If Cardinals slugger Albert Pujols hits free agency after the 2011 season, most of the major market teams are expected to jump into the fray for his services. However, White Sox GM Kenny Williams says that his club won't be one of them, writes Chuck Garfien of CSNChicago.com.
“If [Jerry Reinsdorf] gave me $30MM dollars right now, I’m not going to spend it on one guy. Sorry White Sox fans,” the GM said. “But I tell you what, I’m going to take that $30 million and I’m going to distribute it around. My team is going to be better as a whole than it is with one player who might get hurt. Then you’re done. Sorry, that’s just me. And that’s no disrespect to a future Hall of Famer, first ballot, one of the greatest players in history.”
Even though the White Sox currently have a $125MM payroll, Williams says that he and Reinsdorf agree that there should be a salary cap in baseball in order to level out the field. The GM says that a contract that would give one player $30MM per season would be bad for baseball, to the point where he'd be okay with the game being "shut down" in order to correct the issue. After getting all of this off of his chest, Williams immediately tried to downplay his comments:
“Wait a minute, didn’t I say I wanted it quiet, I wanted peace? Let me shut the hell up already. I was hoping no one would ask me that this entire spring training.”
baseballdude
That is good the white sox would have been al central champs and maybe even world series champions
nats2012
I think thats a ploy and the White Sox would be one of the first teams to throw money at Pujols. The owner loves Pujols.
Paul
saying that owners love pujols is like saying priests like the bible. I mean really? Its all about the $$$ any team would take him for a decent price.
MadmanTX 2
Then why weren’t they?
alxn
I think having Adam Dunn trotting around in LF would probably negate most of the value Pujols would bring anyways.
Palehose
It’s too bad that Adam Dunn is going to be the DH for the White Sox and not the LF’er….. Better luck next time.
alxn
And where would he play if they signed Pujols? Use your brain
Palehose
If Kenny had any intention in signing Pujols, he never would have re-signed Konerko. That’s the knowledge my brain is supplying, sir. The possibility that Konerko, Dunn, and Pujols would be in the same lineup is so improbable that it isn’t even worth hypothetically speculating.
Redsoxn8tion
He wants to stay in St Louis so the Cardinals will likely be outbidding themselves until he gets the amount he’s looking for from them
The_Silver_Stacker
outbidding? Going by last week, St Louis was and most likely still low ball Pujols
Redsoxn8tion
St Louis low balled him? Please, these guys play a childs game
Redsoxn8tion
St Louis low balled him? Please, these guys play a childs game. The fact that any player thinks they are worth 20 million a year is a slap in the face to ever person that posts on this site
OrangeCards
Econ 101 …
Mike Bonsiero
It’s called supply and demand. Sure a teacher or a firefighter might do more good for society, but there’s a lot more qualified teachers then there are guys who are the greatest hitters of their generation. And that’s aside from the fact that a guy like Pujols would become an instant cottage industry in whatever city he ends up playing. Successful sports franchises create all sorts of jobs in the communities they reside in.
But more to the point, he’s worth what someone with the money to spend is willing to pay him. You can’t blame a player for taking the best offer available to him just like “every person that posts on this site” would.
Redsoxn8tion
I’m not blaming anyone. If a team is stupid enough to pay a guy $30 million a year, obviously he’s going to take it. I’m sure everyone would. I’m just making the point that these guys already get paid a rediculous amount of money per year.
What ever happened to players that meant it when they say “I want to finish my career with this team”. What they really mean is I want to finish my career here but only if they pay me TOP DOLLAR.
Mike Bonsiero
Free agency happened and guys have a choice now. Before that, changing teams meant that you got traded to a place that you had no control over, often because you weren’t as good as your reputation any more and your team wanted to move on.
Paul
Are you his agent? Were you there at the private negotiations?
Rumor has it the cardinals offered 350 mil and busch stadium, pujols wants 400 mil and stake in busch beer. So ive heard anyways from drew rosenhaus.
Paul
Are you his agent? Were you there at the private negotiations?
Rumor has it the cardinals offered 350 mil and busch stadium, pujols wants 400 mil and stake in busch beer. So ive heard anyways from drew rosenhaus.
Sean
Exactly like they did with Holliday
John Reynolds
kenny williams is a smart man. there should be a salary cap in baseball, indeed!
Kevin Chambers
A bunch of swear words comes to mind, that shouldn’t been said on these threads.
Kaiser_Wilhelm_II
I’m probably one of the few people who DOESN’T want a salary-cap in baseball.
The thing is that having bloated payrolls creates fierce hatreds of evil-empires, rivalries, and underdogs. I hate built-in-equality. You wouldn’t have the whole massive loathing of the Yankees and Red Sox without a salary-cap, and I think that this dynamic is healthy and good for baseball.
It also makes it that much sweeter when an impoverished team like the Pirates or Padres can actually pull one out.
Whenever anyone tries to make anything “equal,” all they really do is make everything and everyone the same.
(As a Cardinals fan,) I wouldn’t mind Pujols signing with the Red Sox or Cubs for 30 mil. That will just make the hatred and drama that much sweeter. For me, that kind of intensity is perfectly healthy. I’d love to go against Pujols as much as I like to support him currently.
BoSoxSam
Kenny Williams is becoming nearly as goofy a public presence as his nutty manager is.
Soxman17
How is he goofy? (Not saying I necessarily disagree, or that it’s bad). Just interested in what you mean here.
SpaldingBalls 2
Think he means by how he conducts himself to the media. The things he says are often ridiculous, and total B.S. That does not make him a bad GM, however, though I do disagree with what he said.
BoSoxSam
What Baba said. I just think he “speaks his mind” WAY too much for a guy in his kind of position. He’s not as outlandish as Ozzie, sure, but he definitely says too much sometimes.
jeffbrown
Newsflash: The Pirates are out too.
start_wearing_purple
“he’d be okay with the game being “shut down” in order to correct the issue.”
Ok, we’re not talking about giving Juan Pierre or Mark Burhele $30M, we’re talking about giving it to a guy who’s probably already a first ballot HOFer. But no, let’s have a lockout. I’ve never really minded Kenny Williams before, never thought he was a great GM, but now I just think the guy is moron.
disgustedcubfan
Kenny would give his left nut to have Pujols at 1st base for the White Sox. He would hit 75 home runs a year at the bandbox that is US Cellular.
start_wearing_purple
Ok, really. I need to wait to get my comment approved because I called Kenny Williams a word that starts with m and rhymes with oron?
thejerkstore
a McMoron?
I like Kenny as a GM but he is at his best when he is M.I.A.
start_wearing_purple
Well it doesn’t look like my comment will be approved so I’ll say this: If Kenny Williams thinks a lockout is the best response to giving $30M a year to a guy who’s pretty much already a first ballot HOFer then he’s ******* *****. See I didn’t say it this time.
Seriously though, shutting down the game is the best answer? Oh yes, I recall how the last strike did wonders for the game, players and owners alike.
thejerkstore
apparently spending 120m dollars this offseason is his solution.
As i said, i think his is a good gm but the microphone is not his friend.
Ryan Murphy
Didn’t think I’d find myself agreeing with “start_wearing_purple” but he’s right, saying you are okay with a lockout/strike says a lot about your intelligence, and what it says would be pending approval on this thread.
Matthew T
I don’t wanna overstep my boundaries, but the language/content filter is pretty “word that starts with i and rhymes with fidiotic”.
HerbertAnchovy
The filter is ridiculous on here, and the mods don’t approve a lot. I posted a response to a story about Dustin McGowan that said that the writer had basically stolen an article from MLB’s Jays beat writer with a link to the story, and they never approved it.
Ridiculous.
notsureifsrs
i dunno you guys, i haven’t noticed much in the way of harsh or arbitrary comment policing =D
Nookster
I blame the difference in DH rule between the leagues here- when the Yanks signed ARod to the big extension they had to think the DH would be a nice fallback position and security blanket. It’s just not fair that the Cards (or Cubs) have to play by different rules but yet still be expected to pay the player an equal contract. Forget 40 yr old, how many 38,36 yr old 1B’s are chugging along at an elite level …
syphercx
I agree with this.
Ryan Murphy
I’ve never thought about that, but it’s a really good point.
elscorchot
sounds a lot like david sampson and larry beinfest when they spoke about it. i totally agree.
Nookster
Let’s all watch Albert Pujols slowly turn into Todd Helton before our eyes, and talk endlessly about what to do with the money coming off the books in 2021.
Dan Jacobson
2 problems with Pujols to the Sox:
1. They can’t afford him. Not enough people show up to the park.
2. Why the hell would he want to go to the South Side lol?
notsureifsrs
that is so surprising that baseball owners and execs want to cap player salaries. i wonder why they feel so strongly about that
FrankTheFunkasaurusRex
strange, it’s like they have to pay them or something.
Aaron X
Why do you keep getting banned and then unbanned?
notsureifsrs
superhero powers. in both cases
OrangeCards
Some drunk idiot just knocked out the power on his street with his car 😉 No big deal …
SpaldingBalls 2
I think Williams is making an obvious point, but what I don’t get is how he thinks you shouldn’t pay $30 million for players. Using the semi-arbitrary $5 Million/ WAR model, Pujols was worth over $35 million in a down year. And that was all at one position. As long as you don’t put negative-value players at other positions, is it not money well spent if you get 7-8 WAR at one position instead of 2-3 at three?
OrangeCards
Because if he gets hurt, or drops off to human like production, you’re overpaying in a huge way.
gursk1989
where were all of these people when rodriguez signed his contract?
Tko11
I dont think they realized the consequences before
The_BiRDS
I could definitely see Prince Fielder in a White Sox uniform next year though.
OrangeCards
Is someone getting traded?
Where are Dunn, Konerko and Prince going to play?
Matt Manzella
Just throw Prince at shortstop, why the f not? /sarcasm
The_BiRDS
How about a Paul Konerko trade… Send Prince Fielder over for a package. Then an extension.
Dan Jacobson
yeah lets trade him after we just signed him to a 3 yr deal. Let’s alienate our best and most well known white sox in the last decade. Makes a lot of sense i guess. Oh and why would Prince want to play for the White Sox haha
The_BiRDS
you use words like “lets”, “we”, and “our”
Then say why would he want to play for the Sox?
Whos side are you on?
OrangeCards
How about a realistic idea …
Alan J
I wonder how many of the people who think Pujols is worth the money will be the first ones whining when hes 5 years older, not putting up the huge numbers anymore, is hurting the team in the field and still constitutes about 25% of his teams payroll.
Unless youre the Cubs and are hoping Pujols can FINALLY get you to a WS in the next few years, hes not worth 10 years at 30 mil per.
Kelvin
Pujols is the best player of the game and one of the best of all time. Now Arod gets 27 per. howard gets 25 and a bunch of other player getting their duce. Pujols deserves better than anybody right now.
who is kenny williams anyways?
lug
But Kenny what if you were to get 1 billiiiiiiiooooooon dollars (pinky to corner of mouth)
1Tough9
I think people are blowing all of this way out of proportion. First off, Pujols to the Sox is obviously not going to happen. Anybody who has thought otherwise probably wasn’t really thinking about it. Adam Dunn and Paul Konerko pretty much have 1B / DH locked up for a while. Where’s Pujols going to play? RF? Out of the three of the players listed Pujols would probably be best there. Regardless it will NOT HAPPEN!!
Matt Manzella
Most unneeded article ever written on this site.
AJCBE
I believe that title goes to “Nationals, Eckstein Have Not Talked Recently.”
mg
Kenny Williams is the master of the smokescreen and he always gets who he wants. This seals it, Albert Pujols will sign with the White Sox! Juan Pierre is keeping left field warm for you Machine.
Kaiser_Wilhelm_II
I also like the idea of any team, even a small-market team being able to become perennially dominant and build an extended dynasty……… rather than it being virtually certain that they will just keep passing the buck, over and over again.
OrangeCards
Not happening for a small market team under the current system. The Rays just watched a fifth of their team walk away for bigger paychecks.
Brian Malenke
What kenny williams would do with 30 million:
Resign Carl Everett to a long term deal.
Extend deals to Juan Pierre and Carlos Quentin, the absolute WORST defensive corner outfield duo in the history of White Sox Baseball maybe even all of baseball.
Trade half the minor league system to acquire Jonathan Paplebon and sign him long term.
Throw more money to light hitting AJ Pierzynski because he “handles a pitching staff”
Hire more international scouts with explicit instruction to skim off the top until all 30 million dollars is recovered.
….or you could have the greatest hitter in the history of the game!!!!
jwsox
A few things aj hit awesomely after the all star break. You might want to check juan’s uzr before calling him a bad defender and why would Kenny throw money at pap when he just non tendered jenks?
Brian Malenke
After the all star break. You basically said, he had an ENTIRE HALF OF A SEASON where he hit like total crap! Probably cost u the division. Tough to defend. Defending Pierre’s Defense? WOW! There is not a team in baseball that wouldn’t run on Pierre on a shallow fly ball to left with 1 out and a man on third. Again, WOW!
Brian Malenke
Kenny Williams is just trying to save face here. He knows along with anyone with half a brain that the Chicago White Sox would be one of the absolute LAST PLACES in baseball Albert Pujols would want to play. Seriously, going from the Cardinals to the White Sox is like tranporting via a private jet to getting mugged on the subway, daily. Williams instead says, White Sox will not pursue Pujols as if they even had a ice cream cones chance in hell at signing him.
the_show
I guess you would know something about muggings since you wear a sideways baseball hat like a gangbanger
Brian Malenke
That’s news to me, you must be blind in one eye.
sourbob
Alternate headline: “Guy who gives out salaries hopes salaries do not go any higher.”
start_wearing_purple
Ding. We have a winner.
df7215
Is Pujols even going to play for the Cards this season or he is already taking offers in free agency?
SLUCARD
I wouldn’t mind seeing MLB adopt a salary cap similar to the NHL. The salary cap/floor system is best for the fans IMO. Royals and Pirates fans have no hope year after year after year, but you can bet just about anything that the Yankees and Red Sox will be competitive. In the NHL, almost every team is playing meaningful games later in the season. In baseball, teams like the Pirates and Royals never really stood much of a chance from the beginning. There are a few bad teams in the NHL, but most of that is because of bad hockey decisions, not financial decisions. Smaller market baseball teams would stand more of a chance if they didn’t have to trade away all of their best players right when they hit their prime.
Cards_Fanboy
The Royals have plenty of money to compete, they just spent too much on players like Meche and Guillen. I think they will get things turned around in the next few years if they spend their money more wisely.
Tko11
Oh God…get out of here with this nhl bs, in the nhl teams can never keep players…I dont watch hockey much but when I watch it I feel as if they have a draft containing every nhl player each year because players switch teams every year. The blackhawks won a few years ago and the next year lost half of their team.
SLUCARD
You could say the same thing about small market baseball teams though because they can’t keep their good players either for the most part. In the NHL, the majority of teams are able to keep their star players. Teams may not be able to keep the whole roster, but the big guys usually get locked up. What’s more important is teams that do trade those players don’t always trade them to bigger markets. Because the larger markets can only spend so much money, those players are going to a variety of different teams instead of just a select few.
Let’s say a small market MLB team drafts a potentially great player. That player takes a few years to develop. By the time that player is productive and in his prime, the team can no longer afford him and trades him to a big market team in exchange for more young players who will take years to develop. By the time those players reach their prime guess what happens. That’s the point I’m trying to make. There are of course exceptions, but this is the case with quite a few teams.
Just my opinion, but I think a salary cap would help prevent big market teams from constantly dominating the league and force teams to be more creative to win instead of just buying up all the best players. I’m not sure that a cap will happen anytime soon in Baseball, I just think a more competitive league would be better for the fans.
Brian Malenke
The White Sox could load their team up with 50 home run guys and they’d still lose the division to the Twins.
lolpods
yep, all those twins world series were awesome.
maxj
Okay, I have an idea…
Salary caps are a bad idea. I already went through one player strike in 1994 which turned me off to baseball for 10 years.
But…What the players association should do along with the MLB is set up a fund. Aside the same kickback money that’s given to underdog teams, create a separate account for home team discounts for 10-and-5 players. I hypothetically suggest the Cardinals should get a 15-20% MLB discount. Pujols not only makes the Cardinals money, he makes the MLB money and THEY should pick up some of the tab.
I’m not a fan of the Cardinals at all, but the fact they could lose their entire franchise over a justifiably ridiculous amount of cash is bad for baseball. I say justifiable because if the Yankees didn’t have Tex, you know they’d sign him in a heartbeat.
That still is just not sports. There is no longer an even playing field. At that point in time, it’s an auction.
Granted, I think this is an American sport and if your team has the money, it should have the right to spend it. However, sucking 10-and-5 lifetime franchise players from their current home team should offer them some kind of home team advantage. That way there’s a hedge for teams less rich than 100 year old East coast teams to stay competitive and the MLB is not stuck with some lousy salary cap.
If the Yankees STILL trump that agreement with the added MLB benefit given to the 10-and-5 player’s team? …Play ball.
At least then there’s hopefully no baseball strike.
Just a thought.
tomymogo
I hate the Yankees, and I hate the fact that my team has no way of competing on the FA market for big name players.
Paul
Would you also hate paying what yankees fans pay for their tickets?
OrangeCards
A reply to Paul:
Blue Jays – Sox now? Well, for one, the Blue Jays are currently rebuilding and are trying to reduce payroll. However, when the Blue Jays are ready to compete in the next few years, a cap on the spending of their competition would be of more importance.
I’ll lay out the argument one last time and perhaps get a laugh in your attempt to refute it.
The Red Sox and Yankees both currently enjoy a significant financial advantage over the other teams in their division.
-If you limit their spending, to say 130 million, you have also limited some of the advantage they have over other teams.
– If you’ve somewhat limited their advantage, you’ve given their competition more of a chance to compete.
– If you’ve given the competition more of a chance to compete, you’ve created a more level playing field.
Now, please, try to tell me any of this isn’t true …
(Go ahead, try. And I’ll answer whatever question you think I’ve dodged.)
crxnug
the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, todays markets it sad that a team can go out each year and buy a championship, or every year just have the big market teams competing every year, some will say “look at tampa bay and at florida” they won and look at thier payroll, that only happens beacause you cant compete for so many years and get draft picks,
then once you can afford your team they all sign with the big market teams, its like other teams are farm clubs for the yankees and boston….and so on, once your player develops and is due for the money you lose him. look at florida and look at what tampa bay had to do this year
Its hard for other teams to draw fans , tv revenue, advertizing $ when you know you have little chance of winning each year.
every other sport has a salary cap, i believe baseball needs this. if this keeps up baseball will keep losing fans,
Paul
You for reals?
If I am a gm go ahead, pay 126 mil for werth, pay 146 mil for crawford, I will sign my guys to extensions until they are 32ish and get their best years, you can overpay and get 4-5 good years. esp if they are a pitcher I am happy to see you lay out that contract. As for everything else, read my post right below yours sorted by newest first.
OrangeCards
The Royals may have more top prospects but that doesn’t mean they have some advantage that other teams can’t do. All teams have the opportunity to scout, draft, and develop amateur talent. All team. If all teams can do it, it isn’t an advantage.
There is no advantage to being a small market team.
There is an advantage to being a large market team.
Paul
IF there is no advantage, then how do small market teams win? I mean they dont have any advantage right? How come the yankees/sox/cubs/mets/dodgers/phillies arent winning 70% of the time?
Red sox and yankees get players in free agency. Most players enter free agency after or at the end of their prime. Go ahead, take them I Will do fine with what I have scouted and without hte pressure from fans of having to go out and buy everyone.
OrangeCards
So what is the advantage to being a small market team?
Paul
Draft picks.
OrangeCards
Every team has draft picks. If every team has it, it isn’t an advantage.
So, what is the advantage to being a small market team?
Paul
Compensation picks? Ever heard of those? Unprotected picks that get picked up? Draft order? Theres a reason why david price, strasburg/harper dont fall to the yankees, its because the yankees probably didnt have a pick in the first round!
Every team also has a first basemen, some are better. And please answer my above post.
OrangeCards
Every team gets compensation picks if they lose premium free agents. Again, if every team gets them, they aren’t an advantage.
Draft order is determined by your record the previous year, not the size of the market. Unless you’re trying to say the size of your market ditates where you finish in the standings?
So, again, what is the advantage of being a small market team?
Paul
Every team gets them?!?! Actually only the teams that lose the free agents get them, so its available to every team, but not every team gets it…..
So do you honestly believe baseball does not have a level playing field? I mean really? With all the numbers I have thrown out about records, about champions you are still sticking with it being level because in theory you dont think it should be but in practice it actually is?
OrangeCards
Excuse me, I mispoke. Every team CAN get them, including large market teams.
You’re right, 10 of the 30 compensation picks are going to the Yankees, White Sox, Red Sox, Phillies and Twins.
That doesn’t sound like something that is exclusive to being a small market team …
So again, what is the advangtage to being a small market team?
Paul
Their draft picks…..I didnt say big market teams NEVER get them, just that small market teams get more of them and thats an advantage. But ok, run your team with a 200mil payroll and buy everything and fail, see if I care.
I really dont know what else I can do to convince you that the playing field is level, numbers, statistics everything but you cannot grasp it.
I am done arguing with you. The fact that you keep coming back proves that you are just as angry and pathetic as me, have fun toiling in obscurity in the al east, not because you guys dont have money, or because you dont get good picks, but because your organization is just bad overall and cannot create a competitive team and whenever it tries to spend money it gives contracts to sosa/palmeiro/tejada. Enjoy.
I will not respond to anything else, I have said everything I care to say so I am done. If you really really want it to keep going, print off all my responses and keep making the same argument over and over because I have addressed everything you have brought to light so perhaps by rereading them 300 times and having an imaginary debate you will learn.
OrangeCards
You don’t even understand what a level playing field is. Go reread the link I provided. Google “level playing field.” Something, because you aren’t grasping the basics.
Draft picks aren’t a small market advantage if every team gets them. Compensation picks aren’t a small market advantage if a third of the picks are going to six large market teams.
Your argument holds no water, so you’re right, you are done.
OrangeCards
Check out this link that defines level playing field. A lot of our disagreement stems from your failure to understand the term.
http://www.businessdictionary dot com/definition/level-playing-field dot html
So, are NBA teams all operating under the same rules? Are MLB teams? So which one really has a level playing field?
OrangeCards
The Twins really aren’t a small market as they support a payroll over 100 million.
The Rays? You just saw their team get dismantled because they couldn’t afford their players. If they had the ADVANTAGE of a large payroll, this would not have happened.
Paul
But the twins…they were small then gave out extensions..attracted…fans…….and….wow are you unable to comprehend anything outside the east?
And they got a ton of draft picks!
Yes, there is an advantage to being small market and its the draft picks!
You want to level the playing field, fine I am mad that you guys have showalter and we have leyland, GIVE ME HIM NOW!
Its sports! The playing field is as level as it will be the cap will not make as much of a difference as you seem to think.
Answer this question
IF there is no advantage, then how do small market teams win? I mean they dont have any advantage right? How come the yankees/sox/cubs/mets/dodgers/phillies arent winning 70% of the time?
OrangeCards
How do small market teams win?I don’t know what kind of answer you’re looking for here?They build their farm system for years in the hopes that one day, that talent will develop into productive major league players. If it does, they add a few veteran pieces and hope they can win while their window of opportunity is still open. Ya know, before their core becomes too expensive (Garza) and/or leaves for bigger paychecks via free agency (Crawford, Pena, the entire bullpen …).Then they blow up the pieces and start again.This is hardly an advantage. If anything, you can call it an organizational strategy. Any team can employ these ideas though. As we’ve established, if every team can do something, they don’t have an advantage in that particular area.
Paul
So, getting players during the prime of their careers due to your advantages in scouting, because that is what your organization commits to therefore its typically better then other teams, is not an advantage at all? REally>!?!?! You are getting players at their best for a fraction of what they are worth and securing a future.
I am sure the rays are crying about losing relievers and getting a ton of draft picks. Thats an advantage!
As stated, where do you want your equal the playing field bs to stop? When every team is around .500? Draft after every season? Hey your first basement is better then mine gimme? Its sports! Different teams have different advantages, if you dont think the scouting and development team provides an advantage to teams then you are crazier then I thought.
Also come back to the real world. You here? probably not. But anyways take the yankees, yea they can buy the planet we know that but their fans expect them to win a ws every year and spend a ton of money to do it, even if its not wise. For instance they signed soriano and lost a draft pick, cashman did not want this and it probably wasnt the best move, but the owners knew the fans needed something after not winning. The big money teams tend to throw money around due to fan pressure to perform, the small market teams dont have that nopnstop scrutiny, heck torre was fired for not winning a ring and gardenhire is praised even though whens the last time he won a playoff series?!?!?! Point is, big market teams are required to spend money by the fans and sometimes that really screws them because of this win now mentality.
crxnug
paul,i dont think you know what your talking about, your reasoning about draft pick is so short sighted, do you think the rays would prefer to keep there players instead of having to rebuild , do you think the Rays fan are jumping for joy the have all these draft picks. out of those draft pick a few will make it to the big, most draft picks never make it up, if they do and have a few good years and the Rays cant afford them they will leave to a big market team AGAIN,
even free agency is a feeding frenzy for the big market teams, they get all top talent with the small market teams pick through the scraps left over.
Paul
What rays fans?
OrangeCards
I see a lot of text, but I don’t see an answer to my question regarding the Bears scenario.
Is that a level playing field?
(With the NFL salaries not being guaranteed, the Bears could just cut any player that is no longer product and do it all over again with new FA … )
Paul
You are trying to compare apples to oranges, and I said I would need to see the results play out and analyze it by a case by case basis, use baseball.
OrangeCards
There’s a pretty obvious answer but you’re too stubborn to admit it.
OrangeCards
It’s funny, when the NBA winning percentages seem convenient for your arguments, it’s apples to apples.
But when I use the NFL, it’s apples to oranges.
Paul
Now I know you are joking.
Comparing simple percentages based on games played to determine the disparity in competition is much easier then comparing the economics in both sports.
Do you know who jay cutler is? Denver sent him to the bears for a bunch of draft picks and some young talent. Denver had a bad year this year, but the bears had NO picks in the first 2 rounds last year! Denever had all their picks! Denver screwed up in drafting a qb, however they will be back and it will be with the young talent thanks to that trade, in fact EVERY sports person said that denver won that trade.
Also, there are examples in baseball about trades that better compare due to the economics. The only reason I could think of as to why you would go out of the very sport we are talking about is that you simply have no argument.
OrangeCards
I was bringing the point back to baseball, but you wouldn’t admit the obvious that the Bears spending 250 million while the rest of the league is capped at 130 isn’t a level playing field. It obviously isn’t level.
Paul
Dollar amounts do not have to be level to have a level playing field, all you need is a disbursement of talent and as long as you still have that then the league can sustain itself(like mlb) even with teams spending way more.
To me, parity=level playing field and baseball has that.
OrangeCards
Check out this link that defines level playing field. A lot of our disagreement stems from your failure to understand the term.
http://www.businessdictionary dot com/definition/level-playing-field dot html
So, are NBA teams all operating under the same rules? Are MLB teams? So which one really has a level playing field?
Paul
In reply to OrangeCards
Yes I am aware I am feeding the troll, but frankly you are so misguided and just will not let this go so this is my final post ironing out my points.
You are acting in this entire thing that spending a ton of money is a huge advantage, I have already shown you why that is not the case at all. It does help, however its a bandaid and will not last that long. For instance look at the Phillies farm system, its depleted! However they constantly have to spend money because that is what is expected of them.
Spending more money does NOT equal championships, and as much as you are talking about it it sounds like you are really believing this. Look at the giants, no big free agents played a role in their post season run, granted huff was a good FA addition but he came at a bargain bottom of the barrel price. The giants are built to win long term spending less, heck even the rays are still in a good position because of their sp!
You act as if money is a gigantic advantage and yes it is an advantage but it really isnt insurmountable and forcing the red sox to spend 30 mil less, and the mets to spend 20 mil really wont make a difference at all for anything.
You talk about leveling the playing field, however this is sports the playing field is never level. Your 1b is better then mine, your sp is better, you have an advantage here because you picked higher because you finished with a worse record. And you can say “EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO A 1B” but I can say everyone has access to money and a fanbase, therefore it is level you just dont capitalize on it. However I am not going to say that(although it makes sense from your point). However with your “everyone has access thing” I can say “I didnt have access to player x because you drafted him therefor you had an advantage picking over me”
Each team must utilize its advantages to win, money is a great asset to have but it alone does not buy you rings. You can talk about the yankees, but jeter/posada/pettitte/mo/cano were all home grown and played key roles in the ws. You build teams from within and fill out in FA.
My main point this whole time is that money is as much of an advantage as more draft picks because frankly it doesnt make that big of a difference and ends up costing your team in the long run. What team would you rather be in charge of right now for the next 3 years the yankees or rays? The rays, obviously. The yankees have given out gigantic contracts to sign FA and will be paying very very large amounts of money out to players well past their prime. That is what happens when you rely on free agency. Also you rarely get prime years, look at the cubs! FA is very very risky and can come at a cost, which makes throwing money around not as powerful.
I brought up the compensation picks to humor your theoretical world where small market teams cannot keep stars. So in your theoretical world compensation picks only help small market teams who cannot sign their type A/B free agents.
You can cry foul at the problems but look at the stats I threw out about records, is it really that bad? The talent is dispersed throughout the league and just about every time has a shot going into the season. You can say that about football and baseball, thats about it. Therefore, I think the whole spending thing is way overblown and your proposed cap will really not accomplish anything but cut player salaries.
So go ahead, cry about the big market red sox giving up 2 really good prospects and a high risk/reward guy for agon but it works out. The padres cannot support a payroll higher then 45 mil, ok lets say we do a better job of revenue sharing and it goes up to 60 mil, still they cannot sign agon. If there was a cap do you think they would have gotten those prospects? no way! So in the mlb world it actually works out, they get better prospects to fuel their team and the red sox get their guy. Again cry foul all you want, but the proof is in the pudding. Deals like this allow small market teams to be competitive through smart moves.
Money does help, but not as much as you make it out to be and your cap would really not accomplish anything.
OrangeCards
I’m really not going to go in circles with you again if you can’t accept the basic definitions of “level playing field” and “advantage.”
Again, there is no advantage to being a small market team. Draft picks? Nope. Compensation picks? Nope.
A level playing field means teams are operating under the same basic rules; not parity in the league.
If you haven’t comprehended these concepts by now you’re just not that bright or more interested in “winning” the argument than thinking rationally about it.
Paul
Lol you are truly a lost cause, I put all the time into illustrating how money is not that big of an advantage and the disadvantages to going throw free agency(which would be an advantage to small market teams) but you fail to see that and believe that.
And yes in your world compensation picks would be an advantage because its something only the small market teams got.
Teams are still operating under the same rules, everyone has access to money based on their fanbase.
Again, the problem isnt as big as you seem to think given the parity 🙂
OrangeCards
You didn’t dispute or answer any of my questions. You rambled on and on about things I’ve already told you aren’t true. You STILL don’t understand what the words “level playing field” and “advantage” mean.
A level playing field is independent of the results of a season. It simply means all teams are operating under the same basic rules. This isn’t happening in the MLB if you have one team spending multiples of the average team payroll. You can’t dispute this. It’s a fact. A few teams have the ability to spend 150+ million and the rest of the league doesn’t.
Compensation picks are NOT a small market advantage. Perhaps it would be if only the bottom ten markets COULD receive them, but this isn’t the case. In fact, 6 large market teams are getting 1/3 of the compensation picks this year. So, please, tell me how that is an advantage?
Baseball teams have always finished generally between .400 and .600. Look at the history of the league. It’s the nature of the game of baseball. This was the case well before free agency and these spending disparities existed.
Paul
Ok, you are obviously not serious at all and now I am really done. I thought if I laid it out nice for you you would take the time to read it, its obvious you didnt. However if I am wrong and you did read it I am truly distraught because that means you lack any type of reading skill and cannot comprehend anything. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply did not completely read it. I refuted everything you have already said, but here is it nice and small. Now I am done. Do not bring this up on other boards whenever I make a pathetic orioles joke about them signing roiders or why they would trade away an asset. I dont see you chime in when I make the same comments about the yankees/red sox or even my tigers. Only when I joke about orioles you take it personally and come at me with “der you cant read”. Whatever, read my other posts before you think its a personal attack on you, its possible I am just making fun of the team. Oh before you go all “YOU CORRECTED MY SPELLING” I corrected that guys use of your instead of you’re as well.
Things that arent true, right so the yankees arent bogged down with a lot of big contracts and neither are the cubs. Ok! Free agency isnt the best place to get talent, nope guess im wrong there too! Really? I mean really. Look at how championship teams are built man! Even the yankees dynasty wasnt built on FA it was built from within! Best way to get guys is through trades and draft picks and develop that talent so you dont have to pay 20 mil a year to a player in his mid to late 30s.
And like I said, sports are not level playing field, you have the first pick I have no 1st round picks. Thats not level, give me. Oh but we all have access to the first pick based on record, we also all have access to money based on a fan base to support the 150 mil, you just have to reach your fans. For instance Michigan is the worst state in the country in terms of unemployment rates and yet we still sell out games consistently and break 3 mil in attendance. The unemployment rate in detroit is around 30%, and in michigan overall its about 15%. If you reach out to the fans they will come. Oh dang did I just have to refute that AGAIN?
Like I said, in your world where small market teams cannot hold on to their players it is. You really didnt read what I typed in terms of compensation picks. In your world no small market team can hold on to their star, so their stars walk.
Right, which only further proves that the spending disparities do not create a competitive imbalance which is the main goal of any sports league, to make sure the vast majority of the teams can compete and its not a one sided league. Which hold on…also proves my point that its not that much of an advantage and is equivalent to getting the top pick in terms of advantages.
So if it aint broke why fix it.
OrangeCards
You’re done because you know you have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation.
To pretend as though you weren’t the one that brought up the argument on the new thread is delusional at best and perhaps hints that you have more deeply seeded mental problems of which I cannot help you with on a message board.
But feel free to answer the question, smart guy; How are compensation picks an advantage of small market teams if six large market teams are getting 1/3 of the picks? In case you can’t do the math, the large market teams are getting a disproportionate amount of the picks.
Or what is level about a few teams spending multiples of the average team salary?
You still have no clue what the terms mean and it’s evident in everything you type.
(And please, don’t delude yourself into thinking your reading or logical reasoning skills are something to be lauded. They’re not and you’re fortunate I’m the only one still reading the drivel you’ve posted.)
Paul
“But feel free to answer the question, smart guy; How are compensation picks an advantage of small market teams if six large market teams are getting 1/3 of the picks? In case you can’t do the math, the large market teams are getting a disproportionate amount of the picks.”
Umm pretty sure I said that I was talking about your fictional world that you have created, not real baseball. Seriously. I said that 2 times.
And again, I didnt say it was level for team spending, I said it was NOT level and there is an uneven playing field in many aspects of the game but it all works out to good results and parity.
You have ignored just about eveyrthing else, in a court of law I would win because you ignored them which means you are admitting to them, the only things you have now are petty insults and misreading what I typed.
Have fun!
Paul
Oh, and I brought up an argument about orioles signing roiders, but ok thats related to small market spending. The other thing, you have more of a case but I was using your reasoning to answer your own question as to why any team would make that trade. But ok.
OrangeCards
I didn’t say your Orioles and steroids comment was a jab at the other discussion, but you made SEVERAL other comments that obviously were. And then you tried to pretend as though I was the one who brought it up again. You’re seriously crazy, man.
Paul
Several? Really? I made what 4 comments total, only one would be small/big market comment. The rest were answering questions or making jokes. Wouldnt a team thats given up trade everything? Cliff Lee?
OrangeCards
Fictional world that I have created? What in the world are you talking about? What drugs are you on / not on?
I asked you earlier what the advantage is to being a small market team. You responded with “draft picks.” I said that if everyone gets draft picks, and they do, then that isn’t a small market advantage. Your next reply was “compensation picks.” Again, if everyone gets them, it isn’t an advantage. And if the large markets are getting a disproportionate amount of them this year, it certainly isn’t an advantage to being a small market. So for the last time, what is the advantage to being a small market team?
Now you’re admitting it isn’t level playing field because of the spending disparity? It took awhile, but I guess you’ve finally figured out what the term means. If you acknowledge spending creates an uneven playing field, why not cap that spending at a relatively high figure so that a few teams can’t go crazy with their spending? This could easily include some type of addition revenue sharing system so that players salaries aren’t cut and other small market teams can afford to sign some reason FA talent, or keep their homegrown stars more easily.
I can’t help but laugh at your understanding of the legal system. I’ve answered numerous of your team specific questions before and wasn’t going to do it again. And can you get more hypocritical with the petty insults comment? I really wish the entire conversation were together so you could see the string of irrational arguments you have attempted.
Paul
Lol ive dropped the petty insults that ive started 🙂
As I have explained, the spending does not create as big of an advantage as you seem to think, as much as draft picks(said that 10 times) and cutting it down to 130 will not do anything. The league is fine. I am talking about baseball in general, I have never said spending was not an advantage, and if you want to equate that to level playing field then so be it. When I talk about level playing field I talk about ALL the advantages and disadvantages and balance them out. Not just one issue. However like draft picks, money is available to ALL TEAMS!
Draft picks are an advantage to teams that finish poorly, the rays have way way way more draft picks then the yankees however not because they finish poorly but because being a small market they couldnt resign their guys so they have a way way better farm system and will for years to come, heck the yankees dont pick in the first round, and I dont thinkt he red sox do either, although they might get the tigers unprotected pick unless it goes to the rays for crawford.
Dude, if in a complaint you fail to answer a question you are admitting to the question. This is pretrial. Its in the FRCP.
OrangeCards
You dropped your petty insults? You are delusional kid. In your comment prior to accusing me of making petty insults, you did the exact same thing yourself. Hypocritical much?
And like I said, if the spending isn’t much of an advantage as you claim, what is the harm is capping it at a relatively high figure like 140 million? If that extra 30-70 million doesn’t mean much, why are you so insistent on the large markets maintaining this imbalance?
The Yankees gave up their first round pick but will get a compensation pick in the supplemental round for Javier Vasquez. The Red Soxs get a first rounder from both the Tigers and the Rangers. They also get two supplemental picks. Hard to argue that’s a small market advantage when the Sox have 4 picks before the second round.
And just because you’ve decided to alter the definition of level playing field to fit your argument doesn’t mean it’s true. You’ve argued over and over that MLB has one because teams finish between .400 and .600 when this has nothing to do with the term.
We’ve establish spending ability is the advantage of being a large market. So, what is the advantage to being a small market? (Hint: It’s not draft or compensation picks.)
LOL, I was unaware you thought your arguments were anything close to legal documentation. And when I go back and look and your “final” explanation of your argument, there really isn’t any questions that I can answer. There are only rhetorical ones in which you answered yourself in the following sentence.
I’ve got questions of my own that you’ve “admitted to” because you haven’t answered them.
1. What is the advantage to being a small market team?
2. If the extra 30-70 million the large markets spend doesn’t mean much as you claim, why are you so insistent that we maintain this imbalance? IE, if that spending doesn’t really matter, why is it necessary?
(I feel it makes a significant difference and would like to see it capped a bit)
Paul
I fail to see a petty insult, just facts about the orioles. I was seriously questioning if you had read my post, not your mental state.
1. Dude, come on really. I gave disadvantages to teams who only go to FA, that has to be an advantage for teams that done spend.
You can say draft picks arent an advantage, but they are I am sorry and holding onto prospects IS an advantage that big market teams do not have because they constantly need to spend and trade to keep up with the pressure of their fans. Just a different way to play the game. If picking first in the draft isnt an advantage, or having a ton of picks for finishing with the same record(as the rays do) then I really dont know what else I can give you. Farm system is an advantage to small market teams who keep their in tact instead of blowing it up to get a rental. HEck the yankees were going to send monetoro for a half season of lee but the marines backed out last minute. All of this has been stated.
2. Because it allows player salaries to grow and the offseason to be more trading and teams to play their style easier, whether it be getting a farm system or spending money. Why restrict one advantage and not the other? It will hurt the players more then help the game.
And again you have access to money, as to big market teams with draft picks, but like the money/picks one obviously has more, a more developed farm system, and more aging players on terrible contracts because they cashed in playing for small market teams then stink in their 30s.
Dude, level playing field I look at everything and it all balances out. You equate it to advantage only, balance out all the advantages. The small market teams can compete just as well because their farm systems are simply better and they have prospects coming up and lock up their talent long term. Milwakee is not a big market so they are locking up their good players long term and will get 2 first rounders for prince.
And yes I look at the final results all around the league and really dont see how there is a problem in how it is set up, especially when your beloved small market teams are pocketing the money instead of putting it towards competing.
I wont go into your theoretical world because it would require me to insult you, but one point would be when .700 to .300 is more even then .600 to .400.
I think what you are missing is the talent being spread out no matter what. Most teams are still competitive, the big market teams dont have all the talent, although they do have the most disappointments. If the big market teams were truly able to just keep buying all the best talent then you would have a point but frankly there were what 3 top tier players on the FA market this year? Thats if you count werth which I am hesistant to do. So You have 4 teams bidding for them, 3 for lee, because no team has that much in their farm due to trades they made for the big ticket fill so well you know what you can finish this analogy 🙂
OrangeCards
1. You still don’t get what an advantage is. If every team is capable of doing it, it isn’t a advantage. What you describe are disadvantages to building a team based around free agents, not disadvantages to being a large market team. What you describe are advantages to building a team through the draft, not advantages to being a small market team. I understand your points there and I agree with them to a certain extend, but any team can build through the draft and therefor it is NOT an advantage that is privy to certain teams. Spending 150+ million is.
One thing you’ve ignored is that the Yanks and Sox both have top farm systems. Boston has been in the top 5 in draft spending despite picking in the bottom of the draft each year. It sounds like they have plenty of access to premium talent because of their ability to spend on over slot picks that smaller markets can’t afford to draft. The Yankees and Sox have each poured over 100 million into international talent the last decade while several small market teams haven’t approached 20 million. Again, the rich get richer …
2. A cap wouldn’t kill the off season as you’d like to pretend. Actually, if more teams were able to pay a player like Agon, the Padres may have received a better package.
I said that if you were to create a cap it could also include more revenue sharing so that player salaries aren’t cut. You choose to ignore this point as usual …
And you’re smoking some good stuff if you’re going to try to tell me that the Rays would rather have 2 picks than keep CC. You’re delusional if you think the Brewers are likely to get a comparable talent to Prince with their two picks.
You mention owners pocketing their money instead of spending it on players but you also argue that spending doesn’t help all that much. So which is it?
The Rays, as phenomenal as they draft and develop players, aren’t expected to win the division this year solely because they couldn’t afford to keep any of their stars. Sure, they’ll get draft picks and come back at some point in the future, but the Yanks and Red Sox will go back to dominating the division in the mean time.
Paul
“You still don’t get what an advantage is. If every team is capable of doing it, it isn’t a advantage”
You are correct, every team can get draft picks, every team can also spend money. So by that definition neither is an advantage. By MY definition BOTH are advantages because of the quality and quantity. Are both advantages impossible for the teams to access?? NO! fans..money…build up…twins as example…
The ONLY advantage large market teams have is spending, where is that apparent? FREE AGENCY! TEAMS THAT ONLY GO TO FREE AGENCY ARE SCREWED! Dang man really? Teams that trade away their prospects are SCREWED which is what big market teams typically do! Look at the phillies!
Does anything except for signings happen in the offseason? Maybe? umm lets see hold on…let me…wait…starts with a T…drawing a blank. Guess its all that junk ive been smoking.
Kei Igawa, dice k….Yankees top farm system? Really? THey didnt have enough to meet the high demands for lee/halladay or anyone else they got. They have some good prospects in A ball, but I betcha they will be traded and the majority will not play in the majors.
Again with the petty insults, for your information I have never smoked anything aside from a cigar. I will be honest, I skimmed that post, the first line was just so out there that it is obvious you will never budge one inch no matter what.
I am done. Period. I will continue to make yankees/tigers/red sox/angels/orioles jokes no matter what.
OrangeCards
No, money isn’t an advantage for all teams. No matter what the Rays do over the next decade, they cannot create a local fan base 8 million strong. They can’t create the revenue streams of the YES network over night. Only you would pretend this is possible.
You can make all the jokes you’d like. But when you answer something completely out of context, you’ll get blasted for it if you’re trying to troll my posts. And if you want to make obvious references to this discussion, I’ll tell you the same thing I said before.
Paul
“No, money isn’t an advantage for all teams. No matter what the Rays do over the next decade, they cannot create a local fan base 8 million strong. They can’t create the revenue streams of the YES network over night. Only you would pretend this is possible.” Lol they said the same thing about the twins, only worse they were gonna be contracted 🙂 Cannot is a word you need to eliminate, it tends to be an absolute term.
Completely out of context? Roiders signign with the orioles? Why teams sell off their starters? Why the yankees have a 200 mil payroll and 1 starter? Ok, guess those were all out of context.
Sorry, that was what the 4th time I said I would stop? Although in this post I dont directly attack the salary cap, more or less you dismissing teams from growing revenue and a fan base. Its possible man, make the postseason a few times and maybe the orioles will do the same!