WEDNESDAY, 8:59pm: Paul Hoynes of The Cleveland Plain-Dealer says "there's not much meat" to the rumor about Carmona and Sizemore potentially going to the Nationals. MLB.com's Bill Ladson says he's heard the same (Twitter links).
TUESDAY, 7:52pm: The Nationals have had "conversations" with the Indians about Fausto Carmona and Grady Sizemore, reports Phil Wood of MASNsports.com. Another source tells Wood the Nats "are working on 'a number' of other trades," as well.
Nats GM Mike Rizzo has been open about his frustration at not being able to acquire a top-flight starting pitcher this winter, but acquiring Tom Gorzelanny and adding Carmona would certainly ease that disappointment. Washington could well have been one of the several teams that were interested in Carmona in December, but the Indians are in no hurry to trade the right-hander given that he's on an affordable, option-heavy contract through 2014.
Sizemore is set to earn $7.5MM this season and the Tribe have an $8.5MM option on him for 2012 (with a $500K buyout). Cleveland would like to unload that contract, but after two injury-plagued years, Sizemore's trade value is at its lowest point. If the Indians accepted a buy-low offer and then saw Sizemore regain his All-Star form elsewhere, that lack of maximum return for Sizemore would be a damaging move to the rebuilding Tribe.
From the Nationals' perspective, they clearly have money to spend and can afford a $7.5MM risk to see if Sizemore returns to form. Carmona is obviously the safer and probably preferable option due to his team-friendly contract and the fact that he could post even better numbers in the NL. The question is whether the Nats have the prospects that Cleveland would want for either player, since Washington's farm system isn't known to be very deep.
In other Nats news, Wood predicts Alberto Gonzalez may be designated for assignment to make room for the newly-signed Alex Cora. Gonzalez, a utility infielder, posted a .578 OPS in 198 plate appearances with Washington last season.
just curious because i keep seeing nats sign new people, but, do the nats mean business this year??
They mean business in 2012-2013. If they really meant business this year, they would have gone all in and kept Dunn or at least Willingham, two guys who could certainly help their current team win now over the options that they have replaced them with and would have communicated to free agents that they are serious. The types of guys that they are trying to acquire now are people who have a realistic chance of contributing in 2012 at the very least. Gorzelanny is arb eligible in 2012. LaRoche is a two year deal. For the, their window is once Strasburg is ready to pitch again until Ryan Zimmerman becomes a free agent after the 2013 season.
Gorz is already arb eligible, he settled for 2.1 mil, hes under control through 2013, I dont know what your on, but send me some of it.
Thanks on that one. Keep forgetting that he’s arb eligible through 2013.
Although if RZimm signs a Tulo extension, their window gets longer, with several years of Strasburg, Harper, Zimmerman, and Werth. Not to mention Desmond, Espinosa, Ramos, and Zimmermann, although none of them have really proved themselves yet.
Takes two to tango. I don’t think Zimmerman is that eager to sign an extension yet. He would like to know that the Nationals have a chance to become a winning team before he signs. Seems to me that there are other teams with the funds who might have a better chance to win that he’d prefer to sign with. I realize that he’s a UVA guy from Virginia so I think he would ultimately like to stay here, but I also think that he’s real tired of losing so much. He also wanted Dunn to stay, and I think that if the front office trades guys he likes and doesn’t win there’s a chance that he might not stay.
I am a Nats fan, and I do not quite understand why people keep saying their ‘window’ is 2012. Why would they keep Dunn and Willingham is Dunn is a defensive liability and Willingham wasn’t much better and couldn’t stay healthy? They let Dunn walk because he is a DH, plain and simple. Willingham I was sad to see go but still, he could not stay healthy and could definitely benefit from the DH concept. How is bringing in Jayson Werth, Rick Ankiel, trading for Gorzellany, bringing in veterans like Jerry Hairston and Alex Cora, and now even showing interest in Fausto Carmona, a former 19 game winner and Grady Sizemore, who can hit 30 homers and steal 30 bases, not showing that you mean business in 2011 and beyond? I get it, Stras is injured and on his way back, Harper needs to develop a little more, and the rotation is suspect. But if the Nats can manage to bring in Carmona, Sizemore, or BOTH, you cannot say this team will at least make some noise! They are in a really tough division, and I would not be surprised with 3rd place, and a wild card threat. Unless Atlanta or Philly falls off, and the Mets and Marlins are as bad as expected, this will be a 3rd place year at best or 4th place at worst. Call me a blind fan, but I don’t see their ‘window’ beginning at 2012
I honestly feel Rizzo has the team in reverse rather than drive. The Nats lucked into (or earned through being pathetic) SS and Harper.
What’s Rizzo done since becoming GM? 1.Grossly overpaid for Werth–making sure every FA will hold off signing with the Nats unless they get a similar bloated deal. 2. Passed on signing Dunn for 3 years for 36-39 million wheras the ChiSox thought he was worth 56 million. 3. Now cleaning house of the “great prospects,” particularly pitchers, HE was responsible for wasting draft picks and small trades on.
I have always liked Sizemore, guy has crazy talent, still young, just unfortunately mixed up in some injuries the past couple of years. If the Indians are indeed stupidly shopping him before he has a chance to increase his value, I would love for my Mets to try and buy low on him.
The Indians aren’t ‘shopping’ anyone. They’re listening, but unless they get blown away by an offer (which they wont be) they’re not moving anyone. Carmona could still be around for them when they are able to compete (should the prospects they received in the Martinez, Lee and Sabathia trades start performing) and is a solid front of the rotation guy when he’s not messed up in the head.
I don’t see why they want to move Carmona. Sizemore makes some sense if they are really trying to go bare to the bones with payroll, but Carmona doesn’t make much sense to me. Cost controlled guys who just made the all-star team (albeit with some luck) seem to me the kind of guy that you have to hold on to.
Yeah, the Tribe wont trade any of the ‘key’ members of their lineup / defense away. Contrary to popular belief, they don’t just trade off talent on a whim.
“they don’t just trade off talent on a whim”.
Of course not……they wait until it’s the last year of their deal.
Mets need to rebuild and hang on to their prospects
What prospects? Fernando Martinez?? lol. Their only decent prospect I can think of is Wilmer Flores.
Is Mejiia still a prospect? Now that Minaya and Manuel are gone I think that he can evolve into a quality starter.
…all the more reason they need to hang to what they have…
I thought the Mets weren’t increasing payroll? There’s a whole lot of conversations that they could have gotten in on this offseason if they were willing to take on the 15M in salary or so that it would take to get Sizemore.
I wonder what it would take to acquire both. This wouldn’t be a salary dump by any means despite Sizemore’s recent injury issues, so I’d imagine a deal would be something along the lines of:
Sizemore and Carmona for Derek Norris, A.J. Cole, and Jordan Zimmerman.
On the other hand, the Nats probably see Zimmerman as their future #2 starter, so that might not work.
Rizzo won’t give up starting pitching prospects, methinks. A deal could happen involving:
Norris
Kimball/Rodriguez/Carr (pick 2)
Espinosa/Desmond (pick 1)
Rizzo, I think, is pretty firm on not wanting to give up young starting pitching for older starting pitching.
Way to steep. A decent comp for this is a deal the Nats made earlier for Josh Willingham. Willingham is more of a known quantity than Willingham. Less years on the contract but a better price than Sizemore. The Nats got a good reliever prospect in Henry Rodriguez and a fringy outfielder in Corey Brown. No elite prospects went to the Nats. Norris is not going anywhere. Espinosa or Desmond is not going anywhere in this kind of move.
willingham is probably an equal quanity to willingham
Josh Willingham might be a good comp for Sizemore. But when you throw Carmona in there, you have to presume that they’re going to include a decent positional prospect.
Personally, I have a hard time how this kind of deal will include Carmona. I think that they are discussing both guys, but in the unlikely event that a deal is done Sizemore’s a better bet than Carmona.
willingham is probably an equal quanity to willingham – I can agree with that.
Any deal the Indians make needs to make sense. Their greatest needs are probably starting pitchers and some power bat OF’ers.
They have Santana so they don’t need Norris.
They have Asdrubal Cabrera thru at least 2013 so they don’t need Espinosa or Desmond.
Kimball and Carr are both 25+ yo relief pitchers who don’t even rank as top 10 prospects and I’m not even sure who Rodriguez is?
If you guys want Sizemore and Carmona, a relatively young and affordable mid rotation guy, then expect to give up at least 2 or 3 top 10 prospects. The problem is, the most attractive prospects based on needs are all from 2010 and can’t be traded yet (Sammy Solis, AJ Cole, Robbie Ray). I don’t see a match.
Norris is not a sure bet to stick at catcher at all, on the Nationals, Indians or otherwise. Rodriguez is the major league relief pitcher they got in the deal with Oakland.
Sizemore and Carmona aren’t worth that, IMHO. Sizemore hasn’t had a year worth his contract since 2008, and Carmona’s 2011 was his first year with an ERA under four; he hasn’t had a sub-4 FIP since 2007, when he had a 3.94. You don’t know what you’re getting with either of these guys.
Sizemore’s stock is ridiculously low right now, he is coming off a year where he batted .210 in 33 games. Sizemore could come very cheap because of that, probably for a Double-A prospect or two. Carmona is coming off a better year, which was 13-14 with a 3.77 ERA, after a 2008 and 2009 to forget, as in those two years he went 13-19 with a 5.88 ERA combined. They can and will probably come together in a prospect-laden deal, and I believe that Marrero and Morse/Bernadina or even Nyjer could go off the Major League squad because if Sizemore comes in I don’t see any spot for Morgan, and honestly I don’t quite see why Morgan was traded for looking at his track record. I don’t see a lot of big names being sent, but one or two could go to the Tribe. But as for Espi or Dessie, absolutely not.
I wouldn’t want to give up J-Zimm in a deal for Sizemore and Carmona. I was thinking something more along the lines of Bernadina, Norris/Ramos/Flores, Detwiler? and maybe marrero as i think he would be best as a DH in the American League.
Detwiler would be a good piece to move, since the rotation is kinda plugged up. Low leverage though.
I don’t think Detwiler has much value right now. Even he admits this is a make or break season because he hasn’t come close to making it this year. He’s not going to make the Nats this year out of Spring Training. Why would the Indians want him?
That puts him in the same league as Sizemore. No one knows what Grady will do coming off that injury. Not that the Indians would want Detwiler necessarily, but the Nats definitely can’t give up solid prospects for Sizemore. It would be insane to pay for his 2008 numbers in prospects and assume his ridiculous contract.
This is delusional and htis is why the Nats can’t make deals. They aren’t going to move Norris unless it’s for a known quantity. They aren’t going to move Cole as PTBNL. Jordan Zimmermann was only going to be moved for Greinke. They would have included him in a Garza deal to get that deal done before they included him in a Carmona deal.
If the Nats are going to trade from anywhere on their current roster, it would be a guy like John Lannan. Indians get a guy that’s cheaper that Manny Acta is familiar with. Nats get a guy with a higher ceiling. I don’t think Lannan is enough for the Indians in a Carmona deal, and I don’t think the Nats would want to trade pitching for an outfield risk.
If you want one of our 3rd/4th outfielders (Morse, Bernadina, Nyjer Morgan) plus a reliever plus an okay prospect like Marrero than it might work, but I don’t know enough about the Indians system or about what they are looking for. Seems to me that if they are serious about putting Sizemore on the market somebody could outbid the Nats.
I hear ya…not advocating giving up Zimmerman by any means, but guys like Morgan, Bernadina, etc. are garbage. I can’t imagine Lannan has any value for the Tribe.
This is the year that they want to get the payroll up to 90 mil, now that the farm system is in much better shape, and we have young core position players to build around, I knew when we signed Cora, that Desmond or Espinosa was going to be moved.
No way signing Alex Cora means they are going to part with Desmond or Espinosa. Cora is going to be a Veteran guy to perhaps mentor those 2 and be a positive club house presence. They might deal 1 of those guys for some other reason but Cora is not an everyday player at this point.
Cora should be a coach at this point.
That’s probably one of the reasons they signed him, to be a mentor for Espinosa and/or Desmond.
I hope he enjoys the weather in Syracuse. Only reason he might make the club is that Alberto Gonzalez is griping and Rizzo likes clubhouse presence. At least Desmond and Espinosa have a better injury history than Reyes and Castillo so we’ll be less likely to see his subreplacement self on the diamond.
So if the Nats trade for Casey Blake, does that mean Ryan Zimmerman gets moved?
WOW! Gotta give the NATS an “A” for effort this offseason!!!
And a C for “Can’t convince anybody good besides Jayson Werth to sign or not veto a trade”
The diss list: Cliff Lee, Zack Greinke, Carlos Pena, Derek Lee (for the friggin’ Expos), Brandon Webb.
I guess Jerry Hairston, Jr. chose to play for us. Adam LaRoche signed because Derek Lee seigned and there was nowhere else to go.
Nats are not a premier destination until they actually sniff .500 or 3rd place in the division and they don’t have the prospects to get the kinds of guys they really want without creating new holes on the diamond.
We’ve got a competent to good GM, but there’s a still long way to go.
They had the prospects to get Greinke.
And the Yankees couldnt get Lee, Texas couldnt get Lee, Pena went to the Cubs to pad his stats in a hitters ballpark, Greinke didnt want to go to the BlueJays, no one went to the Angels, Jeff Francis picked the Royals over Yankees, this happens, we got players, and stop saying we, your not a Nats fan, and if you are take a Xanax or something, its ONLY baseball, get a life.
I am a Nats fan, but I tend to be harder on my team than I am on other teams because I know that there’s a good chance I overvalue some of the guys within the Nats system.
Yeah but if your a Nats, you dont sound like one, I normally have to defend my team from everyone else who likes to bash on them, but I would never be the one doing the bashing.
Souldrummer, the Nats had a trade in place for Grienke, and he has a no trade clause and used it on the Nats. Nats2012, you have to be realistic here, i’ve been watching the nats since 2005, and I am a Nats fan on Long Island. You have to call a duck a duck when you see one man. I do not quite understand why some of the free agents chose their destinations, but the Nationals do need to finish closer to .500 and 3rd place or 4th place and compete for most of the year, as in past the first week of May, before they begin to seriously look at DC as a good landing spot. I believe they addressed 99.9999% of their needs this offseason: They needed a big bat to replace Dunn, CHECK(Jayson Werth), they needed a better defensive first baseman, CHECK(Adam LaRoche), they needed to improve the bench, CHECK(Cora, Hairston, Ankiel), they needed pitching help, I won’t say check here because they may still bring someone else in, but Gorzelanny is a starter, and is decent. There is not question the Nats will be better this year, but we as fans must be realistic.
I think that I’m realistic, and I view this year as consolidating prospects and implementing Rizzo’s philosophy with trades and free agents that are willing to come here. Greinke’s veto is a lot of what i was focused on in the “diss list”. I understand Greinke’s decision to veto that deal to play for a team closer to winning in Milwaukee where he would not be asked to carry as much of the rotation load.
pena went to the cubs because they were the only ones who offered him 10 million(you can thank jim hendry for that, another great signing and great use of the cubs money by him)
only baseball?
ONLY BASEBALL!?!?!?!
Good sir, do you know where the hell it is you are?
And Derrek Lee went to Orioles, not the Expos, because he preferred the American League.
I thought it was because he preferred the MLB.
Out of all those on your “diss list” the only one worth being upset over is Grienke. Everyone acts like Lee is the 2nd coming of Sandy Koufax but combining the price along with his age by the end of the deal and a back that may or may not act up IMO he wasnt worth the contract for a team like the Nats. Pena would have been nice but not for the money that he got and LaRoche gives you close to what you get from Pena both offensively and defensively. Lee didnt fit. He would have been another RH bat in a predominantly RH lineup. LaRoche fit better cause he provides balance. They already have a Webb on the roster in Wang. Why waste the money and a spot in the rotation on a guy that isnt a long term solution. Id rather give that spot to a young guy (Maya comes to mind) to see what i have as a ML pitcher instead of paying another guy to rehab.
Are they a marquee destination? no. Are they a place that is on the upswing? very much so. Strasburg will be back. Harper will get there eventually. Barring any extensions i could see them being very much in on some FA pitchers over the next 2 off seasons. Guys like Mark Buehrle, Edwin Jackson, C.J. Wilson, Jered Weaver, and Zack Greinke are all guys that are potential FA over the next 2 years. I expect Washington to be a definate threat in 2013 if not next year.
This year i expect them to finish above the Mets in the division and keep climing up the ladder of respectibility
Good point. Didn’t realize how snarky I sounded last night. Maybe it’s because I was hoping one of our other prospects besides Harper made the Top 50 list of MLB Network. You’re pretty much right on the guys that chose not to sign with us. It’s not that I really liked any of those guys that much. I’d just like to see our GM be able to execute his plans as best as possible. I think that there were more moves to be made after Werth, and that those moves weren’t as successful. It puts a lot of pressure on LaRoche and Werth to start well and for the team with all its young pieces to have a better record than last year since we have a real fragile fanbase for the most part.
It’s alrite dude. Not so much snarky as you were rational. I agree with most of the stuff you said. That being said, I still think we have a very good GM on our hands. People don’t realize how hard it is to bring in quality players when the squad you inherited were a bunch of misfits put together by a Jim Bonehead Bowden.
Given what was out there this offseason there really wasnt much more that Washington could have done. The names might have been different but the end result would have been the same. Getting Werth was a shock to a lot of people including myself. Teams like the Nats have to focus on building a team much in the mold of TB. Yes they have more resources but the idea remains the same. The base is there with guys like Zimmerman, Werth, Strasburg, Harper, Storen, Espinosa, Desmond and their 2 catching prospects. They have more resources than a normal bottom feeder team like Pit, Cle, KC, etc. The problem is getting the top tier talent to come to Washington. There are quite a few guys who would be great fits in the next year or 2 and i think the stigma that was associated with them is starting to go away. They got it started this year. Now they need to keep building around what they have.
Jury is still out on that. And besides you compare Rizzo to the other clowns they have had and he does look promising.
But they are selling wolf tickets. They don’t have a prayer this year. No Strasburg. Maybe Harper if he is rushed. Zimmerman and Werth we know.
The other thing we know is the Phillies and Braves are better.
You should get an “A” for believing that. Maybe they will lose only 88 games this year.
We cant trade AJ Cole, he was just drafted this year, its too early.
probably no this year since stasberg is out, but next year they will have him and zimmerman atop the rotation with solid 3-5 pitchers and ryan zimmerman and jason werth at the 3-4 hitters with bryce harper being ready late that year to the next year as a call up. AS a cubs fan, i can say that the future is looking bright for the nationals especially with the money that they are willing to spend.
Even if nothing happens, Im just happy they are willing to spend money, with the talent we already have and alot of contracts ending next year like Marquis and Pug, we can really do something.
Then can get both by doing 3 team Trade.
No team in baseball has more to gain by signing Albert Pujols. Save your money Rizzo! It will be $300 million well spent!
If he unexpectedly gets to free agency, the Nats will field an offer that will result in Pujols leaving money on the table.
I don’t know about that. The Nationals have shown that they’re definitely ready and willing to overpay in years and dollars. I think they can at least match an A-Rod contract, if not more.
I like what you guys are smoking, but I have as much chance of being the Nats owner as Albert Pujols does of playing for the Nats. You go from the wonderful fans and “Key to the City” (anybody see that onion sketch?) of St. Louis to go the Nats? We’d have to give him 400M dollars.
No team has more to gain by signing one of the few legitimate superstars in the sport. The Nationals are currently an unbranded team in a very young market. Adding a decade of Albert Pujols to a team that already has two of the highest rated draft picks of all time could lead to the kind of multi-generational fanbase that the Yankees, Redsox and Cubs share, and it could make the DC area one of baseballs biggest markets.
I just don’t think that Cardinals are going to let him get to free agency. The Nats should make sense to a lot of free agents, but they had to overspend to get Jayson Werth. I think that they want to get closer to .500 with their cost controlled assets and see what Harper and Strasburg will bring to the table in 2012 before they go all in for that kind of cash after Werth.
It would be better for baseball as a whole for Pujols to play his entire productive career for the Cardinals. If he doesn’t though, I would love to see him on the Nats. And that’s coming from a Braves fan.
Don’t see us parting with Desmond or Espinosa…maybe marrero instead?
Marrero will go if it happen with Justin Maxwell, plus more but I know the Indians like them.
I can see us parting with Desmond. Desmond is the inferior of the two. If we DO move him, we could always slot Jerry Hairston JR at 2nd, move Espinosa back to SS and wait for Lombardozzi to develop. It would be worth the fill in if we could get Carmona and Sizemore.
It’s not worth parting with a guy the Nats have pegged as an everyday cost-controlled middle infielder for Sizemore. Your giving up a cheap middle of the diamond guy who enables you to spend at other positions for a guy with serious health question marks. Remember the Nats window is 2012-2013. Trading Desmond or Espinosa has to be for an impact, close to all-star guy (which is why they might have been included in that vetoed Greinke deal) who you know will be with the team through at least 2013.
Marrero has minimal value unless it’s a straight salary dump. He’s been an okay hitter with bad defense for awhile now and he’s a notorious slow starter. Not looking at his numbers right now, but I don’t think he showed much more in Winter Ball either.
I really hope the Nats can trade for Sizemore. He and Zimmerman on the same team would be sweet. It would remind me of when the Cardinals has consistent GG/SS winners at 3rd and CF with Edmonds and Rolen.
Yeah, imagine
Sizemore CF
Desmond SS
Zimm 3B
Werth RF
LaRoche 1B
Bernadina LF (then Harper when he’s ready)
Espinosa 2B
Ramos C
You know something Chris, I would love to get Sizemore, but even without him our lineup looks good.
yeah it does, but not good enough to compete with the top teams like the phillies, cards, giants etc.. especially because of our pitching.
Agree with this. Desmond and Espinosa still have a lot to prove. Desmond has to prove his defense is good enough and that he’ll maintain his second half offense. Espinosa has to show he can make enough contact to justify his power. Ramos has questions about his bat and contact. LaRoche is meh all the time. Nats consider Bernadina a platoon player, though. He’s expected to platoon with Morse (or maybe Jerry Hairston, Jr. some) this year.
no way that Harper ever sees LF…he’s got an 80 arm
Kinda wishful thinking for all those prospects to all pan out to be big bats, the two most likely to live up to the hype are, Ramos and Desmond.
Mark, I think Sizemore’s trade clauses are important to point out. According to Cot’s:
# if Sizemore is traded:
* he receives $0.5M assignment bonus and his salaries for remaining seasons increase by 10%
* 2012 option becomes a player option (buyout forfeited if Sizemore declines the option)
This makes a big difference, actually. Sizemore as a one year $7.5MM gamble is one thing… as a two year $18.1MM gamble, he’s another level of risk entirely.
Look what we paid Werth, 18mil looks like nothing for 2 years.
One flashy offseason signing and now Nats fans are all “Money ain’t a thang” just like Yankee fans?
Sheesh.
The Lerner Family: Billionaires on the loose!
Isn’t this something that can be negotiated in the return for Sizemore, though? I think the Nats are willing to pay money. I think that they are more interested in the second year than the first, otherwise why not keep Josh Willingham (I know that they say they like defense?). To me, if the Nats are just paying money to see if Grady Sizemore can be a competent big leaguer it’s worth it. For the Nats, I think the biggest issue is will he be able to play centerfield when he eventually recovers (if he recovers).
Too much money in the Harper and Werth corner outfield slots to take a flyer on him while you’re waiting for Harper.
Because Willingham is coming off an injury, and the pieces we got back help in trades like this, you have made 15 comments and zero sense.
morgan, maxwell,martis for them both lets go !
Maybe the Nats could finally get rid of Justin Maxwell. I heard Manny Acta likes him, so who knows…
I expect Manny Acta to be able to acquire him for free on Opening Day. Maxwell’s out of options and the Nats have acquired Jerry Hairston, Jr. and Rick Ankiel to get in their outfield mix on the big league squad and got Corey Brown in the Willingham trade as a Maxwellesque guy that they haven’t had years to develop a distaste for.
Souldrummer you sound like an angry Met fan with a high payroll and only 10 more wins than us last year, you should get a life.
I’m actually a Nats fan. I comment on Federal Baseball (Nats SBNation site) all the time, and I follow the Nats minor league boxscores from Hagerstown on up pretty regularly as well as doing my best to participate in other prospect discussions. The Nats have improved a lot and our certainly heading in the right direction. I like the direction that Rizzo has taken the team. But our farm system is top and bottom heavy right now and doesn’t have guys that are easily tradable. You can trade guys like Desmond, Espinosa, Ramos, and Zimmermann, but when you do that you create other holes elsewhere on the diamond while losing cost controlled years and taking on salary. As a Nats fan who sees the potential value in these guys, I’d rather have them at a cheap price than spend for two years of Grady Sizemore, who is either free to go if he succeeds or an expensive detour if he does not.
On the other hand, you’ve got guys from this year’s draft class where they finally went overslot for guys after being too conservative with guys like Trevor Holder and AJ Morris in 2009 while they were saving money for Strasburg. Harper, AJ Cole, Sammy Solis, and Robbie Ray are guys that they would like to see in their system for awhile before they consider trading them.
So basically our tradable assets are Derek Norris and a bunch of meh kind of prospects. That’s why it’s hard for us to do deals right now, and why I hope that the Indians are trying to just dump Sizemore’s salary and why I don’t know how a Carmona deal would work.
souldrummer is a very knowledgeable nats fan…just because he isn’t full of sunshine and sparkles doesn’t mean he’s a mets fan in disguise. i don’t agree with him a lot of the time, but he does know his stuff…maybe you should brush up on yours.
and he’s not lying about being on federal baseball all the time either.
I can careless if hes on federal baseball, alot of the stuff hes saying makes no sense.
Alright, I did see souldrummer on federal baseball and he is a Nats fan, so I do apoligize, he just talks a little different then most fans do about their teams.
I understand where you’re coming from and I realize that some of the things I say come from a different perspective. I’m glad when people take the time to consider what I say and share evidence when they think that I’m wrong. Some of my opinions evolve from people I dialogue with who are pretty dedicated bloggers of the team.
I’m always concerned that sometimes people act from a lack of information when it comes to the Nats. Not really a problem here, but when it comes from knuckleheads on ESPN that can get grating.
I can’t see any reason why Sizemore would be available right now. His value is at an all-time low, plus he’s a major injury concern. Cleveland would be dumb to trade him right now, but if he is available…damn i’d love Toronto to try and pry him out of Cleveland for pennies on the dollar (AA seems to be good at these type of deals too). That being said, I really really don’t see Sizemore moved until he comes back and at least provides some proof that he can be healthy and productive.
Didn’t the Nats trade Sizemore when they were known as the expos?
ea under a totally different management and GM who is out of baseball for that very reason
Good god, that is the deal of horror for all Nats fans and exhibit A why I hate Bud Selig who was Omar Minaya’s puppeteer at the time. Omar thought the team was going to be contracted and traded Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon and a prospect who didn’t make the bigs.
Lee Stevens was a major part of that deal.
Even better! And Tim Drew, the lone prospect the Expos got back was subreplacement in his 24.2 IP of 6.20 ERA FAIL.
carlos quentin (and possibly dyan vicedio) for sizemore pretty legit deal….choo can more than likely play CF moving carlos to right or left…gives the indians a legit power threat who knows the AL and sizemore has always played well in the cell(i know i know against sox pitching but if he is healthy him hitting in the cell is very nice) he can for sure lead off for the sox(like he always has preferred and move pierre to #2(contact and speed make it a good 1-2 plus he can bunt) i would say actually a pretty decent trade for both teams
I can’t see two AL Central rivals hooking up for a deal like that. If the Indians were to trade a fan favorite like Sizemore then I doubt they would want to see him 18x a season.
edit: was supposed to be a reply. Copied, pasted then deleted sorry ladies and gents
They are trying to shed payroll, why would they take Quentin. (I have to get off this site, or at least stop reading comments, between souldrummer I cant take anymore)
throw cash into the deal then to make it work… carlos +5 mill and maybe then but doubtful dyan
The indians know they are not ready to compete now, they want prospects.
Indeed. A Quentin deals makes 0 sense for the Indians.
ok so dyan+jordan danks+pitching prospect not named sale
It’s not about shedding payroll. The guy isn’t expensive at all. It’s about his ability to stay healthy. He’s only owed 2/$16 mil so he’s not breaking the bank. If you look at the Sabathia, Lee and VMartinez deals, they were done because they were headed into FA and wouldn’t be extended more so than for just salary relief. If Sizemore is traded it won’t be a salary dump.
I have a hard time believing that if Sizemore is on the block that the Mariners are not in the middle of discussions. He is exactly what the Mariners need to spark the fans interest. Young, has power, plays defense and if healthy one of the best players in the game. Besides being local, he would supply the middle of the lineup bat that the Mariners needs and would also fit nicely into LF. With the Mariners already having a CF, a move to LF could help him stay healthy. I also think that the Mariners would pay more for his services than other teams because the odds of Grady opting out of a contract with his hometown team is very low and signing him to an extension down the line might be easier since most free agents don’t want to come to Seattle. If he is traded, whatever team that gets him is taking a risk and in Seattle if the risk does not work out correctly Jack Z will get a pass because he tried to go get a local guy. It is amazing how much the previous GM still gets criticized for passing on Tim Lincecum even though a lot of other teams also passed on him.
Can you imagine if we took Heyward or Bumgarner in the 2007 draft instead of Detwiler. This trade wouldnt even be necessary is that were the case. oh the power of hindsight.
Anyway, both of these guys would be an obvious upgrade over what we have now. If Grady could go back to his previous ways then he will be a beast. But at 29, with injuries over the past two years, you have to expect the power and speed to be diminished. At this point, Carmona is far more valuable in a trade and because of his youth, track record, and importance to the team will probably demand a Garza-like package from the Tribe
I think that there are a lot of teams that can say this. Detwiler actually doesn’t totally bother me because at least he was a college guy who had some stuff and was a left hander. Yeah, we picked the wrong lefthander and would have been better with Bumgarner. A lot of people passed on Heyward because I think that the Braves scouted him better and people were pitching around him heading into the draft. Both Heyward and the Braves wanted to stay local.
The bigger things that bother me are the high schoolers that we wasted early picks on like Marrero and Burgess as well as the Aaron Crow. Draft him or sign him, but don’t let him walk and lose time and quality when you have to draft a signability pick.
Bowden’s draft history with high schoolers really bothers me, and it bothers me to no end when I read quotes of him touting guys like Burgess that he drafted on his radio show after the Gorzelanny trade.
The Aaron Crow no-sign was a brilliant move. The guy didn’t want to be in DC and was not the kind of personality you want in a young organization. Now, he’s struggling in KC’s minors and might become a reliever anyway.
In exchange, we got Drew Storen, who is already contributing in the bigs, was much cheaper, and is a better personality.
My point is that part of your job as a GM is to have some idea from the agent ahead of time about what a ballpark figure is for the guy to sign. Storen is a fine player, but we’ve already seen his ceiling. The Nats need to get to the point where they are the team with the GM shrewd enough to scout starters like Bumgarner who will sign. Personally, I think it was a lose/lose for both sides. I think that Crow would be a better pitcher today if he had substituted a year of independent ball with inferior coaching and competition with being put on a good development plan right away. The Nats could have had the leverage to get a pick better than Storen if they’d chosen someone else.
All things considering, that’s Bowden’s mess not Rizzo’s, and I’m glad Rizzo made a safe but positive pick with what he had to deal with after Bowden’s foolishness. Now he just needs to commit to letting Storen maximize his value through serving as closer this year.
I don’t see how moving either player is a smart move for the Indians, especially Sizemore.
Great player but hasn’t been healthy lately. And hasn’t played for like a year and a half I think
I’m glad there isnt much meat, i Sizemore’s value is too low and Carmona has such a team friendly contract. I would say both players are relatively well liked here in cleveland as well.
I also think since Carmona and Sizemore are youngish veterans that aren’t being paid exorbitantly, that they are worth keeping around all of the young players they have in Cleveland.
They really shouldn’t move either one of them unless they get an offer they can’t refuse.
LOL @ the Nationals.
Nats better take it easy on the moves, maybe for next years open market… wise man once said “spend your money wisely”.. Not sure if the whole Werth deal is gonna pay off the way they want it to. Dont get me wrong, Nats are on their way to become contenders but Werth is in his prime right now and is only gonna weaken. By the time Bryce Harper comes up and gets comfortable and Strasberg reappears Werth will be pretty old and getting closer and closer to being Werthless… Ha, I had to.
Isnt he the same age as Albert Pujols, so I wouldnt talk like that until you see the contract it takes to get Pujols. Or I would love to see Albert as a Cub.
Please dont ever again compare Werth with Pujols, not at the same level.
Its comparing their age, not the player. So please listen to comment. lol
Actually Pujols is slightly younger and Werth is nothing compared to Pujols.. so I wouldnt talk like that about King Albert. Besides we had Pujols of a HUGH discount for the past 10 years and whatever he gets is well deserved.. Overpaid doesnt even begin to describe what the nats gave to Jason Werth. Do the nats even know how to negotiate? Looks like they just slammed a hugh check on the table and said “We’ll Take Him!”
middle infielders like espinosa.. catchers with bum shoulders and the scar to prove it, soft tossing left handed starting pitchers.. older relief arms.. these are the types of things the Indians are going to be satisfied with.. the “this could be a salary dump” reasoning is flawed as the Indians are down to where they wanted to be.. The Indians are listening..not acting.. Conspicuously absent are names of Nats players and prospects that represent an overwhelming offer & what it will take to make a deal happen… There is nothing here.. The Nats can’t give the Indians what they want, and the Indians don’t want what the Nats want to give.. Impasse?.. yep..
The Nationals had the farm system to get Greinke, and that was to the Royals who have a farm system like no other in baseball, so you dont think they can get an expensive injured outfielder and a number 3 pitcher at best on a really good team. lol
Nats2012: w/r to the Greinke acquisition: The Royals found themselves in the unenviable position of having a front of the rotation, recent former Cy Young winner tell the Royals front office.. he wanted out. Do you want a player on your team that doesn’t want to be there?..The Royals could have said.. “..we own you, so, stfu and go pitch” and they’d be perfectly within their province. The Royals chose to honor Greinke’s wishes and sold him to the Brewers for what many have claimed is a mediocre haul. (the Mets would argue they gave an even more mediocre haul for essentially the same situation). The same situation does not exist for Fausto and Grady.. so the comparison isn’t salient.
The Nats would not be willing to pay the price for what the Indians want, an overwhelming offer (think J & R Zimmermen & PTBNL <=== the Nats would be OUT OF THEIR MINDS to make a deal like this..). The Indians would not be interested in receiving what the Nats want to offer for these two players (espinosa, ramos, lannan, et al…) as stated above.. this discussion is a non-starter where neither party desires or is compelled to make the square peg fit the round hole..
The Nats had the prospects to get Greinke and that was to the Royals who have the best prospects in baseball, so you dont think we could get an injured outfielder and a number 3 pitcher at best on a good team. lol
The question is do they have the prospects the Indians need to get a deal done?
Obviously Stras and Harper are not in the discussion.
More than likely J. Zimmerman and Storen are off the table too.
Carlos Santana negates the need for Norris and Ramos. You move Norris off of C and his value decreases because his bat may not project as elite at any other position, despite his great OBP numbers.
Asdrubal is under control for 3 more years so Desmond doesn’t seem like a fit.
Jason Kipnis is moving quickly up the ranks and should be @ 2B by 2012 so Espinosa may not be as appealing to them.
All that factoring in, their biggest needs are starting pitchers and power OF bats. The 3 best minor lge arms are all 2010 draft picks (Solis, Cole, Ray). At best, they can be PTBNL. Not sure how many there can be in 1 deal.
Based on that, who would the Nats offer to make them trade and sell low on their best and most popular player who isn’t hugely expensive and a decent #2/#3 who is signed to a team friendly deal?
Well I would think that lower lever fringe prospects would be part of any deal
The big problem is unless I really do not see the front end of the deal coming from the Nationals, I would think a 3rd team would have to be part of the deal.
The you may see where a Norris or Ramos go to the 3rd team to get the rest of the players the Indians would want to make this deal happen.
IMO the below 2 would be part of the middle of the package
SS Adrian Sanchez
OF Randolph Oduber
The end of the deal would be the PTBN later which would be Solis, Cole or Ray of which non are able to be dealt until 1 year from their signing date but they can be included as part of any deal just as a PTBNed player.
Who wouldn’t be interested in a All Star, gold glove caliber CF? Especially one who has leadoff and middle of the lineup experience. And did have success in the postseason.
If he is available, which he is not, than I would think every team but a few would inquire about it. When healthy he is as good as gets vs. right handed pitching. He is unique, he could bulk up and hit in the middle of the lineup or cut down his swing and be a lead off man again.
His injuries are blown out of proportion, since the Tribe collapsed in the ALCS (up 3-1) against the BoSox they have been rebuilding. I believe he was placed on the DL prematurely, the organization has been out of contention the past couple year and he was banged up. Even with him 100% they were coming in the 3rd at best in that division.
Plus they wanted to know if Trevor Crowe was ready to play everyday.
Who doesn’t want prospects. Most of the elite farm systems are operated by elite MLB clubs. Cleveland has a great farm system. So I am not sure they are better by dealing him. He doesn’t make big money and his upside outweighs the potential return. Not to mention in like 6 months if he his healthy and the tribe is still struggling. Than put him on the block and see what you got.
1. Royals (50)
2. Rays (47) +
3. Braves (44) +
4. Blue Jays (38)
5. Yankees (34) +
6. Reds (33) +
7. Rangers (31) +
7. Indians (31)
9. Angels (30) +
9. Phillies (30) +
9. Twins (30) +
I’d love to see the Nats acquire both guys. The price would be costly but if they can give up AA and AAA prospects along with not adding Zimmerman I don’t see why not.
Uh…because the Indians won’t accept?
Uh…because the Indians aren’t interested?
Yeah, and the Indians would hang up faster than Stras’s shoulder popped. Sorry, this is all a pipe dream unless you’re willing to give up Harper or 3 to 5 of your top prospects which I don’t think are even good enough to get Sizemore let alone Sizemore AND Carmona.
Harper? He’s not even in the conversation. The Indians definetly want at least 2 quality guys but even they wouldn’t think of asking for Harper.
Actually, the Indians probably want reporters to stop making up trade rumors.
And I agree Harper isn’t going anywhere. But it’s nearly as safe a bet to say Carmona and Sizemore will open the season with the tribe and not be traded, probably not even discussed in trades either.