The latest on the Cubs' attempt to add Red Sox GM Theo Epstein to their front office…
- Epstein is actively looking to hire a general manager to join him in Chicago, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. The 37-year-old is exploring GM candidates while he waits for the Red Sox and Cubs to work out compensation for his departure. The Cubs would bring Epstein in as their president of baseball operations and he would hire a general manager to assist with the daily grind of the job.
- The Red Sox are "holding tough" on their asking price and don't anticipate resolution tonight, according to Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe (on Twitter).
- Hoyer told Marty Caswell of XX1090 Sports Radio that he's not going to comment on media speculation (Twitter links). "I'm excited about what we continue to build here in San Diego," he said.
- The Cubs haven't asked for permission to talk to any Padres executives, according to Dan Hayes of the North County Times (Twitter link).
- Carrie Muskat of MLB.com points out that obtaining Hoyer could prove difficult, as he is under contract through 2013 with an option for 2014 (Twitter link). But Tom Krasovic of Inside the Padres doubts owner Jeff Moorad would hold up a deal if it meant Byrnes became the Padres' next GM (Twitter link).
- Current Padres GM Jed Hoyer is being considered by the Cubs and Epstein, tweets SI's Jon Heyman. In that scenario, Josh Byrnes would become the Padres' GM. Heyman notes that the Cubs are also looking at Padres executives Byrnes and Jason McLeod for themselves, should Hoyer stay. All the executives were once members of the Boston front office with Epstein.
- Yesterday we learned that the Red Sox started out the Epstein compensation discussions by asking the Cubs for righty Matt Garza, which CSNNE.com's Sean McAdam says was "rejected out of hand." Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe says that "the sides slowly have moved their position to a more realistic center" as they discuss Cubs prospects.
- Cafardo says the Red Sox have been focusing on Trey McNutt, Brett Jackson, Matt Szczur, and Josh Vitters, the latter three labeled as unlikely by Patrick Mooney of CSNChicago.com yesterday. McNutt and Andrew Cashner are unlikely as well, writes Paul Sullivan of the Chicago Tribune, while McAdam says McNutt's inclusion is "far from guaranteed at this point."
- An announcement today has been ruled out, writes McAdam, with "significant work" remaining to reach an agreement on compensation. He says Friday's World Series off-day is the earliest possibility, assuming the teams come to terms and get Bud Selig's permission for an announcement. McAdam says that although progress has been made, the Cubs feel that precedent calls for minimal compensation while the Sox think this situation defies precedent.
- McAdam writes that the issue of Epstein taking Red Sox employees with him is not an issue, with a mutual understanding in place that he will not raid Boston's baseball operations department.
- Most reports, including this one from Gordon Wittenmyer of the Chicago Sun-Times, suggest that the five-year, $18.5MM deal between Epstein and the Cubs is not in jeopardy. Still, as Cafardo notes, both teams have a lot of team-building to do.
Epstein = Roberts = Peavy
what?
He’s saying Epstein may be the next sure-thing-about-to-be-announced that the Cubs have to let go.
This situation is actually hilarious let me try to explain why.
If Hendry was with the Cubs, giving up a prospect would be an easy trigger-happy, no-brainer, but because this is a trade for the guy who is replacing Hendry and Hendry is gone, its become incredibly dicey.
At least I find that hilarious. Actually if Theo was GM overseeing the situation he might be more trigger-happy too, except that it would be his farm system and he’d essentially be giving up the player for himself and therefore gaining nothing for himself but ::head explodes::
I AM NOT WORTH A B PROSPECT YOU FOOLS
ohh yeah that makes sense. I’m even from Chicago and when I saw Roberts i couldn’t think of who it was at first haha yeah I’m a White Sox fan and I’m definitely not looking forward to the next couple of years…
Oh good.
The compensation should be what Boston should send to Chicago for relieving them from paying the last year of Epstein’s contract and the vesting bonus. $160,257,476 payroll and doesn’t even make the playoffs. The clubhouse seems a shambles and the team in disarray. Players looking to bail. Breaking the bambino’s curse seemed more a factor of spending until they won one rather then good management. Seems Epstein should fit pretty well in Chicago.
Compensation should be whatever a lousy organization is foolish enough to give.
exactly, they should be putting themselves in the cubs position and see what they’d give.
Do you know how negotiating works? Because that’s not it…
Actually, negotiations do start with the premise of “what would i NOT give them if I were them?”, “what would my reaction be if they ask for my best prospects if i were them?”, that way, they can create various scenarios and know beforehand how to act when you ask them for somebody/something and they say no.
They were in the Cubs’ position in 2002. And their opinion was that fair compensation for the Athletics letting Billy Beane out of the SIX remaining years of his contract was allegedly a minor leaguer named Kevin Youkilis who had only been drafted the year before. Beane decided to stay in Oakland, which led to Epstein as Boston’s GM.
Compensation should be whatever a lousy organization is foolish enough to give.
W.T.F
“And will throw in a snickers bar to sweeten up the deal a bit…” -Ben Cherington
This is getting crazy.if we dont get at mcnut, or flaherty,i say we tell to the cubs to go pound sand and walk away.
now that we have the “gangsta rapper’s” take on this lets go pound sand and hire someone else like JOSH BYRNES or JED HOYER or RICK HAHN to be our GM untill Theo is released from his toxic working environment in Boston.
I think you’re getting a little over excited there. The Red Sox front office had never been described as “toxic”, it sounds like the clubhouse was the thing in trouble. Also you have to remember that the Boston media has been the one doing all the reporting. They have always been as mean spirited as possible so it’s a very good chance that all of these things are being blown out of proportion.
In point of fact, players have no gone on record saying that the problem was that Francona essentially too soft on them and that’s it. Lester himself basically validated the Francona situation. They were in the clubhouse eating chicken and drinking a beer in the ninth when the Sox were far and away the best team in the AL. There’s nothing to indicate that the problem was anything other than a lack of respect for Francona.
In point of fact, players have no gone on record saying that the problem was that Francona essentially too soft on them and that’s it. Lester himself basically validated the Francona situation. They were in the clubhouse eating chicken and drinking a beer in the ninth when the Sox were far and away the best team in the AL. There’s nothing to indicate that the problem was anything other than a lack of respect for Francona.
So… that time when Theo walked out dressed as a gorilla because his relation with Lucchino reached an all time low, doesn’t count? nor it counts the fact that they don’t talk anymore since Henry gave his support to Lucchino and not to Epstein? Even Henry aknowledged it when he talked about Epstein and how he was ready to call it quits from the Bosox as soon as his contract ran out.
Please do.
I truely wish the cubs would move on to 1 of the 3 on my previous list.
I truely wish the cubs would move on to 1 of the 3 on my previous list.
You still have the same problem, Cubbie, the first 2 are under contract with another organization. So pay the Padres or the Red Sox, you are still gonna pay.
Heres and idea cubbies, maybe you should hire someone who is not the property of another MLB franchise.
I love that Cubs fans thinks they can just toss a contract out the window, beg a team to let them talk to that contracted employee and then turn around and act like tough guys.
when was there begging involved? the reports stated that the cubs requested permission to speak to theo and the red sox allowed it. does the real story not work for your purpose?
That’s a point dude has been missing over the last week. He acts as if someone stole the pooty tang.
That’s a point dude has been missing over the last week. He acts as if someone stole the pooty tang.
Yes let the Cubs pound sand, and Theo will be so toxic no other team will consider him for president/GM and Theo gets 7.5 million from the Sox to do nothing and Theo finds a new job next year and Sox get no compensation.
Jeff…you are missing the point….$7.5M is nothing to the Sox ownership….look at the money they eat on contracts that they have traded away (Reneria, Lugo, ect)…so lets get off this hump and move forward….this is chump change to the Redsox…and if they don’t get compensation that they feel is deserving….they will hold this up. The Cubs need to determine what it is it worth to having their #1 man lead them this year.
Jeff…you are missing the point….$7.5M is nothing to the Sox ownership….look at the money they eat on contracts that they have traded away (Reneria, Lugo, ect)…so lets get off this hump and move forward….this is chump change to the Redsox…and if they don’t get compensation that they feel is deserving….they will hold this up. The Cubs need to determine what it is it worth to having their #1 man lead them this year.
and the Cubs agreement with Theo will be null and void and Chicago will have to compete for his services in the open market.
Yeah, thats a fantastic scenario for the Cubs. No GM for 2012 and then a bidding war with the Dodgers, Orioles, etc. etc. to sign him because you didn’t want to give up 1) a lefty reliever on the last year of his contract, 2) a starting pitcher who will do nothing to help the franchise outside of compensatory draft picks, 3) a host of overrated, unproven prospects.
You guys should of just gave em Sean Marshall and walked away knowing you wouldn’t have resigned him anyways. The worst case scenario is that the Red Sox get two draft picks that cannot help them till after 2015.
I am confused Cubbies, do you want Theo?
Who is to say the Dodgers or Orioles will be bidding for his sevices next year? Who is to say that he WANTS to GM the Orioles anyway?
Who is to say the Dodgers or Orioles will be bidding for his sevices next year? Who is to say that he WANTS to GM the Orioles anyway?
i’ll agree with the confused part.
You do realize Boston paid wrent-a-wreck’s last 3 years (most of it) to play somewhere else, plus got nearly nothing back and dumped Lugo and paid his last 10m for the final year. i doubt a “lousy” 7.5m would hurt Henry and his financial situation as much as it would the Cub’s hold up on any GM right now.
You do realize Boston paid wrent-a-wreck’s last 3 years (most of it) to play somewhere else, plus got nearly nothing back and dumped Lugo and paid his last 10m for the final year. i doubt a “lousy” 7.5m would hurt Henry and his financial situation as much as it would the Cub’s hold up on any GM right now.
This is a great idea…Boston can pay Epstein’s salary for 2012 as well as any additional stuff in his contract to do what exactly? He’s already been replaced so he has no job title. So basically you think Boston’s smartest move is to have a $4 million seat warmer? Not to mention how much credibility the Red Sox front office would lose for treating one of the most respected GMs in baseball that way. Assuming you’re a Boston fan, it would be the equivalent to Henry deciding to take down the Green Monster and replace it with a giant video screen and product endorsements.
That’s BS. I’d be very happy to watch Epstein sit out a year and listen to the Cubs and him cry about how we were unreasonable. Cough up some serious compensation. I personally think its time for Lucchino to just walk out, and let the Cubs whine.
You’d be happy because you’re not the one who’d have to pay someone $3 million to do nothing for a year. Drop the 3 million and SIGN some serious compensation!
The Sox approach the luxury tax threshold every single year, they’re going to sign free agents up to that point with or without the Cubs’ cash. That $3 million is lining Henry’s pocket if he accepts it and as a fan, I will be absolutely disgusted if he jumps for it. Go back to the early reports of the deal when writers were claiming the Sox were looking for cash instead of prospects, I immediately voiced my disgust with that concept and I wouldn’t be alone.
Mark it from an actual fan of the team: more Sox fans will be angry if the Sox accept money rather than actual players for Epstein. The former makes Henry look like a greedy owner, the latter makes him look like a stern negotiator who was unwilling to accept a deal he did not feel improved the team.
In my opinion, if it comes down to improving the team, I don’t think I grant the Cubs permission in the first place. And since I think there a lot of similarities between Cubs fans and Sox fans, you might all be angry, but you’ll still be there next year cheering and yelling as much as any other.
I wonder how the latest drama plays out to perspective free agents and employees? Between the Epstein issue and the comments made about Crawford they are looking like a$$holes.
“$140M? sounds good, but i heard you are sometimes kinda rude to people after making them filthy rich and winning championships with them, so…no thanks”
Ok…maybe $140 mil will consul some people. However, if it’s a matter of $140 give or take $5 to $10 mil, who knows?
I wonder how the latest drama plays out to perspective free agents and employees? Between the Epstein issue and the comments made about Crawford they are looking like a$$holes.
LOL. we’ve eaten contracts nearly 3 times the size of Epstein’s. Pass the margerine. We’ll do it again, no problem. Pay up, welcher.
You’d be happy because you’re not the one who’d have to pay someone $3 million to do nothing for a year. Drop the 3 million and SIGN some serious compensation!
“one of the most respected GMs in baseball”. He was hired when he was 28. He was a nobody then. He owes everything to Red Sox. Tired of hearing how ‘he’s being disrespected, etc.’.
To his credit, I havent heard Theo say a bad thing about his current status. How bout letting the process take its course. Dragging on the process is Red Sox strategy, it only servers to boost their return (they couldve accepted whatever the Cubs 1st offer was). But you run the risk of Cubs walking away. Its a poker game. Let it play out.
a poker game that boston will lose
you are a fool
Thx, great insight.
Having no GM for 2012, a month before Free Agency starts seems worse than a team who won 90+ games, a replacement GM already inked and has won in the past Century.
I guess your definition of “losing” is by Chicago Cubs standards.
Oh, how quickly we forget what it’s like to still have a curse… It was also Boston’s standards up until ’04.
What major free agents are going to be signed by the Cubs this year again? Much, MUCH more important to have the right GM in place by 2013 when the star power is MUCH higher. My guess is that 2012 would be a wash and if anything the plan would be to dump as many bad contracts as possible and try out the young guys in 2012. Not really an issue (free agency).
You win a World Series after how many years and all of the sudden you’re better then everyone else? Please. If I was a Red Sox fan I would tell you to go find another team to cheer for.
We’re not better than “everyone else,” but we are better than the Cubs.
a poker game that boston will lose
you are a fool
I agree that Epstein came out of nowhere, but I think it’s more accurate to say he owes the opportunity to the Red Sox. If the success and everything is all owed to the Red Sox, then why does Epstein even matter and why couldn’t the Red Sox win before that?
Actually, he owes everything to Larry Lucchino. Lucchino hired him as an intern out of Yale while Lucchino ran the Orioles. When Lucchino decided to leave to run the Padres, he offered Theo his first paying job in baseball with the Pads. Theo got his law degree at night in San Diego, while under Larry’s employ. Larry further brought Theo with him when Larry joined Henry’s ownership group to buy the Sox. And now, Larry is supposedly the d*ckhead for demanding compensation for Theo’s bailing on him. After more than a decade of mentoring, and everything that Theo knows about baseball is directly attributable to Lucchino, Larry’s the d*ckhead for seeking compensation. That is so laughable, its outrageous.
Why does it matter how old he was or that he was a “nobody”? He paid his dues and earned the respective level he’s at now? Just because someone gave you a shot that indentures you to them for life?
Its far more than just paying his dues. Theo was mentored up from an intern by Lucchino. Everything, and I mean absolutely everything, the kid knows about baseball is the direct result of mentoring by Lucchino. Sure, he has innate abilities, but Lucchino is the one who recognized it and nutured it. He would not be a GM today if it wasn’t for Larry. Its not indenturing, but there is a payback for walking away having taken advantage of all that nuturing. The guy who plants the tree on his own land, waters it, and feeds it, is the one entitled to the fruit.
Why does it matter how old he was or that he was a “nobody”? He paid his dues and earned the respective level he’s at now? Just because someone gave you a shot that indentures you to them for life?
“one of the most respected GMs in baseball”. He was hired when he was 28. He was a nobody then. He owes everything to Red Sox. Tired of hearing how ‘he’s being disrespected, etc.’.
To his credit, I havent heard Theo say a bad thing about his current status. How bout letting the process take its course. Dragging on the process is Red Sox strategy, it only servers to boost their return (they couldve accepted whatever the Cubs 1st offer was). But you run the risk of Cubs walking away. Its a poker game. Let it play out.
The Sox should just walk the hell away. Other teams get multiple players as compensation for hiring someone from another team–and the Cubs are balking on a couple of minor leaguers who may never see the majors? WALK, Sox. Let Ricketts eat…….
SOX will eat CROW in the long run! They are overboard and it will bite them in the A$% and the Cubs will walk! Dont walk Tom…..RUN!
This makes no sense at all. Period.
I’m guessing it’s connor, or Dave is 13 and has some weird triangle going.
Henry never gave a crap about winning after 2007, he only wanted to fill seats.
Guess what fills the seats?
Having spent plenty of time at Fenway, I believe the answer you’re looking for is “people that weigh less than 180 lbs on average.”
lmao. i’m at 175, but my older brother is legit 375 and i always feel so bad taking him to Sox games when he’s visiting me in the city. i buy him as many beers as i can to help him get through the game with minimal discomfort.
but in response to GM Cherington, though i agree with the point i think you’re making, the Sox have no problem filling the seats and never have.
I have a few friends on the larger side. We tend to go for roof deck SRO.
yeah, standing room is usually our go-to now
I have a few friends on the larger side. We tend to go for roof deck SRO.
lmao. i’m at 175, but my older brother is legit 375 and i always feel so bad taking him to Sox games when he’s visiting me in the city. i buy him as many beers as i can to help him get through the game with minimal discomfort.
but in response to GM Cherington, though i agree with the point i think you’re making, the Sox have no problem filling the seats and never have.
“Well……my son won’t be going to Boston, if I have anything to say about it”.
C.Fielder
That was below the belt.
Nah, I’m just kidding, Prince Fielder has no use for a belt.
(This is now officially the complete MLBTR thread. Pointless sniping, Yankees fans yelling at Red Sox fans, Red Sox fans yelling at Yankees fans, fans of other teams telling them both that they suck and also fat jokes)
That was below the belt.
Nah, I’m just kidding, Prince Fielder has no use for a belt.
(This is now officially the complete MLBTR thread. Pointless sniping, Yankees fans yelling at Red Sox fans, Red Sox fans yelling at Yankees fans, fans of other teams telling them both that they suck and also fat jokes)
Matthew has a point though. Wrigley is a tourist destination, more so than Fenway. The draw of Wrigley has been extremely damaging to our bottom line, which should be winning. If you can turn a profit, there is no real incentive to develop a consistent contender. On the plus side, you do get money to spend on guys. That’s where Hendry failed, he just didn’t have a good sense of advanced scouting and any kind of “modern” baseball thinking. Thusly, he went after Soriano, and traded away DeRosa because we “needed” a left-handed bat, which is the most glaring example of a lack of modern baseball understanding.
I don’t think he didn’t care about winning, I really think he wanted to win badly in Chicago. He just wasn’t experienced enough in those two areas and therefore took too many risks, and that’s why the Cubs are where they are now. I don’t think you need to rely heavily on sabermetrics to be successful in major league baseball, but if you don’t have a strong scouting department, you better rely on something to at least somewhat make up for that. Hendry was oblivious to both of those aspects of the greatest game in the world.
Henry, not Hendry. Great points, just a bit off though
Actually, it’s Hendry, Mr. Cherington.
The comment you were replying to was referring to John Henry, not Jim Hendry.
Got it. I can’t keep track any more. There are too many similarities. People need to use first names… but I stand corrected.
It’s like a damn competition for last place here.
Actually its HENRY, Mr. P. BOOM!
Yeah, you got me. I got all turned around because of the similarities in that original statement.
I beg your pardon, Mr. Cherington.
Actually, it’s Hendry, Mr. Cherington.
Wrigley is tourist destination, more so than Fenway. Its like saying the beaches are nicer in Cali than Florida. You may be right, but only by the smallest margin. Fenway fills whether winners are on the field or not. Ive lived in Midwest (quad cities) and Boston, and I can tell you Boston is much more a baseball town. Midwest much more football and anything college. But in Boston when Sox are winning alot more money made on peripherals (jersies, advertising, etc.), than you’ll find in Chicago. If Cubs were to be winning in August, it would no doubt be a big deal in Chicago. But there would be a decent percent of sports fans waiting on the Bears to start.
You lived in the Quad Cities, dude. That ain’t Chicago. That’s like saying living in Providence, Rhode Island is the same thing as living in Boston.
If you have any sources for anything you just said, I’d love to see them, because it all sounds like ignorant BoSox homerism to me. Lame.
Reread my post. I never said I lived in Chicago.
People in Prov RI have a very good idea of what Boston is about. Their favorite teams are usually Boston. Yeah think most Rhodies have visited Fenway or Foxboro past couple of yrs. And could comment very well on Boston sports scene.
So other than geography lesson, was I wrong. Chicago isnt more about Da Bears, Illini or NW? Please
Have you been in Chicago during baseball season? Or tried to get anywhere on the El during a White Sox or Cubs game? It’s a lot harder then when people are trying to get to the spaceship that crashed and destroyed Soldier Field. Especially when it comes to the Cubs. How many teams do Cubs fans consider rivals? All of them. I don’t think Chicago is any more football-crazy than most places. Maybe you’re confusing it with Wisconsin and the Packers and Badgers…
Nope. Im equating it to trying to get a baseball conversation with anyone in Moline. It would always flip to football or college basketball right after the long yawn. You wont have that problem anywhere in New England. Im talking bout everyone wearing college and bears apparel (which by the way was the point i was originally making). You have to be in downtown chicago to see cubs or white sox apparel. Soon as you get out of the city, its all football. Go up to Maine and talk baseball, you wont shut them up.
By the way, what does a poor subway system have to do with how popular a team is?
I see your point about New England, and I suppose the reference to the El really just supports your argument that the Baseball is primarily important only out to the near suburbs.
Ty m8. Not dissing Chicago sports. They got awesome sports. But theres so much of it. Theres no college sports in NE (really wish there was). One thing I took back with me was party atmosphere on Saturdays in the fall. Also Illini had some awesome Basketball teams during the years I was there. To this day I like college basketball better than pros because of it.
Chicago is more about Da Bears than any other team. Don’t listen to people that try to dispute it. I honestly think the Bulls are bigger than our baseball teams too, but that might have something to do with D-Rose and the fact that our baseball teams aren’t very good right now.
I think Bears bigger than Pats (if they werent winning so much)
Illini and Northwestern way bigger than Boston College and ______ (whatever other boston area college team)
Bulls bigger than Celtics
So does this mean that Chicago bigger sports fans in every sport. Please get off your high horse.
Hehe. I think the Bears are bigger in Chicago than the Pats are in Boston, with the Red Sox being bigger in Boston than the Cubs are in Chicago. If that makes sense. I’m not going to get in to which fan base is better though.
College football is not big in Chicago though, I think hockey beats college ball. There are really no good college teams around, and it’s a major city with all 4 major sports teams. I’d say it’s about even when it comes to Boston and Chicago college interest.
Yeah, it seems all you guys care about is proving how big your fanbase is.
Just wondering, is there a force field around Chicago. Cause you guys think a fanbase only runs as far as the transit system. You can drive for 5hrs in NE, and they still wanna talk Red Sox. (and the population is alot thicker around here). Drive 5hrs into Iowa and see if they wanna talk baseball.
Don’t lump everybody together. There are plenty of obnoxious Red Sox fans who think that the entire baseball landscape exists between NYC and Boston.
Bears, Cubs and Bulls have a strong national following. If you had gone to the Cubs-Red Sox in May this year, you would have seen that they have just as big of a reach as the “Red Sox Nation.” But yes, regionally, I think the Red Sox draw stronger interest than the Cubs. But a very successful decade will do that.
This started with someone claiming that the cubs can fill seats even without a winning team. Implying Sox cant. That is completely off mark. There have been lots of bad teams here over the years. But with such a far reaching fan base (and these fans will travel on a regular basis from VT or ME, just ask Steven King). The stands have always been full here.
Then I got blasted for having the nerve to say I might have a little insight living in Quad Cities for a while, and they could care less about baseball in general. That Red Sox Nation (name i hate) reaches further distances on a fan level (people who sit on the porch in the evening listening to a baseball game on a radio, or traveling 100 miles to see their team not just to visit a stadium with pretty ivory walls). And not some clown in California who buys a Cubs or Red Sox cap cause he thinks its cool.
Fanbase doesnt stop 30 miles from a town, just because it helps make an argument.
And “lump everybody”? whered that come from. Nice changeup.
I’m not disagreeing with you. Thus, don’t lump everyone together. I was simply agreeing with you by saying that Chicago cares more about football than baseball.
What I said earlier is that because the Cubs fan base is NOT quite as good as the Red Sox right now, our seats are filled more by tourists currently. Hardly a compliment to the Cubs or a slight to the Red Sox.
Take it easy, buddy.
Watch any Cubs away game and pay attention to how many Cubs caps, shirts, jerseys, etc are in the crowd. Cubs fans are everywhere.
oh that settles it then, theres never any red sox fans at their away games. ridiculous
I understand your point about the BoSox & New England vs. the Cubs & the midwest. You are comparing apples to oranges. New England has one team-the Red Sox. The Midwest has the Cubs, White Sox, Brewers, Tigers, Twins, Cardinals, Reds and Royals. With no disrespect intended, by far the most followed frachises in the midwest are the Cubs and Cardinals. In my home state of Illinois, we have three teams that are followed religiously: the Cubs & W. Sox (in the north) & as you travel south Cub nation slowly fades in to Cardinal nation.
I am not trying to run New England down, but the BoSox have cornered the market there. The Cubs have A LOT more competition in the region. So to say New England is more of a baseball place than the midwest because there are more BoSox stuff, doesn’t really paint the whole picture.
When there is a winning product, baseball is big. But because it doesn’t happen with regularity, who knows what would happen.
I was specifically responding to you saying:
“Yeah, it seems all you guys care about is proving how big your fanbase is. Just wondering, is there a force field around Chicago. Cause you guys think a fanbase only runs as far as the transit system. You can drive for 5hrs in NE, and they still wanna talk Red Sox.”
I wasn’t saying the Red Sox only have fans in Boston, just that there is obvious proof that the Cubs don’t only have fans in Chiago.
California has better beaches, by far.
Anyway, I agree that both are a big tourist draw. But from personal experience of numerous games at Wrigley and just 4-5 games at Fenway Park, I still consider the Sox fans better baseball people. Also, Red Sox are consistent winners despite all the belly aching by some fans. It’s nice to be relevant in September. That clearly leads to a stronger interest, like you said. Also, the biggest reason I say that Wrigley is a bigger non-baseball draw is that Chicago is a split baseball city with the White Sox. Wrigley still takes in over 3 million people every year despite a miserable time since 2008.
It’s still hard to say with the costs being what they are. Not every true Cubs/Red Sox fan makes enough money for season tickets or even regular tickets.
Chicago also has something Boston does not currently have, a second MLB team. That is important to note. Fans of the Cubs & the White Sox get along together as well as fans of the Red Sox & Yankees. When the Cubs are winning, there is NOTHING like it (trust me, as a die hard Cubfan, we’re not used to winning. So when it happens, we go all in!-Sorry W. Sox for “appropriating” your seasons marketing campaign phrase.)
As a Cubfan from the southside of Chicago, I’ve noticed that there only two things that please White Sox fans, winning and (possibly more important) trashing the Cubs.
With all due respect to the BoSox fans, I’ve heard great things about you. We are somewhat like kindred spirits-in a Baseball perspective, that is. So I can not compare what its like in Boston when their Sox are winning. But I do know for sure that the Cubs do get a large amount of press, excitement, and fan exuberance when they are winning.
Cubs and W. Sox fans don’t so much say that *their* team is number 1, as they BOTH try to run down each others team.
People from the outside (Quad Cities) may not see that as being a baseball town, but we do. It may be dysfunctional, but no one ever said being a baseball fan was rational. If they did, there would be NO WAY IN H**L the Cubs would ever come close to the 3 million mark in attendance every year!
Wrigley is tourist destination, more so than Fenway. Its like saying the beaches are nicer in Cali than Florida. You may be right, but only by the smallest margin. Fenway fills whether winners are on the field or not. Ive lived in Midwest (quad cities) and Boston, and I can tell you Boston is much more a baseball town. Midwest much more football and anything college. But in Boston when Sox are winning alot more money made on peripherals (jersies, advertising, etc.), than you’ll find in Chicago. If Cubs were to be winning in August, it would no doubt be a big deal in Chicago. But there would be a decent percent of sports fans waiting on the Bears to start.
Agree, he wanted Liverpool and the only way to get that was to make huge $$$ off the Sox.
You’re kidding right? Henry paid less than $500 million for Liverpool. He spent nearly $700 million to buy the Red Sox. So I’m sure when he was spending that money on the Red Sox he was thinking, if I can only make part of that money back, I’ll be able to buy Liverpool, which was really my goal all along.
Oh, part two: And the Cubs want some of Theo’s staff too? What’s Ricketts smoking?
It’s common practice.
Do you know how Theo came to the Red Sox in the first place?
1
Beamed down by spaceship I believe.
Oh, the irony. Apparently Lucchino has blacked out on that period of his life.
It’s not about the Cubs wanting some of the Red Sox staff, it’s about Epstein wanting to take trusted and familiar members of his staff with him.
Who knows, besides the principals involved, what exactly is going on. I just hope they come to some resolution soon. Enough with this BS already.
Isn’t this in fact non-news?
I guess if you only read the headline and had no context you might think that.
Mea Culpa
I love how passive-aggressive Tim gets in these comments.
Tim can snark with the best of them
Tim’s just as stressed as the rest of us Cub fans. Not a good sign when you’re a week and a half from the beginning of the offseason and your team still has no GM.
PS Thanks Tim for running an awesome site!
I agree with the Tim part. Very awesome site.
This is just dragging on too long. And I’m not so quick to blame only the Sox for this. It’s been said earlier in the week, and I think it still holds true, the Cubs only want to give up cash at this point, but they also want some of Theo’s staff. The Sox most likely want a promising prospect as well as a “small amount” of cash to round out the deal. Both sides can’t find a medium, really, because there isn’t one and hence why this has gone on for so damn long.
I also think the Garza thing is being over blown, I’m sure the Sox half-heartedly mentioned Garza, the Cubs, of course, declined, and they moved on. I don’t think Henry & Co. pushed real hard for Garza by any means.
This thing is just going on for way too long, and it’s getting pretty annoying at this point.
“McAdam writes that the issue of Epstein taking Red Sox employees with him is not an issue, with a mutual understanding in place that he will not raid Boston’s baseball operations department. ”
By far the most important part of this article.
He’s taking away the red sox leverage for compensation.
Bingo
Agreed. And again, it’s Epstein taking staff with him, not the Cubs picking and choosing new employees.
If there is no precedent, I do not understand why there has to be any compensation at all. If Epstein is leaving his contract early and has a penalty (fine) to pay to Boston, then so be it. Is there something in a contract or agreement that says Chicago must literally trade a player to Boston? I dont understand why the Chicago Cubs have to negotiate anything with Boston. Theo is leaving Boston and thus doesnt work for them anymore; who cares about extra compensation??
You’re in contempt, sir. We have no use for rational and facts on this forum.
I think it’s more like Boston letting Theo out of his contract a year early rather than Theo leaving a year early. There’s a difference. Technically Theo works for Boston until 1) they void the contract, which they would do if they work out an agreement or 2) the contract runs it’s course, which would be this time next year.
Boston can basically dictate what Theo does in 2012, whether it be in a baseball capacity or watching Tivo on his couch at home.
“Theo is leaving Boston and thus doesnt work for them anymore; who cares about extra compensation?? ”
Because he DOES work for them still. He’s under contract. The Sox have no reason to let him go for nothing other than just to do the Cubs a favor and I don’t see how that benefits them at all. Considering the Sox have a replacement GM in place already and this has basically become something we can effectively sit on as long as we want, it’s the Sox’s responsibility to the fanbase to get as much as they feel they can get out of Ricketts.
Theo signed a contract, and the Red Sox are asking for something in return for releasing from that contract. If the Red Sox don’t get something, they don’t have to release him from his contract. It’s that simple.
Because he’s under contract with the Sox until the end of 2012. He can’t work for anyone else unless the club releases him. And yes, there is precedent for serious compensation. When the Sox tried to score Billy Beane from Oakland, before Theo got the job, the A’s demanded Kevin Youkilis, and Boston agreed to trade him. The deal fell through because Beane changed his mind, but still, that was what would have happened had it gone through. This is not to mention the more numerous manager transactions where players/prospects are received in return.
Name 1 time ever that the GM was traded and the deal was completed.
Now name 1 time that a GM was not allowed to leave his team for a promotion with another team other than this occasion.
It is a unspoken unwritten agreement to allow personnel to leave 1 team to persue a promotion with another team within MLB.
Selig will surely soon be telling boston that after the world series.
And Boston will surely be telling Selig that maybe this “unwritten rule” should be written down if he’d like to do something about it.
From what I understand, that unspoken agreement allows personnel to pursue a *promotion*, but not a lateral move. So going from GM of the Red Sox to GM of the Cubs, Boston wants compensation. However, they wouldn’t require compensation if Theo got a higher job title, right?
So, a quick and preferable solution to this problem would be the Cubs firing Crane Kenney (which I’d very much like, personally), and installing Theo as Team President. Theo could then hire Josh Byrnes or anybody else he wants to be GM, and Boston can go suck an egg and hire Tony Reagins, after which Theo can convince him to give us Middlebrooks for Soriano.
Name 1 time ever that the GM was traded and the deal was completed.
Now name 1 time that a GM was not allowed to leave his team for a promotion with another team other than this occasion.
It is a unspoken unwritten agreement to allow personnel to leave 1 team to persue a promotion with another team within MLB.
Selig will surely soon be telling boston that after the world series.
That’s like dating a girl after she cheats on her boyfriend with you.
The word is that Theo was going to hire Josh Byrnes. The Cubs should follow that plan. If they can’t agree with Boston, just move on with the plan. Hire Byrnes as GM and then when Theo is free next year bring him in as President of baseball operations. They don’t have to give up anything. During this year, Byrnes and Ricketts can consult with Theo on the moves they are making, since Boston has told Chennington he will be their next GM. It won’t be tampering if they don’t talk about Boston players. Just baseball collegues talking baseball.
I said that yesterday.
And
Its still true today.
That is exactly what the cubs should do for the next 12 months.
I said that time is cyclical yesterday.
It’s still true today.
See what I did there?
“During this year, Byrnes and Ricketts can consult with Theo on the moves they are making”
No, they can’t. That’s strictly breach of contract. If it came out that Epstein was advising another team on personnel moves, the Sox would have grounds to sue the everliving heck out of him.
Except in such a suit they would have to PROVE that Theo was advising the Cubs on moves. Good luck with that.
Except that’s not true. Civil court and criminal court are two entirely different arenas. All civil court requires is that you convince the judge of your case and that’s something that wouldn’t be too hard to prove in that regard.
Just look at OJ Simpson. He was acquitted in criminal court because they couldn’t prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was guilty, but he lost millions in civil court because it was determined there was plenty of evidence to find against him in a civil case.
Epstein doesn’t have the MLBPA to back him up like a player would in a situation like this, he’s on his own. You can bet that the Sox would have the resources to tear him apart on something like that. Epstein’s not stupid enough to take that kind of risk.
I don’t think using OJ is a good example. He didn’t lose in criminal court because it wasn’t proven.
I don’t think using OJ is a good example. He didn’t lose in criminal court because it wasn’t proven.
In a civil case they would have to prove there is tampering, they still need evidence. Good luck with that, ever heard of a burner phone?
Epstein’s a baseball executive not a cop. I think you overestimate how far Epstein is willing to go to screw the Sox.
In a civil case they would have to prove there is tampering, they still need evidence. Good luck with that, ever heard of a burner phone?
How did we get to OJ? What’s happening here?
Showcasing the difference between burden of proof in a criminal case versus burden of proof in a civil case.
In a criminal case, burden of proof falls on the hands of the prosecution to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the defendant was guilty of the charge. You have to prove to the jury that there is no possible way that the defendant could not be guilty.
In a civil case, the burden of proof is not nearly as strict since we’re talking money instead of freedom being on the line. In a civil case, you just have to convince the judge that the defendant is guilty of the accusation.
A criminal case is generally won on the letter of the law. If there is insufficient proof, an incompetent defense attorney can still win the case because the prosecution does not have enough of a case. A civil case is almost always decided by the quality of litigation. It’ll pretty much always come down to who has the better lawyers and John Henry can certainly afford better lawyers than Epstein.
Given, it’ll certainly never come to this, but people seem to be overestimating how hard it is to win a civil case when you’ve got enough money for a good lawyer.
Oh…I thought we were talking about baseball.
The thing that got OJ off was the fact that cops screwed up with the evidence. (I had evidence that OJ did it but I forgot to list it and I took it home. Once I got home I realized I forgot to hand it over with all the rest of the evidence so I tried to do so after taking it home thus tampering with the evidence thus making it null and void.)
Actually, it would be tampering, and I hope they do so, because that would be a sure way that we would end up with Brett Jackson as compensation.
You can’t keep your personnel from talking with their colleagues at other organizations unless they had that written in his contract — the odds of which are essentially zero.
I suggest you pick up a copy of: “The Tampering Prohibition and Agreements Between American and Foreign Sports Leagues,” 32 Columbia Journal of Law and the Arts 271-331 (2009). There, you will find that the rules of MLB prohibit any team from contacting the contracted employee of any other team, prior to the expiration of the employee’s contract, without the express written permission of the contracting employer.
So the answer to your premise is, you’re incorrect. League rules bar such contact automatically, and it does not have to be written into Theo’s contract.
Once the Sox withdraw permission, the Cubs would be tampering to be in contact with Theo in any way whatsoever, in furtherance of future employment.
The Tampering Rule provides that the League will award the contracting employer, whose employee has been tampered with, just compensation from the players and prospects then within the violating tamperer’s organization. That means the League will award the Sox the rights to Brett Jackson, or possibly Reed Johnson, or possibly Sean Marshall, in the event the Cubs are caught tampering with Theo while under contract to the Sox. Sound palatable to you?
Actually, it would be tampering, and I hope they do so, because that would be a sure way that we would end up with Brett Jackson as compensation.
I doubt the last part would happen. If Boston can’t come to agreement and hold on to Theo for 2012, I seriously doubt he will be allowed to consult another team on their moves, particularly the Cubs.
How could you stop him?
You’re an investment trader, aren’t you?
It might be Raj himself.
That or a tomato broker.
You’re an investment trader, aren’t you?
I like this plan.
Great point. Not many people have considered how Theo can express his opinion and make unofficial suggestions to the acting Cubs G.M. who’s keeping the seat warm for a year.
Someone said on an earlier post about this. As long as they agree not to take anyone else from the Sox staff, id be quite happy to let him go without a prospect or player at all.
Need to move on. Got a lot of work to do this winter, and a lot of things to figure out.
We already have a replacement. What exactly is the problem with drawing it out?
In fact, the best thing the Sox can do is draw this out. They already have structure in place to move forward and the Cubs don’t, so the longer this is drawn out the more desperate the Cubs will get.
I am so tired of the bosox overplaying their hand on this.
I’m more tired that the Cubs think they can just take a successful GM a year early for bargain basement pricing.
You seem to have forgotten that Epstein is choosing to go. What team wouldn’t want him? But the fact that Epstein WANTS to go a year early should say a lot more. It’s not like Ricketts showed up at Fenway and said, “give us Epstein or we start marching troops into South Boston.”
But have you forgotten that Theo is still under contract with Boston?
There is a difference between Theo leaving on his own and Chicago requesting Boston let him out of the contract a year early. You want something, you give something.
I agree with you there. But my question is still how hard do you push AFTER you find out that your GM wants to leave? The Cubs aren’t “taking” Epstein. All they did was ask Boston permission to find out if Epstein was interested. Once Boston agreed, the decision was up to Theo. In a weird sense, I guess it almost seems like the compensation should be connected to the team asking permission to talk to an employee still under contract as opposed to if the employee decides to leave.
I guess I picture a gift basket and a card saying, “Thanks for everything” after all is said and done. But to start off, it’s like, “What would it take for us to be allowed to ask your GM if he would rather come work for us?” I’d have all of this figured out ahead of time, just in case the guy said yes…avoid all of this nonsense.
I agree with that last part, they should have had a better understanding of WHAT would be expected just by having the conversation.
Funny how agreeing ahead of time was never necessary until the Red Sox and Lucchino were involved…
I think it’s really just because it’s Red Sox and Cubs fans that are involved.
But have you forgotten that Theo is still under contract with Boston?
There is a difference between Theo leaving on his own and Chicago requesting Boston let him out of the contract a year early. You want something, you give something.
I say draw it out straight through the winter meetings if you have to. Let Cherrington start interviewing managerial candidates as soon as he’s allowed to and let the Cubs figure out Plan B. If the Cubs aren’t prepared to give up anything of value, they can find someone else to run their team.
If I had the slightest inkling this would interfere with baseball operations in the slightest, I’d change my tune, but it’s not. We have a replacement. We can move on with our lives if the Cubs back off. If we back off, the Cubs have to basically start over. Good luck to you.
If the Cubs are smart, not much action will happen this offseason and next year anyhow. The team is years away from contention, so minor league player development and next year’s draft are the most important. Being that the Cubs already have their minor league posts set for years to come, what that says to me is the Cubs should be just fine with an interim GM for a year.
So yeah, the Cubs should be able to easily move on to Plan B this year, whether that is hiring the next best GM alternative to Theo or simply running in place with an interim GM.
On the flipside, if the Sox aren’t happy with what the Cubs are offering for compensation, sure they too should also move on and pay Theo $8M to hang out for a year on the sidelines.
Considering how much of a disaster the Cubs’ farm system has been for a while, I have to imagine that first order of business for their new GM will be gutting their system top to bottom in regards to non-players. Sure, that can technically wait a year, but you’d be surprised how much can actually be accomplished in a year from getting new personnel and policies in place. Hendry was against advanced metrics and he would’ve hried staff according to that philosophy. Do you really think the Cubs will want to keep those guys around?
Anyone who answers with “RBI and Wins” as their top priorities when scouting for talent will probably be shown the door.
Fleita (Farm Director) and Wilken (Scouting Director) are most likely not going anywhere. Fleita just got an extension and Wilken is highly regarded.
The Cubs upper part of their minor leagues are indeed a mess. That is inarugeable. However, their lower levels have a lot of promise, and since Wilken is still relatively new to the team, he still has a leash.
The thought was that, if hired, Theo would reshuffle the current roles and beef up the department with guys of his own liking. Sort of a mix and match.
Either way, I think the Cubs organization would do just fine for one more year with what’s in place. Last year’s draft is proof of that.
I think it could have a huge effect on baseball operations for the Red Sox. If they decide to drag this out further and further, it’s going to start affecting the way both players and staff view the prospect of working in Boston. So the Red Sox hold onto Epstein for 2012 and paid him to do nothing? I love the Cubs, but I have just as much respect for Boston. I wouldn’t want to go work for the guy who decided to force Theo Epstein to sit in an office chair for an entire year over Trey McNutt. Over Trey McNutt…I can keep repeating this, but it’s just going to start sounding increasingly ridiculous.
I would say that giving all of Baseballdom that impression would seriously hinder baseball operations. Unless of course, you think it’s a good idea for the Red Sox to be around for another 3-4 years after a season of only being able to sign players desperate enough for a contract to take the risk. The good news will be that they’ll still have Lackey, Crawford, Gonzalez, Pedroia and Buchholz…That’s enough to build a team around, right?
“I wouldn’t want to go work for the guy who decided to force Theo Epstein to sit in an office chair for an entire year over Trey McNutt. Over Trey McNutt…I can keep repeating this, but it’s just going to start sounding increasingly ridiculous.”
By this same exact token, you cannot in any logical sense make this statement without likewise implying you would not want to work for someone who is not willing to give up Trey McNutt. Give up Trey McNutt. You seem to be implying that McNutt isn’t all that valuable, and if that’s the case, fork him over and let’s all move on. If you’re implying Epstein isn’t worth giving up a guy like McNutt for, then why are you trying so hard to get him in your front office?
This is negotiation 101. If your negotiating partner hasn’t walked away from the table after a week’s worth of negotiations, it’s obvious that what you have is worth something to them. If the Cubs weren’t willing to part with something after being worn down, they’d have realized by now the Sox are unlikely to move on and moved on to plan B. With the Sox having someone in place already, they’re free to drag this out until the Cubs either cave or walk away while continuing to operate business as usual. Any agent worth his salt will recognize this as a negotiating tactic, meaning this is highly unlikely to affect our ability to bring in free agents.
The Sox have two choices here: hold out for what they want and come off as people who won’t settle for less than what they want. In this situation they risk paying Epstein to basically do nothing.
OR, the Sox can give the Cubs Epstein for basically nothing of value to the organization. In this situation, they lose the opportunity cost associated with extracting something of value from their GM leaving early.
Option A is high risk, high reward. Option B is high risk, low reward. If both situations have a 50/50 chance of you going home with nothing to show for it, wouldn’t you go with the option with a high potential for reward?
Oh course not. I’d tell McNutt to get a suitcase ready. I’ll take the risk of him turning into something great down the road if it means the organization has someone like Epstein as GM for the next four years. I could come up with a whole list of reasons why the Cubs would hesitate, but I’m sure that all of us, along with the media, are making this whole situation appear a lot more contentious than it is in reality.
Okay, I suppose we agree on this, then.
It’s basically a question of value. The Sox are placing a value on what they feel one less year of Epstein than they’ve agreed to is. The Cubs have placed a value on what having Epstein now over another GM candidate/waiting another year go get him and risking someone else making him an offer is worth to them.
Right now, we’re waiting for them to find that middle ground and see who balks. The alleged value for the Cubs is cash at, the alleged value for the Red Sox is McNutt (And possibly more).
I can’t fault the Cubs for offering only cash, but likewise people can’t fault the Sox for demanding something they have a use for. Someone’s going to have to give and I personally feel the Sox have at least a tad more leverage. If it falls through, they spend $8 million that was already accounted for anyway and that’s the end of it. Never underestimate the position of someone with nothing left to lose.
Yeah, I just get hung up on the fact that the “value” in question is almost mythical. It’s all a risk…
This is the thing people are getting caught up on on both sides in a riduclous manner. Value is subjective. Do I think Epstein’s worth Garza? God no, that would be idiotic (Though yeah, I’d ask just to guage how dopey Ricketts is, even determing the point where he stops laughing is valuable intel in a negotiation). Do I think he’s worth McNutt? Quite possibly, yes. People are acting like the two sides aren’t going to start off on the furthest end of each argument as possible. The BIGGEST problem here that’s any different from any other situation is that it leaked very early in the process. People don’t seem to realize that deals like this don’t generally get resolved in a day or two.
The biggest problem is how barren the Cubs’ system is after the Garza trade. The Cubs have about two or three prospects worth taking above the single A level. I can understand that they don’t want to cripple themselves, but at the same time, we need to get something useful to save some face here.
From a PR standpoint, I think the Sox are better off getting nothing than getting something useless.
And I think that’s an important part of the situation. Looking back over the past 10 years or so especially, the Cubs’ “top prospects” have had a pretty low success rate (except for that Pie guy that everyone was drooling to see in the majors). The Cubs won’t let go of the few that they are really high on and the Red Sox could very well be wasting their time trying to develop anyone else. But they’ve got to figure it all out somehow.
My basic thought on the matter is that while I can see the Cubs’ stance on not wanting to destroy their farm, there’s a certain level of minimum value that should be associated with a GM like Epstein. The fact that there is very little middle ground in the Cubs’ farm system between their scrubs and their top guys isn’t something that’s the Red Sox’ fault or problem. Epstein is certainly worth more than a couple scrub prospects. No matter how many scrub prospects you glue together, they’re all still scrub prospects (Though I would enjoy the hilarity of what is essentially a Katamari-style ball full of scrub prospects). If the only two options are an overpay or an underpay, nobody in their right mind is going to accept an underpay for a product they have complete control over.
And in that light, I definitely think you let McNutt go. Wilken and Fleita have just begun making any progress with the farm system so that rebuilding is still necessary anyways.
why dont you call each other
There are two kinds of people who can’t get through the day without making, at minimum, three gay jokes: mouth breathers and dudes so far in the closet they’re finding Christmas presents from the 1980’s.
Which sample group do you fall under?
Does that fall under the category of gay joke?
Y’know, the thought crossed my mind. Fortunately, that was only my first one today.
“I wouldn’t want to go work for the guy who decided to force Theo Epstein to sit in an office chair for an entire year over Trey McNutt. Over Trey McNutt…I can keep repeating this, but it’s just going to start sounding increasingly ridiculous.”
By this same exact token, you cannot in any logical sense make this statement without likewise implying you would not want to work for someone who is not willing to give up Trey McNutt. Give up Trey McNutt. You seem to be implying that McNutt isn’t all that valuable, and if that’s the case, fork him over and let’s all move on. If you’re implying Epstein isn’t worth giving up a guy like McNutt for, then why are you trying so hard to get him in your front office?
This is negotiation 101. If your negotiating partner hasn’t walked away from the table after a week’s worth of negotiations, it’s obvious that what you have is worth something to them. If the Cubs weren’t willing to part with something after being worn down, they’d have realized by now the Sox are unlikely to move on and moved on to plan B. With the Sox having someone in place already, they’re free to drag this out until the Cubs either cave or walk away while continuing to operate business as usual. Any agent worth his salt will recognize this as a negotiating tactic, meaning this is highly unlikely to affect our ability to bring in free agents.
The Sox have two choices here: hold out for what they want and come off as people who won’t settle for less than what they want. In this situation they risk paying Epstein to basically do nothing.
OR, the Sox can give the Cubs Epstein for basically nothing of value to the organization. In this situation, they lose the opportunity cost associated with extracting something of value from their GM leaving early.
Option A is high risk, high reward. Option B is high risk, low reward. If both situations have a 50/50 chance of you going home with nothing to show for it, wouldn’t you go with the option with a high potential for reward?
“Over Trey McNutt…I can keep repeating this, but it’s just going to start sounding increasingly ridiculous.”
My question is why isn’t it ridiculous that the Cubs are refusing to simply give up TREY MCNUTT for the GM of their dreams? It’s only ridiculous that Boston is insisting on him, not that the Cubs won’t give him up? As you imply, it’s not like McNutt is that dominating. He’s not even the best prospect in the CUBS system. The CUBS. So why won’t they give him up? That’s clearly what Boston is thinking, and I applaud them for sticking to their guns so far. The Cubs will hopefully realize soon that they’d rather just end this and get Epstein to work than continue to negotiate over TREY MCNuTT.
Take Vitters, he doesnt walk at all
who the heck would want to sign in boston after this?
People who like money?
Alternatively, people who like chowder and lobster, probably.
People that like to win?
If coming in 3rd twice is considered winning
2nd highest payroll in baseball and 2nd straight year sitting at home in October.
That’s not winning.
2 WS rings and multiple playoff appearances in the past decade IS winning….only a few teams have a comparable resume….
That’s right. So why would Boston hold back the GM that made that happen. Does anybody have an example of a franchise not allowing their GM to leave to become President of Baseball Operations of another team?
2 WS rings and multiple playoff appearances in the past decade IS winning….only a few teams have a comparable resume….
oops double post
oops double post
Still one of the best offenses in baseball, and only a few pitchers away from having a solid pitching staff as well. Sounds like a pretty good team to me. Don’t get excited here; it’s not like the Red Sox suddenly became the Mets.
Kinda sounds like the Mets post-2007, actually.
The Mets had the best offense in baseball post-2007? Actually they did have anything close to that, so…
The 2007 Mets had about the seventh or eight best offense in the MLB in 2007 and they were over .50 points in OPS back of the leader (They were much closer to the middle of the pack than the top teams, statistically). The Red Sox had the absolute best offense in the MLB this season. The Sox really aren’t far off from being a contender.
For all the Yankees fans crowing about how the Yankees were “essentially the same team” going from 2010 to 2011, despite losing their number two starter, the Sox are essentially the same team going into next season, except they’ll probably be giving away Lackey to whoever wants him at league minimum (Which is effectively addition by subtraction). If they can add a pitcher and get Beckett and Lester to not collapse in the final month (And that’s an important note, one more win from each of them and the Sox are in the postseason), they’ll be fine.
The 2007 Mets had about the seventh or eight best offense in the MLB in 2007 and they were over .50 points in OPS back of the leader (They were much closer to the middle of the pack than the top teams, statistically). The Red Sox had the absolute best offense in the MLB this season. The Sox really aren’t far off from being a contender.
For all the Yankees fans crowing about how the Yankees were “essentially the same team” going from 2010 to 2011, despite losing their number two starter, the Sox are essentially the same team going into next season, except they’ll probably be giving away Lackey to whoever wants him at league minimum (Which is effectively addition by subtraction). If they can add a pitcher and get Beckett and Lester to not collapse in the final month (And that’s an important note, one more win from each of them and the Sox are in the postseason), they’ll be fine.
one of the best offensive teams in the history of the game…which Theo helped put together..Its not an easy job to walk away from..ppl saying that Theo hates the organization and that he wants out at all costs are mistaken.
2nd highest payroll in baseball and 2nd straight year sitting at home in October.
That’s not winning.
Players who like to be paid well, players who enjoy playing for passionate, knowledgeable fans, and players who want the challenge of playing in baseball’s toughest division with the chance of going to the playoffs just about every year.
the only downside i can see when it comes to playing in Boston is the media attention and the pressure to perform every single night..Not as bad as NY but its still crazy. I have no doubt Crawford felt tons of pressure to perform..I think he will bounce back next year as he becomes more comfortable. I mean the guy comes from Tampa where they can;t even fill half their seats to Boston where every game is a sellout and the media stalks you like paparazzi..Crawford seems like a nice guy..very humble..now if we end up losing out on resigning Ells bc of Carl’s contract…then I’ll be pissed.
Ricketts has them in a corner and should play hard ball. They named their GM…they either get what we want them to get or you move on and wait one year and get him for nothing. There’s a reason he wants to come to the Cubs and he will wait to do so. Boston looks like asshats for getting nothing and letting Theo rot in their offices for another year. Asking for anyone significant is just to play hardball. They offered cash…take the cash and run while you can.
And Red Sox fans…you’re speaking out of both sides of your mouths. You say he’s overrated…you won’t miss him…oh, but we should get two top prospects for him because he’s a significant GM. Which is it?
NOBODY puts the Red Sox in a corner…
and suddenly a flash back to the movie dirty dancing comes back
nobody puts BABY in a corner
well luchino and henry puts the bosox in a corner
and if epstein stays and the sox win 110 games and the world series next year? what makes you so sure the cubs would get him next year? remember epstein is a boston native and grew up rooting for the sox. its not as if he hates the organization.
What makes me so sure. Two things. They’ve already named a replacement GM. First and foremost.
Second, they’re relationship is beyond repair and if you aren’t aware of that, you haven’t been paying attention.
This isn’t the first time he’s “left” the organization and been replaced. It also isn’t the first time his relationship with the owners was said to be “beyond repair.”
Heck, it’s not even the first time Cherrington’s been the one replacing him.
I have been paying attention..are you some sort of insider? how do you know anything about the current relationship between epstien and the sox ownership? all you know is what is reported by the media and ive heard nothing about any bad blood between Theo and ownership..yea he wanted a little more power to make decisions but thats about it. As far as I know they havent officially named anyone as Theo’s replacement…yes the obvious choice is Ben but have the Sox actually come out and made that official?
I’ll bet he all but hates them now.
I hope he doesn’t curse them when he’s finally allowed to head to Chicago.
he should be praising the sox..they made him GM at only 28 years old…for his hometown team…and gave him all the cash in the world to play with. if he hates anyone it should be the Boston media.
Epstein will never make a BoSox decision ever again.
You think Henry is going to let him make trades our have input on the draft?
If he is retained as G.M. , contractually he still has G.M. authority.
If the Red Sox strip him of his job duties, they are now the ones in breech of contract.
Agreed! This could make Cherington’s job the next few years pretty difficult if the Red Sox decide to keep this up much longer…no one will want to deal with them.
Welcome to the professional world where people play hardball. Anyone who writes off the Red Sox because of something like this is basically coming out and saying “I don’t really like money.”
Welcome to the professional world where people play hardball. Anyone who writes off the Red Sox because of something like this is basically coming out and saying “I don’t really like money.”
But the argument can be made the other way too…
The Cubs want to hire someone away, and despite precedence already being set (at two prospects), they think cash should be the only thing involved. It’s not the way it works
You have to think that Selig may be getting involved in this soon. They want the attention on the WS and not on haggling between the Cubs and Red Sox. At some point I would think he’s going to intervene and tell them to get it done before he dictates the terms for them.
Except he has absolutely no power in this. This is a team personnel decision. If Selig can’t oust a known incompetent who was spending team funds on his divorce, I sincerely doubt he’s going to get anything done here.
Selig has no power….riiiiiiight. MLB dictates the rules, Selig can pull a “best interest of baseball” move and order them to get it done or he will do it for them. Your words of the day are: anti-trust exemption.
I cant believe that I am going to say this but Obsessions is right on this 1 subject.
Selig has no authority to cram a personnel decisions down either teams throat.
But I wish it was resolved soon and fairly.
Federal Baseball Club v. National League, Toolson v. New York Yankees, and Flood v. Kuhn, go look them up, they are all Supreme Court Cases that affirm the commissioner’s broad use of power to determine matters using the reserve clause aka “best interest in baseball” clause.
You can also go look up Charlie Finley and Vida Blue where the commissioner voided out an otherwise legal deal using his powers. You can look at Pete Rose where the commissioner banned a player legally entitled to participate in baseball from participating in baseball.
Finally, if all THAT doesn’t work for you then you can look to last May when he told the now AL Champion Texas Rangers’ previous owners they had to allow the sale to a group headed up by Nolan Ryan. If you think he will use his powers to force a $575m sale of a ball club and won’t for a stupid GM deal that is grabbing headlines away from the World Series I think you are mistaken.
None of those cases involve a contracted employee trying to leave for another organization. Theo is under a legally binding contract, and MLB has no power to force them to release him from that contract.
Selig could maybe use the “best interest of baseball” to force them to come to determination one way or the other, but he couldn’t use it to tell them they have to let Theo go. He also has no legal right to “do it for them.”
Federal Baseball Club v. National League, Toolson v. New York Yankees, and Flood v. Kuhn, go look them up, they are all Supreme Court Cases that affirm the commissioner’s broad use of power to determine matters using the reserve clause aka “best interest in baseball” clause.
You can also go look up Charlie Finley and Vida Blue where the commissioner voided out an otherwise legal deal using his powers. You can look at Pete Rose where the commissioner banned a player legally entitled to participate in baseball from participating in baseball.
Finally, if all THAT doesn’t work for you then you can look to last May when he told the now AL Champion Texas Rangers’ previous owners they had to allow the sale to a group headed up by Nolan Ryan. If you think he will use his powers to force a $575m sale of a ball club and won’t for a stupid GM deal that is grabbing headlines away from the World Series I think you are mistaken.
If Epstein had that kind of power, he’d go in there and start signing players to the Marlins and make the Yankees trade a few high priced guys. The fact of the matter is he’s the Commissioner of baseball and he cannot step in and make personnell decisions for the teams. Ant-trust exemption doesn’t mean he can go in and screw around with his business partners.
It’s mind blowing how few people have any kind of basic understanding of negotiations. The same people saying the Cubs can walk away from Theo are now making pronouncements of law suits and using US Supreme Court cases as precedent.
I know people have been through a lot over the years – 2 wars, 9/11, a horrible economy, stock market crash, etc…. but are people really this far gone now?
Selig has no power….riiiiiiight. MLB dictates the rules, Selig can pull a “best interest of baseball” move and order them to get it done or he will do it for them. Your words of the day are: anti-trust exemption.
Selig can do WHATEVER he wants. Seriously anything, why would you think other wise?
Selig can do WHATEVER he wants. Seriously anything, why would you think other wise?
No team on the East Coast is in the World Series so no one cares. At least this will give ESPN something to talk about instead of football.
If there was an EC team in the WS the ESPN advertising cost would be thru the roof but since there isn’t they’ll save some money and let FOX deal w/ the low numbers solo and just talk NFL….
If this was the Yankees taking the headlines away from the World Series by changing the rules of compensation for hiring a GM, Chairman Bud would have come down on them like a ton of bricks immediately and told them to take a bag of balls and let their GM go. But because it’s the Red Sox and Lucchino, he may let them steal the headlines and take all the media oxygen until the World Series is over and beyond.
The compensation should be the Cubs take John Lackey. Then the Red Sox would have less of a burden. Even though I am a huge Cubs fan so I do and don’t like that idea. But the Cubs should cave and just give McNutt to the Sox
you are no cubs fan
you want the cubs to take lackey and give mcnutt?
your probably a crack fan.
He was suggesting that Lackey OR McNutt be the compensation. Not both.
He was suggesting that Lackey OR McNutt be the compensation. Not both.
So Epstein comes over and immediately has to try to ditch ANOTHER high salary pitcher that only Ozzie Guillen wants? If that was the deal and I was Epstein, I’d stay in Boston.
How bout the Cubs ask for permission to speak to Cherington and drop the Epstein negotiations
That would be awesome. Then they lose their replacement and are stuck with lame duck Theo and his millions for the year.
Too bad that will never happen.
Why would Cherington take that job offer? He has a better one waiting for him…
The Red Sox would say no
Well truth be told – Cherington – not Epstein – should have been the guy they pursued from day one. That’s just me.
Maybe, but Theo has a track record of success and they probably wanted something to sell their fans on, like “hey look, we got this guy who has done this before. Please don’t stop showing up to games.” They also probably didn’t envision it happening quite like this.
How bout the Cubs ask for permission to speak to Cherington and drop the Epstein negotiations
There are a million GM’s out there wanting jobs. We can easily walk away from the demands of the Red Sox and be no worse for the wear. Rick Hahn, Andrew Friedman, Josh Byrnes among others would all fit into Chicago’s plans and cost a fraction of what Boston wants. If they’re not careful the Cubs will pull out and hire someone else at half the price.
Then why havent Cubs interviewed anyone else? They got their sites set. If they want this guy, they have to pay. If not walk away (No way they do).
They talked to Beane, Beane doesn’t want to leave California. Byrnes wants to join Epstein in Chicago.
My prediction right now
$3m + McNutt to boston
Cubs get Epstein plus 2-3 of the personal Epstein chooses.
epstein only..no way they let him take ppl for a single prospect that may not amount to anything
Taking any player is a risk, prospect or not. They could take 5 prospects and still end up with nothing of value. The idea of Epstein taking a few people with him is inherent. Look back at the first few posts on this, part of the conversation always included a few staff members following Epstein.
i read on the globe that epstein wasnt allowed to take ppl with him…epstien is one thing..but raiding the front office is another.
The Cubs won’t walk away, but they will wait.
Theo can unofficially run the Cubs show for a year, as he collects 7 million from the BoSox to stay home. After that year Boston gets nothing, except for a boatload of bad P.R. throughout baseball, becoming the spiteful, petty, vindictive team that blocks ex-employees from moving on with their careers.
No. He. Can’t. CONTRACT.
How can he be stopped from having informal, off the record, baseball discussions with his peers.
It would be unethical and probably in violation of his current contract, but virtually impossible to prevent.
Don’t you think it would be best if a fair deal was struck and everybody got on with things.
How can he be stopped from having informal, off the record, baseball discussions with his peers.
It would be unethical and probably in violation of his current contract, but virtually impossible to prevent.
Don’t you think it would be best if a fair deal was struck and everybody got on with things.
There are a million GM’s out there wanting jobs. We can easily walk away from the demands of the Red Sox and be no worse for the wear. Rick Hahn, Andrew Friedman, Josh Byrnes among others would all fit into Chicago’s plans and cost a fraction of what Boston wants. If they’re not careful the Cubs will pull out and hire someone else at half the price.
Boston just take the money cause their is no way you’re getting a top 3 prospect (Brett Jackson, Matt Szczur, Trey McNutt IE. 2012) and you’re not getting Matt Garza or Andrew Cashner. If you need players that bad, then take, Vitters, Carpenter, and Castillo and be happy.
Money? No way they take money. The PR hit in Boston would be tremendous (Fenway ticket 2nd most expensive behind new Yank stadium – You think fanbase will be pleased with them taking cash). If it will get what they want, the Sox will send a couple of wheelbarrels of the stuff with Epstein. Lets get real: Pony up, or fold. Up to you Chicago.
Chicago has all the leverage. Either take what chicago offers or watch Randy Busch gm for a year and the Cubs will take Epstein and all his buddies and you’ll get nothing.
Oh and while we wait, Boston has an angry assistant GM who was promised a job then backed out and they have to pay epstein who doesn’t want to be there and boston doesn’t want him.
“angry assistant gm” thats a new one. You must been talking to Cherington personally. Enough with everyone’s 2 cent insight into Epstein and Cherington’s feelings. They only brought into argument when there isnt a sound basis for Red Sox to settle for less than they want to.
Boston can take whats offered, ask for more, or walk away. Chicago can offer more, or walk away. I’d say leverage is even.
Its a poker game. Pony up or Fold!
Have fun paying the estranged Epstein!
6-7mm for Epstein? Oh no, how could we possibly afford that!
Gaw New Englanders are whiny.
I somewhat understand the concern about the PR hit…but I thought we were talking about Boston. So if they just take cash, you all are going to stop showing up at Fenway? Or since no one would submit themselves to the anathema of turning to New York, you all start rooting for the Orioles? I understand the argument, but it doesn’t really change anything. They’ll do the same thing that both Red Sox and Cubs fans have always done: complain about it to no end, talk about how much better you would’ve handled it if it were up to you, and eventually move on. The only difference is that you guys won’t completely pronounced your r’s.
I’m not saying Boston should just cave and take the money, just saying this isn’t the reason why they shouldn’t.
The Red Sox have plenty of cash. They want prospects. The price isn’t cash. It’s prospects. Pay up. Or move along.
Apparently you missed my point…
The Red Sox have plenty of cash. They want prospects. The price isn’t cash. It’s prospects. Pay up. Or move along.
Boston just take the money cause their is no way you’re getting a top 3 prospect (Brett Jackson, Matt Szczur, Trey McNutt IE. 2012) and you’re not getting Matt Garza or Andrew Cashner. If you need players that bad, then take, Vitters, Carpenter, and Castillo and be happy.
the red sox have become the ex-gf who wont give your cd’s back, move on.
Cubs are the ugly guy who cant get a gf. So they willing to give the farm (literally) to get one.
I highly doubt giving two players is considered the “Farm”. hahaha
It kind of is for the Cubs. If it wasn’t they likely would have agreed by now.
Would they of?
To give up anything, you have to be pretty desperate. Does anyone in Chicago care about his FA track record.
Lackey, JD Drew, Matsusaka, Penny, Smoltz, Lugo, Renteria, Hinske, Mendoza, Jenks, Clement
He’s got a few low level (Even a blind squirrel finds a nut, once in a while). Sabermetrics works alot better on nobodies trying to prove themselves. He lacks putting the human element into throwing millions at a person.
Cubs system stinks. That is their entire farm (of value).
If the Cubs are the ugly guy who can’t get a girlfriend, why is Epstein wanting to go there? In this situation, I think the Cubs are actually a fairly impressive prospect, considering how many people would love the shot at being the next GM.
Umh more money. Longer contract. Ugly guy trying to buy a date.
You really think that’s it? For one, the Cubs have a lot of the same draws as the Red Sox do. Two, if Epstein wins in Chicago, he will have put an end to almost 200 years worth of curses/droughts/losing streaks/whatever. No other GM would even have a shot at coming close until at least 2115. So since you’re clearly stuck on this metaphor of the Cubs being an ugly guy, it’s like the ugly guy who has a lot of attractive qualities and assets and gives you a shot at being famous for all the right reasons.
Some reason all the ugly guys I know date pretty attractive women. Shrug. Sampling bias?
Just in case you have not noticed the cubs dont want to give up any prospects (just cash) much less the farm. Read this thread and the previous 5 so you can be up 2 speed on the subject. You were calling me dumb earlier when you are really ignorant and I pitty you.
Why would Jed Hoyer want a demotion from his Padres GM job? I know he’s obviously worked with Theo with the sox, but he’s worked his whole career to become the top guy.
Anyone have any ideas?
Maybe Theo is above the GM in this scenario (simply team President), and Hoyer becomes the GM. Being the GM of Chicago is certainly a step up from being the GM in San Diego.
I see what you’re saying, but even if Jed had the title of GM with the Cubs, the Cubs are not paying Theo $18.5MM to let Jed take control of baseball operations.
Agree cam. Doesn’t make sense. Theo is probably just targetting Byrnes and Padres scouting dept guys.
I think Epstein would be President of Baseball Operations, like Lucchino (ugh) and Hoyer would be made the general manager.
The Padres have already said they well not allow teams to interview their staff if it’s a lateral move. Meaning Hoyer, Byrnes, McLoed aren’t going anywhere unless it’s a promotion.
Then the first point in this article completely baffles me.
Then the first point in this article completely baffles me.
That does not sound very difficult.
Again! another gem from you! I can’t wait to hear what come up with next, before long, you’ll become king of this forum and everyone would have to agree with the stupid, and far fetched things that you have to say! Bravo!
Too bad Henry didn’t say the same thing when the Cubs asked to talk to Theo.
Yes, the difference being that the Red Sox will be getting compensation.
I agree and they shouldn’t let anyone leave unless it is a “title” and salary promotion.
Can’t we just give up John Lackey and be done with it?
Want to solve this……… Alfonso Soriano for Theo and Crawford
Oh boy. Looks like Theo is trying to get his old boys back together to break another drought. Good luck Theo, wish you nothing but the best but can we MOVE ON NOW?!
I hope the Cubs aren’t seriously considering Hoyer. Nothing against him, but it seems like another lateral-at-best move for which a team is likely to demand compensation. I just want this damn thing to be over, not to start again with another team for a lower position.
“george steinbrenner was something that boston has never had”
I guess they stumbled upon those 2 championships.
compared to 5 in the past 15 years your going to crow about 2 championships in the past 90 years
lol irony
lol disqus fail
This Theo thing is turning into the baseball version of “The Walking Dead.” How much internet ink is MLB Trade Rumors burning up on this story?
Very few FA’s or potential FA’s are Lee or Weaver where it is not 100% about the money. Follow the Green Line and I don’t mean that trolley that runs to Fenway.
Just like the Marlins did with Ozzie, and just the Rays did with Piniella you HAVE to pay for someone that is under contract.
Taking out bias it’s quite easy to see who is being the little child about all this:
Team A has someone under contract….
Team B wants someone under contract…
Team B thinks they should just get that person without having to pay something for him….
The Cubs should absolutely play hard ball with this, but in the end they are going to have to give up something in order to get their guy for this season. The longer they wait the worse off they will be (not the Red Sox).
Team B thinks they should just get that person without having to pay something for him….
CASH is something.
yeah, that’s cute and everything but its just not the way it works.
When you want an asset, you pay the asking price. Not just what you think you should have to pay
Can someone tell me what’s preventing Theo from quitting his job with the Red Sox then signing with the Cubs anyway?
I really don’t understand how Boston has any leverage.
A contract is preventing that.
People quit jobs all the time. On contract or not.
Gunsnascar sums it up perfectly. While Theo CAN quit, he can’t quit AND get a job with the Cubs until his contract would have expired.
It’s the same reason Felix Hernandez can’t just quit the Mariners and sign with whoever he wants…
But Hernandez’s contract is covered by a CBA, Theo’s is not.
The dissolution of the contract shouldn’t be one sided. I mean, if the Red Sox fired Theo, it’s not like they’d be forced to not have a GM for the next year. That’s silly. And do you think Jim Riggleman wouldn’t have been allowed to take another job this year immediately after he quit (not that anyone would have wanted him)?
Ok. So instead of me wasting my time trying to explain something you will probably never understand, I’ll just say this:
It’s not going to happen because it can’t.
Ok. So instead of me wasting my time trying to explain something you will probably never understand, I’ll just say this:
It’s not going to happen because it can’t.
That’s not how this kind of contract works. Theo signed a contract to work for the Red Sox, the Red Sox didn’t sign a contract to employ Theo.
People quit jobs all the time, but most people don’t work under contract. Theo can’t just quit and go work for another team, contracts are legally binding; Theo could forfeit the rest of the money owed and not work for the Sox anymore, but he wouldn’t be able to work for anyone until the term of his contract is complete.
I think the Red Sox should make Theo do Cherington’s old job and proceed with the new GM plan.
Theo Epstein has a contractual obligation that he signed of his own accord with the Boston Red Sox and that contract does not expire untill the end of the 2012 baseball season. If Theo “quit” his job that probably wouldn’t be a big problem ,but the problem comes in when Theo wants to sign a new contract with the Cubs while he is still obligated to the bosox. Thats a no no.
It’s called a contract. He’s signed until next year, he can’t very well call ‘time out’ and walk away.
and im sure the ppl Theo would like to take with him from the sox front office are also under contract.
I doubt it that they are under contract unless they are assistant GM’s.
Theo would have to pay a “buyout” like fee, I am sure.
He can only do that if it was part of his contract, there’s no indication that his contract has any sort of buyout clause.
Do you think they’d agree to Epstein and a few personnel for McNutt and a goat?
Hoyer said he’s not going to comment on media speculation […] “I’m excited about what we continue to build here in San Diego”.
Does anybody remember what he said to Lee Hacksaw Hamilton i think it was, back in 2009 when an inside source with the Padres said that Hoyer was trying to move Adrián González to Boston? nope? he said “i am not goint to comment on speculation, we have no desire to trade Adrián”; cue a year and a half later and he was talking about how excited he was with the idea of watching him play at Fenway.
So… is it waaay out of proportion that he’d lend a hand to his good friend Theo? that’s why there’s the “speculation” that he or one of his employees with ties to Theo will leave the Padres organization to act in behalf of Theo while he awaits for his contract with the sox to run out.
If what you are explaining ends up happening, MLB has to step in. This is starting to become a soap opera. Epstein, at this point, would be better off having all of his lackys stay where they are and just trade all of there good players to the Cubs for nothing. Why have all your pals in Chicago when you can just skype them all of the country.
OK, i think I’ve read about 1000 posts on this topic, who has leverage, what is Epstein worth, who backs away, etc. Time to think outside the box. Just get Miami involved, and make it a 3 way. Miami takes cash and a Cub scrub, sends a real prospect to Boston, Cubs get Epstein. Done!
The Cubs must be assbackwards if they need to rob other teams of their front office personel. Epstein is bad enough, but him AND Hoyer? Very lame. If they went after executives from the team I cheer for, I’d drive to Chicago and slap them all.
Why do people keep saying that the Cubs are robbing teams? If the Padres don’t want Hoyer to go, then don’t give permission. End of it. If Theo was indeed interviewing for the Cubs’ GM job, then all Boston had to do was deny permission. It’s not raiding, nor stealing. Get your definitions right people.
Secondly, the Red Soxs are being douches right now. I don’t think that there’s any other way to describe it. Asking for players as compensation in this situation has nothing to do with baseball. It’s to save face. I mean if they believe that McNutt will never see the major leagues, and that’s a consensus around the league, then why do you want him? Why? Other than to save face. You don’t want to make it look like you got played or you got short changed, so you have to make it appear toward your fanbase that you at least got something other than cash. I mean, if Boston believes that McNutt is someone who could really help them and make it to major league roster, then I’d call this a baseball move. That is asking for him as compensation. But if they truly believe that he’ll never be on a major league roster, then I just call it a team trying to save face.
Thirdly, the Cubs are idiots. You’re holding this up for McNutt. Really….McNutt? Give him to Boston and move on. The Cubs are letting pride get in the way of doing business (same as the Red Soxs). If Epstein is your #1 guy, then do the deal.
Both sides are idiots. The concept of getting “compensation” or “stealing personal for nothing”, or “precedent” is all moot in the end. The Red Soxs don’t believe that McNutt will make it to the majors, so how is he the proper compensation that they and some Boston fans are asking for. McNutt may make you sleep better at night, and may help you think that you didn’t get “short changed”, but in the end does he really change anything in your organization. Is he actual”compensation”? The Cubs aren’t stealing personal. If Boston didn’t want Epstein to leave, then they shouldn’t have granted permission. They would have been well within their rights to say, “no” to the Cubs, and that would have been the end of it. Some are using the “precedent” argument. Or the idea that the Cubs don’t have to give anything because it’s rarely done. But in the end, the Cubs are just as big of idiots as Boston is. Give up McNutt. What is it really costing you other than pride.
Simple fact, if common sense had emerged from its hole and pride had gone into his, this deal would have be done. Both teams are idiots.
But neither team is on any sort of timeline.
It’s only fans who are making a big deal out of every little morsel of news and trying to justify every offer whether or not seriously made.
My guess is that neither side is being nearly as unreasonable as the fans who keep posting about it. They’re pros. They make trades for a living.
“Secondly, the Red Soxs are being douches right now. I don’t think that there’s any other way to describe it. Asking for players as compensation in this situation has nothing to do with baseball. ”
what…are you serious? lol
Boston started by asking for Garza, someone who WOULD make baseball sense and WOULD make their major league roster. The Cubs said flat-out no. McNutt isn’t what Boston considers the perfect compensation, but the Cubs have bargained them down to him. It’s not like Boston would ask for Garza, get told no and then just give Epstein up for nothing.
Why do people keep saying that the Cubs are robbing teams? If the Padres don’t want Hoyer to go, then don’t give permission. End of it. If Theo was indeed interviewing for the Cubs’ GM job, then all Boston had to do was deny permission. It’s not raiding, nor stealing. Get your definitions right people.
Secondly, the Red Soxs are being douches right now. I don’t think that there’s any other way to describe it. Asking for players as compensation in this situation has nothing to do with baseball. It’s to save face. I mean if they believe that McNutt will never see the major leagues, and that’s a consensus around the league, then why do you want him? Why? Other than to save face. You don’t want to make it look like you got played or you got short changed, so you have to make it appear toward your fanbase that you at least got something other than cash. I mean, if Boston believes that McNutt is someone who could really help them and make it to major league roster, then I’d call this a baseball move. That is asking for him as compensation. But if they truly believe that he’ll never be on a major league roster, then I just call it a team trying to save face.
Thirdly, the Cubs are idiots. You’re holding this up for McNutt. Really….McNutt? Give him to Boston and move on. The Cubs are letting pride get in the way of doing business (same as the Red Soxs). If Epstein is your #1 guy, then do the deal.
Both sides are idiots. The concept of getting “compensation” or “stealing personal for nothing”, or “precedent” is all moot in the end. The Red Soxs don’t believe that McNutt will make it to the majors, so how is he the proper compensation that they and some Boston fans are asking for. McNutt may make you sleep better at night, and may help you think that you didn’t get “short changed”, but in the end does he really change anything in your organization. Is he actual”compensation”? The Cubs aren’t stealing personal. If Boston didn’t want Epstein to leave, then they shouldn’t have granted permission. They would have been well within their rights to say, “no” to the Cubs, and that would have been the end of it. Some are using the “precedent” argument. Or the idea that the Cubs don’t have to give anything because it’s rarely done. But in the end, the Cubs are just as big of idiots as Boston is. Give up McNutt. What is it really costing you other than pride.
Simple fact, if common sense had emerged from its hole and pride had gone into his, this deal would have be done. Both teams are idiots.
Boston is “holding tough” on their asking price? YES.
GARZA OR BUST!!!!!!!!!!!!!
…jk I’ll take Sean Marshall…
Boston is “holding tough” on their asking price? YES.
If Epstein is such a genius, why does he have to take executives from the Red Sox and grab his buddies from the Padres? Maybe he’s just a good front man and can’t get anything done himself. Theo just sits back and gets all the praise, while his pals do all the work. I’m starting to dislike this guy.
Spot on. And more to that point, I think Cubs more interested in his connections and who he can bring to the management staff as opposed to his own talents.
It’s starting to look to me like Epstein is quite inept at putting a team together without his boys. I hope he goes to the Cubs and nobody goes with him, then we’d see how good he is. If Hoyer takes a step backwards just to be with his buddy, as a Padre fan, I will be disgusted. If he gets the GM title and Moorad gets his boy wonder, Byrnes, in as GM, then I’d be OK with it. Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather keep Hoyer, because I wasn’t overly impressed by what Byrnes did in Arizona.
Yes, clearly Theo should do it by himself.
All I’m saying is if he is such a great GM, why does he have to go around a grab all of his buddies from other teams? Looking back at the last 2 seasons, as his front office thinned out, the Sox didn’t make the playoffs. It may be coincidence, but it could also be that he isn’t as good a GM as everybody thinks.
Because they are the people he is familiar with and he knows that they know what they are doing. It’s not going to be an easy job turning the Cubs organization around and having people around him that he trust, and has been through it before with, is going to make it that much easier.
Right, so he wants his understudies to get him a quick fix in Chicago and can get all the praise.
He wants people he knows and trusts around him instead of unproven people he doesn’t have any experience with.
That’s a good (smart) thing.
This is insane. Of course Theo can’t do it all by himself. Is Theo going to scout every prospect, sign every FA, work out every trade, and negotiate every deal? It wasn’t only Theo in the BoSox front office that made him so great, or else Cherington wouldn’t be so highly regarded. But Theo clearly has surrounded himself with people who can get the job done and has connected himself very well, which is what makes him so attractive to the Cubs. Great business people are usually not micromanagers, they are usually people who can find the right people to delegate jobs to. Baseball operations are no different.
I realize he can’t do it all himself, but pillaging other MLB teams just so his job is easier in Chicago isn’t right either. If he is such a great front office man, can’t he find “new” assistants who think like him. If Hoyer and McLeod leave the Padres, you would have to think that any of his understudies will have a heck of a time finding work with other teams down the road. Showing that much loyalty to Epstein is great for him, but not great for their careers. I agree with you on one thing, it wasn’t only Theo who made the Boston front office look good, but it was Theo who “erased the curse of the Bambino” right? Hoyer, Cherington, and McLeod never got any publicity back then, it was always Theo’s face plastered everywhere.
“Pillaging”?
You do realize these other teams will have to grant him permission to even talk to their executives. If they felt like they were being “pillaged” they’d just deny him.
And I hope they do.
Contrary to what you may believe, many would say a lateral move from the small-market San Diego to big-market Chicago would be somewhat of a promotion. Consider a collegiate Athletic Director at a midmajor school, who is hired as the Athletic Director at a major conference school. It’s technically a lateral move, but no one would deny the fact that it is a promotion. The Padres-to-Cubs move would be similar, if only on a smaller scale.
And I wouldn’t consider legally asking to hire personnel from another office as pillaging, as San Diego has every right to retain them. It’s not as if Hoyer would move to Chicago against his will.
All I’m saying is if he is such a great GM, why does he have to go around a grab all of his buddies from other teams? Looking back at the last 2 seasons, as his front office thinned out, the Sox didn’t make the playoffs. It may be coincidence, but it could also be that he isn’t as good a GM as everybody thinks.
I’m pretty sure Theo’s “boys” are under contract with the sox..seriously doubt they will let him take ppl with him.
Theo’s “boys” are under contract with the Padres and he’s trying to get them to go with him. It doesn’t matter where he’s grabbing them from, he’s pillaging other teams. If Moorad didn’t have a man crush on Byrnes this wouldn’t be an issue, he would just say no, but now we have to read and talk about this for a month.
Sox won’t let Theo raid the organization..This has already been made clear. I doubt the Sox let Theo take anybody with him…expect Lackey of course lol
You’re kidding, right?
EVERY GM needs a group of smart people he can trust to work with. Brian Cashman doesn’t work alone, Andrew Friedman doesn’t work alone, Billy Beane doesn’t work alone, EVERY GM has a staff that works with him, and it makes total sense that Theo would want to work with people who already know how HE works. He still is in charge and it’s his system and game-plan they are working from, but he needs a staff to help him execute.
It seems 2 me there’s alot of Red Sox fans that love 2 bash us Cubs fans…1st of all it’s all the Red Sox own fault 4 letting the Cubs talk 2 Epstein in the first place…a friendly NO thanks is all it took but look were we are now…in a tug a war over Compension…the Cubs should just pay the Red Sox for the final years of Epstein’s remaining contract & move on….but NO the RedSox are greedy…they think like the Yankee’s brass..the Redsox have more then enough money…why do they need more cash..they wasted money on Crawford..that Red Sox brass signed and Epstein wanted…seems 2 me with the Cubs wasted money on Soriano and the Sox wasted on Lackey and the Cubs wasting time paying a lame duck in Hendry it seems 2 me both teams should make this a draw…how about this Soriano/Mcnutt/and a draft pick or low level prospect for Epstein/lackey/asst’s/medical staff
and both get equal cash…but i’m a Cubs fan loyal honest…and have all the respect to ALL Red Sox fans….as well
“but NO the RedSox are greedy…they think like the Yankee’s brass..the
Redsox have more then enough money…why do they need more cash..”
The problem is the Red Sox don’t want any cash they want talent. They too realize that they have enough money.
You are simple. Rather than argue with you point by point, I’m not going to waste my time. I’ll just say this: the Cubs lost the leverage battle as soon as they leaked the deal with Theo, before they got the compensation set.
This is YOUR team’s fault, they were way too public about their Theo infatuation and should’ve got a bassline for what type of compensation it would take. For them to just assume the Red Sox wouldn’t request a top prospect or two in a mediocre farm system is dumb on their part. Then, they laughably tried to say the compensation was the Red Sox losing Theo’s salary obligation (to which Lucchino probably said well if you think salary relief is important, we’ll take Garza off your hands to balance out the cash even). Complain about your team, not the other team who is rightfully using their leverage.
Asking for the Red Sox to just give in and take nothing good back is like a little kid crying for a candy bar at the grocery store…which is what the majority of Cubs fans (and their embarrassing media who are also fans) sound like. To be clear, I’m a Red Sox fan and can’t stand most of my own kind either, don’t be so sensitive.
I don’t know if the Cubs leaked the deal or not, but I don’t think there’s any way a team can agree to a contract with Theo Epstein and it doesn’t make the papers.
It really matters a lot less than you think from a PR standpoint whether the Cubs get Epstein. The Cubs fans were just happy to get rid of Hendry, pretty much anything else is a bonus.
And anyway, I really hope that neither team particularly cares what their fans think, because if the posts here are any indication, both teams’ fans are complete morons.
couldn’t have said it better myself.
The only thing correct about your post is the screen name!
I’ve dealt with Cubs fans for a number of years, in Wrigley, at Shea, Citi Field and a few times at Yankees Stadium. Cubs fans have the unfair stereotypical tag of being obnoxious, silly and stupid associated with them. Unfortunately, you give creedance to the stereotype.
Sox are greedy for not wanting to give away one of the best GMs in the game for pretty much nothing? Its the Cubs that don’t have any talent in their system..they don’t even wanna give up McNutt..Looks to me as if the Cubs and their fans are greedy. The Sox most likely let Theo take the interview out of respect and knowing that Theo wants the chance to further prove himself by helping the Cubs end their drought…I bet the Sox would like nothing more than to have Theo stay in Boston for years to come..but they won’t force him to stay..
Epstein and the Cubs should try to pry Cashman away from the Yankees
The real problem is, the Cubs system is so empty that they only have a few quality prospects…the Red Sox obviously want quality talent, and the Cubs understandingly don’t want to give it up. If the Cubs had better prospects, this deal gets done easy…since they don’t, they are being unreasonable and trying to keep decent but very flawed prospects (ie Vitters, McNutt, etc.).
The Cubs tried to just give cash, and the Red Sox said no. The fact that some Cubs fans don’t even know this (and that a lot want the Cubs to “go for it” next year) is why I don’t engage them, it’s a waste of time. I thought Red Sox fans were overrated…
I still say they should change course and ask for 2-3 “lottery ticket” prospects from the low minors.
seems as if they dont even wanna give up McNutt.
The system is not devoid of talent. In the past three to four years the Cubs drafts have been above par. The fact that most of our good talent is A ball or lower does not mean the system is poor. It just means that the system is very young and the major talent is three to four years away from MLB status.
So Theo is sitting in his Red Sox office, getting paid by the Sox, waiting for the deal to be completed between the Sox and the Cubs—and is actively looking for a GM for the Cubs? WHAT? Did I nod off again?
Lets hope the Cubs & Red Sox settle their differences before opening day, 2012. As for now, there are more important things to be concerned with….
Both teams are idiots. clearly. So the Red Soxs aren’t giving away
Epstein if they McNutt? No, they’re still giving him away. If you
believe as they believe that he will never see the light of day of a
major league roster. How does getting McNutt make everything better? How
is he fair compensation? That’s right, he’s not. And obviously the Cubs
are being idiots for not just giving away McNutt. Even if they give
McNutt to the Red Soxs, it’s still a steal for them. They get Epstein
for some cash and McNutt? If that’s the case then do the deal because that in itself is a great bargain deal.
Both teams look pretty bad in this situation. Anybody who thinks their team is more in the right, even if slightly, more than the other needs a wake-up call.
It looks like collusion in baseball Hoyer and Epstein, Sox get Gonzalez, Alderson works for Selig and Brewers get K-Rod, and Wade leaves the Phillies for Astros who were in the world series in 2005 and know have become a Phillie feeder system.
I thought Theo was heading to Chicago to be the GM. What’s the point if he takes on another role? If indeed that is the case, I hope Chi and Bos can’t get anything worked out and he stays in Boston.
What about the collusion in baseball, Epstein and Hoyer and the Sox get Gonzalez, Alderson works for Selig and the Brewers get K- Rod, and the Astros are in the 2005 world series and Wade comes along and the Astros become a feeder system for the Phils,