner in Teharen. Maybe flip Porcello for Brandon Phillips or something.
That’s not a bad idea. I could see this working out for both sides by adding a few pieces.
I am reading the Braves position a little different than most people. Jurrjens is a solid
2 type pitcher who has consistently outperformed his peripherals. The only trouble is that he’s had a hard time staying on the field the last two years. The Braves have a very young rotation after Hudson. If Jurrjens is traded and Hanson isn’t ready by spring the Braves will have four rotation spots filled with guys who have accumulated less than 400 MLB innings combined. That’s not a recipe for success for a team hoping to contend next year. Jurrjens salary is not prohibitive and there is no reason to rush the prospects. I can’t see the Braves trading Jurrjens unless they are given an offer they can’t refuse.
Prado is a different matter. He’s an all-star caliber 2B who’s bat doesn’t play well in LF and because he doesn’t play SS he’s not a good utility candidate for an Atlanta team with a bit of roster crunch. Prado would be far more valuable to team that needs a starting 2B, and the Braves would be foolish not to take advantage of that.
He didn’t out pitch his peripherals in 2010.
I’ve also read, don’t know whether true or not, that his knee might be worse than the Braves are letting on. Anyone hear anything about his knee???
No, but I’ve heard that same rumor.
And thats all it is , is a rumor . There are a bunch of rumors flying around right now in the MLB .
If it was a major issue , he probably wouldn’t have tried to pitch through the injury .
…if only there was a site that listed all these rumors flying around in mlb.
I think we’re on it . And most of everyone on here seems to believe that there is truth to ALL of it .
I don’t believe any of it until I see that there has been an agreement in a headline . Sportswriters get paid to speculate . And sometimes they will speculate on things for their respective teams , even if it’s not completely true .
But it does give us something to debate about .
The name of the webesite is MLB Trade Rumors, not MLB Trade Facts. If you only want facts, then go on mlb. com.
No thanks . I would rather stay on here and do my duty as a blogger by defending our prospects and players and undervaluing everyone elses .
It also intrigues me to see how little some of these bloggers know about the true value of prospects and players from around the MLB . Some of there comments and proposals are down right laughable .
I think you are addicted to the internet. This is not you’re “duty.” It’s just a place to talk baseball.
Talking baseball is the whole reasom I am on this site . Are you gonna follow me around like a little puppy dog and make sarcastic comments in reply to my post too ? Why is a Tigers fan even in a Braves discussion anyway ? Are you still upset over the whole Smoltz , Renteria and Jurrjens thing ? It’s ok . Life will get better , I promise .
I wasn’t alive when Smoltz was traded. It didn’t effect me. You’re making just as many sarcastic comments as me. Hypocrite.
…if only there was a site that listed all these rumors flying around in mlb.
Beachy should have more endurance next year, this was his first full year starting- he was a reliever in the minors
Minor should be a little better
Hanson the Braves need to stop babying- especially since he won’t stay with them.
Teheran will have to be watched for innings.
That said, the Braves will have two excellent long-men next year in C-Mart and Medlen.
C-Mart was tremendous last year , and Medlen I’m a huge fan. You have to get to the 6th/7th guy in the pen for the Braves to not be reliable. (and Varvaro/Gearrin aren’t bad by any stretch)
JJ can pitch deep into games more then Hanson, which is another reason why I’d rather see Hanson dealt.
I don’t agree at all that JJ does not compare favorably to Greinke!
Anymore then I agree with calling Jurrjens injury prone.
In 2010 JJ had the knee injury for which he had surgery, and his problems in the second half last season were related to the same knee. The two seasons prior he started 31 & 34 games. That tells me that he may have pushed it to hard coming back. He still was able to make 20 & 23 starts in those two seasons, while Greinke wasn’t the picture of perfect health either a few years back.
As for their effectiveness they have two totally different pitching styles but one could argue that overall JJ has been more consistent then Greinke, and equally as effective.
Add to all that the fact that Greinke cost the Brewers 13.5 Million per season for the two seasons he is signed for, and JJ is arbitration eligible for the next two seasons and will have to pitch lights out in 2012 to earn that much for the two years!
Then you’re wrong.
If Jurjens needs knee surgery he should get it before the season!
Jurrjens also failed to finish the season. His last start was August 31. He made 4 August starts. Three were really bad. Is it his knee?? Can it be fixed?? If I’m a GM, to no one’s surprise I’m not, I have every single doctor I can find check out his knee. If I’m giving up anything of value, I want 2009 Jurrjens. If his knee can only give me 2010 and 2011 Jurrjens, the price is much lower.
Greinke made 66 starts, 449.2 innings, the two seasons before the trade. Jurrjens has 43 starts, 268.1 innings, over the last 2 seasons. Making 23 extra starts, pitching 161.1 extra innings, has a ton of value…
The comparison was about their abilities not their contracts.
Greinke has averaged 200 innings pitched the last 4 seasons. His injury this year was a cracked rib he got playing basketball and it had no lingering effects. He’s also had 4 straight years of a FIP and xFIP of 3.71 or lower. The last two years he’s also added the ability to induce GBs to his repertoire (47% or better) to his ability to miss bats.
JJ on the other hand. Comparable in FIP, xFIP, IP and GB% in 2008 and 2009. Nothing at all similar to Greinke in 2010 and 2011 and those are his non Cy Young years.
And the last two years is ALL anyone is concerned with right now, especially when Braves’ fan is asking for #2 pitcher compensation. Bad comparison.
Ugh….you again….puke…..barf…..your post are making me ill .
Jurrjens last 4 years worth of WAR:
3.7 / 3.9 / 1.2 / 1.5
Greinke previous 4 years worth of WAR before his trade:
2.5 / 4.9 / 9.3 / 5.1
That’s 10.3 WAR vs 21.8. To suggest that they are remotely comparable is just silly. Throw in the fact that Greinke was coming off three consecutive dominant seasons vs Jurrjens coming off two injury plagued seasons and the comparison is an even wider gulf.
Sure WAR isn’t everything but it’s a quick and easy way to see that Greinke is the far superior pitcher – even when you factor in cost.
Those WAR stats of JJ are a little mistrued considering that they take in effect that he only pitched a half a season in those last two years . Even in 2008 , not one of his better years , it was 3.7 . So IF , just for arguement sake , he did finish out the season in those two years , you could probably add on another 4-5 on the total WAR . Still not as great as Greinke , but a little more comparable .
BUT HE DIDN’T!!!!!!!! That’s the point.
That’s like saying, the Carl Pavano signing wouldn’t have been hald as bad if he had pitched 200 innings a year. Sort of the point….he never did.
How Braves fan can act like not pitching more than 152 innings in any of the last two years isn’t a problem amazes me.
You are the biggest Yankee turd there is . Turd defintion : a Yankee fan
Did a Yankees fan steal your truck?
No , but this guy took upon himself to criticize everything that I have been posting about and pointing a finger at Braves fans in general as if we are a race and he is racist . All fans of every MLB team will in a sense overvalue , to an extent , certain players on their respective teams . And in all honesty , as Braves fans , we feel as though we are a little more informed about our own players than bloggers from other teams . Just like Yankee fans are more informed about there players than us Braves fans .
And the statement was toward him cause of his ignorance towards me stating that I , I guess , represent ALL braves fans . Which I do not .
You should post on a Braves site
I do . And they seem as though they are very respectful and very knowledgeable about what goes on . They treat everyone , even bloggers from different teams sites , with the upmost respect . Something that I can’t say about this site .
It’s just a shame that fans form different teams cannot show the same amount of respect for each other . We are all here for the same reason . These posts should be respected , even if the guy posting doesn’t know much about a player or writing on a blog site in general . They all have just as much a right to be here as anyone else .
At least consider what he’s saying before calling him a turd.
I have . But he has not . And it’s about the same thing over and over again . I wonder if he just reads between the lines or something .
I wasn’t attacking all Braves’ fans just those that choose to act as if JJ doesn’t have issues that detract from his value.
The fact that “facts” and “logic” get dismissed in favor of “I saw it with my own peepers” is just funny. Even if you don’t agree, then you have to come with better than “I saw more games than you”. Would it blow your mind if I said my cousin played for the Braves in the early 2000’s and that he and I talk Braves baseball all the time? There is a thing called “MLB package” one can subscribe too.
No it wouldn’t blow my mind at all . I played against Mike Hampton when he was still in high school in Crystal River Florida . I also did some side work and still talk too a guy that lives in Dunnellon Florida who is good friends with Chipper’s dad and Chipper himself . I also have Prado , Chipper , Heyward , Conrad on my friendslist on FaceBook . Big deal . That last part with Facebook is irrelevant , but I thought I would just throw that in there anyway .
But you stated more than once that “all Braves fans” in the posts that you have been making . Never once have you stated , “just those Braves fans who are in my opinion close minded” .
And the only real concern for JJ would be his injuries . And I told you in another post already that it has been stated , by an analyst (so you can take that how ever you want to) that his injuries according to several MLB GM’s may have little or none at all affect on his value . I have been using the whole age factor , because to me , that would be at least one of the biggest factors on what the other GM’s are thinking when it comes to his injuries not affecting his value . Or it could be that maybe the injuries weren’t as serious as first thought of . I honestly don’t know . All I can tell you is what was stated that I had read and what has been talked about on the Braves TV show “Braves Live” , which is where they talked about Jurrjens’ drop in velocity and the reason for him INTENTIONALY doing so .
OH MY GOD, YOU’RE CRYING TO EVERYONE!!!
And I see you are sticking your nose in where it doesn’t belong again . And crying is a HUGE overstatement on your part . Try again .
I just thought it was funny that a grown @ssed man called me a “turd”..haha. WOW!
I got a good laugh out of it too . Turd . I don’t even know if I spelled it right . But even us grown men still have that little boy inside of us . That’s why we can’t ever turn our head or acknowledge that the wife is talking when the game is on until a commercial pops up .
As far as uber name calling goes……buttmonkey I think still takes the cake .
Gonna go in a completely different direction as everyone else (and thus probably look stupid in the process).
I think we should trade Jair Jurrjens for John Axford.
Yes, I know the last thing we need is a closer with Kimbrel and Venters and I am also aware of the fact closers are vastly overvalued.
However, I am of the opinion that we used them both way too often last year because we were so dependent on them. Having Axford (another young, proven late inning arm) would reduce the workload on Venters and Kimbrel and thus reduce the likelihood of their inevitable injuries (with current workloads).
Fredi just simply didn’t trust anyone other than Kimbrel, Venters and E O’F in a late close game. It put too much pressure on them and they wore down at the end of the season and thus resulted in our missing the playoffs.
Axford is under team control for another 5 years, yet, he is a proven, high strike out, power arm.
Having Kimbrel, Axford, Venters and EOF would give us an absolutely dynamite bullpen and also null any desires to put Vizciano in the pen to help out our current roster, thus decreasing his value. This would allow him to stay in the AAA rotation definitely.
There are plenty of closers on the FA market that the Brew Crew could get to replace Axford, however, there aren’t any SP as good as Jurrjens. They also don’t have any other valuable assets that they could trade for acquire one.
Brewers wouldn’t do that
I disagree.
It is much easier (and cheaper) to acquire an upper tier SP than it is an upper tier RP.
Like I said, they could easily replace him with one of the many RP on the FA market right now.
The Brewers rotation looks extremely meek after this season, they may pounce on the opportunity to acquire two years of a high upside SP while only surrendering a RP.
‘only surrendering a RP’
If the match up is even why not Beachy for Axford?? Match up the years until FAs.
Mainly because Jurrjens is the one being shopped . Not Beachy .
‘only surrendering a RP’
If the match up is even why not Beachy for Axford?? Match up the years until FAs.
Come on guys, his name is spelled J-u-r-r-j-e-n-s. JURRJENS. It’s not that difficult. There is not G in Jurrjens. Goodness.
The way you guys keep trying to “jerk” others off on deals for your pitchers makes others think JurGens instead of Jurrjens?
Kinda like Yankee fans ?
You’re as dumb as Cashman.
Write this down. In the not too distant future you will both wish the heII you had gone after Jurrjens!
Yeah…but all they seem to care about is his injuries or his drop in velocity(which has already been stated by many bloggers that it was done intentionally) . But I think they do it thinking “Maybe the other GM’s will see my post and see it’s merit so it will drive the price and value down on this guy . Cause in all honesty , I would love to see Jurrjens on my team .”
Braves trade Jair Jurrjens and mid-level prospect to Rockies for Seth Smith and Tim Wheeler. Old news, but Rockies finally cave after Wren throws in prospect (#12-15)…imho.
Never gonna happen . The Rockies wouldn’t be the ones ‘caving in’ . Wren could do better than trading an AS pitcher for a platoon player with slightly inflated Coors Field stats and an unproven talent that we may not need if we are able to sign Bourn after this next year .
Enough with the AS pitcher. Phil Hughes was also an AS pitcher. And, for the saber guys, he won 18 one year…
And Hughes is probably gonna be a good pitcher . He has proven that he can pitch . Going to the AS game proves that . The same with Jurrjens .
And I could easily say ‘enough with the velocity issue’ . It’s been stated by several other bloggers other than me that in was done intentionally . You don’t have to believe it . No one is asking you to . I could care less if you did or didn’t . Only the people that ACTUALLY keep up with the team would probably know this . So I don’t hold it against anyone for not knowing the truth behind the matter .
And this a perfect example. I like Hughes a lot and hope the Yanks hold on to him. However, there’s no way in h*ll I would ever expect teams to evaluate him WITHOUT factoring in the negatives that have surrounded him in the 2nd half of 2010 and all of 2011. His value might be greater to the Yanks because of the way THEY view him VS what the majority of the others teams in baseball might value him. Thus, the Yanks might prefer to keep him vs selling low on him. Of course that might backfire.
Jurrjens is a good pitcher but all I have been trying to establish is that his value MUST be factored as such:
HIS POSITIVES (past accomplishments/skill set) – his negatives (health concerns, metrics, etc). It seems that most Braves fans just want to focus on the positives and nothing else. That’s not how most baseball ppl think now a days.
Look , WE ALL KNOW about his injuries . And it’s not like we aren’t taking that into effect when it comes to his value . But the fact remains that I don’t really think that it will affect his value much , if at all . And I have read this , either on this site or another , where an analyst has stated that other GM’s that are interested in Jurrjens feel as though his injuries won’t affect his value either . Just because you think it might , doesn’t mean it will . And I think the main reason for this is due in fact to his age . He hasn’t even hit his prime yet . And that might be why his injuries won’t affect his value much , if at all . That’s what I have been trying to tell you .
On a side note , I really like Hughes and his skillset . I think the Yankees should keep him . He’s probably gonna be a pretty good pitcher .
Age has ZERO to do with his health. Chein-Ming Wang was relatively young and his injuries have derailed his career. Same can be said for Mark Prior, etc. Not saying that JJ’s injuries were anywhere as severe as the others but still, he has two years in a row where he failed to surpass 150 IP. That’s an issue if YOUR team is asked to give up players of greater value.
And no, I’m not saying that Nunez is > than JJ.
I think you suggested something like Swisher + Nunez for JJ + whatever. That’s not an absurd trade suggestion. Others though, have asked for Brett Gardner and/or top 50 prospects. That’s absurd.
I actually agree with you on the trade idea . I stated Swisher+whatever(if needed) for Jurrjens+whatever(I’m sure that something extra would be needed , but maybe not a lot) . I would , personally , want Swisher over Gardner . I know Gardner in the long run may be better , but we MAY have a guy named Terdoslivich coming up through the system who tore it up in the minors last year who could be moved to the outfield (LF) who doesn’t need to be blocked in case he progresses over the next year or two . I’m also taking into consideration that I THINK that the Braves may talk about a possible extension for Bourn who would cement our CF spot for a while . Plus , there will be a few good options next year in FA that we could sign with Chippers (13 mill) and the rest of Lowes (10 mill) coming off the books . Swisher’s one year $10 mill would probably only work if we were to add Prado and his projected $4mill+ into some sort of package .
Oh and Prior and Wang are just two examples of pitchers who have been affected by their injuries . But there have been others who have been injured and came back nicely and performed even better .
Braves eventually deal Jair Jurrjens to Rockies for Seth Smith (Matt Diaz’s platoon-mate) and Tim Wheeler (our starting CF in 2013) after Frank Wren agrees to throw in a #12-15 prospect as bait for Colorado’s front office to finally sign-off for Wheeler to be included in deal.
You’re thinking of Prado. The Rockies were interested in Prado.
Gonzo is a free agent . Have at him .
Jurrjens is a 3/4 starter on the Phillies or Dodgers staff . He would be a 2/3 or better on most other ballclubs .
Does anyone realize that whenever there is something remotely related to the Braves on any of these posts it just turns into Braves fans and Blue Jays fans b!tch!ng at each other with the occasional Yankees or Tigers fan jumping in every now and then?
Yeah….and the fact that none of our current MLB players or prospects are as valuable to their teams as (in their non-proffesional opinions) as the league or other GM’s sees them . Otherwise we wouldn’t be having these discussions about why their teams are interested in our players . Not saying that our players are golden . They aren’t . But they have slightly more value than what alot of amateur bloggers are giving them .
It’s all done in good fun though . Yankee fans are the worse . That ought to stir the pot a little , he-he .
Blue Gays fans…Why do they act relevant?
If he’s healthy the Braves would be better off trading Jurrjens at the deadline. If he pitches well his value can only go up, and demand for high-end pitching is always greatest at the deadline. Plus, it would allow the Braves to get another half season out of him and keep their prospects in AAA that much longer. And the Braves will have a better sense of their own needs at that point.
I’m starting to think that this would make the most sense . Keep him in the rotation while giving some spot starts to the prospects (Teheran/Delgado/Minor) to see which one is the better replacement for the team after we do trade Jurrjens . Of course , thats if we do trade him at all .
I’d be fine with bringing him back . I’m not concerned with his drop in velocity cause we Braves fans that seriously keep up with the team almost religiously know why that happened . I saw him several times last year throw 92-93 MPH . So I know he can , but didn’t need too . Plus from what has been stated on Braves Live from time to time this last season about why he was dropping the velocity . I’m not too concerned about the injury either . If it does happen again , we will probably get another solid half of a year out of him for 5 mill and have suitable replacements just in case . Even a good half of a season from JJ like last year is worth the 5 mill he’ll get from the team in salary . I mean , you could look at it this way . For 10.25 mill less than what Greinke made last year , we had Jurrjens . Greinke had only 3 more wins and the same amount of losses , again , for 10.25 mill more last year than what we had Jurrjens for .
I used Greinke for comparison as well as each players last year and contract status because we are all making a huge deal in comparison between the two due to the stated “Greinke like return that the Braves are looking for” and the whole ‘what have they done lately’ attitude with Jurrjens and his injuries . The whole contract comparison was made to show contractial values to each’s team last year . And I would still take a half year of Jurrjens at 10.25 mill less than I would over Greinke , in comparison to their last year .
3 more wins is not worth 10 mill .
3 more wins would’ve mad quite a difference in your season as a braves fan. And to st. Louis, and so on.
Just making the playoffs , in the shape the Braves were in last year , and winning it are two different things .
Not to mention , we wouldn’t have been able to afford that extra $10 mill anaway . And Jurrjens only made 3.4 , I think , last year . We wouldn’t have been anywhere even close to being in the playoff picture if it wasn’t for his first half performance .
3 more wins would’ve mad quite a difference in your season as a braves fan. And to st. Louis, and so on.
Our salary cap wouldn’t have allowed . I think we did just fine with Jurrjens at 3.4 mill last year , even if it was for a half of a season .
And Greinke’s ERA was almost a full run greater than Jurrjens . You put Greinke on the Braves with as bad as their offense was last year , and he may not even win 10 games .
Three team trade.
Atlanta acquires Peter Bourjos and Johnny Peralta
Los Angles acquires Jair Jurrjens and Jose Ortega
Detroit acquires Martin Prado and Todd Cunningham
so…Prado AND Cunningham, essentially, for Peralta?
That’s WAYYYYYY too much.
No chance the Angels trade Bourjos and only get back JJ and Ortega.
People underestimate the year Jhonny Peralta had this year. Third in WAR behind Tulowitzki and Reyes for SS. Fourth best defense according to fangraphs. All for the low, low price of $5.5 and $6 mil the next 2 years. He could be one of the more valuable players in the league…
Sigh….another amazing Braves fan. Bourjos would solve most of your problems in the OF and give you a cost controlled CF replacement if Bourn departs. Peralta would at least be a 2 year stop gap with strong defense and decent offense from the SS position until you find a long term solution.
Cunningham is a mediocre 22 year old prospect at high A with a .691 OPS thus far in hist short career. He does do one think above average. He doesn’t hit for average, draw a OBP above .350, hit for power or steal a lot of bases. At age 23 in March what are you expecting from him? Prado is a super utility guy. You should be all over that deal from a Braves perspective.
Barf….puke….ugh . Yankee fans wreak with a smell of ignorance . Especially this guy . Go somewhere where your intellect can be respected , like McDonalds . While you’re at it , have a Happy Meal .
haha…I’m done with you. I’ve read several of your latest posts and it’s obvious this discussion is in a state of disrepair. You sir are the Herman Cain of mlbtr.
“JJ’s injury history is a bit of a concern to teams”. Replies “9-9-9”.
“Scouts are concerned with his 5 years of declining velocity on his FB”. Replies “9-9-9”
“His peripherals don’t match his production. One has to wonder if he was lucky last year” ……. “9-9-9”.
“How can you ask for an “ace like” return when he hasn’t been able to stay healthy” … ……….”9-9-9″?
(sarcasm) how dare you call this smart young man a molester? he has in no way molested this thread
I haven’t done anything more than what he has done to me already . I was merely just trying to prove a point that I could go behind all of his post and be just as anal retendent as he could .
One shouldn’t question whether he was lucky or not because he had similar success in 2009. If scouts are concerned about his velocity, then they should know it dropped purposely knowing that Jair would benefit from it and it showed.
Health is the only thing scouts should question and I doubt that should be much of a factor.
As far as the asking price for JJ, well Wren is only asking for what Grienke was traded for. Doesn’t mean the Royals got an ideal return for him. Jeffrees throws hard, but his stuff isn’t all that. More like a reliever. Escobar has the defense, but isn’t all that offensively. Cain was a pretty decent prospect, but he hasn’t done much. That was okay for Grienke, but not what I would call fair value for him.
He had success 2 years ago. How does what he did 2 years ago suppose to change how many views him now? Chein-Ming Wang was dynamite 3 or 4 years ago. Are the Nats going to pay him the same way now?
How is anyone suppose to know why JJ’s velocity has decreased 5 years in a row? Is JJ really saying. I think I will throw my FB 1 mph slower than last year. This year I’ll go a little slower. Is someone suppose to ask him why he’s not throwing harder than he did before?
Please listen to the reasoning you are using.
And it’s absurb to compare JJ to Greinke. They are not similar.
And why would JJ’s health NOT be an issue? He’s hasn’t been able to throw more than 152 innings the last two years.
Look, no one is saying he has no value. We are all simply saying he has issues which LESSENS his value from what it would be if he had duplicated his success and health 2 or 3 years in a row.
I’ll say it again for you . And I know you may not get to watch it from where you are located . But it has been talked about , during the regular season , on Braves Live on FoxSportsSouth that the drop in velocity , which has only dropped enough THIS YEAR to be noticed , was done intentionally by him to have better command and movement on his pitches . His BB/9 went from 3.2 in 2010 to 2.6 this last year , which was his best BB/9 in his career .
And if any GM lets what he decided to do to help his skillset affect his value , then they are just nitpicking . The real thing that they should be concerned with should be his knee . That should be their only concern . And like I have tried telling you before , I have read either on here(MLBTradeRumor) or on another blog site that according to an analyst(again , take what you want from this coming from an analyst) that it wasn’t much of a concern if at all for the GM’s who were interested in him .
Don’t you think FW is saying the same things to GMs inquiring on Jurrjens as you are accusing Braves fans of? When a GM is working the trade phone, he does the same routine as Scott Boras does with he FAs, he accentuates all of the positive traits of the player. It’s up to the GM on the other end of the phone to do his due diligence to read his scouting reports to see the possible flaws in a player. Greinke was traded a year after his Cy Young season, a season that saw his strikeouts drop significantly, his ERA go up 2 points, and he also had 7 years in the bigs before being traded–so he does have a longer track record to go off of.
JJ is a good SP, could be a #3 starter…possibly a #2–if healthy. A move to the AL could be helpful for him, since he wouldn’t have to hit or run the bases. Getting an impact bat back is key for the Braves and looking at who the Yankees would be willing to give up, Swisher is the better fit in Atlanta than Gardner because of his power.
If all you want to do is point out how ridiculous a speculative post by a Braves fan about what kind of return the team can get for JJ, then go for it. But understand that you’re starting to sound like the people you’re reprimanding.
I recall you doing the same thing to several of my posts . I just figured it was a fair trade of sorts . I can be just as immature as you can .
I would make this deal in a heartbeat (as a Braves fan) but the Tigers don’t have any reason to deal Peralta unless they sign Jose Reyes. And why spend $100 million on Reyes when you already have Peralta? Also, if the Tigers did sign Reyes, they could move Peralta to 3B and get Inge’s mediocre bat out of the lineup and use him as an expensive super utility guy, where he is probably at his most valuable. I think the trade makes sense on the Angels end, JJ would slot in perfectly behind Weaver and Haren and Mike Trout makes Bourjos expendable.
These comments are hilarious!
NYY fans are either retarded or don’t know $%&@ if they think Joba,
AJ, or Phil is better than JJ! The same organization that gave ATL
Arodys for Vasquez. They shipped Ian to AZ. Do I need to continue? Stroking
the checkbook is about all they can do right. They envy our pitching
farm depth.
I think you are the retard because no one said that either of those three were better than JJ. What HAS been said is that there’s a difference between how Braves’ fan values JJ vs how the rest of the world does. Grow up and comprehend the argument. Joba is not even considered a starter, let alone healthy, to even be in the conversation. And win a f*ckin playoff series or two before you start comparing our organizations.
I know you were obviously taking offense to the turd above . But you do realize that the Braves were the team of the 90’s , won 14 straight division titles , and have gone to the WS at least 4 times in my lifetime (against Twins , Indians , Blue Jays , Yankees) . You probably already knew that , just felt like stating it just in case .
There are fans from all MLB teams that do that , not just Yankee fans . As a Braves fan I would like to think that we could respect them as much as they , or any other teams fans , would respect us .
I can’t believe I said that considering the way that I myself have been treated , but would like to think that we could all converse maturely , respectively , and show some sort of gratitude towards each other for each others insight on their respective players and prospects .
Not that it’s ever gonna happen , but it would be nice .
TRADE HANSON AND ANOTHER PROSPECT TO SEATTLE FOR THEIR ACE FELIX HERNDADEX ,WE NEED A TOP PITCHER WITH ALL OF THESE YOUNG GUYS WE WILL NOT WIN ANYTIME SOON
Not saying a word.
You’re not even on my level . And I am done with you . You did impress me by being able to spell hypocrite though . Good for you .
lol coward. Won’t even insult me to my face.
Trade huddy and jurrjens for hamels and worley