After being shut out by Tom Gorzelanny last night, the Giants rank second to last in the NL with 3.54 runs scored per game. "We're awful right now," manager Bruce Bochy told reporters last night. Pablo Sandoval, Andres Torres, and Mark DeRosa are currently on the disabled list. Aubrey Huff, Miguel Tejada, and Cody Ross have been terrible so far, while Buster Posey has failed to meet lofty expectations in the early going.
Chatter for the Giants to recall Brandon Belt is increasing, as he's killed the ball in nine games for the Fresno Grizzlies. CBS' Danny Knobler wondered this morning whether Belt can be the Posey of 2011, providing the team's offense with a jolt.
ESPN's Buster Olney speculated on another possibility this morning in his blog, a potential acquisition Giants fans inquire about every week in my chats. Mets shortstop Jose Reyes is off to a .309/.348/.439 start, similar to his career averages and a big upgrade over Tejada offensively and defensively. The Giants would have to accommodate Reyes' $11MM salary, $3.57MM of which will still be owed to him if he's acquired on July 31st. Also, the Giants "would have to give up a really, really good young player — the Mets presumably would ask for a top-of-the-line young pitcher," in Olney's opinion. Interesting side note: Olney guesses that Reyes "could be convinced to stay by a solid multi-year offer," rather than test free agency.
One factor determining the Mets' asking price for Reyes will be how many other teams are seriously in the mix for him. The Twins could make an offer, but only if they pull themselves up out of the AL Central gutter. The Athletics could use a boost at shortstop. The Brewers are a nice match, though their farm system is depleted.
The cost of renting a star position player has varied in recent years. A few examples:
- In July of 2009, the Cardinals acquired Matt Holliday and $1.5MM from the Athletics for Brett Wallace, Clayton Mortensen, and Shane Peterson. Prior to the '09 season, ESPN's Keith Law ranked Wallace 19th among all prospects, while Baseball Prospectus' Kevin Goldstein had him 37th.
- In July of 2008, the Angels acquired Mark Teixeira from the Braves for Casey Kotchman and Stephen Marek. Marek wasn't a top 100 prospect, but he ranked sixth among Angels prospects before that season according to Baseball America. BA ranked the Halos' farm system tenth in baseball. Kotchman was 25 at the time, coming off a strong '07 season. He was under team control through 2011 and owned a career line of .274/.337/.426. Prior to his time in the Majors, BA had ranked Kotchman among their top 22 prospects four separate times.
These aren't great comparables, since Wallace was a top position player prospect and Kotchman was a decently-regarded first baseman headed for his second arbitration year. Technically the Giants have a top position player prospect in Belt, who is universally considered among the top 25 prospects in the game. I can't picture the Giants considering trading Belt's career for a couple months of Reyes, however.
If the Mets do focus on pitching, as Olney suggests, they'd have to ask for Zack Wheeler. The righty was drafted sixth overall in '09 and is one of the 55 best prospects in the game on all lists.
At the big league level, the Giants have two established starters the Mets could try to acquire. One is Jonathan Sanchez, a solid lefty with a walk problem. He's under team control through 2012; how much value would his '12 season at a salary of $8MM or so be of to the Mets? Perhaps GM Sandy Alderson could flip Sanchez for longer-term players. The Giants also have southpaw Madison Bumgarner, who is more valuable than Belt and controlled through 2016. Like Belt, Bumgarner is way too much for Reyes.
The Giants do have the pieces to acquire Reyes, depending on how far they are willing to go. I don't think it would take much more than Wheeler, if the Giants make that sacrifice. Using Wheeler to get Reyes would at least allow the Giants to keep their big league rotation intact. Building a deal around Sanchez would be easier to stomach long-term, but would leave a pretty big hole in the team's rotation. And since Sanchez is only controlled through '12, the Giants might have to further dip into their stash of prospects to appease the Mets. Though the Giants' farm system is considered among the bottom ten in the game, they do have interesting prospects beyond Belt and Wheeler.
Photo courtesy of Icon SMI.
If Minaya were still at the helm, we’d make a stupid deal for Sanchez. While the Mets will have their payroll problems going forward, a large part of why I was so excited to have Alderson take over with this team is for this year when they are wheeling and dealing. The Mets will not be contending any time soon making Sanchez’s contract pointless, go get some nice young guys and get ready to contend in few years.
Why would we trade for a guy who is hitting free agency next year.
Because …..
1. He is a better lead off hitter than ANYONE on the Giants roster.
2. He’s about 30 years younger than Miguel Tejada.
3. He is the spark the Giants offense needs—-have you watched them?????
4. If you only have to give up prospects…….it’s a NO BRAINER!!!!!!
Sorry, I’m a Met fan referencing Sanchez.
Because… Posey, Pablo, Timmy, Cain, etc. where prospects at one time.
Sure they WERE………….but what about the other 125 players who went through the system…….and became NOTHING! Its a gamble to begin with, but when you are getting an All-Star talent, it favors the GIANTS! Pablo isn’t the best example either—2009 was it in my books…….he needs to get back to what got him here. And besides………….we don’t have a SS in the system………this guy is heading in to the PRIME YEARS of his career!!!! Trade for him—–SIGN him——-it’s a No-Brainer!!
Reyes should stay in NY!
What happened to Wilmer Flores?
While I’m not willing to give up on Flores sticking an SS yet all signs point to him moving to a corner position. Also, he’s a few years away, so banking on him living up to expectations as a reason to not re-sign Reyes would be a foolish move on the Mets’ part. If he were killing it in AAA it’d be a different story, but he’s 19 in high A ball.
If Minaya were still at the helm, we’d make a stupid deal for Sanchez. While the Mets will have their payroll problems going forward, a large part of why I was so excited to have Alderson take over with this team is for this year when they are wheeling and dealing. The Mets will not be contending any time soon making Sanchez’s contract pointless, go get some nice young guys and get ready to contend in few years.
P.S.-Sorry for double post-NoDoOvers is a different account.
no do overs
not sure if srs can no do overs.
It sounded funnier in my head.
So you posted again just for the “likes,” I presume? I approve.
What you said here was as dumb as the other account.
Whats the possibility of the Giants getting him during the series against the Mets???
zero. the mets would wait until july
Sanchez is not going anywhere, and I am a Padre fan.
Well yeah, as a Padre fan, Sanchez has to be firmly tattooed in your memory like Joe Morgan is in a Dodger fan’s recurring nightmare.
The Giants are not going to trade young starting pitchers or Belt. You can forget about that trade.
The Giants should consider trading Wheeler for Reyes. Look at the track record for trading/developing stating pitchers. The Giants, when they’ve decided to make a move, it’s worked out well.
Besides, the Giants have had many pitching prospects the last 10 years, and we have 4 excellent ones to show for it in the majors. But the Giants also moved pitchers like Ainsworth, Foppert, Williams, Vogelsong and Alderson and have yet to feel the pinch.
There will be another Wheeler coming up through the minors. Clayton Tanner could also be a chip.
Offer Wheeler and Burris and make a long-term deal happen. Reyes would hit a dozen triples a year in AT&T.
Homer.
dont forget lirano and nathan…in the perzinski trade…lol
how is Carlos Santana doing for the Dodgers??? Oh, wait the Dodgers traded him for Casey Blake.
Every team has bad trades in their history. The fact is that the Giants have done a good job of evaluating pitchers in recent years.
Blake has done a whole lot more then Aj did for the Giants…so i would not exactly call that a bad trade till santana puts up All-Star numbers like lirano and nathan.
besides the unexpected no-hitter, Liriano had a 9+era to start the season. he had 1 decent year prior to that with an injury ridden career in between. Joe Nathan has been solid, but I wouldn’t put him in the Hall just yet.
his first year was decent, last year was decent. no hitters pretty good – big time velo, just a few control issues for an otherwise bonafide no. 2 starter.
Liriano isn’t that good. Yes, yes he threw a no hitter but he also got extremely lucky w/ 2 strikeouts and 8 walks? He’s also only had one good year in ’06. Nathan..well, we have the Beard and he was traded in ’04 anyway. ’04-’08 we sucked anyways, and a closer/reliever wouldn’t have made a difference lol
oh and hey, Nathan is injured too
the mets would be fools to trade reyes for like the 15th best pitching prospect in baseball…wheeler was ranked lower on most prospect list than mejia – the mets top pitching prospect who is about to have TJS…wheeler is not good enough to be a centerpiece…thats whats so ridiculous about this article…the giants dont have a single prospect that is good enough to bring back reyes unless u bunch them together…the mets can get a much better prospect from a team like the rays…
furthermore why would the mets even be interested in belt when they have 1b locked up w/ ike davis – who really has some of the best numbers of any 1b so far this year, is younger than belt, plays far superior defense, and has the power to be a 30-40 hr threat, all while hitting upwards towards 300? not saying belt might not be better but its not a position of need at all
really the only thing the mets should be willing to deal reyes to the giants for is madison bumgarner (or buster posey haha) which i dont think the giants do…i wouldnt even take cain if i were the mets…
if the mets are really going to trade reyes (which im not convinced they are considering they have SO MUCH money coming off the books next season that they could easily afford the slight hike in his annual $ (he already makes 11 mil and the mets have about 50 or so coming off outside of his contract) they would be fools to do so for a centerpiece like wheeler, who isnt even in the same realm of talent as guys like tim or madison
“is younger than Belt” – incorrect
“plays far superior defense” – ??
Agree that Davis is a nice young player and it’s not a position of need for the Mets, but seems like some of your info on Brandon Belt is wrong.
Ike is a year and a month older than Belt – but hes an already proven major leaguer so if the Mets are getting anyone it’d likely be Wheeler + someone.
I realize that Jose Reyes is a stud shortstop when he’s healthy… again, when he’s healthy. You’re off your rocker if you think Reyes is worth a Madison Bumgarner type pitcher when his salary expires after this season and the Mets have no assurances of re-signing him. Maybe your argument makes sense if Reyes was locked up at a decent value for the next 5 years, but anyone who trades for him would be taking a huge risk in losing what they pay for in the rental and getting no long term Reyes deal in return. Wheeler is about as best as they can hope for barring any sign-and-trade long term deal for Jose already being in place.
Wonder where my comment slamming this went? Sure hope I wasn’t silenced.
I wish the Reds would get him. How much would it take?
Leake and Bailey
and at that price, Reyes isn’t worth it
For Leake, that’d be a “steal”
Just think of all the shopping Leake could do in NY.
Reyes isn’t that much of an upgrade over Janish to warrant the cost in prospects and pitchers it would take. Reds are better off shoring up the BP for alot less, and moving Alonso to LF in place of Gomes.
In the spirit of full disclosure, I’m a Mets fan, so I’m probably a little biased…but you must be out of your mind if you think Janish and Reyes are in the same universe. Janish has been worth about 1 WAR (FG) per year over his admittedly short career, while Reyes is over 3.5 per year in 7+ injury plagued years. Oh, and Reyes is 8 months younger. I understand that you might not be excited about potentially paying a hefty price for a rental, but Reyes is a significant upgrade over Janish.
until Reyes gets injured, which always happens. Janish is a 0.8 WAR player already this season with exceptional defense and doubles power. Janish doesn’t have big numbers in previous years because he wasn’t getting the AB’s behind Orlando Cabrera and company. Now that the Reds FO got their heads out of their collective butts and gave Janish the job, he’s taken the bull by the horns. Like I said “Reyes isn’t that much of an upgrade over Janish to warrant the cost in prospects and pitchers it would take.” It makes alot of sense when you read the whole sentence.
Janish over 1 month compared to Reyes over years…c’mon now. Janish TOPS OUT at 25 doubles. Reyes brings so much more to the table
really…it always happens? did it happen in 05? 06?07?08?
the REASON reyes missed so much time last season, actually had very little to do w/ injury…he had a minor oblique strain at one point, which is actually very common
however he missed the beg of the season due to a thyroid condition…not an injury
he has had one major injury, causing him to miss one season, over his entire career in the majors (though he had some nagging leg injuries in the minors)…you are making him sound like hes made of glass
the fact remains…there are only 2 ss in all of baseball that are more talented than reyes, and both are locked up to mega deals…their names are tulo and hanley….outside of that, no one is even in the same league as reyes as an impact player
can you make a case that its not worth it to have one of the best players at the position bc of cost? sure, i guess…but it doesnt change the fact that hes the 3rd best ss in baseball, and THE best ss that any team has a slim hope of actually bringing into their team
Whether it’s a thyroid condition or a legitimate injury, the guy ALWAYS seems to be on the shelf. I dont care what the situation is, if the player isnt on the field for ANY health reason then he’s an inherent risk. Couple that with the fact that he’s a RENTAL player who could very well not get re-signed and you must dramatically reduce his trade value. Mets fans need a heavy dose of reality of here… You’re not getting a ton of value for Reyes.
Maybe it “seems” to you like he’s always injured, but Reyes is 25th among all MLB players in plate appearances for 2005-11. Only in 2009 did he have less than 600. So apparently he’s found the time to play all those games somehow.
Also, whoever trades for Reyes will get draft picks if he walks at the end of the year, so you’re not JUST getting a couple months of play.
Leaving out his 09 season (in which he did have a serious injury) Reyes has averaged just over 153 games per year since 2005.
But by all means, don’t let silly things like facts cloud your judgment.
you’re insane if you think Janish and Reyes are even close to the same level. It’s like not even close AT ALL.
I think that I speak for all A’s fans when I say this, Jose Reyes to the A’s will not happen because he is not a big enough upgrade over Pennington to justify giving up 3-5 really good prospects for half a year of Reyes. David Wright on the other hand is more than a big enough upgrade over Kouz to justify giving up 3-5 really good prospects in exchange for at least 2.5 years of Wright.
3-5 really good prospects for reyes…
but 3-5 really good prospects for 2.5 years of wright..
hmmmm
What’s that supposed to mean?
it means for some reason you think the same grouping of prospects that it will take to get reyes will get Wright as well..
I’m just saying in general it will take that amount of prospects. Of course Wright is going to command a better return. I never said that Reyes and Wright will command the same type of package.
You kind of did, though.
Quote me then. Where did I say that? I only specified numbers not package types.
you did by not differentiating the package of prospects it would take to get Wright/Reyes. “3-5 really good prospects for half a year of Reyes”….”3-5 really good prospects in exchange for at least 2.5 years of Wright”.
No biggie, people are just trying to clarify what you meant. Because you are only using numbers not types, you are only implying that the same numbers would get the same player
That’s exactly what I’m saying but people are trying to imply that I said 2 A level prospects and 2-3 B/C level prospects or something. That would be wrong and I know that Wright is going to command a higher package which is why I don’t understand why lunchbox and bluduke are shoving my words down my throat for just specifying numbers of really good prospects that would have to change hands. And we all know that those would be the number of prospects that would have to be involved in a trade to get a player of Jose Reyes or David Wright’s caliber.
The mets aren’t going to get a huge package for a few month’s rental of a guy with a big injury history. You’ll get 1 good prospect and a few throw-ins. That’s it. You aren’t trading baseball cards here, you’re trading players with contracts. Skill level isn’t the only factor in a trade. You also have to consider contracts. Your getting possibly +5 years of team control of a top prospect over a couple months of having Reyes.
That’s 5 years vs a few months. You really think a few months of Reyes is worth more than that?
OK you got me there but knowing the caliber that people put Jose Reyes in, I would not be surprised if it was still a pretty substantial package for a guy with an injury history especially since he is doing well this year and has been playing pretty well since the end of ’09.
The Mets will trade David Wright the same day the Rockies trade Tulo.
oh yeah like the mets want another solid lefty with a walk problem! I could live with the mets trading reyes for belt but i’d love for jose to stay. belt can play the corner outfield positions as well as first so he can play right if they trade beltran. could anyone see jose and beltran for belt and tejada?
Why would the Mets want the Giants Tejada when they already have their own Tejada?
the giants won’t trade Belt for Reyes.
and the Mets won’t want him. Just like the Giants need Reyes the Mets don’t need Belt.
” I could live with the mets trading reyes for belt ”
lol. I bet you could
LOL. Let’s make something clear: Belt is a prospect. Reyes is an All-Star. ‘Nuff said.
a really good young arm or a few solid good young arms
As a Metropolitans fan, I’m more concerned as to who would replace Reyes at short for the long term if he goes. I would love to keep Reyes as he is a switch hitting lead off man with excellent speed. I can’t see how Ching-Lung Hu or Ruben Tejada filling his shoes easily. Furthermore, I’m not sure if the Giants can afford Reyes’ potentially large salary given the boatload of cash the team will have to spend on Lincecum in the near future. And if I were the Mets GM, I’d try to trade him to an American League team in the hopes Reyes is never used against the Mets.
Phillies fans love Jose Reyes.
This is the correct answer. Talent at shortstop doesn’t grown on trees, which is why everyone covets Reyes so much in the first place. He’s not old, and the Mets can certainly contend before he becomes old. The best scenario is Wright and Reyes being Mets for their entire careers and a proper team being built around them. Trading them away for prospects is retarded. Why trade one in a million talent for the unknown? No sane person would make that choice.
Depending on the outlook, perhaps this is correct. My perception, however, is that the Mets don’t have the necessary pieces coming up through the farm system to contend before Reyes’ speed declines (my guess is 3 years before he moves to 2B and is hitting infront of the pitcher). I know there’s a lot of money coming off the books with Beltran and KRod going, but there are too many holes to fill without help from the minors. Add in that the ownership situation is not exactly stable (although it’s not as precarious as the Dodgers, certainly), the team may want to reload with talent.
If I’m the Mets, I listen to offers for every player, no exceptions, and accept offers only if I get multiple overpays. If you’re going to blow up a team and rebuild, do it right. Wright, Bay, Reyes, Beltran, and KRod should be able to land at least 3 blue chip prospects and 3 solid prospects (plus some fringe guys) to add to the small core that the Mets have in the minors/active roster. Combined with their (likely) high draft picks in the coming years and money coming off the books (i.e. money to sign big FA), the Mets could shoot to be relevant by 2014 and have a ballclub that (if rebuilt correctly and with proper scouting of the talent they’d be receiving in the trades) could contend the division if not the league for a decade. Timed properly with the aging roster of the Phillies, the Mets would certainly be wise to consider their options.
I’ll be forthright and admit I’m a Mets fan, but I think that a lot of the criticism of the Mets and their farm is unwarranted. The Mets are not a team that’s going to compete for a playoff spot right now, but they’re not as bad as their record either. The holes that are on that team are pitching – both starting and relief. The starting problem is more the factor of guys failing to play up to expectations or being hurt rather than being bad. The bullpen is a joke, I’ll give you that. Lineup-wise, Angel Pagan is hurt and having a bad year but was arguably the MVP last year. 2nd Base is a “hole” but Murphy is holding his own. Thole and Ike are young yet still passable major leaguers. The rest is guys who are the same ones we’re talking about – Beltran, Wright, Reyes – not producing in key spots. There are plenty of prospects – unfortunately Mejia’s about to get TJ surgery, but that could happen to any of these guys if the Mets make a trade.
Long story short, they need to keep Reyes and Wright, trade KRod and Beltran for whatever they can get, draft well, pay over slot, make some good FA decisions. This is a team that will get better over the course of this year, and the next couple of years as well, and will get some financial stability with new owners’ money coming in. There’s no need to blow it up so drastically at this point.
For Reyes to have that offensive and defensive ability at shortstop it is a luxury that many teams do not enjoy, just peruse the list of players playing shortstop in the major leagues and tell me how having Reyes isn’t have a deceisive advantage over most of your opponents.
If Reyes leaves the Mets, Citi Field will be empty
“If Wright leaves the Mets, Citi Field will be more empty”
Fixed it.
I don’t hear people chanting “Da-vid, Da-vid, Daviddavid… Daaaav-id… Daaaavid”
Yeah too bad David David David David and Olé Olé Olé Olé sound nothing alike.
Popularity is subjective. You like David Wright more. That’s fine. I don’t want to get rid of either of them but I recognize that Reyes would be the more difficult player to replace because his position is harder to fill with positive offense.
Harder yes, but not that much harder. theres still only a handful of really good third basemen. yeah theres only 3 good shortstops now but theres only like 5 or 6 really good third basemen. Longoria, Zimmerman, and Wright are the 3 without a doubt third basemen. You have Youk who’s position is third now but wasn’t always we’ll see what happens there. A-Rod is gonna be a DH soon, Beltre is not really that good offensively except in a walk year, Aramis Ramirez sucks now, Sandoval can’t get slim, Alvarez may get good one day. All in all the situations are similar it’s amazing that the Mets had 3rd and Short filled by stars for so long. It’s spoiled Mets fans e
Spoiled Mets fans? Are you serious? You can’t be….Yes we have been spoiled by 1 post season appearance in the past decade. We have been spoiled by a collapse in ’07 and then a bullpen that blew 40+ saves in ’08. We have been spoiled by finishing below .500 the past two years. We have been spoiled by having our cross town rivals do everything that they do, and now the team 90 minutes down the turnpike kicking the crap out of us the past 4 years.
Spoiled we certainly are.
I don’t want David or Jose traded…..ever…..but to say we are spoiled is certainly not correct, sir.
No i meant we’ve been spoiled by not having to deal with the lack of star SS and 3B players out there. We’ve sucked I know especially in pitching. Most teams do not have the LUXURY that is jose reyes and david wright. They make up for the lack of star power there with star starters, star first basemen, star right fielders, star left fielders, stars in positions more easily filled. We had our shot when we had our star center fielder, SS, and thirdbaseman. Where we didn’t have a star left fielder, right fielder, second baseman, catcher, or legitimate undisputed ace. That was 2006. After that we got sad 2007s and 2008s with the same line up almost. And when our 2009 and 2010s had injured star centerfielder and SS we finished below 500. I’m just saying we can get that production in other positions. Face it even with Reyes we’re not a great team cause we’ve got holes in starting pitching, second base, right field, left field, center field, catcher, relief pitching. We’re not one reyes away from a championship.
Ahh touche, my apologies.
I agree that just keeping Reyes won’t make us contenders, but we will certainly be contending while he is still young (only 27 now). But don’t forget all the money that’s coming off the books this year, the young guys moving through the system, and Sandy’s better approach at stock piling depth than Omar.
I think this situation fits the Mets perfectly since they are a big market team. We are not one piece away from contention, but with the right combination of moves I see positive growth and trends for the 2013 season which includes keeping Reyes.
How has Posey underperformed in the early going?
All projection systems had him higher than .266/.340/.415, not that that is bad for a catcher.
the fact that he is batting .266 batting third for them…every giants fan i kno was talking mvp at the beginning of the year…he was just over hyped in his sophomore year thats why he is so called underperforming.
So does that mean Pujols and Hanley were overhyped too because of their slow starts? I didn’t know rough aprils meant you got praise you didn’t deserve. Teixeria might have something to say about that from his usual season breakdown
“So does that mean Pujols and Hanley were overhyped too because of their slow starts?”
Quite possibly, yes. But likely, no. You’re comparing a 2nd year player to two, well established superstars, so it’s not quite the same. Posey is a star, but he’s not one of the best 5 players in the league…
I was thinking about his comparisons more to other catchers as opposed to the league as a whole. Obviously he isn’t as good as Pujols or Hanley yet, but I still think he can easily bounce back and be the best catcher in the NL come September, although McCann might have something to say about that. I was more chastising his post as an “I told you so” about Posey
i didnt mean my post as an i told you so…i explained why it is stated as underperformance…posey is a good player…he just isnt at the point yet to where is hype is…dosent mean he wont have a good season or career.
I took “so called underperforming” to mean you thought last year was a fluke and so far this year was what his true talent level was. No one in their right mind could have expected an MVP year from Posey this season, but I guess plenty of fans aren’t reasonable at times. I guess I read your post with the wrong tone
Wait wait wait , you mean Cody Ross and his career .321 OBP is not the second coming? Despite being hot for all of 3 weeks last year?
I will never understand logic!
I’m not trying to be a hater on the Giants but I agree. The amount of ridiculous luck they got last year was amazing. Aubrey Huff put up a 6 War season for the first time in his career, after putting up negative WAR the year before. Andres Torres had a monster year come out of seemingly nowhere. Is he a late bloomer? Maybe, but more likely it was a fluke. Cody Ross NLCS MVP? This team had a LOT of stuff go right last year and to expect everything to fall back into place a second time, they are betting on the wrong horse
I’m a huge Giant fan and I have to agree….last year was a perfect storm. Not only because of Ross, Huff and Torres playing like they probably will never play again – but Bochy (who is a decent manager) guessed right almost every time in the playoffs. It was uncanny – but that’s probably what you need to go all the way (that and no major injuries – and a rookie like Bumgardner who played way over his head in the playoffs – another uncanny decision by management).
It takes luck, and the Giants had it. That’s why it is so hard to repeat.
In the end, this game is a lot about luck, good and bad. In any given year, you either get breaks or you don’t. The Giants got them big-time last season. I’m not begrudging them that by any means. Nobody goes all the way without them.
now will you please explain that to white sox fans!?!
For every lucky thing that happened to the Giants last year, there is an unlucky thing that occurred as well. The opening day outfield of DeRosa, Rowand, and Bowker was a complete failure. Sandoval was bad. Molina sucked. Lincecum had the worst month of his career. Todd Wellemeyer was awful. Renteria was hurt for a good portion of the year, same with Freddy Sanchez. Jose Guillen was a failed experiment.
The moves the Giants made worked out, they created their own luck. They made smart, low risk, high reward signings and trades. Santiago Casilla, Andres Torres, Ramon Ramirez, Javier Lopez, Pat Burrell, Cody Ross, even Chris Ray and Guillermo Mota were somewhat effective.
Did the Giants get lucky? Probably, but world class pitching can do that.
let’s not call it “LUCK”. The Giant’s got amazingly hot down the stretch, similar to the 2006 Cardinals, 2003 Marlins, etc etc.
It’s a game of averages, and they slumped awful/horribly in August, which means they were bound to be very hot in September+. A career .275 hitter who goes .175 in April means he will probably hit around .375 in May — that isn’t “luck” in May, it’s averages everybody
So, you get to plan when you’re hot and when you’re not? Why don’t other teams think of that…
Zack Wheeler and a few lesser players like perhaps Schierholtz might make sense. The Rays could possibly also make sense for a rental as well. They love draft picks and Reyes is likely to get them two.
This can be easily re-titled as “One Third of MLB and Jose Reyes”.
I like Reyes but wouldn’t trade Wheeler or Belt for a few months of him on the team. It’s not like the Giants NEED to win it all this season. Having just won the WS. Season tickets are sold out and single game tickets are heavily sold too.
Giants are 2nd out of 16 NL teams in attendance and they’ve played only 9 home games. While having played 19 away games, most of any team.
huh???
why do you care so much about attendance? shouldn’t you, as a fan, be more concerned with winning?
DUH! Of course I want my team to win. And it’s hard to watch their offense right now.
I’m pointing out that there is less motivation for Sabean and the Giants front office to go all in this season having a WS ring and sold out home games.
says who?
The fact that both our GM and manager were getting booed and ridiculed non stop and their jobs were on the line as recently as 2009, combined with now that winning they have 100% job security means the pressure is off big time. This isn’t a sacrifice the future to win now season
If your front office is less motivated to win because they won last year, then you should be hoping for a new font office.
that isn’t what they are saying. they are saying that because they have won the world series now there isn’t as much pressure on the front office to make risky moves because their jobs are no longer on the line.
The Giants may need to make a deal sooner rather than later for Reyes. The Dodgers and Rockies are legit.
SF’s whole team outperformed offensively last year and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Ross and Burrell play their way into being DFA’ed by the end of June. Huff is going to disappoint this year and Kung-Fu’s power will probably be out this year thanks the wrist injury (usually takes 12-18 months after a break there for power to fully return).
Actually, Sandoval, Timmy and Rowand underperformed.
The dodgers are only legit as long as Ethier and Kemp bat upwards of .370 and carry that team like no other. If they even start to go back close to their career norms, the dodgers start falling like a rock
I wouldn’t give up any major prospects for a rental player. If Reyes was willing to sign an extension, I’d give up Wheeler. But rather do a Culberson + package.
I’ll bet you’d rather not give up your actual good prospects for a great ballplayer. Unfortunately, Reyes will cost you actual good prospects.
I think it’s a horrible idea to call up Belt. But that’s only because I live in Fresno and won’t be able to drive down the street to watch him play anymore.
The Giants strength came from the pitching. If the offense scores 3 runs, the team wins. Lately, they haven’t been able to score event three runs.
It wasn’t luck that the Giants won. You claim Huff never did anything like this but his 26 HR were his 4th highest total of his career and his 86 RBI his 5th highest. In Ross you had a guy who didn’t get on base, but had a history of getting hot and hitting home runs in bunches. Torres saw his OPS drop from ’09 to ’10.
The team was built to rely on the starting pitching and that’s what it did. Sabean locked down the bullpen with key acquisitions in July and there was no room for error for opposing pitchers.
but the criticisms come from the fact that, okay you got lucky last year things went well, celebrate get drunk all that. However, going in to this season, almost expecting guys like Ross and Huff to continue to do was an error.
I think I speak for all Mets fans when I say Reyes is not going to be traded. This is New York, we dont trade good players, we pay them. Trading Reyes will hurt the team on many aspects, leadoff man, SS and attendence. The Wilpons are selling a portion of the team to new buyers, those guys wont invest if they know Reyes will be gone. All this trade talk id propoganda and kicking the Mets while they are down. He will be resigned as soon as the new buyers are officially partial owners…6 yrs 90 mil
atleast you’re optimistic
I agree. The Mets are in desperate need of some good PR right now and trading Reyes would kill any goodwill that has come out of replacing Jerry/Omar and it would REALLY alienate the fans. I think there’s a far better chance that Reyes signs an extension mid-year than be traded.
I honestly don’t see Reyes going anywhere. Who plays short for the Mets? Ruben Tejada? Who leads off? Pagan? Is he a 4th OF or legit? The Mets have their holes, this is true, but they also have some good young prospects moving up in the system, and an entire infield under the age of 28. Next year we will (potentially) need CF, RF, 2B, and Pitching.
I see Pelfrey/Beltran/Bay/Krod being moved before Reyes. Keep in mind the boatload of money the Mets have coming off the books next year. They are not too far off from contending no matter how fashionable it is for the national media to take pot shots at them. Again, I’m not blind and can certainly see the problems with this team as clear as day, but to ship Reyes off for a few prospects while creating a hole at SS and lead off doesn’t make sense. Plus Sandy himself has said that he is sensitive to fan input.
The concerns that everyone talks about, his speed, his health, etc., which lowers his trade value also works the other way and can lower his FA value. Reyes has said he loves NYC, he lives out on the island, and loves the Mets. Now obviously he wouldnt say anything to the contrary, but he has said this many many times and David Wright has even been quoted as saying he doesnt want to see Reyes leave. All of these things do add up….
You’re kidding right? Not that far away from contending? I hate to break it to you, but a lot has actually gone OK for the Mets this year. Dickey hasn’t fallen apart. Young has been really good. Niese gave them a few quality starts. Reyes has been great. Ike has been a monster. Harris was OK filling in for Bay. Beato has been dominant. KROD has only blown one save, and yet, they are terrible. Stop thinking that this is a good team and it’s just not living up to its potential. Lord knows what Santana will be after this surgery. He was barely hitting the upper 80s last season. In short, this team has to accept that it isn’t good. Wright has too many down months. They have zero pitching. They play bad defense. They have low baseball IQ. They need to move on and completely rebuild. I predict that the next time the Mets have a winning team, it won’t have more than 8 guys from this roster on it.
Also, since you mentioned it, where are these prospects? And who in their right mind would trade for Jason Bay? I would trade Bay for a Zack Wheeler bobble head.
When did I say I thought the Mets were good and just “not living up to their expectations?” Hell this IS the expectations for the Mets….crap! I clearly stated I know the team has its flaws and is not going anywhere right now. And that “prediction” is really going out on a limb there pal, considering half the 25 man roster is different from last year…
And no, I’m not kidding and they are not that far away from contending. The division isn’t static, who knows what will happen to the phils/braves/nats/marlins/mets as this and subsequent years go by. Trades, FA signings, injuries, etc all play a role. However, in my eyes 2013/2014 is a feasible goal for contention with this team, and that really isnt THAT FAR AWAY. All of the positives you mentioned, plus the young talent the mets have in the minors (that could progress to the majors or be used as trade bait), the large sum of money coming off the books the next two years, new minority investor to infuse cash, a MUCH better FO to manage the day to day operations. I’m not delusional, nor am I kidding myself as to the abilities of the team as currently constructed, but I don’t need to be one of the always negative ridiculous mets fans that just whine and complain all the time. I am a diehard fan, but what the hell is the point of being a fan of something in an ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY if you can’t look to the positive and try to have fun while doing so?
Its not like the Mets are the same team as they put out there in the mid to late 70’s that had no where to go, there is growth potential here and there are good pieces to grow around. So yes, I stand by my statement that they are not far from contending, and no I am not kidding Chico.
I’m not whining and complaining, but Mets fans have a right to whine and complain. As you said, it’s the entertainment industry and they aren’t very entertaining. You’re right, the division isn’t static, but when you say something like all the Mets need is a 2B, a CF . . . and “Pitching,” you sound ridiculous. “Pitching” means like five or six new quality arms. That isn’t easy to come by. And while teams like Atlanta have guys like Freddie Freeman, Jayson Heyward, Julio Teharan, and the Marlins have Stanton, Johnson, and Morrison, the Nats have Strasburg, Harper, and Espinosa, the Mets are banking on FMART to get over his strained uterus and Pelfrey to somehow become a pitcher in his 6th year in the big leagues. The team is fundamentally flawed and they don’t have many (or any) projectable players in the AA or AAA. So, for this team to get better, they have to make the most of their assets and that means making tough choices on guys like Reyes and Wright, who have value, but aren’t reliable enough to build around. Don’t get me wrong, I like them both, but neither of them is doing them any good and this team is not going to be able to rebuild through free agency alone. The best thing that they can do is have a come to jesus moment and maximize the value of their assets while they can.
Bay, KROD, Perez, Castillo . . . were all the result of management thinking they just needed a few pieces in order to compete. It’s not true. They need to revamp the entire team.
So you’re going to harp on semantics? Yes, we need “pitching” as in a new rotation and new bullpen all of which are not easy to come by. However I didn’t say that they were going to get all of that in one shot. I see a time frame of 2-3 years before they are in CONTENTION. Not winning the division, not even the wild card, but making a legit run at making the post season. 2 – 3 years is not that far away in baseball terms and making improvements to the team that will start to pay dividends. Would you have rather me say “we will need a new CF, LF, RF, 2B, 5 SPs, and a back end of the bullpen” would that have put you at ease? We aren’t one magic move away which is the exact reason behind my initial post. But to say the entire team needs to be scrapped makes you sound ridiculous.
So trade Reyes, and then what? We won’t get anything close to equal value for him, especially for a few month rental and now we’ve created yet another hole to fill and potentially a longer time frame to do it. If anything, the Mets should consider trading Wright as he’s signed to a decent contract for the next 2.5 years. Wright will net you the talent you need.
OK, so keep Reyes and he leaves as a free agent, and then what? Take the two picks? How are you better off? Reyes is worth more to a team that can actually win a division or a world series right now, next year, or the year after. If the Mets aren’t going to be a “contender” until 2013, then they are paying for his prime years at market rate for absolutely no reason. And yes, when you say that they need a CF, RF, LF, 2B, and 5 SPs and a back end of the bullpen, you are closer to the truth. You would need to add in C to make it more appropriate. It also highlights the fact that they are really quite a ways off from being a contender.
Their best prospects are in A ball and really young. Even if Puello and Flores pan out, they won’t be legitimate contributors for another three years or so. They can’t plug all their holes by free agency, and they are locked into bad contracts for Santana and Bay. If this team is going to be bad for the next few years, fine, I don’t care if it’s terrible, as long as they are building toward something respectable. But hanging on to the few pieces that they have in the hopes that someone in their minor league system ends up better than they thought. Or in the hopes that they can sign a few lottery ticket types that might contribute in order to win 75 – 80 games is dumb.
And, when they trade Reyes, they will get equal value. Whatever they get will be what Reyes is worth at that point. He’s going to get a big contract somewhere, and history tends to show that he probably won’t live up to it. There is no need to throw money at him just because he came up through the Mets system. Next year, when he’s back to being a somewhat injury prone lunkhead with a .770 OPS, and making $18M, fans will be irate. Then in four years, when he has missed half the season with leg injuries and he’s not quite the base stealer that he was, but he’s still making $18M for another two years, you’ll be looking to match up bad contracts to get rid of him. And you’ll still have a mediocre team.
please use paragraphs so people can read your posts
Let me ask you this, how does trading Reyes for ONE Possibly-ML-Ready pitcher or position player do anything to accomplish that? If they were talking about trading Reyes for a boat-load of ML-Ready talent, I could be on board with it. But how does trading an all-star for anything less than a guaranteed superstar even net you anything? You are offering up Miss Cleo prophecies about his future, but then criticizing positive projections about some of the Mets’ other players -I understand Mets fans can be a little over-hyping of their farm system, but your undervaluing of it, as well as Reyes’ future is equally as asinine.
OK, so who are the valuable players in the minors? Duda? Evans? Valdespin? Nieunheiws? FMART? Havens? Lutz? Which of those guys, of the ones that can even stay remotely healthy, do you see as a contributor? If you’re going to say Tejada . . . problem solved. The Mets do have some talent in St. Lucie and in Savannah, but don’t kid yourself, Buffalo and Binghamton are pretty barren. I can see Capt. Kirk becoming a solid major league regular, but nothing to get too excited about. As for pitching, the cupboard is bare. Utterly, completely, bare. Who do you think is going to be a major league starter? Cohoon? Holt? Maybe you think Misch is going to recapture the promise of his youth. Wheeler would immediately be the best pitching prospect in the Mets system.
I don’t get how anyone can sit here and advocate paying Reyes close to $40M over two years to be on teams that we know are going to be bad, or at best mediocre in the off chance that by the time three years have gone by, the Mets will have drafted so well, that Reyes can contribute. By the way, it’s not as though him resigning with the Mets is a sure thing. Maybe he wants to win before he’s thirty. Did you ever think of that? The Mets aren’t exactly in the driver’s seat when it comes to providing a chance to win. So, if they are willing to blow everyone else out of the water for him, fine, keep him. But I don’t think that they are resigning him. I don’t think that he’s a good investment long term. And no way would I sign him passed his age 31/32 season. The only reason to sign him to a huge deal is if you think he can help immediately. Players like Reyes don’t age well. So, yes, if they can get something for him, instead of letting him walk for nothing. I say do it.
Would the Mets be interested in Dan Runzler for Reyes? He hasn’t been road-tested much for starter capability but the Giants did discuss moving him into the rotation during Spring Training.
Runzler for Reyes? Homer much for your Giants? What a joke.
Runzler = Alex Hinshaw = Scott Munter.
I’m a Giants fan
I would love it if the Pirates signed him in the offseason
What would they do with Ronnie Cedeno???
sell him to a japanese team?
They’re pretty smart in Japan. I don’t think they’d be interested…
I would like to see the Reds make a run at Reyes. It would solidify the lead off position they desperately need.
No way I trade Wheeler for Reyes. He’s the only legit starter in the entire farm system and unless the Giants are seeing Alderson type problems, I can’t see him going. I’d consider Surcamp and Tanner, and throw in Culberson or equal prospect.
Regardless, I think you don’t see anything for at least another month anyway.
idk Eric Surkamp is pretty legit
Giants should swap Zito for Alfonso Soriano. The money is nearly the same $54 mil for Soriano 2012-14 and $46 mil for Zito (incl buyout) for 2012-2013. The Cubs could also chip in 4 mil to even out the cash. The Giants would lose nothing and get a streaky hitter who is currently killing it (11 HRs). Then the Cubs could play Colvin everyday and get similar production and slot Zito into the back-end of the rotation until Wells/Cashner are back. It’s not like Zito could be much worse than James Russell (8.15 ERA) or Casey Coleman (7.36 ERA).
I could see the Giants going after Scutaro more than Reyes.
or reunite F. Sanchez with Jack Wilson potentially, if Seattle eats a good chunk of money
I might convert to a Giants’ fan if this were ever to happen.
Not sure how likely it is to happen, but couldn’t hurt us much. Get the M’s to either eat most of his salary or take on a salary dump from us, and maybe moving to a winner and teaming back up with Sanchez could get that bat back to its Pitt days. Wilson circa 2006 would be a big upgrade for us at SS
wilson for zito? lol
haha I was thinking more like DeRosa, but I like your trade better
runzler has much better control than either of those guys. But yeah, that isn’t enough for Reyes.
Mets fan here. I think Wheeler, plus maybe a guy like Neal or a solid relief arm would be a fair offer for two months of Reyes. I don’t want to see him go, but I also don’t want to see them sign him to a contract at market prices. I could stomach 5 years $80-$85, but I think he’ll do better than that, and I don’t want any part of him after his age 31/32 season. It would be a big enough risk as it is.
Giants fans are really underrating Zack Wheeler here. Not only is he our best pitching prospect, he is probably one of the top 15-20 pitching prospects in the game.
I would be willing to trade multiple B- prospects, that is all. If that isn’t enough, so be it.
Who Giants fans are REALLY underrating is Jose Reyes. If multiple B-level prospects is what you’re offering, than no thanks and so be it.
Wheeler was ranked 55 in the baseball america top 100. I would understand if the Giants don’t want to part with him, but if they aren’t willing to give the Mets anything more than a B- prospect, I would take my chances with the two draft picks he would bring if he leaves as a free agent.
The Mets need a second baseman, how about Culberson.
Maybe as a throw in. The Giants will have to beat the relative value of two first round picks. Culberson doesn’t meet that criteria. Also, he’s a terrible OBP guy, so this front office probably won’t even look at him.
Yeah the Mets will want Bumgarner or Wheeler. They need pitching and their prospect needs TJ surgery, so they might be open to the trade. But I think they will get rid of Beltran alot easier.
Why rent Reyes for 3 or 4 months and trade a high ranking prospect–teams are doing the Mets a favor by taking his salary. It would have to be a sign and trade for a top level prospect.
Wheeler is a good prospect, but he’s not “top level.” A top 55 or so prospect is about right to get an all star type player at the deadline. If they can’t beat the value of two first round picks, it’s not worth the trade. I would rather take my chances in the draft than take a guy that looks like he projects as a utility infielder. The Mets don’t need to shed his salary.
Draft pick compensation is likely going away after the draft this season.
not going away, changed
No, they’re not. You don’t want to pay the price for one of the top three shortstops in baseball? Fine, the Mets can always trade him to L.A. or San Diego.
ok lets get rid of Reyes and Beltran and look at Wright.
Reyes to Giants for Surkamp, Culberson, Marte and Verdugo. You can keep Wheeler.
Beltran and 5.5 Million dollars to Tigers for Furbush and Dirks
A Wright trade would be too hard to come up with. Similar to when Texeira was traded for 1.5 years, I have no idea the kind of haul. Something like a Rubby De La Rosa, Dee Gordon, Magill and Akins? Maybe more. Casey Blake is getting up there and Wright is somewhat cost controlled.
With the mets there are only 2 postions blocked so Belt wouldnt work. Ike Davis and Jason Bay are blocking because of cost controlled and Payroll respectively.
I’d do that trade on the Giants end if it’s sign-and-trade. And you can have Verdugo and not Marte. Surkamp, Culberson, and Verdugo for Reyes is fair enough.
Giving up your 9th prospect and 10th prospect and some guy named Verdugo for Reyes? PASS……… Culberson took almost 4 years to get out of A ball….. He got lucky and hit 360 last season in half a year…. No power, good defense, Strikes out alittle too much, Hey this guys sounds like Hu.
Any trade needs to have Bumgarner involved (even with his bad mechanics and then we’ll talk)
Ok so you dont know anything other than I want to keep Reyes. Sabean is not going to involve Belt or Wheeler for 4 months of Reyes. Second when CC sabathia was traded to Milwaukee they got a Stud in LaPorta so seriously we would not get a stud like Belt and if you think we are getting 2 studs, wow you are delusional. My trade is Surkamp who is a good 3 starter, love the SO numbers. Marte who will be a relief pitcher/closer stud. I love this kid so far. Culberson who is a solid defensive 2B, if he can project anywhere close to production from 2B or Utility player then we are ok and Verdugo who will be a good BP piece. The keys are Surkamp and Marte.
Now with your dumb assesment of some 2011 prospects list from a few months ago and how Surkamp is throwing now, you would need to look into some facts first. The only thing I would really like to see is some aggressive trade for Reyes in late June to the Giants and see the mets get Peguero if his health checks out and then Marte and Surkamp.
I’m sorry but the value that you recieve in any trade is
REYES FOR 2-4 MONTHS RENTAL + 1 FIRST ROUND PICK + 1 SUPPLIMENTAL PICK.
Because if you don’t sign Reyes, you get the draft picks. If you sign Reyes to a long deal then he isn’t a rental. You are proposing not even giving back enough to cover the 2 picks. If I was SF I would love that deal. You’d get Reyes for 2-4 Months and improve your farm system. A no brainer.
The CC deal was for the Brewers #1 prospect, thier #11, thier #23, and Michael Brantley. Laporta was ranked #23 overall by baseball america, your not even giving back prospects ranked in the top 200.
Culberson has a lifetime 264 batting avg in 4+ season in the minors. Strikes out 3x’s the amount that he walks, and has 23 HR in over 1700 atbats. Those are facts what you are throwing out are your opinions on the guy.
Surkamp would be a guy I would want in addition to Belt (I’d trade him off for another prospect or 2 if I were the GM)…. Kelvin Marte is a 23 year old relief pitcher still pitching in A ball he’s 2 years above the avg age of his competition, not someone I would look to get back in a deal……..
Now you have all My Dumb assesments on the Players you would like to include in the deal. NOW YOU CAN MAKE FUN OF THE FACT I KNOW NOTHING. Please don’t make up what I typed again. Thanks.
Let’s drop Tejada and sign Reyes. Younger, faster, better D, better O. What’s not to like?
If the Giants want Reyes, it’ll cost them Belt AND Wheeler. Prospects are just that — prospects with no guarantees. Gotta give up two real good ones to get an All-Star like Reyes, so the Mets have better odds of getting a good player.
Reyes is a star and one of the the top three shortstops in baseball. Anyone looking to acquire him should be prepared to pay that price. A top young prospect, likely a top young arm, will and should be the starting point in the cost for Reyes. None of this “bunch of middling minor leaguers” garbage. If that means Belt or Bumgarner, Giants fans, then so be it. That’s what Reyes is worth.
If the best the Mets can do for Reyes is Sanchez… well, that’s just a complete and utter failure on their part.
Here is your comparable.
Dec 2005 – Redsoxs trade Edgar Renteria (and a horrible contract) to The Alanta Braves for Andy Marte (The #9 prospect in all of baseball by Baseball America)…. TRADES MUST BE EVALUATED AT VALUE OF PLAYERS AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME. GIVE THE METS ATLEAST THE #9 PROSPECT IN ALL OF BASEBALL AND YOU HAVE A DEAL.
Um, Any deal to reach close to that would need to include Bumgarner (and his horrible mechanics) or Brandon Belt (Which the Mets can trade)….. Unless of course Cain or Lincicum was in the deal (Just as far in the other direction as most of these posts)
Ok lets get this done. LaPorta was a top 20 prospect for the best pitcher in the MLB at the time in CC Sabathia. Belt is top 24 in most lists, and Wheeler is top 50. SO…
pick through the Giants farm system and show me something and KNOW you are not getting either and we are not going to have Reyes stay the entire season so he can be playing in front of Marlinsesque crowds in late August and September.
If the Giants reach a contract extension during the trade, is Wheeler and Belt part of the deal (bigger deal)