It was quite a shock when Major League Baseball abruptly announced the retirement of Manny Ramirez yesterday, and by now you know the circumstances of his decision. Manny tested positive for a banned substance and instead of going through the appeal and suspension processes, he called it quits. It was his second positive test, so he would have faced a 100-game suspension.
Ramirez’s career started in 1993, though he wasn’t a full-time player until 1995. He’s a .312/.411/.585 career hitter with 555 homers and 1,831 RBI. His six-year peak from 1999-2004 (ages 27-32) featured a .327/.428/.633 batting line and a 168 OPS+. Although he never won an MVP, Manny has four top-four finishes in the voting and nine top-ten finishes. He was a 12-time All-Star, a two-time Hank Aaron Award winner (given to the top hitter in the league as voted on by the fans), and the MVP of the 2004 World Series.
As a player, Ramiez’s Hall of Fame credentials are undeniable. He was no worse than one of the five best hitters of his generation, having enough of an impact with the bat to negate his poor defense. But he’s also the only big leaguer to ever test positive for banned substances on two occasions, putting some of his accomplishments in question. We have to look no further than Mark McGwire to see how the Hall of Fame voters feel about banned substances, but what about you?
It’s not “allowed” — he hasn’t been banned from baseball which would prevent his enshrinement. But he would never get enough votes from those with that power. If McGwire gets 15-25% of the vote, Manny will likely get 10-15%. But allowed? Why not?
Agree. He should be allowed. I would vote for him, but I believe many others would not. I understand their reasoning, but I don’t agree with them. As far as I’m concerned, everyone in the late 90s is implicated somewhat. Baseball didn’t have a steroid policy at the time, so they’re all technically innocent. I can only compare what Manny (and others) did to what others were doing in the game at the time. In a league of steroid users, Manny was one of the best and deserving of the HOF.
Ya, but the big problem is that Manny got caught using something again…in the post-steroid era. That is not going to sit well with the voters.
You don’t need to have a Steroid policy when you have a policy that bans all illegal drug use, which baseball has had since the 80’s. Every one of the guys that used performance enhancing drugs is a cheater and it’s disturbing that so many people are willing to overlook that based on their numbers or their celebrity, or the fact that so many players did it. It’s called cheating. Stop making excuses for the guys who did and hold them accountable.
The HOF is important – it is the record of our game to baseball lovers of the future. It is the standard by which we measure greatness today and in years to come. I never saw Babe Ruth play but the HOF will make sure I know of his accomplishments. Those accomplishments were unique and rare. His drinking and smoking may affect what I think of hm as a moral character, but his stats tell me what he did to deserve my appreciation.
I saw all of Manny’s career. I watched him play as an Indian and as a Bosox. I followed his time in the NL and his attempt to extend his career this year. I know what he could do with his bat. I assumed he drank and smoked and had his own partying ways. Those things are comparable to the Babe.
I will not judge his moral character on the basis of PEDs that too many players were using.
But I will demand as a responsible fan who has a say, that his records must be qualified. The years of steroid use must also be part of the HOF record and those players who were considered great during those times must suffer that qualification. As players they may end up in the Hall but everyone in the future has the right to ask if those records can really be compared to Ruth and Aaron. Or to Bautista and future PED free stars whose careers are PED monitired.
No one will ever hit 70 HRs in a regular season again. Those records must go. They do not represent baseball’s greatest accomplishments. They represent PEDs greatest accomplishments. Those records must go to honor what players like Ruth, Mantle, and Aaron accomplished.
Manny has big numbers and of all the PED enhanced players he was one of the best. As a great player of his age he may have proven himself. But his age was polluted by PEDs and does not deserve to be compared to previous times and future times.
Someday (I hope in my lifetime) a player will hit 61 HRs and deserves to have their name beside Maris not behind Bonds.
BTW – Thanks for maintaining my favorite baseball website:)
Responsible fan? That: is an oxymoron.
Agree also, but for different reasons. When the current generation of “me 1st” players, writers and fans have a chance, people like McGuire, Ramirez, Bonds and Palmero will all make it and it is a real shame. there will be few to no standards as to regards to cheating anymore.
Where one time putting rubber balls in a bat was considered th ultimate “no-no” to get some extra power, now the people thought they could get away with tons of muscle and power and the worst thing is they know future voters will be thinking like minded and allow them.
I predict in 10, 15 years max 3 of them (maybe no Palmero) will be enshrined. I hope they build an out house to stick the trophies in at least.
I agree, you should replace “allowed” with “inducted”
Looking at those results, it makes me ashamed to be a baseball fan. Manny did the crime and did the time, it’s over with now. The guy is one of the best pure hitters in baseball history, roids or not. It’s going to be a huge black mark on baseball if some of the greatest players ever (Bonds, Manny, etc.) are not enshrined. Guys like Bonds didn’t even break a rule for god sakes, why not punish Selig?
I’m sorry that your pride in baseball rides so heavily on the opinion of your peers regarding whether or not to honor those who would cheat to excel in the sport.
Here’s a question for you, I probably won’t get an honest answer. Lets say Manny retired before steroids were against the rules. He would not have cheated in any way, shape, or form and been one of 9 players in baseball history with a career OPS over 1.000 (easy hall of famer). Do you vote him in? You’re lying if you say no.
These last 4 years shouldn’t change that, especially when he actually played well.
That is one of the better comments on this board
The fact is that PED’s don’t help eye-hand or baseball smarts. These guys- Bonds, McGuire, ManRam, and on and on- were good ball players. The PED’s allowed them to recover more quickly from injury, and probably last a few more years than they might have. Same could be said of year-round physical conditioning that the players in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s couldn’t begin to use (and yes, I know year-round physical conditioning was never against baseball’s rules). Just like bennies in the ’70’s, PED’s was thought of as something you had to do to be competitive. So, yeah, I’d vote for Manny, and I’d vote for McGuire, and I’d vote for Bonds. The HOF isn’t a collection of saints, it’s a collection of men who played baseball far better than mere mortals. Those guys qualify.
He’s quitting so he doesn’t have to do the time.
Really? Manny use roids got caught once and did his time yes but two years later he got chaught with a banned substance again( key word is again) and would have faced another punishment so he decided to quit. It’s hard now to call him one if the greatest when you have to wonder now if he ever was clean. He cheated plain and simple cheaters do not deserve to be in anyones hall of fame no matter how good they were. If manny some how makes it is after cheating at least twice. Then Pete rose needs to be un banned from baseball
You are pretty damn naive if you think there aren’t dozens of guys in baseball who cheated at one time or another. Foreign substances, corked bats, bribing umpires, steroids, drugs, etc.
If the MLB doesn’t want roid users in the HOF then they should make it a rule that players are banished (like with betting). The fact is, Manny did the crime, and he did the time. It should have ZERO bearing on whether he goes in the HOF or not. Sure it’s unfortunate that they weren’t against the rules for so long, but they weren’t and that’s the end of it. Should we go get rid of everyone who threw the spitball in the HOF? It’s the same thing. You’re argument is so flawed it’s not even funny.
He won’t get inducted. I already know this. A lot of people already know this. I think he should. I’m 18 so I haven’t seen as much as a lot of people on this site probably have but he is the best pure hitter I have ever seen, steroids or not. I am from Boston and I HATE the Red Sox. There has not been a single more deadly hitter than Manny Ramirez the last decade. Not Pujols, not Hanley Ramirez, not A-rod. They might have better stats but if I had to pick one guy to get the job done no matter the situation it would be Manny. No questions asked. Cheating or not I have tremendous respect for the pure hitting ability Manny had. He is one of the best that ever played. That is why I think he should be inducted but like I said, he won’t.
Joe, I don’t see how it’s possible for you to know that anything you’ve seen of Manny, hasn’t been helped by steroids. The pure hitting you believe you’ve seen, may be totally steroid enhanced. The fact that Manny felt compelled to continue to cheat even after getting suspended for 50 games, goes to show how much he feels he needs to cheat to perform well.
Manny never had the personality and the dignity to join such a prestigious group as the HOF, he made enemies in the media by shunning them at every turn, and now his numbers are tainted. He deserves it less then most now.
It was never about personality and dignity, there are plenty of guys in the Hall of Fame with neither quality.
The fact of the matter is, to steal a line from “Outside Providence”, when everyone else (Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire) did one, Manny did TWO. THAT is what is now going to keep him out of the Hall.
Agreed! There are a lot of A Holes, Racists, Alcoholics and possibly even Murderers in the HOF.
Ty Cobb is in the HOF and youre talking about dignity?
but ty cobb somehow made his way in…
The Hall of Fame could do worse than to post pertinent circumstances for each era, whether or not you call it a disclaimer. So while the numbers are what they are for the so-called PED era, you can argue that earlier numbers are skewed because of the introduction of the live ball after 1919, for instance, or perhaps even more significantly any number pre-1947 given that lily-white major league baseball didn’t play on a level playing field because of the color barrier.
im appalled that people actually think that these juicers should be in the hall.
had they not taken anything to CHEMICALLY IMPROVE THEIR PERFORMANCE, they would NOT be one of the “greats”.. they would not have broken these old records that guys worked their butts off for and had true talent, held for so long. it’s a shame.
i don’t care if baseball didn’t have a “policy” for PEDs back then, those guys knew what they were doing. they knew they cheating the system to make themselves look like heroes, when in reality, they are criminals, cheaters, and frauds.
i do think that Selig knew about it and didn’t do anything because it helped his sport get the ratings it did back then because casual fans just love the long-ball, but to say that these “players” and “athletes” are not at fault and are some of the “greatest players ever” is absolutely disgusting.
i don’t care if they wipe out a whole 10 years of baseball from the HOF, if they want to have a separate area designated as “Hall of PED users”, go right ahead. but to put them in the same place as the true greatest players to ever play the game, would be a disgrace.
I’m appalled that you are willing to make allowances for old-timers who chemically improved their performance by popping amphetamines as though they were Flintstones Kids vitamins.
I’m tired of people comparing greenies to PEDs. They are not the same thing. Not even close.
And I’m tired of people lumping all PEDs into the same category. They are not all the same, nor do they all impact performance in the same way.
The point is that it’s hypocritical to attack an entire generation for chemical enhancement while ignoring the fact that the previous generation used forms of chemical enhancements that are now banned.
Greenies = Today’s 5 Hour Energy.
Neither will turn a guy with warning track power into a 30 HR per year guy.
Boli on the other hand will.
If you want differentiation, you would do well to follow your own advice.
Dunkin Donuts isn’t comparing the actual substances, literally. His argument is more philosophical than practical. He’s basically saying that players took a substance that gave them an advantage (alertness and focus), which later became illegal, but we do not treat them like we do the steroid era guys. It’s a fair point, regardless of how different the two drugs are.
No, they actually are. Performance Enhancer is the key term…
Comparing Greenies to Peds is like comparing drinking a bottle of non alcoholic beer to drinking a pint of vodka!
Amphetamines don’t improve your skills. PED’s do.
that’s a weird distinction
Current research shows amphetamines improve reaction time, and cognitive function, increase the feelings of alertness, decrease a sense of fatigue and increase euphoria
very obviously tend to enhance performance. Performance Enhancing Drug
I couldn’t care less what studies say. Researchers change their findings constantly. At that logic, Red Bull or other energy drinks should also be banned.
I’m not saying amphetamines are any better or okay to take, but in my opinion are not on the level of other drugs.
Have you ever seen someone on meth before? I am serious. They bounce off walls, stay up for days, have unreal reaction time, and usually have a much better understanding of their surroundings.. Has is that not enhancing?
You’re serious? Yes, actually I have. They also hallucinate, steal, and die.
Really? You saying being alert and aware in the 13th inning isnt a skill?
Well, that’s debatable. I haven’t seen any studies myself, but my logic tells me players on greenies improved their average/obp, just like guys on steroids improved their power numbers.
People seriously need a bucket because they are drowning with this argument.
You can’t chemically improve eyesight, hand-eye coordination, or knowledge of pitcher tendencies. Manny was still a .300 + hitter for a huge majority of his career, and that is not something steroids would fix.
Steroids turn doubles into home runs; they don’t develop true hitters. Manny still put in his time, and still worked his butt off in the cages not to hit home runs, but to be one of the best hitters of his generation. And he was. Think what you want, but try looking at the whole picture instead of his inflated home run numbers.
Also, we don’t know when Manny actually used any of the illegal substances. He got suspended in 2009. The Drug testing started in 2003, and the Drug Prevention and Treatment program in 2006. If Manny was doin juice all aloong, wouldn’t he have been busted in the PRIME of his career? When he was hitting 40+ homers as a Red Sock? Not In his decline with the Dodgers?
I don’t think all the PED users should be in the Hall, but this guy should. Even if you take off say, 50-100 homers that you can attribute to PED use, the guy still jacked a ton and was a game changer, and isn’t that the type of player that deserves to be in the Hall?
He was an awesome hitter, but Manny Ramirez, with the exact same stats except adjusted for 0 home runs is not a Hall of Famer. Now of course it’s ridiculous to assume he would have hit 0 homers without PEDs, that’s not my point. My point is that at least to some degree, his candidacy is contingent on the incredible power he displayed.
Is Manny a HOFer at 500 HRs? 400? 300? 250? Where’s the line? And more to the point, how do we determine to what degree his use of PEDs affected that power? How do we know how long he was taking them? How do we even begin to regress his (power) numbers and see if he meets our criteria? I’d agree that knocking 50-100 off his total (10-20% or so) is probably fair — but I have absolutely nothing to base that on. It’s not impossible to imagine a guy with warning-track power who only needed the slightest of nudges, a nudge he should have gotten by hard work and discipline and instead found in a syringe.
All of this, of course, completely ignoring all the OTHER questions about HOF candidacy, like whether or not what kind of person, teammate and member of the community somebody is should matter; their defense, their position, etc. And yes, I know the stories about people like Ty Cobb. I also know he died 50 years ago and was enshrined in the Hall of Fame 75 years ago, and I find judging people who lived that long ago by contemporary standards to be fruitless. Being a racist bastard in the early 1900s simply wasn’t much of an issue at that time. Should “Manny being Manny” even be considered?
I don’t know the answers. In my gut, Ramirez is probably a Hall of Famer, but I really don’t know if that would be the right choice. I suppose one thing most of us can agree on is that it’s sad that all of this nonsense makes it as hard a choice as it is for so many people.
Imagine Dale Murphy’s numbers if he had been allowed to used steroids?
Add 20% to his overall numbers and lengthen his career by 8 yrs? He would have retired a life long Brave at the end of the 2000 season with 700 HRs and would have been a unamimus first ballot HOF in 2005. The Braves would have never traded him and with a juiced up Murphy in their line up would have gone on to win the World Series 10 years in a row.
Now imagine Barry Bonds with integrity, (I know, just try). What if he had played strait? His overall numbers would have been down 20% and he wouldn’t have had those extra 8 years tacted onto his career. He would have also retired at the end of 2000 but with 398 HRs. He would still be on the HOF ballot with 11% of the vote, and fans would still be pulling for him! Hammerin’ Hank Aaron would still be the HR King!
Man Ram may have never made it out of AAA in 1995 without PEDs!
Manny is a HOF and always will be in my book and many others and thats all that matters. His skills were always consistent and batting eyes like his can’t be injected. He is my favorite player ever so maybe im a bit biased, or but I think its more that I’ve just soured on the whole PED witch hunt altogether. If we were cleaning up all sports and actually making a difference that would be one thing. The reality is that we are allegedly doing all this with children in mind so that way they can have positive non using role models, but unless the NBA, NHL, and NFL are cleaned up its all a load of crap. Either we clean it all up or we have accomplished nothing except discrediting one sport with steroid use, while knowingly looking the other way on the other sports that do the same thing.
NHL? Pretty sure, the NHL is the only one of the big four with out drug problems. Nice try though.
Wrong, known ped users in the NHL included John Kordic, Tony Twist, Jay Caufield and Joey Kocur and, while enforcers, they go back to the 80’s so there’s probably a much bigger ped problem in the NHL than most people know!
I agree that PED use in the NHL is probably bigger than a lot of people would suspect. While it may not be as notorious as it is in baseball or the NFL, it certainly isn’t nonexistent, and haven’t there already been a couple of NHL players suspended for using PEDs?
Pretty sure any athlete could benefit from steroids, nice try though.
“Either we clean it all up or we have accomplished nothing except discrediting one sport with steroid use, while knowingly looking the other way on the other sports that do the same thing.”
So what you’re saying is that one group of people (MLB) shouldn’t try to do what they feel is right because other groups of people (NBA, NHL, NFL) haven’t done so as well? That’s an incredibly shallow definition of morality and an excellent reason why change is so slow.
If they think that’s the right thing to do, DO IT. It doesn’t matter what other people think or what other people do. If you don’t even try to live up to your own moral code, you’re little more than a puppet with somebody else’s hand tickling your brain stem from below.
He should definitely get in. I know many will vote against him based on his two tests, but how many other names were on the Mitchell Report? 100+? Granted he is a repeat offender, but you have to take his accomplishments in context with the era. Manny happened to shine in an era of performance enhancers. Even though he took them, he was still better than everyone else who did, so therefore he should get in.
I think it is the testing positive in the post-steroid era that will have the bigger impact.
You can argue that there are “other names” listed elsewhere, but the fact is Manny “broke the rules” not once but twice. No other player has done that, and for that reason alone he will not get in. I’m sure there will be others that do get in simply because they didn’t get caught, but that is not the case here. To argue that he was “the best chemically enhanced player” so he should be in the HOF is ludicrous.
1) Those names on the Mitchell Report aren’t getting into the Hall either almost across the board.
2) To some level I can understand a young poor kid whose only shot to make it into baseball is to use PEDs. I can understand his reasoning for cheating. But why does a guy like Manny who clearly has the underlying ability have to do it? What in his twisted mind makes it that he can’t just rely on his own natural ability? Why can’t he just try to be the best on his own ability?
It really makes you wonder.
Because, in his mind, it wasn’t enough. You and I may think so, but when you’re that close to the top, you want to be the number one guy, and remain in that position for as long as you can. It’s a form of competitiveness, you can say.
But thats my point, if you are using the drugs to be at the top, how can we justify putting someone like that in the hall? Its hard to say they’d be there otherwise.
In Mannys case, I’m pretty sure it was cockiness that made him do it!
How do you know that the majority of the greats didn’t use. Steroid were created in 1930. So that leaves about 70 years of looking the other way to account for. How do you know Ted Williams never used them? Answer is you don’t and to assume the “greats” never did is pure speculation backed up by ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
great comment
Because there is no evidence that anyone used them in the 30s.
i just wanna say that all the PED users such as McGwire or Bonds should be inducted into the MLB HOF. Fair enough they had the choice to use PEDs or to stay away from them but the MLB (Bud Selig and co.) knew exactly what was going on and let it all happen because it generated more revenues for every one(MLB and owners). Can you blame it all on players? I believe they shoudl eb HOFamers.
Now back to Manny… it’s so sad to see he got cought again and i hope they say for what drug exactly. It’s really too bad it had to end this way, what a career, he put on a show every time he stepped on the field, probably the coolest guy ever. I hope he finishes his career in Japan or somewhere else, he’s too cool to go out on such a terrible note like that.
amen
HOF or not, ramirez will continue to be one of the best hitters i’ve ever seen. and it wasn’t because of his power
He will get in eventually, but he won’t get my vote because of his horrible behavior, like throwing the boston vp to the ground.
He’s a man who never understood that there’s no “I” in team.
“there’s no I in team, but there is a me!”
Another well- known admitted career cheater by the name of Gaylord Perry was “allowed” into the Hall so why not Manny? Still, I personally hope he doesn’t!
Manny got caught breaking the rules… twice, Perry didn’t.
Perry is actually worse cuz he admitted he cheated his entire career!
The point is Perry shouldn’t be in the Hall either. Just because there is a precedent doesn’t mean it’s the right choice.
Hitler was once “allowed” to lead a country, doesn’t mean I’m gonna run out and find some Kluxer to elect president.
Pete Rose and Barry Bonds are statistically deserving hall of famers right? But they didn’t get in because of certain reasons. If those certain reasons apply to Manny as well, then he should not be voted in.
Consistency is all I ask for.
NO
I disagree with the assumption that he’s a clear HoFer even without the steroid debate. The dude could hit, no doubt. But his defense was atrocious, Manny was a DH that stood in the field and occasionally caught things that were hit right at him. There is also the many personality issues to account for. While I’m not a huge advocate in letting off field issues play a great role in determining a players HoF worthiness, I do believe that when personality issues begin to have a negative effect on the field there is a huge problem. Manny’s annual public trade demands, his lack of effort every time he was unhappy, his spats with managers and teammates…
The dude could hit, but lets not turn the HoF into an enshrinement simply for every player that the casual fan would recognize as good.
This is a open an closed case IMO. Manny tested positive not once but twice he is tainted now forever as a steroid creation. Since there is no way to figure out how skewed his numbers are due to performance enhancing drugs you can’t separate the two. As in the cases of Bonds and McGwire they are two separate issues, Bonds would have been a HOF’er IMO without PEDs, McGwire is only in the conversation because of PEDs.
if MLB wants to prove a point that by using steriods your not going to the HOF Manny is a good scapegoat. All because he was from an era that cant be erased he can’t get a “get out of jail free” card. And yes, steriods can’t give him an eye but it can give you more homeruns. i always liked Manny but for the MLB to prove a point he’s not going to see cooperstown
As a writer pointed out (I think it was Rosenthal), he failed 2 drug tests AFTER MLB installed stricter policies. Only the most naive would believe he didn’t juice earlier in this career.
Allowed in? No, whether baseball banned or not. Voted in? Same answer. Stats valid? Same answer. I understand all the arguments about bad behavior off the field and the taint associated with many players from the steroid era and bottom line are the stats and obvious physique changes. Guys like Bonds and Sosa had physical body changes. Guys like Nolan Ryan got their numbers consistently and didn’t add mass. Judge every guy one by one and in the end, keep the suspected ones out of the Hall. Before you ask, yeah, I’d take the job to decide who gets in or not if nobody can/will do it.
Then Jeff Bagwell won’t get in cuz he was jacked to the gills!
If Mark McGwire didn’t get inducted into the Hall of Fame for using PED’s before they were banned, no way in hell Manny should get inducted into the HoF for using them AFTER they were banned.
Steroids have been illegal to possess in this country, without a prescription, since “Federal law placed anabolic steroids in Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA) as of February 27, 1991”. Baseball didn’t need to have a specific policy to deal with them because it was against Federal Law. Every one of those cheating bastards is getting off easy by only having their HOF credentials called into question. They could all have criminal records and in some cases have been deported!
That’s only half true. Many of those people simply got a prescription for them — illegitimate prescriptions, to be sure, but they got them. Doctors will do weird things for famous people. See Michael Jackson’s death if you need any evidence of that.
Manny was a much better player than McGwire and steroids have been illegal to use since the 1980’s so, yeah, McGwire was a knowing cheater!
Manny got busted for roids, twice
Mac was never busted
Apparently you weren’t paying attention when McGwire ADMITTED last year to using PEDS and Steroids! So now you know!
Fun argument but the good news is he won’t get in.
Why not open up a separate wing at the Hall of Fame for PED users?
The Steroid Era is ugly, but is it any uglier than the Segregation Era? Both are stains on the history of MLB that were enabled by commissioners and owners and GMs and players alike.
And how are we to ever know what guys like Manny would have done without steroids? Heck, how do we even know when guys like Manny even started using? When was Manny’s first positive test? 2009? Through 2008, he put up a 1.004 OPS and 527 home runs. Who here can say, without a doubt, that Manny used steroids any time before 2009?
Just another thread in this argument…
For those who are saying no one knows when he started cheating, get real. Look at him on the Indians, then look at him in a Red Sox uniform. Look at his numbers from Cleveland, respectable, then goes to Boston and kills it. I don’t think the hitter friendly Fenway had that much to do with the spike in numbers. His boy Ortiz did the same thing when he went to Boston. Both cheaters.
Really?
Manny in Cleveland: .998 OPS
Manny in Boston: .999 OPS
Manny in Cleveland: HR every 14.7 AB’s
Manny in Boston: HR every 14.4 AB’s
Heck, Manny’s SLG% in Cleveland (.592) was actually higher than it was in Boston (.588).
How about career highs?
Career high OPS? 1.154 in Cleveland in 2000.
Career high homers? A tie. 45 in Cleveland in ’98, 45 in Boston in ’05.
And his career high SLG% (.697 in Cleveland in 2000) was 50 points higher than his best SLG% in Boston.
So what was that about Manny being “respectable” in Cleveland and “killing it” in Boston?
To me he is absolutely a HOFer. In the late 90s and on he was one of the best hitters I’ve ever seen. His behaviour was questionable for sure, but for pure entertainment he was one to watch.
PEDs or no PEDs, he’s in. Steroids were part of that era. It was both pitchers and hitters, so the playing field was level. Other eras are tainted as well, as others have mentioned. And even though “character” is supposed to be considered for induction, there are some despicible people in there.
To discount amphetamine use as not performance-enhancing (for hitters more so than pitchers) is just wrong. Nowadays how many people do we see play 162 games? Very few. Before the ban you would see plenty of players with 150+ games. Amphetamines allowed players to play more games than they normally would be capable of playing. That allowed them to increase their counting stats. It does increase your cognitive abilities. How much did they increase their stats because they weren’t too tired? Amphetamine users are just as guilty of cheating as steroid users.
People seem to hate on the steroid era because the stats are comparable to other eras, but in reality, they shouldn’t be compared in the first place. There was the era of having the colour barrier, there was a change in the length of the season, there was a change to the mound, expansion watered down the talent level, there was the addition of the DH, Milwaukee switched from the AL to the NL, Colorado got a team… Also, let’s not forget all the changes in stadiums.
There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.
The dual failed tests would be a new low for a HOFer, but not all banned substances have the same effect on performance. It will be interesting to see how voters handle the PED test era players.
One of my favorite dubya moments lol
I remember when a reporter asked Will Clark what he thought of Palmeiro right after Palmeiro got busted for PEDs. Clark said, “They finaly got him”. Now apparently there was bad blood between those two from their days together at Mississippi State but my point is that could anyone imagine what kind of numbers Clark could have put up if he was on the juice. Or somebody like Dale Murphy could have put up like somebody earlier already said. Enough is enough. It is time to really make an example of people getting busted from now on because apparently some people don’t understand yet. Baseball needs a real commissioner to lay down the law once and for all.
Imagine Dale Murphy’s numbers if he had been allowed to used steroids? Add 20% to his overall numbers and lengthen his career by 8 yrs? He would have retired a life long Brave at the end of the 2000 season with 700 HRs and would have been a unamimus first ballot HOF in 2005. The Braves would have never traded him and with Murphy in their line up would have gone on to win the World Series 10 years in a row.
Now imagine Barry Bonds with integrity, (I know, just try). What if he had been strait? His overall numbers would have been down 20% and he wouldn’t have had those extra 8 years tacted onto his career. He would have retired at the end of 2000 with 398 HRs. He would still be on the HOF ballot with 11% of the vote! And fans would still be pulling for him!
Man Ram may have never made it out of AAA in 1995!
Manny should not get into the HOF
and, as in the NCAA
everyone of the games he played in – should be forfeited. This means the Bosox lose their series wins and Cleveland loses their pennants. Those teams should sue Manny for fraud and recoup his pay.
LMAO. Lets get the A’s title against the Giants as well. Also lets expunge AROD from the history books and set fire to any statsheet compiled before 1980.
PS
The NCAA is the biggest joke of all time.
That is just stupid. Honestly, if we were to take away the records of teams with players who juiced, literally the entire 1990’s would just be wiped from baseball history. Just because you don’t like manny ramirez doesn’t mean he is the devil. When Manny came back to Cleveland, I still cheered. If he were to unretire, take his suspension, and play against/for Cleveland again, I would still cheer.
George “Boondoggle” Mitchell can’t believe it….
The innocence was gone after the strike of 1972….then again in 1981….and after what happened in 1994….baseball sold it’s soul to get the fans back and let the PED users walk right through that door. Sure some started earlier…it was obvious with some…but it all went sideways after 1994-95. Expansion and smaller ballparks along with umpires who decided a shoebox would be the strike zone was not good enough…they needed to insure fans would come back.
Now it’s a mess. You know Bret Boone did it and what kind of Fruit Loops was Brady Anderson eating that year he hit 50 homers? Giambi admitted it but he does not get a pat on the back from me for doing it.
To quote the great orator Johnny “Rotten” Lydon… “Good riddance to bad rubbish”