Rangers left fielder Josh Hamilton is out for six to eight weeks after enduring a non-displaced fracture of his right shoulder and, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com, some people in Cincinnati may not be completely surprised. After the 2007 season, Reds medical people strongly suggested that the front office should trade Hamilton because of his health reports. Here’s the latest on the Rangers and other notes from around the league:
- The Rangers were “extremely close” to sending Michael Young to Colorado about a month before Spring Training, according to Heyman. The Rockies loved Young and he would have welcomed a trade to Denver or to either L.A. team. The infielder has since reconciled himself to his role in Texas.
- A rival GM says he’d trade Felix Hernandez to the Yankees for Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, Manny Banuelos and Jesus Montero if he were running the Mariners.
- One GM says Royals GM Dayton Moore did a good job of ‘bottom feeding’ this winter to come up with left-handers Bruce Chen and Jeff Francis on affordable deals.
- Andres Torres suffered an Achilles injury, so the Giants need outfield depth and are unlikely to release Aaron Rowand soon. Rowand has a .923 OPS so far including two hits yesterday.
**A rival GM says he’d trade Felix Hernandez to the Yankees for Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, Manny Banuelos and Jesus Montero if he were running the Mariners.**
Hello stupid quote of the day.
Is there a player in baseball that you couldn’t trade Nova Betances Banuelos and Montero for? A package of prospects like that has NEVER been moved for any one piece.
I don’t think I’d trade pre-arb Posey for that.
Z would be stupid to move Felix. He’d just be asking to be canned. Felix is about all we Mariner fans have left to cheer for right now.
Taylor that’s kind of the point. Having something to “cheer for” is nice… but Felix alone is not going to help the mariners compete.
4 top level prospects will do more to help going forward than Felix alone.
yeah that ichiro guy has nothing left.
Still… I think everyone knows the Mariners are the fourth best team in the division, and have virtually no chance at making the playoffs.
This year. They still have Felix for three more years.
It would be a different story if Felix was on the last year of his deal.
“about all”. Didn’t feel like bring Ichiro in was necessary.
It is not Felix alone, though. Pineda and Smoak are already there, Ackley and others are en route and either Rendon or Cole are on the way. Having control of Felix for the next several years is going to be more valuable than the maybe that these prospects will provide.
ah, pineda smoak and ackley are sure things, but montero banuelos betances brackman et al are all long shots! brilliant
including those players, the mariners are unlikely contenders before 2013. and 2013 is assuming they make some good moves in the meantime to make the club better by then. that’s not necessarily a safe assumption. so for 2013, you choose between:
pineda smoak ackley ichiro hernandez and the seattle supporting cast
or
pineda smoak ackley ichiro montero banuelos betances brackman nova gardner and the seattle supporting cast
even modest projections for the latter group exceed felix’s with ease. that’s not even mentioning the difference in value of that crop of young cheap controllable players versus a single pitcher’s ~$75M commitment (and the two utterly wasted seasons in the meantime)
To clarify, I did not call the Yankees proposed prospects (which only included nova, banuelos, betances, and montero btw) long shots, I said that Felix is more valuable. Neither do I think the M’s prospects are sure things, I only bring up the current prospects because the running assumption seems to be that the cupboard is bare, which is not the case. The modest projections for the four prospects that Seattle would receive in return do not automatically exceed Felix’s value. It’s not unthinkable that a couple could take a step forward and make this a decent return, but that is not a sure thing. It is also possible that they end up as a few mid rotation guys and a DH. Maybe if Montero was actually a catcher…
notsureifsrs – Usually i tend to agree with your analysis but i am left to wonder why in sam hill are you bringing gardner into the discussion? He wasnt mentioned in the piece above but yet in this comment and in your comments below you lump gardner into the trade.
comes from an exchange later in the thread in which gardner and brackman are thrown in and M’s fans still insisted they wouldn’t make the trade
**A rival GM says he’d trade Felix Hernandez to the Yankees for Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, Manny Banuelos and Jesus Montero if he were running the Mariners.**
Enough already Mr. Cashman…… Felix isnt going anywhere
So cashman is the rival GM? Oh so it was rival to the Mariners circa 2001 they were talking about? See I interpreted it as neither GM (SEA or NYY), and just some other GM saying what he would have done. Far as I can tell, Cashman never offered this deal, the Mariners never asked for this deal, and Cashman isn’t the kind to trade three A level prospects (Banuelos, Betances and Montero).
“lawnmowers don’t have a rivalry with grass”
Who was the “rival GM” who suggested that trade? Brian Cashman?
Why would Cashman want to approach another deal with a GM that pulled a done deal off the table? Seattle is cut off from the Yankees farm system and salary relief IMO.
If the right deal comes up the yanks won’t be petty and miss a chance to make their team better.
Was that rival GM by any chance Brian Cashman? Because that is a dead horse that doesn’t deserve to be beaten anymore.
Yeah well if or when the Mariners ever do shop King Felix if the Yankees offered Ivan Nova, Betances, Banuelos and Montero for King Felix and the Mariners said no then he ain’t getting traded.
We turned down a package centered around Kevin Youkilis. I’m not so sure 4 unproven prospects could do it.
Kevin Youkilis is less valuable a trade chip than 3 A list and a B list (Nova) prospects. He’s a 32 year old. If he were the same player but 23, he’d be valuable.
Kevin Youkilis is less valuable than 3 A list and a B list prospects.
not to every team. but to the mariners, yes absolutely
Maybe it wouldn’t but it would be foolish to not even look at or consider the proposed offer.
Lol. Zduriencik wouldn’t hang up on that offer, *probably*… but there’s no way you’re getting a 24/25yo reigning Cy Young winner on a 4 year deal for MiLB players. Toss in Brackman and Gardner, then you’ve probably got a deal.
Personally, I still wouldn’t do it.
Personally, I would never offer that much.
“East Coast Bias”. Pretty obvious why you wouldn’t offer that much. We’ll enjoy it when 2 of those 4 prospects fizzle out, 1 is decent, and 1 is great. That’s minor league baseball for you.
someone’s bitter about smoak
I dont know, I’m kind of excited about Smoak. After he settled in last year he played pretty well, and he’s off to a strong start this year.
hey, i like smoak. i like top prospects. that’s why i like these proposals for seattle
I love Smoak. I thought the package Texas offered was better than the one New York offered.
I remain unapologetic about my allegiances: to the Yankees, the east coast, and to logic!
Enjoy one of the best pitchers in the game going 10-10 for his tenure in that uniform.
The prospects are no more likely to fizzle out than Felix is to keep pitching like this for 10 years.
Considering Felix has never had serious arm injuries [had a forearm strain once], hasn’t lost velocity, and hasn’t seen his K/BB drop in 5+ seasons, I’d set the over/under for 5+ WAR seasons out of your 10 year thesis at 7.
You’re probably right. However, everyone is prone to injury, especially pitchers and Josh Hamilton. I think it’s too steep a price to pay for one player, especially if he gets injured. If one of the B’s gets injured, you can stomach it. If Felix goes down, you simply cannot.
I don’t mind paying $, but I’m reluctant to give up that high of a price regarding prospects. Watching Tabata rake this season makes me shake my head.
A top tier pitcher never having been hurt does not imply that he will not get hurt. See: Brandon Webb.
That’s no different than saying “the moon didn’t collide with the earth today, but it may tomorrow.” I refuse to despute with straw grasping.
Cool story, bro. There’s a LONG list of “great” pitchers whose careers were derailed (either temporarily or permanently) by injuries. Pitchers are risky, and if you have a crappy team, having four commodities is better than having 1.
As a Red Sox fan I would love it if the Yankees gave Nova, Betances, Banuelos, Montero, Brackman, and Gardner for Hernandez. Just saying.
really? you would love for the yankees to match up felix and cc against the sawx?
Absolutely. They might have to face Felix 3-5 times a year, which wouldn’t be fun, but they wouldn’t have to face Montero and Gardner 18 times a year. Add to that not having to face Betances, Banuelos, and Brackman (who all have the ability to be good to excellent) a potential combined 10-15 times a year, and yes I would love for them to make that trade.
…and how would you feel about facing Sabatha and Felix 5 times in a seven-game playoff series?
Not as bad as I would feel about facing Sabathia, Banuelos, and Brackman 7 times and Gardiner and Montero 56 times in a 7 game series.
Sigh…
While I don’t argue that no team should offer that much for one player, Felix is still worth more. He’s, currently, nearly untradeable off talent level alone.
Neither would I. Wait you mean you wouldn’t offer it right? Because I would never offer that much for one player, even Pujols with 3 years at that price. I mean conservatively, if you think they are all 2-3 WAR players (which is pretty darn conservative), then that’s 12-18 WAR right there spread around pitching, hitting and defense. Throw in that they’re pre-arb players and… wow that’s value.
You make it sound like he’s coming cheap by saying “on a 4 year deal” when he’s actually getting near market value at 18.5m, 19.5m, and 20m per year starting next season.
considering cliff lee is getting(after this season) 21.5, 25, 25, 25, and 27 and considering felix is younger, has a better career era, better career k/9 a better career whip and only 2.4 less career WAR than lee in 3 less seasons i would say felix is getting a huge bargin.
Ehh, that’s debatable. I don’t know if I’d put around 20m per year as a “huge bargain.” Is he getting what he would have gotten in free agency? No. But it’s not that far from.
market value means what a player would get through Free agency. so again Felix is a bargin
Right. But it isn’t a “huge bargain” as you originally said. That has been my point all along.
Buster Posey and Evan Longoria are “huge bargains”. Felix is slightly below market value. Pretty big difference there.
Yea that’s just what I’d want, a starter that couldn’t crack 29 other rotations (Nova), an over aged pitcher for his league (Betances), then two decent prospects for the games greatest asset. Guessing the rival GM doesn’t exist, or is someone like Minaya or Drayton Moore to think that’s a good deal. Even if Montero is the next Manny, I wouldn’t trade Felix in his prime for Manny in his prime anyway.
Whatever gets you hits Gayman! (oops, sorry. Had a brief Kobe moment there)
“Even if Montero is the next Manny, I wouldn’t trade Felix in his prime for Manny in his prime anyway.”
well that’s pretty dumb when manny has six years of cheap team control, comes with three top 100 pitching prospects & a 4-6 WAR outfielder with 4 years of cheap team control — and you aren’t going to contend with felix soon anyway
Your comments are getting worse and worse. Not going to contend with felix soon anyway, though they are rebuilding around him and he said he’d like to be a Mariner for his entire career… saying the M’s have no shot to be a contender in 3-5 years? I think they could make a run at 75-80 wins this year if they start to hit with RISP.
Yes that is correct. No shot.
Felix has to say he “loves being a mariner”… he’s still under contract.
Just because he has to “love being a Mariner” just as Cliff Lee did-we all know he never wanted to be here, it doesn’t mean he has to throw some comments out of left field (excuse the pun) about wanting to be a Mariner for life and pitch his entire career with one team.
If I recall, 2 years ago the Mariners won 85 or so games. I believe within 4 season the Tigers went from 43 wins to 90 something wins. Baseball is a funny game. M’s are getting some pieces together. I don’t think they’ll win the division anytime soon, but I could definitely see them turning it around.
“Your comments are getting worse and worse.”
SADFACE
“the M’s have no shot to be a contender in 3-5 years?”
3-4, you mean. they only have him through 2014. and i said soon, which means i don’t see them contending before the last couple years, if then
is 1 or 2 years of theoretical contention (you still have a lot of work to do to build around him and make that happen) preferable to loading up now with manny freaking ramirez, three top 100 arms, a 4-6 WAR outfielder, and a cheap back-end pitcher?
i’ll help: no
I love it when you bring the heat! lol
no need to say “SADFACE” buddy.. a simple 🙁 would have done the job
ORLYFACE
And is there some reason to believe that in 3-4 years the Mariners can be as good as the Rangers, who still have the best farm system in baseball and perhaps the best team at the major league level too? All with fairly young talent? The wild card doesn’t come out of the West, so you have to win the division. If the Mariners sign Pujols this offseason, then maybe. But what are the chances of that?
The Rangers don’t have the best farm system in baseball.
Then I stand corrected, but I still don’t see the Mariners leapfrogging the Rangers or the Angels in the next 3-4 years.
Me either, I was just correcting that statement.
IF he is manny, that’s his ceiling, how many guys reach that? I say manny to compare to best case senario, which happens (insert small percentage here) of the time. Either way, what did Manny by himself ever win? all those big banging clubs in Cleveland, where are all their titles? Oh yea, he didn’t win til he had Josh Beckett.
Felix >>>>>> Beckett
– you brought up the manny comparison, not me
– manny won a title before beckett’s arrival in 2006, history major
– no player has ever won anything by himself. that’s precisely the point here: the more high ceiling talent the better
Either our usage of the word “decent” is not agreed upon, or you’re clearly undervaluing the Yankees’ prospects. Then again, you seem to have forgotten how good Manny Ramirez was in his prime…
…or even out of his prime. 6 cheap years of a .415 wOBA? decent
how is Banuelos only a decent prospect a 21 year old who’s been ranked by everyone as top 100, and who has above average secondary pitches decent? So If the prospect isn’t Babe Ruth he must be trash…wow you guys traded Cliff Lee for dogpoop…going by your logic. even then Betances again ranked highly by everyone who takes age into account for ranking…you sir are a scholar
So to stay short sighted for you in saying we got ‘dogpoop’ for Lee, Smoak only currently has a higher OPS than A-Gone, Morneau, Pujols, etc etc etc. He’s a beast. I know everyone likes to overvalue their own prospects, but talk to me about Montero being better than Smoak in 5 years, because im not on that train. Plus we got a future closer that throws 99 and a couple of toss ins, one might be a 5th starter some day (and is probably ahead of Nova already).
I’m going by your logic. If Banuelos and Montero are mediocre, then your trade does equal out to dogpoop. Or is it because you hate the Yankees to the point you can’t accept anything good coming form them? Plus you’re trashing a starting prospect for a relief prospect…YOU DO REALIZE EVEN A MEDIOCRE STARTER HAS MORE VALUE THAN A GREAT RELIEVER. and the killer B’s are much better than mediocre prospects. SO umm, stop be a homer, homer
Are you seriously quoting two weeks worth of stats, comparing them to three guys who are known to be having slow starts, and trying to say Smoak is better because he has a higher OPS? Is that what you’re doing? Did you know Yunel Escobar (you know, the guy with a career .769 OPS) has an OPS of 1.200 right now? Dude’s legit right?
Wait…….how can Joba not be part of the package? This isn’t a reply, but spokeaneman……I’m pretty sure Nova can crack more than the Yankees rotation. You’re essentially saying the Yankees have the worst rotation in baseball with that comment.
But Hernandez is pretty meh. Chris Narveson has gotten more swings and misses this year….
And you’re basically saying one of the top 3 starters in the league is “meh”.
Good job.
He doesn’t mean that. He can’t mean that…
lolwut
I’m saying, which most people are saying (nothing new here) that outside of CC the yanks have a very below average staff, and their 4 and 5 are below replacement. Why do you think Cashman is freaking out over pitching right now? You want to say how bad seattle is, which is fine, but Nova would probably be the 3rd starter in Tacoma if he were in our system. How does that help the big league club short term or long term with 4 guys that will be here long term ahead of him on the depth chart and probably another (Gerrit Cole) on the way?
I say Joba, Gardner, Montero and one of the pitching prospects for Felix.
i laughed
You never trade a 25 yr old pitcher with his track record and stuff for a few maybe ball players who have accomplished nothing. I would need Cano than I would think about trading a pitcher who may be dominant for another 10+ seasons.
Well I get where your coming from, but Felix isn’t the best pitcher to ever live and honestly who knows how he will do playing in the east on a regular basis. So there’s risk for everyone.
Brett Gardner batted .277 last year and .270 the year before, that’s better then half the Mariner team. Besides the added speed and good defense he would bring.
Joba I think is throwing the ball better this season and if he had a change of scenery I think he might even turn it around to be that go to guy.
Montero has been a consistent beast in the triple A minor leagues but the Yanks have him as a catcher. Maybe the Mariners could use him. Look how Austin Jackson has turned out with an opportunity with the Tigers.
Not to mention throwing in one of the best pitching prospect in minor league baseball.
I don’t think its to far fetched.
It’s actually pretty far fetched. Felix doesn’t have to be the greatest pitcher to ever live to command that much in return. And it doesn’t matter if the M’s are going nowhere in the next few years, they’re still trying to build their team around him. The M’s aren’t giving Felix for a package less than that, and the Yankees aren’t going to trade that kind of package for one guy. It’s a deal that doesn’t work for either side no matter how many times this topic has to come up each week.
“The M’s aren’t giving Felix for a package less than that, and the Yankees aren’t going to trade that kind of package for one guy. It’s a deal that doesn’t work for either side no matter how many times this topic has to come up each week. ”
I want to print this out and frame it on my wall!
Who knows how Brett Gardner and Jesus Montero would fare facing the better pitching of the American League West?
Felix Hernandez dominated AL East teams in seven starts last year (and to a lesser degree in 41 starts lifetime).
“better pitching of the American League West”
Based on what?
Major League Baseball Fantasy Baseball.
So is Jon Heyman trying to say the Reds medical team was concerned about a fracture in his shoulder he’d get on a freak play some 4 years after they traded him? Or a cracked rib from crashing into a wall? I mean, I know Hamilton’s immune system is supposedly shot after his drug use, but I’m not sure most of these injuries have anything to do with that. More likely it has to do with his aggressive play and a need for more calcium
I understand the Reds logic in thinking that after his first year back, but Heyman is an idiot for feeling the need to report that
hahaaha I thought the same thing. How do “health reports” say he would injure his shoulder on a headfirst slide a few years later?
Apparently they had the technology to suggest his skeletal system consisted of peanut brittle.
Ever heard of a dexa scan? Did the Reds predict he would specifically fracture his humerus? No. But with knowing what detrimental side effects that come from sustained drug use, added in with him only being healthy enough to play about 90 games that year, they were making an educated general assumption. Hamilton has turned his life around but unfortunately his body will be paying the price for those few years of bad choices. I’m a huge Hamilton fan, I wish him the best in Texas and still kind of wish he was still a Red, but he won’t complete a full season without realizing his body now has limits.
I’d do that offer if I was the Mariners, obviously do it if I was the Yanks.
However one thing to be considered… Would any team be able to, or comfortable to Beat that deal?
the royals could but wouldn’t. same for the braves, i think
Drabek, D’arnaud, Gose + Lawrie maybe?
I.e. Halladay (with extension) + Marcum (under team control) for Hernandez (with extension).
I think the yankee deal is better than that because at this time Gose is a question mark to even make the majors.
2012 Jays + Felix- Lawrie, Drabek are probably still not a playoff team.
yea but FELIX, DUDE. having him matters more than winning
almost.
Im sure that the Yanks have thought of difference combos for Felix…he might love playing for the Mariners but Im sure he’ll get tired of being on a team that does not contend.
Good thing the Giants didnt send Rowand packing yet since Torres is hurt) the Giants do have outfield depth( sort of) with Burrell, DeRosa, Rowand, Nate S. and soon Cody Ross will be back.. I can see Rowand playing elsewhere before this season is done
Man, Hamilton is a beast on the field, but fragile as hell!
I was thinking the same thing.
His nickname should be Rice Krispies. Snap, crackle, pop.
No. That’s Mathew Stafford.
That’s funny that they mentioned that, because if I was the GM, I’d trade Felix for Pujols, Kinsler, Hanley Ramirez, Longoria, Mauer, Heyward, and Sabathia. I’d also live in a house made of gingerbread and candy canes.
I really hope you’re including Pujols under the assumption that he signs an extension or that is going to be a horrible trade…
I think the rival GM is someone in the AL West that is just tired of facing King Felix.
Brett Gardner…. AAAA OF. Why would the Mariners want him?
Jesus Montero… All hit/No field future DH. Maybe if he werent mentioned in EVERY trade rumor he would have a little value, but at this point everyone knows the Yankees dont value him.
So basically this boils down to two #3-#4 SP types for a 24 yr old ace just entering his prime, under contract for 3 more years, with no history of injuries or missing starts.
I think in two years the M’s will be contending with a very good, and very young team…..like the Rays did. This is an organization still recovering from the Bill Bavidiot years….but they are doing it right.
I would wager money that you’re wrong.
So I get that you don’t want them to do the trade, which is a legitimate position, but everything else you said was just plain silly. Gardner put up over 5 WAR last year and even assuming regression is a pretty easy 4 WAR player going forward. Montero even as a DH is an easy 3.5 WAR. Banuelos has drawn comparisons to none other than King Felix (fair or not) and projects as a #1 on most teams, and a very good #2 on the others.
“Montero even as a DH is an easy 3.5 WAR.”
EASY 3.5? Gotta put up some moderately sexy numbers at DH for 3.5 WAR and Montero, though he’s smacked around MiLB pitchers, is definitely no sure thing.
a .375ish wOBA will do it. if he spends a few games behind the plate, it’s much easier
it’d be surprising if montero posted .375 right out of the gate, sure. but his projections have that kind of production as a low
True nobody is a sure thing until they actually do it, but unless Montero is a complete bust 3.5 WAR should be no problem for him. Maybe not year one, but certainly once he has some experience behind him.
Point of reference: Ortiz posted 3.3 WAR in what was a good-not great year last year.
Yeah I was going to reference Ortiz in the former post, but in more of a “Montero can only hope to be able to put up Ortiz’s numbers” light. Regardless, the kid should mash, though he probably won’t have a huge leash if he’s playing for NYY and happens to not be catching. It’s always sad to see a top prospect fail. Even as a Sox fan, I hope he can produce that 3.5 WAR.
“Montero even as a DH is an easy 3.5 WAR.”
Very, very, very bold statement considering the guy has never played in the bigs.
Already had that conversation with Bluduke28, look like three comments above you.
You sir are a retard. And that’s saying it nicely. You obviously don’t follow any other team other than your precious M’s.
Gardner is like Carl Crawford minus the power and his salary.
I’m also glad you can see the future by saying Montero is a future DH. I guess you would of said the same about Piazza and Posada.
Last thing, the #3-#4 SP types are actually projected to be #2-#3 AT LEAST.
If by under contract for 4 years you mean under contract of 18+ mil a year, sure. I would continue but I feel like I made my point
That’s cute, Pineda is projected as a #2 and he’s light years ahead of any of the yankee pitching prospects. They are #3-4s
Let it go Spokaneman…there is no reasoning with Wankee fans……its interesting that everyone who plays for the Yankees is better than every player on every team….but they are constantly trying to trade these guys!
I mean, they are trying to trade three Felix Herndazez for the King….but they sign carlos Silva instead of promoting one of these guys.
Gardner, high OBP and one of the best defensive OFers in the game (not off to a great start this year, but many great players aren’t, and many mediocre players are, so we shall see)
Montero, who cares if he’s all DH. The Mariners would take ANY player with a great offense.
However I will agree and say trading Felix would be a mistake for the M’s
Brett Gardner hit .277 in that Yankee lineup with no power whatsoever…..where does he fit in in Seattle?
Montero, again cant field, hes a one trick pony who couldnt stick with the Yankees out of ST, and who has been mentioned in EVERY trade rumor.
And the two pitchers are soooooo imposing that the Yankees signed Carlos Silva and are looking for any pitching possible…….
But you Yankee fans keep telling us how incredible your prospects are, someone will bite!
I love when people call me “you Yankee fans” (did you not see my name?) but anyway…
“where does he fit in in Seattle?” Batting lead off. Hitting isn’t the only way to get on base, he had an OBP of .383 last year, he steals bases like crazy and plays outstanding defense.
Montero is mentioned in every trade rumor because he is so good and everyone wants him. He didn’t stick with the Yankees because he is really young and they have Martin so there’s no reason to rush him. He may not be able to stick at catcher but he could always be tried in LF or 1B before he is moved to DH. Then even if he is moved to DH he could come up tomorrow and be the best hitter in the Mariners lineup.
Banuelos isn’t in the Yankees lineup because he just turned 20 and has only thrown 15 innings above A ball, not because he isn’t good.
‘”where does he fit in in Seattle?” Batting lead off. Hitting isn’t the only way to get on base, he had an OBP of .383 last year, he steals bases like crazy and plays outstanding defense.’
Ever heard of this guy named Ichiro? Arguably the best leadoff man in the game? Maybe you should learn something about those team out there on the other coast before telling everybody what they should do.
Ichiro is great, I know, but he had an OBP 25 points lower than Gardiner last year, and has had an OBP as high as Gardiner’s .383 once in the last three years. I’m not trying to imply that Gardiner is a better player than Ichiro but it is not unreasonable to think that Gardiner could lead off with Ichiro batting second or vice versa. Anyway, why would it be a bad thing to have two high OBP guys on your team?
Perhaps they signed Silva because Banuelos and Betances aren’t ready for the Bigs yet, which also might explain why they didn’t make the opening day roster… just a thought.
Gardner also did this not only in that lineup, but playing half his games in a park that makes the Kingdome laugh and he still has zero power. Thats exactly what the mariners need, another slap hitter to clog up the lineup.
clog up what line up? they were in the basement last season in all offensive categories. besides Ich, the M’s struggle to get guys on base.
Oh, and Gardner’s two previous seasons…. 0.6 WAR, and 1.6 WAR….so that regression thing is “probably” a little lower than 4.0….. again, where does he fit in with Seattle?
I like Montero….but I’m not trading one of the three best pitchers in baseball for a guy that has no position, a LF who is filler, a AAA pitcher who is the same age as Felix, who cant get out ML hitters, and a couple unproven guys who may or may not pan out.
Seriously, get real.
If Felix was 18 months from FA, and the M’s are still struggling…I’d consider a package like this….but with three years and a promising rebuild underway….this makes no sense at all.
I’m going to teach you some math, so you calm down.
In 2009, Brett Gardner accumulated 1.6 WAR. (Fangraphs has him at 2.1 but, we’ll use your number)
In 2009, Brett Gardner had 284 plate appearances.
If he had played full time that season, he would have had double the plate appearances.
(284 * 2) = 568
With 568 plate appearances (he had 569 in 2010 and was injured), he would project to 3.2 WAR that season. Not bad for your first full year in the majors.
He then followed that with a 4.5 WAR season in which he missed games due to a wrist injury.
You are also looking at bWAR, which I feel highly underrates defensive contribution.
Gardner is awesome.
According to fangraphs Gardner’s WAR the previos 2 years were 1.1 and 2.1 and neither one was a full season.
Good lord you Wankee fans are pathetic. “Calm down”? I’m fine buddy, I just find you guys comical. Every Yankee fan I’ve EVER met is the exact same….same sense of entitlement….same thought pattern that every corpse in your system would be a star on every other team.
Please keep Brett Gardner…….and good luck with Carlos Silva! He can be your closer…..he closed down the clubhouse buffet every night in Seattle!
You use “…” more than I do…. < see what I did there at the end…. < I did it again!
so whats your point? Who cares dude!
Do you think you’re being creative by saying “Wankee”?
Honestly, its just how I’ve come to know the most obnoxious fans in baseball.
Sorry, but nothing about my post has to do with being a Yankee fan. It’s simple math. If he accumulates 2 WAR in half a season, how many does he accumulate in a full season?
You can’t seperate your Yankee hate from you opinion, it’s sad.
I can completely separate the two….honestly I don’t hate Yankee fans, or Red Sox fans….you guys just have an annoying distortion of reality….its like you need an intervention.
I’m sorry, I think WAR is a poor indicator of an individuals talent. I dont dislike the stat geeks or traditional scouting…..I think there just needs to be some common ground between the two sides to truly gauge a players worth.
Having said that…I find it friggin comical that one of you guys tried to favorably compare Gardner to Carl Crawford.
You don’t think WAR is a good indicator of talent? YOU brought up WAR to discount Gardners talent…
…
It’s not comical to compare Gardner to Crawford. It’s comical to pay Crawford over $20mil/season, or to assume Gardner couldn’t reach Crawford’s mediocre level of power at some point in his career. They already steal bases at exactly the same success rate, and Gardner displays much better plate discipline.
I think you just hate the yankees. It’s pretty obvious by reading all of your posts, actually.
I didnt bring up WAR, someone else did and I posted Gardners WAR from Baseball Reference.
I agree its stupid to pay Crawford $20mil+ a season….I’m not arguing that point….what I am arguing is the comment that Gardner is as good/better than Crawford. Gardner is less than two years younger and has far less MLB experience…..and those power numbers? Gardner managed 5 HR in a park, and in a lineup, where my Grandmother could probably hit 25+.
Come talk to me when Gardner has a few more full seasons under his belt, I’m less than impressed to this point.
Again, I dont hate the Yankees…I’m just tired of the Yankee fans attitude around here. Why would the Yankees trade with anyone? Everyone in their system is better than any player on any other team!
I used baseball reference:
baseball-reference.com/players/g/gardnbr01.shtml
“If he had played full time that season, he would have had double the plate appearances.
(284 * 2) = 568
With 568 plate appearances (he had 569 in 2010 and was injured), he would project to 3.2 WAR that season. Not bad for your first full year in the majors.”
If only it worked this way!
“”where does he fit in in Seattle?” Batting lead off. Hitting isn’t the only way to get on base, he had an OBP of .383 last year, he steals bases like crazy and plays outstanding defense.”
Except that lousy Ichiro guy is hitting leadoff…. I mean if it were Figgins, I might agree…..but c’mon man
You wouldn’t want two guys who can get on base and manufacture runs? Doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me and I’m not even a yankee fan.
yea that would suck if they ended up with more than one good hitter. forget that
So bat one of them second, that way Montero can have two people to knock in.
Chone Figgins, anyone?
The Mariners have two guys who could lead off for any team in the majors, and Dustin Ackley looks to have a skillset that is suited for batting first as well, at least for his first couple years in the big leagues (though there’s a good chance he develops power down the road.)
Bottom line, they do not need Gardner nearly as much as they need a guy with more power, preferably someone who can play catcher or third base (and Montero is not a catcher). Remember, the Mariners preferred Justin Smoak to Montero, as they should have since Smoak is a better all-around hitter and can play good defense at first, and as a switch-hitter his numbers will be less affected by the dimensions of Safeco Field.
Felix is the best pitcher in baseball, non-Halladay division (and Doc isn’t getting any younger). No team is going to give that up for a redundant outfielder, a future DH who doesn’t fit the park, and a couple pitchers who’s upsides are nowhere near what Felix is right now, especially when that pitcher has expressed a desire to remain with the team for the rest of his career. Don’t forget that prospects are risky, and pitching prospects doubly so. I wouldn’t be surprised if neither Banuelos nor Betances has a meaningful career as a big league starter. Of course, I wouldn’t be particularly surprised if they both end up as ace types (though neither will ever be as good as the once-in-a-generation talent that is Felix), but the point stands that pitching prospects, even top ones, fail incredibly often.
Maybe if the Yankees threw in Gary Sanchez and Andrew Brackman on top of that the Mariners would consider it, but even then it’s doubtful. The Mariners have a legitimate, proven ace to build around, and a lot of good young players coming up to make a playoff run in a year or two.
Of course, if the Mariners aren’t much closer to contending when Felix has a year or so left on his contract, then things change. But why give up one of the game’s most valuable assets for a bunch of mediocre and/or unproven players?
actually the M’s didnt prefer Smoak to Montero. it was actually the opposite. The reason the montero and 2b prospect for lee didnt go thru was the 2b didnt pass his physical. The M’s resorted to the texas trade (which included 3 other more than decent prospects) when the yankees wouldnt add a tier 1 or 2 pitching prospect in place of the 2b.
The same Chone Figgins who had a .340 OBP last year? The same one who has a .326 wOBA over the last three years? That Chone Figgins? No he couldn’t lead of for any team in the majors, some maybe, but certainly not any.
I used Baseball Reference for the WAR…probably should have used Fangraphs.
cmock…..no, the Mariners have enough slap hitters, they need some guys with at least gap power.
Like Montero?
Nah, hes talking about players like Smoak
Yeah, because Smoak is obviously a washout… they should just release him already…..
Ugh… I wish I had gotten to you sooner. It’s pointless arguing with this guy. He responds to everything with an opposite extreme hyperbole. But his winning quality is the inability to differentiate between fact and opinion.
This coming from wasted hours of personal experience…
Gardner is light years better than Langerhans, whom I’m assuming he we be replacing in that lineup were this trade, which isn’t going to happen, happen.
Yeah, except for that crappy Franklin Gutierrez fellow….
I guess the Reds front office members should give themselves a hearty pat on the backs. What a great job evaluating the situation. Whatever. Josh Hamilton could never play another game in his career and the Rangers still won that trade big time. Edinson Volquez is injury prone, too. And he’s mediocre when healthy.
Go look at Volquez’s 2008 numbers and try to say how he is mediocre when healthy. 2009 and 2010 were wastes due to one injury. One injury does not classify someone as injury prone. This year we will judge Volquez and his value when healthy. I hated parting with Hamilton but with every injury I can see why they traded him. Rangers got the better player but will he ever play a full healthy season? Reds got a good pitcher with the stuff to be a 1 or 2 when they were very thin at SP. As it stands today, the Rangers have gotten the better end of the deal but not ‘big time’. If Volquez returns to 2008 form and Hamilton continues to mash this trade is a wash that helped both sides.
Wasn’t Volquez caught with PED’s? Maybe that helped out his ’08 numbers..
If you dig a little deeper you’ll see that in the second half of ’08 his ERA jumped to 4.60, his whip to 1.455. Those are pre-injury mediocre numbers and are in line with what he’s done the rest of his career. The great half a season that earned him an All-Star spot is the statistical anomaly. So far for the Reds, Volquez has provided 5.1 WAR, Hamilton has provided 13.5 to the Rangers. I’d say that’s a pretty “big time” gap.
And didn’t Volquez just hurt his toe or foot or something stepping on the mound? All I really meant by that is that Volquez hasn’t done any better of a job staying on the field than Hamilton.
I’m glad the Reds are doing well though. I thought their success last season sort of mirrored that of the Rangers. It was exciting to see some new teams and new stars emerge for a change.
The Mariners have control of Felix for a while. I think the idea is to rebuild the team, and with Felix as the centerpiece. If the team is still horrible by the time Felix has a year or less to go on his contract, that would seem to be the time they would consider trading him. If any rival GM thinks the Mariners will trade Felix during the next two years, that’s probably just wishful thinking. And if they do trade him, it won’t necessarily be to the Yankees… the Brewers were able to pry Greinke away from KC. Then again, there might come a time where Felix loses patience and starts demanding a trade, but if he likes playing for the M’s, any talk of trading him now is way premature.
This argument between Yankees fans and M’s fan is completely ridiculous. For the record, I am a HUGE Mariners fan. And for the record, I think Mainesox makes the most sense in his realistic way of thinking. Most M’s fans want to trash the Yankees prospects (and vice-versa.) I have read too many times from M’s fans in this thread that Montero isn’t a catcher, the two B’s are gonna wash out and are #3’s, and that Nova and Gardner are garbage. I feel like if the M’s did in fact pull the trigger on this trade these naysayers would change their tunes on these players pretty quickly.
Montero is a HECK of a hitter who can flat out RAKE. ‘WE’ (The M’s) Should be PROUD to have him in ‘our’ system if ‘we’ acquired him and he would instantly be our best prospect. He is anywhere from the 2nd to 4th best prospect in baseball depending on who you listen to. Baseball America has him at #3 and I tend to lead toward Jim Callis, John Manuel, and crew. The kid is 20! and KILLING IT in Triple A. There are questions that he might not stick as a catcher but in all honesty, it’s still way too early to tell….. he’s trying to catch the best pitchers he’s ever seen as a 20 year old. Plus, that bat may be too valuable to leave him as a catcher regardless of how his defense pans out anyway.
Banuelos and Betances are ranked by BA as 41 and 43, respectively. Pitching prospects (especially the young ones) are the most risky and have the highest chance of injury and/or inconsistancy. There is a HIGH probability that one or both of them never gets time in the show. They could also make it up but never figure out how to pitch to MLB batters. I remember how high Clint Nagoette and Travis Blackley were ranked when they were both brought up and both were horrible. However, shoe on the other foot, they both could excellent pitchers…. that’s just the risk you take. Won’t necessarily pan out but maybe they will? Maybe they’ll defend each other in a bar fight and never pitch again?
In regards to Ivan Nova…. the M’s have lots of pitchers in their system as capable as him. I don’t feel like he’s anything special at this point in his career. Brett Gardner is not the God that people have made him out to be, but he is a very useful player…. so far. Crawford he’s not nor will he ever be. Simply because he will never hit as well. Brett Gardner will never hit above .300. But that’s not saying he isn’t useful. His OBP has always been great. He’s a threat on the basepath and a great defender.
The point is, the trade would be a known quantity (one of the best pitchers in the game) for an unknown quantity, but the POSSIBILITY of having some GREAT players. It’s a gamble that could pay off in spades as an M’s fan. I see both sides…. not worth the risk vs. it’s gotta work. The Yankees would definitely be giving up a lot but have always been the “go big or go home” type. If they get desperate (which I believe will happen) look for them to go after a Felix type pitcher over a #3 or #4 type. It’s not beyond the realm of possibility and for the record, I’d have a hard time saying no too if they came calling.
I agree that the M’s definitely want to build around Felix but if anyone wants to try to pry him away, their window is now because the M’s will only get better and will be much less inclined to move Felix.
When & who was the last Yankee prospect to turn out good. Jeter, Posada, etc. Their track record for producing good-to-great prospects in near the bottom. They just don’t care & never have about their farm system because they use all their $$$$ to get players, not prospects. That said, I say if Zduriencik were to trade with Cashman, he should be fired on the spot & the team sold, period. If your trading the best SP in the league to the team with the highest payroll, you want some talent in return. Start with Swisher, then Granderson, then throw in Hughes & maybe Joba, then add Montero. Thats the kind of deal you should be asking for from Cashman if your JZ. Other than that, see ya wouldn’t wanna be ya. Why should Z waste his time with a team that probably doesn’t have a prospect in the 50 (maybe even 100) excluding Montero obviously. Find me the teams with the best farm system then let me know. I know KC is atop the list, who else is there?
Apparently you never heard of Robinson Cano, most who say is the best 2B in baseball
Who they traded. Yeah & Cano is 1 out of what, 100. Not good odds for the bronx boys. Still to my point, they don’t put hardly any emphasis on prospects, they just don’t. Because of their inflated payroll, they can buy whoever & deal with the ramifications if it were to backfire like it has so many times before.
Mike Leake arrested for shoplifting on Monday! Ha ha priceless.. (no pun intended)
This guy gets a 40,000 paycheck on Friday and then Monday afternoon goes into a Macys and tried to steal 6 shirts collectively worth $59.00… never mind trying to steal 10 dollar shirts.. who wears 10 dollar shirts when you are a millionaire?