If Kendrys Morales returns from his left ankle injury by Spring Training, Angels manager Mike Scioscia will have seven players competing for five spots. Morales, Mark Trumbo, Peter Bourjos, Bobby Abreu, Torii Hunter, Vernon Wells and Mike Trout would have to share playing time in the outfield and at first and DH.
The issue could resolve itself or disappear completely in a number of ways. The Angels' new GM could make an unexpected trade. Trumbo could transition to third base. Someone could get hurt. Or, if all seven players are healthy, the Angels could consider demoting Trout.
The Angels called Trout up from Double-A before he turned 20, which suggests they aren't about to let service time considerations dominate their decision making. Still, it wouldn't be hard to argue that Trout could use more minor league seasoning. He was Baseball America's minor league player of the year, but he struggled to hit MLB pitching, posting a .220/.281/.390 line in 135 plate appearances with the Angels.
Trout picked up 83 days of service time in 2011, which means he's 89 days short of the 172-days required for a full year. If the Angels allow Trout to pick up 89 days of service time next year, he'll have a full year of service and be on track for free agency after 2017.
If the Angels want to keep Trout under their control for an extra year, they could option him to the minor leagues for the season's first three months. In doing so, they'd ensure that Trout doesn't pick up more than 88 days of service in 2011. Combine 85 or so days next year with the 83 days he picked up in '11 and he'll still fall short of a full year of service next offseason and remain under the Angels' control through 2018.
It's probably academic, as the Angels showed they're willing to call on Trout if they believe he can make their team better, even if it means risking an earlier free agent departure. Trout's development and the team's roster composition will likely outweigh service time considerations for the Angels in 2012.
Photo courtesy Icon SMI.
he will sign a 11 year contract to stay as an angel and become the best outfielder in the league. of course that contract beats out scoscia’s.
What if he has a Heyward-like 2nd year?
he had a heyward-like first year
Wouldn’t surprise me to see Trumbo or Bourjos traded (Trumbo more likely), as well as Abreu either traded or just benched. If Trout has a good spring, he should be starting
what sort of value would you expect Trumbo to bring back? He really struggled to get on base.
So did Beltre (.297 OBP on the road), and that was with a lot of protection. The run production Trumbo provided made a huge difference, and he had little or no protection. Heck, if I had Jeff Mathis hitting behind me 2/3 of the season, I’d probably want to go up there hacking every time as well.
Beltre is a bad comparison, sure his career obp is only .329, but offers a lot on the other side of the ball. Beltre is one of the top fielding 3rd basemen in the league.
Trumbo plays the least defensive challenging position
Beltre has had 2 good years in a row because he played in hitters ballparks both years, and was surrounded with protection. Trumbo is a rookie, plays in a pitcher’s ballpark, has little or no protection, is on a team with a very low overall OBP, yet he pulled off 29 HR and 87 RBI. Beltre has had what 3 or 4 good seasons out 14? Wait a minute though; he played 5 seasons in Seattle and could barely pull off a .300 OBP in some seasons and somehow managed over 20 HR and over 80 RBI while playing half his games at one of the most pitcher friendly parks in all of baseball. We’re now seeing what Beltre can do in a hitter friendly ballpark, and with lots of protection. I’m curious to see what Trumbo — who is going into just his second full season — can do for a team playing in a hitter friendly ballpark, and with all that protection Beltre has.
okay, so you completely disregarded my rebuttal about defensive differences..
If Mark Trumbo was a good fielding, 3B, SS, 2B I would certainly give him the benefit of the doubt moving forward. but playing first base and posting a sub .300 obp doesn’t fly.
you also over hype lineup protection, it doesn’t make the difference you think it does.
The rebuttal was off subject; your original argument was about getting on base, which you over value because OBP is less important for middle of the order bats. The top 2 spots in the batting order are where high OBP has more importance.
But while we’re at it, obviously Trumbo is a slugging first baseman who needs improvement defensively. He’s not the only slugging first baseman who has needed that. Teixeira and AGon both had to find themselves defensively early in their careers; both committed as many as 10 errors themselves early on. It’s not automatic. And you’re talking like Trumbo is a veteran; he was a rookie. What he did in just his first full season is pretty remarkable considering the weaknesses his team had, and the fact that he was never supposed to be a starting player in 2011.
Protection does make a big difference.
No no I dont care if he’s a good defensive first basemen, if he was he would still be bad..
and teixera’s rookie OBP was .331 and his career mark is .373
Adrian gonzalez’s rookie obp was .362 and his career mark is .375
and no protection doesnt make that much of a difference, only in terms of IBB.. but if a pitcher is going to attack you to get you out, they are going to do so regardless of who is hitting behind you. pitchers have proven they can get out Trumbo and that he cant take a walk.
Trumbo was barley a rookie this past year. He’s going to keep improving you act like he’s past his prime and has no chance of increasing his OBP. I’ve never seen him play defense but if he’s as bad as you say he is then he can just DH.
He’s turning 26 and the team has better options.
Such as? You expect Morales to do anything?
Morales had .924 OPS in 2009, and was having a fine season before he got hurt..
If he played in the outfield I would worry, or if it was an upper body injury.. but its his ankle, if he heals enough to play I dont see any reason why his bat would suffer greatly.. even a mediocre year from him is better then trumbo
There is no guarantee that Morales will come back the same…he has been unable to even do any baseball activities for 1 1/2 years…
Myself having a sever ankle injury it took a lot to get my running and power back to the level I was at prior and I actually didn’t make it….mine wasn’t as bad as his…I’m in now way saying I have his skill….or PT for that matter but he has a long UNCERTAIN road to recovery as to how he will produce….
The Angels claim they ther are going to approach this off season like he is nonexistant so if he comes back damaged goods they are covered and if he comes back full strength they now have depth and can address that issue when if/it arises….this to me is teh smart way to handle it….too many people on these forums want to make moves to make moves IMO….
There is no guarantee that Morales will come back the same…he has been unable to even do any baseball activities for 1 1/2 years…
Myself having a sever ankle injury it took a lot to get my running and power back to the level I was at prior and I actually didn’t make it….mine wasn’t as bad as his…I’m in now way saying I have his skill….or PT for that matter but he has a long UNCERTAIN road to recovery as to how he will produce….
The Angels claim they ther are going to approach this off season like he is nonexistant so if he comes back damaged goods they are covered and if he comes back full strength they now have depth and can address that issue when if/it arises….this to me is teh smart way to handle it….too many people on these forums want to make moves to make moves IMO….
“The top 2 spots in the batting order are where high OBP has more importance. ”
doing it wrong
“Protection does make a big difference.”
show your work. i’ll start:
hardballtimes.com/main/article/pitching-around-bat…
sample of 800,000. protection leads to fewer walks, but overall no significant difference in production. the small difference that exists is found to be negative, not positive
your turn
We get Morales 1B.. Morales i hope will be %110 and Blood thirsty.. Morales,Trumbo,Wells.. Gives Trumbo protection.. Plus he isn’t discipline he swung at the low curve ball alot..He will learn not to swing at that so often..he be good to go..Situation: Morales gets walked, Trumbo gets a homer/single/dbl.. Moving Kendrys to scoring position or kendrys scores.. then Wells come’s in.. I hope Wells gets back into it aswel.. and to point out unprotected batter according to that article get an avg of 16 homers..Protected avg 18
To be honest the whole team swung at the slider low and away….Hatcher is a POS hitting instructor IMO and needs to go….Nap couldn’t hit worth a crap but once he got away from Hatch he has a career year? Figgy attributed his success to Abreu not Hatcher
Vlad didn’t have protection his entire career in Montreal and put up damn good numbers…he came to Anaheim and had no protection and he put up damn good numbers….the team got “protection” (Tiex) and his number didn’t change….Vlad went to Texas and he had damn good numbers but not cuz of protection but b/c the park….his splits drastically favored home field….much like Beltre this year…Nap on the other hand hit the same home/away w/ the edge to away….
Mark Trumbo = Mike Jacobs part 2. He’s got no real future in the bigs, maybe a bad team will take him on because he can hit 30 HR, but thats literally the only thing he can do. He’s a decent backup plan for the superior talent in Morales, but to take his cause on like he’s anything special is really a lack of knowledge on your part.
Bad Comparison? Provides more of the other side? I believe Trumbo Provides more of the otherside aswell.. He had 29 homers with 89 Rbis.. Yes is Avg was .250 but he has pop and he didn’t have protection in the lineup.. Move him to RF.. We keep Trumbo get him protection and he be rolling lets go halos
so you saw my defensively value and came back with batting average, pop and rbis…
you win
RBI’s are entirely reliant on other players getting on base. You can get an RBI by making an out. Making an out is not a hitters job. If a player hit entirely sacrifice flies and had a slash line of .000/.000/.000 with 200 RBI would you say he’s a good player? Because thats a feasible thing. And its not good.
“So did Beltre (.297 OBP on the road), and that was with a lot of protection.”
protection tends to decrease walks, not increase them. there is no evidence that having a better hitter behind you makes you more productive
Whats funny is that when he was with Boston Beltre hit better on the road than at Fenway.
I’m not saying he will bring back a top SP or anything like that, but for first year in the bigs he did pretty well. I know his OBP was terrible and he can’t take a breaking ball to save his life, but he still has value, and when you are trying to make things work and have a plethora of players, you have to make decisions on what to do. Depending how the Fielder/Pujols/maybe Votto thing turns out, i could see the Brewers, Rays, and a number of other teams that wouldn’t mind a somewhat young 1B with tons of power and just going into his second year.
This all really depends on the new GM and the relationship he/she has with the Manager and owner. Angels aren’t really known to trade away their young players, but it has hurt them in the past and if there are deals that can upgrade the club, they should not hesitate.
I should also add that this also depends on the health of Morales and if for some unforeseen reason that the Angels sign Fielder or Pujols.
This is easy.. Trade Abreu, Send Trout back down, Convert Trumbo to RF, Morales 1B.. Hunter,Wells LF/Dh, Pete CF.. Problem solved. To easy.. Trade Alberto also along with Mathis
This is easy:
Trade Trumbo while he has some kind of value
Trade Abreu for whatever you can get
Run with an everyday OF of Bourjos-Trout-Wells
Play Morales at DH or 1B
Trade for or sign a 1B if Morales cant cut it
Trade Hunter or tell him he’s the 4th OF/DH. Maybe he’d be happy with that role? If not, trade him.
Their young, elite outfield depth makes the Vernon Wells trade even stupider..
They are going to have to demote Trout, or trade Bourjous because Vernon Wells is obviously going to have to be run out there
If Trout has a good spring and produces, we’ll likely see Wells and/or Hunter DHing more, with Abreu on the bench or traded. Or, if Hunter has to DH full time, there can either be a platoon with Trout, or Trout in the OF all season with Abreu on the bench. This of course also hinges on whether or not Morales actually returns, or if the Angels somehow find a way to lure a Prince Fielder at 1B, which I’m not really counting on. If the Angels eat up a big chunk of Wells’ salary, there are teams playing in hitters ballparks (Phillies, Yankees, Red Sox, Orioles) who could take him. Don’t forget that Hunter is a FA after 2012, and 2013 is the time Trout is projected to be a full time starter in the OF. For the time being though, there’s a lot of mixing and matching that can be done here.
Vernon wells’ obp last year was .248…you would have a tough time giving him away for free at this point..
I don’t see how he would be anything more then a 4th out fielder for the phillies, yankees and redsox…
and unless reagins gets the job in baltimore, its prob not gunna happen
Wells played in a pitchers park. Yankees, Phillies, and Red Sox play in hitters parks. Many players on those teams have had exaggerated numbers over the years. Just about any player can go play for those 3 teams and see their numbers inflated. Meanwhile, several players (Vladdy included) have seen their numbers drop, sometimes dramatically, when going to the Angels. It’s widely known that Wells has succeeded playing in hitters parks. I’m not saying it will happen, but these are facts that have been argued for years regarding hitters ballparks vs. pitchers ballparks, especially when it comes to the argument against Wells coming to Anaheim.
oh dear.
You know that vernon had bad years as a Jay right… in a hitters park… you’re also completely disregarding the fact that the Yankees, phillies and Red sox all have 3 better options in the outfield already.
nevermind all of that i have a strong opinion
So what? Every player has a bad year or two regardless. But the argument that has been made by MANY people is still sound, and probably still stands: Vernon Wells succeeds more in a hitters ballpark.
And no I am not disregarding anything the Yankees, Phillies, and Red Sox have or don’t have. All three teams have big decisions to make in their OF. The Yankees have to decide on what to do to add starting pitching; if they want to exercise Swisher’s option; and who will DH. The Phillies have a 39 year old Ibanez who will be a FA. The Red Sox have Drew and Papi (DH) facing free agency, and have a left fielder who made Wells look like an All-Star. Those teams are not invincible, and do not have all their OF spots filled with better players. All three teams have lots of decisions to make. But that doesn’t mean another Wells trade is in the cards.
ok last post for me…
Vernon Wells succeeds more in a hitters ballpark.
besides a pitcher, what player WOULDN’T succeed more in a hitters ballpark??
Yanks, granderson-swisher-gardner heck even jones i’d rank ahead of wells
Sox-ellsbury, crawford, reddick/kalish
phillies- brown-victorino-pence.
“besides a pitcher, what player WOULDN’T succeed more in a hitters ballpark??”
Adrian Beltre hit better away from Fenway than he did at Fenway.
hmmm could be because of that huge green wall in left field..
oh and look at this beltre is a right handed hitter…
things make sense when you think about them petey
“besides a pitcher, what player WOULDN’T succeed more in a hitters ballpark??”
So your new answer is “right handers at Fenway”?
You really need to not contradict yourself, Lunchboxy
Umm no because for a right hander I wouldn’t consider fenway a hitters park.
“The Red Sox have Drew and Papi (DH) facing free agency, and have a left fielder who made Wells look like an All-Star”
lol
crawford – .255/.289/.405 – .304 wOBA
v. wells – .218/.248/.412 – .285 wOBA
wells is one of the only guys in the game that made crawford look not so bad. do you ever say anything true
I didn’t even attack that because i was hoping he meant something else.
Wells plays good defense at least. Hit him 9th as a defensive-minded OF and wait out the clock on his deal.
thats their only option.
I honestly thought I was hallucinating when I read about that trade for the first time.
should have trout in the minors for the year and bring him back up 2013 when hunter and abreu are gone
The Angels need to leave Trout in the minors until next year when Hunter is gone, then put Trumbo at DH/1B/OF because his defense is just awful. The Angels also need to forget about Morales and DFA his a$$. If you guys really think he’s coming back, I’m sorry to break you heart but Morales is still unable to run the bases. Unless you put Aybar behind the C so he can run for Morales, maybe he’ll will play in 2012. The Angels need to sign Prince Fielder. PERIOD
For all the talk in this thread about how bad Trumbo is on defense, UZR actually gave him a good score for this year.
Tender Martin a contract and then Yanks and Angels should do Martin(Mathis’s replacement) + Adam Warren + Heathcott for Bourjos.
Montero becomes C. Bourjos in CF. Gardner in LF. Granderson to RF. Swisher to DH. If any team can offer something decent for Swisher, take it and sign a DH for 1 year. Also, with that OF, R.I.P, fly balls.
Angels free up a spot in the OF, replace Mathis’s god awful bat and get some potential in Heathcott and Warren.
If the Angels were going to trade Bourjos it would be for a 3B, pitcher, or a better catcher than Martin IMO
I wonder if it would be possible to trade Mathis and Abreu to get some bullpen help. That way you have Wilson/Conger behind the plate, and an open DH spot for Morales/whoever.
Sign Reyes, a Closer, trade Aybar + decent prospect for K.Suzuki or a starting pitcher.
Beane doesn’t deal within the division, youd have to reverse-Napoli whoever you wanted from Oakland to get that to work.
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!! AYBAR IS 100x better than Reyes and 100mil cheaper. The Angels arent going to sign anyone to help bring a championship to Anaheim.
I think you would have to play the 3 kids – Trout, Trumbo, Broujouns (sp?) and rotate the other guys at DH and OF, until you could move one of those terrible contracts…
If I were them and David Wright is available, I’d jump at that or look at Amaris Ramirez to fill the gap at 3B. Then see if Yankees would move Soriano for one of those extra bats. There would be some $ and prospects but Yankees have a gluten of RP’s and Angels need to sure it up a little.
Then maybe look at Kuroda to help with the middle of the rotation on a 1-2 year deal. He might get more elsewhere, but wanted to stay in LA. So maybe he’d be willing to take less…
As an Angel fan, I’m hoping Morales comes back healthy. But, no one should assume that he will… he’s a power hitter from the left side, which means his broken leg is the one that generates the force that gives him that power. The type of injury he had is very difficult to overcome… and takes a long time to heal fully. If the rumors of weight issues carry any truth, that’d make things worse – especially in the field – too much pressure on that leg would not be a good thing. I see a lot of DH in his immediate future – if his leg can take it.
Meanwhile, give Trumbo’s D a break – first base is not his natural position, and he made tremendous strides on D as the season progressed. Trading that bat would be asinine. Sure, his OBP wasn’t great – but he was a rookie… and he led the team in HR’s and RBI’s.
Trading Burjous? Why would you want to do that? He’s your leadoff hitter of the future, his speed disrupts the other team’s D, and his value in the outfield is unsurpassed. Trade Trout? Not going to happen. He has the most speed on the team after Burjous, and he hits for power…
The Angels can go with a four man OF rotation – they’ve done it before. Trout can take the first day off, then play LF, CF, and RF and succeeding days. It’s just like how they handled it when Gary Matthews Jr. lost his starting job to Torii Hunter.
The problem is Abreu. His contract vesting messed things up. His bat has clearly slowed down, and he has become a barely adequate outfielder. He’ll be on the roster as DH insurance in case Morales can’t come back. If Morales is healthy, then Trout probably heads for the minors. Nothing against Abreu – he has been a valuable member of the team in the past – but if he struggles through mid-season, once Trout’s accrued time date passes, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Angels waive Abreu and call Trout up.
The one thing you do not want to do is trade any of the three kids (Trumbo, Burjous,and Trout) – as long as they keep improving, they’re the future of this team.
Bringing up Trout was a dumb move.
not necessarily angels needed offensive help and trout was playing great down in the minors plus their a win now team
As an Angel fan, I’m hoping Morales comes back healthy. But, no one should assume that he will… he’s a power hitter from the left side, which means his broken leg is the one that generates the force that gives him that power. The type of injury he had is very difficult to overcome… and takes a long time to heal fully. If the rumors of weight issues carry any truth, that’d make things worse – especially in the field – too much pressure on that leg would not be a good thing. I see a lot of DH in his immediate future – if his leg can take it.
Meanwhile, give Trumbo’s D a break – first base is not his natural position, and he made tremendous strides on D as the season progressed. Trading that bat would be asinine. Sure, his OBP wasn’t great – but he was a rookie… and he led the team in HR’s and RBI’s.
Trading Burjous? Why would you want to do that? He’s your leadoff hitter of the future, his speed disrupts the other team’s D, and his value in the outfield is unsurpassed. Trade Trout? Not going to happen. He has the most speed on the team after Burjous, and he hits for power…
The Angels can go with a four man OF rotation – they’ve done it before. Trout can take the first day off, then play LF, CF, and RF and succeeding days. It’s just like how they handled it when Gary Matthews Jr. lost his starting job to Torii Hunter.
The problem is Abreu. His contract vesting messed things up. His bat has clearly slowed down, and he has become a barely adequate outfielder. He’ll be on the roster as DH insurance in case Morales can’t come back. If Morales is healthy, then Trout probably heads for the minors. Nothing against Abreu – he has been a valuable member of the team in the past – but if he struggles through mid-season, once Trout’s accrued time date passes, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Angels waive Abreu and call Trout up.
The one thing you do not want to do is trade any of the three kids (Trumbo, Burjous,and Trout) – as long as they keep improving, they’re the future of this team.
I think people are too quick to throw Abreu under the bus. He had a bad year for Bobby Abreu (maybe it is age but I bet next year he bounces back) but even so his OBP was great, he was our best clutch hitter (best average with runners in scoring position), he still hit 30 doubles, wore pitchers out, and is a great clubhouse prescence. Wells, unfortunately, is the problem, but we are stuck with him and that albatross of a contract.)
So would you say Trading Bourjos is off-limits or is that realistic?