Here's the latest from the AL East…
- "Gio Gonzalez has been a name widely discussed internally" by the Red Sox, reports Gordon Edes of ESPN Boston. The Sox are "extremely high" on the Athletics left-hander. We've also heard the Yankees and Marlins are interested in Gonzalez, though the A's haven't yet begun seriously discussing possible trades.
- The Orioles don't have to pursue an extension with Adam Jones this winter, opines MLB.com's Brittany Ghiroli. She believes if Baltimore's young pitchers don't show signs of improvement next season, the O's will have to enter yet another rebuilding process, and only then will the team decide if Jones is a long-term answer. If the Orioles rebuild, Jones would command a heavy price on the trade market. MLBTR's Tim Dierkes looked at Jones as an extension candidate in August.
- We recently heard from FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal that the Red Sox asked the Blue Jays about Toronto manager (and former Sox pitching coach) John Farrell. According to David Waldstein of the New York Times (Twitter link), the Jays asked for Clay Buchholz in return. As Rosenthal wrote, "the Sox never considered it likely that the Jays would engage in serious discussions about Farrell, and the conversations failed to progress," which isn't at all surprising if Buchholz was the asking price.
- Freddy Garcia could have found a two-year deal elsewhere but wanted to return to the Yankees, tweets Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News. The Red Sox were the only other team known to have an interest in Garcia, who agreed to terms today on a one-year, $5MM deal with New York.
Asking for Buchholz was the Jays way of saying “Go Away Please”
I heard that a few days ago and it still makes me laugh. It was definitely the put up or shut up response to Boston. lol.
Buchholz. Haha AA rules.
Boston has nothing the A’s would want or need or could afford other than Ellsbury.
prospects?
Which they lack right now. What do you want them to do? Trade away Lavarnway, Kalish, Middlebrooks and some of the few pitchers they actually have down there? Because that’s the start of the Dan Haren type trade they want.
The Dan Haren trade had 3 pitchers, 1 infielder & 2 outfielders (one who was Carlos Gonzalez). The Red Sox don’t have that in their system right now.
I’d be okay with Doubront, Kalish, and Middlebrooks for Gonzalez if that got it done.
Why would you trade away the best prospect in the system, Middlebrooks, when Youkilis won’t last at 3rd? Who’s playing 3rd in 2013? Jed Lowrie — can’t hit right handed pitching & is always injured?
On top of that, Doubront won’t get it done. More like Ranaudo and more.
This team needs to get younger, not older. Trading away prospects doesn’t help that cause. The farm system is depleted. The few bright spots are Middlebrooks, Lavarnway & Kalish and Ranaudo & such. Trading away those players after the problems this year would be idiotic. Especially Middlebrooks though because Youkilis will never stay healthy at 3rd.
And that’s the point. YOU might be cool with it, but no one else in Oakland would agree.
That’s not really true. What they really want is probably fairly dependent on what happens about a new stadium at this point, anyway.
If they are getting a new stadium in a few years they would probably lean more toward guys who are couple years away from the majors who can debut (or at least be new to the majors) when the park opens. If they aren’t getting a new park they would probably lean more toward guys who are major league ready, or possibly currently in the majors (guys like Reddick/Lowrie).
Either way though the Sox have guys who could interest them, especially since one of their big needs is in the outfield (OF is an area of relative strength in the Sox system).
Its a strength in the system, but that system is nowhere near as strong as other teams. Face it, there’s no Morrison-Yelich-Ozuna-Nolasco package that could be moved for Gio, that’s what the A’s need. The only matchup I could see would be Gio&Bailey for Ellsbury, and that’s not the best move for either team. It would be immensely surprising for Beane to trade Gio to Boston, its just not logical or happening. Kalish, Lavarnway, Reddick, Lowrie is a joke of a package for him and at least a dozen other teams could and probably will offer something better.
The Red Sox don’t have that one top notch prospect (like a Montero), but they could literally field 2/3 of a team for the As (with players better than what the As currently have on their roster).
Ryan Kalish and Josh Reddick are not nearly as impressive to others as they are to the Sox fans. Both may possess the tools but what have either done above AA to warrant this idea they can center trades? Just because those two MIGHT be better than any OF’ers in the A’s system is more a statement to the weakness of the A’s depth of quality OF’s in the system more so than any endorsement to the prospect status of either Kalish or Reddick.
That’s why if Reddick and Kalish were part of a package for Gio they wouldn’t be the only pieces (or even the center pieces).
i was referring to….
“but they could literally field 2/3 of a team for the As (with players better than what the As currently have on their roster)”.
…and then you only mentioned Kalish and Reddick. Kalish and Reddick aren’t quite 2/3 of a team.
I think you’re going a bit overboard. Regardless, let me expand my point. Just because the Sox MIGHT have better mlb ready prospects (doubtful) that 6 of 9 position players the A’s have it does mean that they should trade Gio for any package you want to put together. They can easily demand and get 2 or 3 players that might be better than the 2 or 3 that the Sox can offer.
Lavarnay is good. Middlebrooks might be too. Iglesias is all glove. Who else is going to make an impact on this team from the Sox minor league system that’s ready in the next year or two?
There are simply other teams that offer what the A’s are looking for in a trade for Gio.
The Sox may not be willing to give up that many pieces (and I wouldn’t want them to, particularly not for Gio), but this actually brings up a question that I’ve always found interesting. Would the A’s really be better off taking a package of 2-3 prospects with top notch talent in it (say Montero, Banuelos, and Nunez just for example) than they would getting a larger package that doesn’t have the top notch talent in it, but all of the guys are major leaguers for them next year (say Middlebrooks, Iglesias, Lavarnway, Reddick, Kalish and Lowrie)?
Again, I don’t suspect the Sox would be comfortable giving up that many piece for one player (and I wouldn’t want them to), but they have the talent available to do it without creating any holes for themselves (with the possible excepting of RF, but that could be filled by a FA at this point).
Of course they would be better off with 3 players with higher ceilings vs 5 or 6 guys who figure to be back end rotation and semi-stars. They don’t need supporting pieces. They need star quality game changers. And I’m not saying that because you used Yankee prospects (especially because Nunez isn’t star caliber).
The A’s struggled last year with Willingham, Crisp and DeJesus who are all as good or better than what Kalish or Reddick are projected to be. They need all-star caliber players. I think the A’s would rather have 1 guy who they could feel safe about being an impact player than a package of “ifs”.
I don’t think it is nearly as clear cut as you make it sound. Why would 3 guys who figure to combine for something like 10-12 WAR be better than 6 guys who figure to total something like 16-18 WAR?
If it were a team who had established players at several positions I think it would be easier to say that a couple top prospects would be better, but for a team that could use an upgrade at basically every position I’m not so sure.
I also think you’re underselling Reddick and Kalish a bit. Reddick was as valuable as any of those three last year and he did it in half as many plate appearances, and Kalish figures to be a perennial 20/20 guy with above average RF defense and good plate discipline.
Would you rather spend $20 mil on a Roy Halladay or $20 mil on Freddie Garcia, Kelly Johnson, Coco Crisp, Josh Willingham? If you’re a really bad team and your trying to contend then you go for Halladay. If your’re already a contender but you’re trying to elevate your team to the next level, have star caliber players already and just need to plug a couple of holes and add depth then you go for the second group.
Value prospects like you do money. If your the Sox do you go after CJ Wilson or do you perhaps look at Mark Buerhle + Heath Bell + Eric Chavez?
If you’re the Reds or Nats (assuming they can afford him) you probably prefer to spend on Wilson.
I’m not interested in knocking Sox prospects. However, Reddick’s value last year had more to do with his glove than his bat. Kalish has good tools but to act as if 20/20 and above avg defense is a given is overstating things quite a bit. If he’s that good then the Sox shouldn’t be looking to deal him at all since they have a gaping hole in RF right now and he would be a cheap option for a team with a lot of money invested in dead weight and questionable players (Lackey, Dice K, Crawford, Jenks).
The A’s would be stupid to trade Gio “just” for players who MIGHT be a slight upgrade over a below average set of outfielders.
That’s like a parent who is a HS graduate celebrating because his kid had 1 1/2 of a community college education. it’s better but is that what you really want to settle or get excited for?
I don’t think the Sox should be, or are, looking to trade Kalish. I
think he is likely their right fielder once he is back up to speed (he
missed most of last year with a collar bone/neck injury).
Back when everyone was talking about the Theo compensation Keith Law and
one of Callis or Goldstein (can’t remember which) said that they would
prefer Kalish to Brett Jackson, who was pretty much a consensus top 50
prospect on the last top 100’s. He hit 17 home runs and stole 35 bases in 2010, and is said (by scouts) to have the range to cover spot duty in CF (he originally was a CF) and has the arm for RF.
Six spare parts dont equal 3 quality parts!!
Those 6 guys aren’t “spare parts.”
I’m not saying they’re not decent prospects but thats all they are. And mediocre prospects at that. You can’t expect a team to accept Quantity over Quality when making a trade.
They aren’t bonafide mlb starters on a team looking to contend. You’re treating player value as if it’s a currency exchange.
You’re looking at it as…
Gio’s value is X- Players A-D = X, maybe x +1
It’s not the same as saying
$1.00 = 2 quarters, 3 dime, 3 nickels and 5 pennies.
I’m sure the A’s would like to acquire 1 or 2 players with star caliber potential and then work on building the rest of the team thru their own prospects or prospects they might acquire from other teams with high ceilings as well.
I’m starting to wonder if the Sox should trade Ellsbury to the A’s for Gonzalez and another prospect. Maybe not a Michael Taylor-level prospect, but maybe Sogard, aka Harry Potter the Wizard of the Baseball Diamond.
LOl at the jays trying to rob the sox, sox are not stupid
Nor are the Jays, apparently.
Lol at you thinking AA was serious with that asking price and not realizing it was a nicer way of saying “f%$& off get your own manager”
Yeah.. Like maybe you should think where Toronto got there manager in the 1st place before making that dolt of a comment there maroon.
thats why AA is smart and stole him from BOS.
In October 2002 the Seattle Mariners got a 4.8 WAR player in Randy Winn for field manager Lou Piniella.
Clay Buchholz’s 2010 WAR of 3.8 marked the only season the righthander posted a WAR above 1.3.
Winn was also a soon to be FA that played for the Rays and their WAS also a player sent to the Rays that was a top 50 prospect at the time.
If you look at baseball reference the actual trade is listed as Randy Winn for Antonio Perez who was a #16 BA prospect in 2001 and #52 in 2002.
Not quite the same and ppl need to stop referencing it to justify managerial exchanges.
Who cares what Boston thinks!! Good for AA to show Boston he’s not letting them rough house the Jays!!
Cherington needs to stop harassing the Jays about Farrell.
A simple “no” would have sufficed…
Or Cherington could have countered with Romero.
Romero is going to manage the Sox?
sorry, but countered what? they ask for Clay in return for Farrell and the Sox say no, we wont give you Buchholz but you give us Farrell AND Romero??
no I think he meant you want buchholz we’ll take romero…
lolwut? That makes no sense.
Why say no when the Red Sox Actually thought they were getting Garza for the Exact same thing…? Actually you know, Theo took a promotion so it makes it even more absurd.
A GM is a lot different from a manager. So it’s not the same thing.
Even ignoring the GM vs Manager thing, the situations were completely different.
they said no publicly, the Sox came and asked again. Asking for Buchholz got the point across I would think.
They publicly changed their organizational philosophy about allowing employees interviewing for lateral career moves without permission (like an open door policy from what I understand). The Red Sox called to see about getting permission to interview Farrell.
not sure what your point is. Farrell was a lateral move so the public change of policy addressed him moving to the Sox …basically saying no to that without naming names.
No I’m pretty sure the change was the teams couldn’t interview their employees without permission, so the Sox were asking for permission. I don’t think they ever said that employees couldn’t leave under any circumstances.
“The Toronto Blue Jays have amended their policy and will not grant permission for lateral moves,” Blue Jays president Paul Beeston and general manager Alex Anthopoulos said in a joint statement.
Seems pretty clear to me. They will not grant permission for any lateral moves. Permission will only be given when it`s a promotion like asst Gm interviewing for GM. Farrell was obviously a lateral move, hence the response when the Sox persisted was ok, give us one of your best pitchers and we will let you talk to him.
I would call a move from the blue jays to the red sox a promotion
In what way? Toronto 2 world series victories in back to back years. Boston, 2 world series victories within five years of each other, but both teams have the same number in the last 37 years. Boston are a mess, in-house squabbling, players leaving, front office a mess, Add in Luccino and his contentious pandering, where he wants all the glory and his hand in everything, compared to the Jays who have the best front office in baseball, no dissent, a team with future all stars taking over each position and the best hitter in the game signed for 14M a year, instead of the 25 or more Boston pays players. Boston are on a tight budget and are close to capacity, the Jays have an open budget that doesn’t exist, leaving 140M available for anyone they want. Boston’s minor league system is tapped out, leaving them no room for error in trades. Toronto have a top four system with players to spare that could easily be traded for any player in baseball. Now explain how Farrell to Boston would be a promotion. If you mention years of tradition, the Cubs have more years of tradition than Boston does. You don’t see many managers scrambling to sign on board as their field boss.
Well, I don’t think that Steve is right, and I literally shook my head when I read it, but the Sox are closer to contending than the Jays, which is ultimately what counts for the immediate future (read: the length of Farrell’s contract with the Jays).
Well reasoned. I would still take the Nation’s economics and a retool project, versus the Jays economics and rebuilding through prospects.Will be fun to watch if the Jays can compete year-in and year-out per AA’s vision.
“Toronto 2 world series victories in back to back years. Boston, 2 world series victories within five years of each other, but both teams have the same number in the last 37 years.”
Serious question based off the fact you’re naive enough to use this rationale: Were you even alive for either of the last two Jays WS victories? I could cherry pick numbers too: in the last decade, the Marlins have won as many WS as the Red Sox and Yankees and more than the Blue Jays. Does this mean that the Marlins are a better franchise than the above three or are potentially closer to making the playoffs than any of them?
“Boston are a mess, in-house squabbling, players leaving, front office a mess”
Yet, in all likelihood, they’re still closer to competing than the Jays.
I’m not arguing that Farrell should be given to us or anything (He’d be my top choice, but that ship has obviously sailed and subsequently been set ablaze halfway across the ocean), but the rumors of the demise of the Red Sox as a winning franchise are greatly exaggerated.
Heck, maybe you’ve got a short memory or something, but the mess we’ve got pales in comparison to the mess the Jays had on their hands as recently as two years ago. Or have you blocked out J.P. Ricciardi already?
“Jays who have the best front office in baseball”
By whose standard? I think AA is one of the best UP AND COMING executives in the game, but so was Billy Beane once. Until the Jays do anything but develop a nice looking minor league system, calling them the best front office in baseball is ludicrous. And if there were any Rays fans on this site, I’m certain a few of them would have objections to this assertion.
“Boston are on a tight budget and are close to capacity, the Jays have an open budget that doesn’t exist, leaving 140M available for anyone they want.”
Citation needed.
YEAH!!!! Gimme some of that s!@#t!!!!!
They publicly said any of their personel (ie Tony LaCava) could speak to other teams without permission. After Rumours of Boston interested in Farrell AA changed the policy to ‘only with non-lateral moves’ to squash the talk.
we actually have some good OF prospects and others we can trade
I can see Gio Gonzales in pinstripes real soon.
Not if it costs us the farm. I like Gio and he has been a hope of mine, but I at least want to keep some of our young ones.
Couldn’t agree more. A guy like Gio shouldn’t be costing two blue chip prospects; at most I would give the A’s Noesi, Nunez and a lower level prospect.
Why would the A’s want a SS/3B with no power, can’t walk and can’t field?
4 years of a guy who has been increasingly dominant and would automatically be the Yanks #2 is absolutely worth 2 blue chips and a young everyday player.
I think you, and a lot of other people (including the A’s, and other teams) are overvaluing Gio. He always had, and still has, a major issue with walks which would be exploited to a terrible extent in the AL East. He also has had a below average HR/FB that coincided with his success; as well as FIPs, xFIPs, SIERAs, and tERAs nearly a full point above his ERA. Moving to the AL East, and particularly to Yankee stadium, is going to expose him pretty bad.
Thank you.
Pete, I don’t think you look at pitchers Away numbers ever. Gonazlez is maybe a bit above average Away from Oakland, but nothing more.
Am I saying he is not good? Absolutely not. But Gardner AND Montero AND another high pitching prospect for Gonzalez is almost as ridiculous as Buchholz for Farrell
I like Gio and would want him if the price was reasonable. That being said, saying he would be our #2 doesn’t mean he IS a #2 by mlb standards. If anything, it simply speaks to the uncertainty of the staff after CC. Doesn’t mean we should get absurd and overpay.
That’s not a fair trade for the A’s. I wouldn’t include Montero, Sanchez or Banuelos and Betances would hurt my feelings but we have to give them more than what you mentioned.
Betances, Warren/Phelps, Adams, Laird and Mason Williams might perk their eyes some and not kill our system as we have some pitching depth to let go of Warren or Phelps. Laird is blocked by Arod, Tex and Gardner in LF. Mason might turn out to be great but he’s at least 3 years away probably.
I really think Warren would be an excellent pitcher in a pitcher friendly park.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush leagues.
I agree I would not give up a ton to get him… but I trust Cashman’s judgement. He would not overpay I don’t think.
Montero and Gardner for Gio gets done. But Billy would probably want an additional pitching prospect.
lulz
Brett Gardner in 2 full seasons – 9.6 WAR
Gio Gonzalez in 2 seasons- 9.2 WAR
Why should the Yankees trade the best defesenive outfielder and one of the fastest runners in baseball AND a top 10 prospect for Gonzalez who if you look at his Away numbers, are slightly above league average?
Then again, why should I listen to the guy who said CC Sabathia > Justin Verlander in 2011.
And since I know you like FIP
Home- 3.33
Away- 4.00
cherry picking
2010
home – 3.89
away – 3.67
2009
home – 5.68
away – 3.18
I know you don’t like ERA much but
2010
Home- 2.56
Away- 3.92
2009
Home- 6.75
Away- 4.69
His Away numbers still are not great. Again, what Pete said is an Awful trade.
i think you’re on the right side of this argument, just gotta make sure you cite good reasons. his 2011 FIP split wasn’t one of them, that’s all
even in a major seller’s market, i expect gio’s haul would be closer to garza’s than haren’s. he’s arguably a bit better than garza was and he comes with an extra year of control, but most of his value is tied to what he could become rather than what he already is
haren was much more established and unlike garza, gio would be going to a much more difficult pitching environment rather than an easier one
so i have to eat my words a little bit here after checking the numbers. gio has two full seasons under his belt. here is a comparison of the 2 seasons of garza and haren before they were traded using park and league adjusted FIP and ERA as well as SIERA and tERA
FIP-
haren 89
gonzo 93
garza 105
ERA-
haren 81
gonzo 80
garza 96
SIERA
haren 3.87
gonzo 3.98
garza 4.10
tERA
haren 3.78
gonzo 3.62
garza 4.16
gio is a lot closer to haren than i thought and even adjusting for league & park, garza doesn’t really fit in the conversation. the main difference between haren and gio is that haren had an extra year of proven consistency under his belt. gio doesn’t have that, but he does have an extra year of control
carlos gonzalez was a top 20 prospect when traded for haren, and compares decently with montero. anderson was top 40. they came with chris carter (fringe top 100) and some extras (aaron cunnhingham dana eveland and greg smith)
gardner and montero is still not a comparable package. but montero + betances + a couple extra (non-top 100s) would seem to be
but if i’m the yankees, that trade doesn’t interest me
Montero is nothing more than a DH. The A’s want pitching back too. keep on dreaming.
“Montero is nothing more than a DH.”
Something the A’s do not have (Unless Matsui comes back) and they need batting desperately.
News flash. Even if he’s “nothing but a DH” the A’s do play in a league with a DH. Also, he can probably play 1b as well as a Adam Dunn or Prince Fielder have over the last few years. You amaze me, and not in a good way.
Haha x 100.
I’ll give you an A for having the balls to say “Billy would want an additional pitching prospect”. That’s like saying I want a wife with great breasts, a brazilain booty, long hair, a college education and a great personality……and oh yeah, it would be nice if she were rich too.
And could cook like nobodies business.
Farrell might be able to coach a whole season without getting a weird back injury though, unlike buchholz
Try again Farrell was out for couple weeks with Namonia.
With what?
Can’t you read?!?! NAMONIA!
I can only give him so much credit for sounding it out and giving it a serious try, lmao.
but in reality it’s pneumonia.
No, it was a misspelling. He went to Narnia.
I’m glad I’m not the only person who came to this conclusion.
In an only tangentially related story, this is why relationships are the bane of a baseball fan’s existence:
Back in May of 2008, my girlfriend (Now wife, so if this story has a silver lining, I guess that’s about it) was looking forward to the new Chronicles of Narnia movie. I promised her I’d take her opening weekend (It opened Wednesday, May 16, Red Sox fans probably see where this is going and are groaning in sympathy at the moment). Friday morning (May 19, for those keeping score) rolls around and a co-worker’s had something come up and is trying to unload a pair of tickets for the Sox game at face value. I come inches from caving and buying them, but hold off considering I promised the girlfriend I’d take her to a 7 PM showing of Prince Caspian and I’d already ordered the tickets.
We go, the movie is absolutely awful. I hate it because it’s boring and hard to follow (Having never read the books), she hates it because it deviates from the book too much, all told, a waste of $30 bucks. We get back to my apartment and I turn on the TV, figuring I can at least catch the last inning or two of the Sox game and everyone’s crowding around the mound jumping and I’m all “wha?” until I hear Orsillo screaming “no-hitter” through my TV.
Needless to say, I spent the remainder of the weekend drunk.
…
Considering I think my decision basically came down to a coin flip as it far too often does, I take solace in the fact that somewhere out there is an alternate dimension where the coin landed heads and I went to the game. Because, really, there’s no other way to find solace in the whole matter.
Glad someone got what I was going for :S.
Oh. There must be egg on my face. You are some kind of sorcerer.
I’d still rather have Cito Gaston as the manager lol but Farrell will do okay I think.
Its Naomnia i dont care what anyone says, also “Know” is really “noe”. Get it straight !
KNOW YOO GET IT STRATE.
Oh I feel dum (not dumb) now, I mispelled Strate. Sorry!
He means pneumonia, which is a fluid build up in the lungs and can be fatal if left untreated. Farrell did have pneumonia and missed a couple of weeks to recover. Apparently spell check doesn’t work on these boards, because I have typed an extra letter in words and it doesn’t notice it, until it gets posted and then editing needs to be done. lol.
The problem’s your web browser if that happens. IE doesn’t have a native spell check, but Chrome does (And I believe Firefox does as well).
Yeah, Firefox does.
with NAM….NAM….NAM-MOAN-ia. IT’s an extreme case of diarrhea!!!
I’m surprised AA didn’t ask for more draft picks, considering he should be on A&E’s Hoarder.
Maybe because you don’t trade draft picks in baseball ?
Now allowed with new CBA
Barely. The only picks that can be “traded” are the six picks that can be won in the lottery round, and there are some sort of stipulations about trading them.
ok…receiving team only gets half the cap of the pick is my understanding. Didn’t realize only lottery picks can be traded. Doubt that ever happens.
Only with picks that go unsigned.
Big slap to the face. Pretty much threw the Sox asking for Garza from the cubs right back in their faces. How does it feel Sox? Make you think its pretty ridiculous huh? Not to mention I would rather have Garza over Buch…
1) it wasn’t ridiculous to ask for Matt Garza. here’s why:
2) there is a difference: Farrell is just a field manager, he is only in-charge of what happens on the field, where as…
3) Theo Epstein is a high-ranking executive, responsible for building the team long-term and bringing a World Series to the Cubs A.S.A.P.
4) The Executive is more valuable than the manager. hence, it isn’t insane to ask for a good player in exchange for the executive.
Well, except they actually gave Epstein a promotion, and that means the Red Sox don’t need any compensation AT ALL. The Cubs could tell them to pound sand and there isn’t anything they could do about it.
that makes no sense; they gave him a promotion so they shouldn’t need compensation? He was under contract…the Sox would have gotten nothing if he left after 2012 but as it is he broke his contract. that warrants compensation. and, considering what theo is meant to do in Chicago, they deserve something good.
Even Cubs fans don’t think Theo will do it overnight, so Theo’s need in 2012 is minimal. The Sox can ask for whatever they want, but they weren’t and won’t get it, and the Cubs have no reason to give it to them. He had one year left on his deal and it was pretty obvious the Red Sox were cool on him due to how their own season ended. Asking for Garza was just as absurd as the Jays asking for Buchholz.
Well, that’s how it works so it makes perfect sense. You get promoted, your contract is null and void. Pound sand. All the Cubs are liable for is paying the cost of finding a new GM. This is why Selig doesn’t want to get involved. It’s going to piss a lot of you people off that don’t know any better.
In his first years, Epstein sponged off the players Duquette gave the Red Sox and took the credit. Epstein added a few players here and there and drafted well in most of those years, leading to five players currently on the team. In his last few years, he sold the farm, mortgaged the future, added a ton of albatross contracts in Lackey, Crawford, A-Gon etc, traded away almost all his prospects that had any value and was facing not only financial ruin, but no farm system to compensate. With the new CBA in place, he can’t rebuild the Cubs from within as easily as before and that lowers his value as GM, because now he is forced to show his true colours. A blank cheque can cover many mistakes, but Cherington is left holding the bag in Boston, trying to clean up the mess Epstein left behind. That doesn’t equal anything higher than a double A prospect, regardless if fans don’t like it or not.
“In his last few years, he sold the farm, mortgaged the future, added a ton of albatross contracts in Lackey, Crawford, A-Gon etc, traded away almost all his prospects that had any value and was facing not only financial ruin, but no farm system to compensate.”
“A blank cheque can cover many mistakes, but Cherington is left holding the bag in Boston, trying to clean up the mess Epstein left behind.”
“That doesn’t equal anything higher than a double A prospect, regardless if fans don’t like it or not.”This all sounds familiar…oh wait, you just described the Blue Jays circa the end of 2009, a whole two years ago! Except Gonzalez and Crawford have a whole lot more to offer than Rios and Wells did and contrary to suddenly popular belief, the Sox STILL have a higher payroll allowance than the Jays.
And financial ruin? Really? They’ve maintained a sellout streak since 2003 and are the second most valuable team in the MLB (Worth just shy of a billion) and had the second highest revenue generated in the MLB going into last season. Comparatively, the Jays ranked twenty-seventh and twenty-fourth respectively. People keep citing Rogers as a reason the Jays can spend, but none of these people seem to be aware of how a business is run. They’re not going to funnel money into the Blue jays at a loss at the expense of other divisions. If the Huncback of Notre Dame is running a deficit, do you think Mickey Mouse is going to come bail him out (I will send a cookie to anyone who gets that reference and I’d bet on it being a Canadian as my all-time favorite Canadian is involved in it)?
I can’t believe you quoted Forbes as a source to value teams. Lets just say, Forbes has no clue what the Jays worth is, let alone any other team in the MLB. You will notice Forbes never mentions revenue the Jays generate from TV, Radio, Publications, full Stadium revenue etc. The reason for this is because Rogers (Jays owner) intentionally tries to minimize the Jays worth. If you do some research you will notices Rogers owns all the entities that makes the Jays money and therefore all this revenue never shows up in the Jays bottom line. To give you an example, Rogers owns the network that broadcast Jay’s games nationally. Last year the network Rogers Sportsnet made over 700 million in ad dollars. The bulk of that value was generated by the Jays broadcasts, which never shows up as revenue generated by the Jays.
Let me put it this way, if zero fans show up for Jays games, the Jays would still make hundreds of millions of dollars for Rogers. And don’t get me started on the hundreds of millions of dollars the Jays make Rogers outside of baseball.
Bottom line is that Jays are a large market team in the top 5 in the MLB. Currently they are not spending like a large market team which to many Americans makes them look weak but if you look at the facts and do some research you will find they are just as rich as NY and BOS.
By the way I post some facts in a previous post with you requested Citations.
I can’t believe you quoted Forbes as a source to value teams. Lets just say, Forbes has no clue what the Jays worth is, let alone any other team in the MLB. You will notice Forbes never mentions revenue the Jays generate from TV, Radio, Publications, full Stadium revenue etc. The reason for this is because Rogers (Jays owner) intentionally tries to minimize the Jays worth. If you do some research you will notices Rogers owns all the entities that makes the Jays money and therefore all this revenue never shows up in the Jays bottom line. To give you an example, Rogers owns the network that broadcast Jay’s games nationally. Last year the network Rogers Sportsnet made over 700 million in ad dollars. The bulk of that value was generated by the Jays broadcasts, which never shows up as revenue generated by the Jays.
Let me put it this way, if zero fans show up for Jays games, the Jays would still make hundreds of millions of dollars for Rogers. And don’t get me started on the hundreds of millions of dollars the Jays make Rogers outside of baseball.
Bottom line is that Jays are a large market team in the top 5 in the MLB. Currently they are not spending like a large market team which to many Americans makes them look weak but if you look at the facts and do some research you will find they are just as rich as NY and BOS.
By the way I post some facts in a previous post where you requested Citations.
Yeah, actually it is. Never in the history of baseball has a player of Garza’s ability been asked for in return for a front office player. Now, I realize there’s always a first but that was an obscene request that was sooooo obscene that the Sox immediately moved from and looked towards more reasonable expectations.
Never been asked for, or never been given? It may have been going overboard, but it’s not uncommon practice to shoot high on your original asking price knowing that it’s going to come down.
“Never in the history of baseball has a player of Garza’s ability been asked for in return for a front office player.”
The White Sox originally asked for Logan Morrison for Ozzie Guillen.
and got two meh prospects out of it.
Whether they got it or not, they still asked for him, which refutes the validity of YFS78’s comment.
A team had, previously, asked for a big haul for a poorly regarded manager, thus setting the precedent to ask for a big haul for a probable top five MLB GM.
Ok let me reword my statement. Never has their been a completed trade where a major star was sent in return for a front office person. Where’s the precedent to make them think that was a reasonable request?
When has a GM of Epstein’s reputation been allowed to go to another organization while still under contract? That’s just the thing, there’s no real precedent for it either way. The closest to a precedent before was the A’s almost getting Youkilis for Beane, which was substantial value.
You can spin it anyway you want. The answer is still NO!!!
it is pretty funny that they asked for Buchholz. The Jays were pretty much telling the Sox to screw, but did it in a joking manner (comparing Buchholz to Garza).
I don’t think the Jays care, even a little bit, about what the Sox asked for from the Cubs for Theo.
It’s a different situation anyway, the Cubs went ahead and came to an agreement with Theo before even asking about the cost of acquiring him (why wouldn’t the Sox ask for the world in that situation really?). If the Jays were interested at all in trading Farrell, asking for something so outrageous is a terribly bad idea. They aren’t interested in trading Farrell, so asking for Buchh amounts to a “no” in this situation. The Sox asking for Garza, was setting their bar really high (while the Cubs undoubtedly set their original bar really low) and both teams would meet somewhere in the middle; it’s fairly normal bargaining practice.
reddick lowrie lars and kalish 4 gio
I’d do that, seems fair to me.
Sox fan maybe?
Are you being ironic or retarded?
Still laughing 45 seconds later….
I’d have to imagine that the Sox would do that in an instant, but the A’s would say no.
That’s a slap in the face to the A’s. Boston gets laughed off the phone.
Maybe your Mets should get Gio.
Dude, what? Man, I would drive them to the Oakland line if that were a possibility. Mind you, if you want me to enter the city limits, Kalish is off the table.
Oh my F god……….If the Jays gave the Red Sox John Farrell for Clay Bucholtz I would be so happy(Jays fan). Finding a manager is easy, an amazing 2nd starter….not so much. I wish I never read that because now I’m hopeful even though I know it will never happen
You said it yourself…so you can stop wishing now.
That one season of a lot of luck but impressive numbers definitely qualifies as “amazing second starter”, good call.
Yeah you’re right a 3.61 FIP in that lucky season, what a chump.
i appreciate the writers for the mlbtr who work even during the holidays. the articles are very informative and entertaining. thank you!
Its not a holiday, Thanksgiving was a month ago.
sewer dweller?
LOL the irony…
sewer dweller?…back at you
considering your nickname, i understand your lack of brain cells.
I don’t believe many (any?) of the writers for MLBTR are from Canada.
Pretty sure Ben is.
and it’s on a Monday
Does anybody else find Adam Jones to be absurdly overrated? A once top prospect should HAVE to be seen for what he currently is, not what people once thought he would become. He’s been around long enough that people should stop thinking, “Oh man, I can’t believe the Mariners dealt him for Bedard,” and should be seeing him for what he really is: barely above-average, and not showing the signs of a superstar that everybody seemed to think he was destined to be.
A hair under 2,500 career plate appearances, he has a career .319 OBP and a walk rate far too low to supplament his strike out rates, and defense that has rated far below-average…
Why is he seen in such a high regard? Why would he require a “heavy price”?
He’s 25 and already has about 9 career WAR. Buy a clue.
You say that like WAR is some infallible statistic that is the be-all, end-all of analysis. Saying he’s accumulated 9 WAR would mean something to me if it was in two full seasons, not four. Sure, he’s 26, but the core skills aren’t showing signs of life that should make me believe he’s going to start drawing walks, making better contact, and posting .300/.400/.500 slash lines.
And, like I posted, his peripheral statistics aren’t screaming “superstar”, so yeah, go ahead about buy yourself a clue.
Do the Red Sox even have the right pieces for a trade???
How many more times will we be hearing the Orioles and rebuilding in the same sentence??? Maybe it’s time for something new
“Do the Red Sox even have the right pieces for a trade???”
In a word, yes.
Who do they have to trade? Are they going to trade away Middlebrooks (Youkilis is breaking down), Lavarnway (catcher, first right handed power bat developed since Youkilis), Kalish (hands down better than Reddick), Ranaudo (one of their few pitching prospects that may not take another 10 years to get here), etc.?
They actually don’t have the right pieces for a trade. The A’s want a Dan Haren type deal — which was 3 pitching prospects, an infielder & 2 outfielders. The Red Sox farm system is depleted and empty.
Whether they want to give them up is a completely separate question from “do they have them?” They have the prospects to make a fair offer for Gio, whether they want to give them up or not I don’t know.
Wanting a “Haren” type deal doesn’t mean that they want that exact assortment of prospects.
Yes, and if they give up the prospects for a #3 pitcher who has a terrible walk rate, terrible numbers at Fenway & terrible numbers against the AL East, & deplete their system even more they’ll run into the same problems they had last year — players get injured & they have nobody to replace them (Youkilis, Buchholz, Drew).
I know, if you’ve read my other comments you’d know that I don’t want them to trade for him. None of this changes the fact that they actually have the prospects to do it though.
In no way does Boston have the pieces to trade for Gio Gonzalez unless its Ellsbury.
a bunch out of lavarnway, kalish, britton, bentz, reddick, ranaudo, middlebrooks (it’d have to include him), doubront, tazawa, and then add in a throw-in or two should get it done.
And why would they trade Middlebrooks when Youkilis is breaking down at 3rd? Why would they trade Lavarnway when they need a catcher & a right handed power bat (and he’s the first of the latter to come out the Red Sox system since Youkilis)? Why would they trade Ranaudo & Britton when their pitching in their farm system is depleted?
Middlebrooks isn’t nearly the player that Youkilis is and I’d give Youkilis another year before I decide that he can’t handle third base. There’s also the fact that Youkilis is still one of the better hitters in the game, and is on the team for two more years at a fairly team friendly rate. Plus the fact that even when Middlebrooks takes over 3B it’s probably only for a year or two if Bogaerts is moved from SS to 3B.
Lavarnway is likely nothing more than a part time, or back up, catcher and is most likely slated for DH. (it’s not certain, but it’s definitely most likely)
Ranaudo projects as a #3, so trading him for a current #3 isn’t a terrible idea, plus they have a few other guys who project as well as Ranaudo, and who aren’t really any further away from the majors. It’s really the upper minors that is devoid of pitching, the lower minors isn’t great, but it isn’t terrible pitching wise.
I still wouldn’t trade Middlebrooks. Because coming off hernia surgery & whatever else Youkilis was suffering from can be difficult (see Mike Cameron, although that is Mike Cameron).
And the point about Ranaudo isn’t even about Ranaudo. It’s about not having any pitching in the farm system.
And even if Lavarnway is a full-time DH, I still wouldn’t trade him. It’s not like Ortiz is going to be here forever & I highly doubt he has the season he had last year. He’s more likely to go back to what he was before that — not being able to hit left handed pitching.
If the pitcher was someone with the skill of Roy Halladay, that’s one thing. I just don’t see Gio Gonzalez as that good of a pitcher. The Red Sox have enough #2 pitchers & #3 pitchers. I wouldn’t give up that much for a guy who’s not an ace.
The Red Sox don’t have enough in their system to even touch a pitcher like Halladay, that’s just the price it would take to get a pitcher like Gio (particularly with as much team control as he has).
“And the point about Ranaudo isn’t even about Ranaudo. It’s about not having any pitching in the farm system.” – You
“…plus they have a few other guys who project as well as Ranaudo,
and who aren’t really any further away from the majors.” – Me
Only Ryan Lavarnway and Anthony Ranaudo would be of much interest to the Athletics and a package headed by those two would not get the deal done.
You’re offering more quantity that quality.
You know what’s funny? The majority of the guys you mentioned WOULD be the “throw ins” in a Gio deal (see Kalish, Doubront, Tazawa, Reddick and Britton). It’s too early to call Britton a bust and Tazawa is coming off of TJ surgery but their value is wayyyyyyyy down right now.
“The Orioles have announced that they have given up on rebuilding and accepted their lot in life.”
Same formula, new spin.
Does anyone else think Markakis will be traded this winter?
I’d have traded Markakis two years ago when it was clear that the O’s weren’t going to be good enough to compete in the AL East for 5 years. Now they’re probably still 4-5 years from having a chance, and Markakis is probably past his prime and getting more expensive.
He’s 27, he’s in his prime, which traditionally is 27-33.
He’s 28, and his best season was 3 years ago.
That’s not true. Most current research suggests 28 begins the decline years.
For defense, offense doesn’t generally peak until 32.
28 is considered their prime for a star caliber player. Look at guys like Fielder (27), Braun (28), Granderson (30), Tulo (27), Cano (29), etc. True they are exceptional players but they are all in their prime now.
He’s correct, although so are you. Just depends on what you’re trying to define peak. Aggregate numbers show 27 as the peak age season(although some other studies, including one in the past year by JC Bradbury, target 28 as peak), but that’s kind of meaningless. Some players have their best season at 25, some have at 30. Peak range is roughly 26-31, but some players decline very gradually and others rapidly. I’d be way more comfortable with a 30-year-old player like Granderson coming off a career year than I would be with a younger Markakis, who is already three years removed from his best season.
What do you think the O’s would want? Pitching I guess. I always like Nick. I think he would be a great addition to any team, but the Phllies need a LF. If they ate about 8 million, to make the contract 10 12 12 for the next three years, I’m sure they could get a good pitching pitching prospect and a reliever out of it…guys like Colvin, Pettibone, DeFratus, Schwimer types…maybe if they ea more money, May comes into the picture…I dont know.
The return after his 5.5WAR season (’08 I think) would have been huge. Probably could have gotten 4 prospects for him, depending on the market. I obviously don’t know what the market was like at the deadline of the ’08 season, but given his age and the fact that it was only his 3rd season in the league (3+ years of control), liken it to what Mike Stanton would get today.
I’m thinking one good prospect and a throw in if the team absorbs a lot of the contract. If I’m a contender I would ask for 8 million to make the next three year 10 12 12… And see what that would do. It would save the Orioles 34 million over the next three years and they can lock up Jones and Weiters and build around pitching.
Red Sox should have said “Garza” when the Cubbies came calling for Epstein. Now we are #^&@*’ed…
they did… You were never getting him though.
No one is going to take you serious with your knockoff bleacher creature profile, find a new gimmick.
Yeah, because most people who have common sense know who bleacher creature is. The awesome guy who types in all caps the entire time. Do I care? No…
If the Sox got Gio Gonzalez… man I’m just dreaming about it now.
totally…
Yankee fan?
AA should have asked Red Sox for Garza BAHAHAHAHA
Sounds like a great deal…Farrell from Sox, Garza to Jays.
trading Gio this year makes zero sense. Beane could trade him next offseason and recieve just about the same type of package. For the A’s to recieve a fair return from the Yanks, they’d have to get Montero, Banuelos, Gary Sanchez, Slade Heathcott and a couple lower level guys with promise. Even then I’d be surprised if any of them become a 4 war player like Gio has become.
^ lol. You want the rest of our farm, or just the 3 best prospects? You would have to give us more than Gio just for Montero. Fact.
Montero will be a DH. He would be lucky to post 3 WAR seasons. He’s hardly as valuable as people here think he is.
And if you’ve noticed, #2 type pitchers dealt with a year of control always return at least one top prospect. Why wouldn’t 4 years of Gio return 4 top prospects?
Because it’s debatable whether Gio is really even a #2, and because trades aren’t exactly linear like that.
For the most part, yes they are. For every year of team control, there is always a top prospect. Haren with 3 years = Cargo, Brett Anderson, Chris Carter+.2 years of Matt Garza, same thing. Two top prospects in Ju Lee and Archer and quality players in Fuld.
Heck, look at Ubaldo, in the midst of a dissapointing season, velocity down, rumblings of an injury, he STILL fetched two of the Indians top prospects. 2 and half years of team control. Coincidence? i think not
They aren’t trading montero. He was called up for like half a month and hit two opposite field homers, almost a third, and had another to left field. Cash knows he needs the kids to build around.
The jays should trade for Gio.
Romero/Morrow/Gio/Cecil/Drabek looks pretty nice to me.
You spelled Alvarez wrong.
ya if u give us lawrie
Come on now you know AA wouldnt trade Lawrie, would you? Not sure anyone would at this point, dude is a freak athlete.
*cricket*
Not sure why everyone thinks Gio Gonzalez could get a return of 5 prospects..You really think hes THAT good that he could bring back that many top prospects? Give me some of what your all smokin..Kids good Ill admit, but not that good IMO…
ya he is believe me
Depends on the 5 prospects I guess. He’s not as good as some people seem to think he is, but he is good and he does still have several years of team control left.
Yeah….5 prospects from the Royals, Rays, Yanks, Jays, Braves is different than 5 from the Astros, Marlins or Tigers.
Hes good, no doubt about it, but not worth 5 top prospects..haren was their Ace and more proven than Gio..If any team gives up 5 top prospects for him they are out of their minds IMO..
Do the Red Sox even have enough impact prospects left to interest the A’s for someone of Gio’s level?
Yes… Iglesias, Middlebrooks, Lavarnway and so on.
Well, if you’re talking “impact” prospects..the “and so on” is fairly limited..
She believes if Baltimore’s young pitchers don’t show signs of improvement next season, the O’s will have to enter yet another rebuilding process! I like Brittany, she seems ok. However, if I were a member of the Oriole Front Office, which I am clearly not, but if I were I would not wait till after the 2012 season to do something.
I would trade that whole entire outfield (Reimold, Jones and Markakis) and a pitcher of the A’ s choice. I think we would lose Britton, but so be it.
If the Orioles could get Gio Gonzalez, Trevor Cahill and Andrew Bailey and after that hire a new pitching coach. To me Adair should go back to the bullpen, he’s fine there. Not fine as our pitching coach. Anyway, if the Orioles pull this off, they actually might have a chance of doing something within the AL East and snag a Wild Card Position. If they don’t the remaining fan base should take a vacation for the entire 2012 season because the Orioles have no shot as it currently stands. Brittany, I would not wait for the end of 2012, I would do it now!
PS Clay Buchholz for John Farrell, now that’s pretty funny stuff!