Eight player trades don't come along very often, but the Rays and Cubs finalized one today. Tampa sent Matt Garza, Fernando Perez, and minor leaguer Zach Rosscup to Chicago in exchange for Sam Fuld and prospects Chris Archer, Brandon Guyer, Robinson Chirinos, and Hak-Ju Lee.
Garza, 27, posted a 3.91 ERA with 6.6 K/9, 2.8 BB/9 and a 35.8% ground ball rate in 204 2/3 innings for the Rays last year. He heads to arbitration for the second time this winter and is set to receive a raise from the $3.35MM salary he earned in 2010.
Garza joins Ryan Dempster, Tom Gorzelanny, Randy Wells, Carlos Zambrano and Carlos Silva in a crowded Chicago rotation. It wouldn't be surprising to see Cubs starters appear in trade rumors before long. If any team could afford to spare a starter, it was the Rays, who still have David Price, James Shields, Jeff Niemann, Wade Davis and Jeremy Hellickson. The return from the Cubs doesn't impact Tampa's Opening Day roster, but it adds depth to the Rays' already impressive farm system.
Baseball America ranked Archer first among Cubs prospects this offseason while Lee placed fourth and Guyer placed tenth. Archer, a 22-year-old right-hander, made it as high as Double-A last year. The starting pitcher posted a 2.34 ERA with 9.4 K/9 and 4.1 BB/9, limiting opponents to 6.4 H/9. The Cubs acquired him from the Indians just over two years ago in the Mark DeRosa trade. Jim Callis of Baseball America notes that Archer is a year away from the majors and could be a closer in the future (Twitter link).
It's not a great time to be an up-and-coming shortstop in the Cubs organization, as Starlin Castro figures to be the team's shortstop for years. Lee, who was born seven months after Castro, is also a highly-regarded shortstop. The native of Korea has a .299/.370/.375 line with 57 stolen bases in two pro seasons. When Baseball America ranked Lee sixth among Cubs prospects before the season, the publication described him as a gifted hitter with the tools to make difficult defensive plays.
Guyer, who turns 25 this month, posted a .344/.398/.588 line in 410 plate apperances at Double-A last year. He has played all three outfield positions in his four-year minor league career.
Chirinos, who turns 27 this month, has infield experience, but has primarily been a catcher in 2009-10. He hit .326/.416/.583 with 18 home runs in the upper minors last year.
Fuld, 29, has a .252/.368/.344 line in 155 big league plate appearances spread over three seasons. The outfielder has spent most of his six-year pro career in the minors, where he has a .285/.372/.405 line.
Perez, 27, has a .234/.301/.351 line in 107 big league plate appearances. He hit .223/.280/.299 in 426 plate appearances at Triple-A last year.
The 22-year-old Rosscup was the Rays' 28th round selection in 2009. Last season, he registered a 2.64 ERA with 8.3 K/9 and 1.8 BB/9 for the Rays' Gulf Coast and Single A affiliates.
ESPN.com's Buster Olney hears from a talent evaluator that the Rays' haul gives them depth, but not necessarily impact players (Twitter link). MLB.com's Jonathan Mayo agrees and notes that Archer and Lee have some good upside (Twitter link).
ESPN Chicago's Bruce Levine first reported that the deal was in place, though he and Bruce Miles of the Daily Herald both reported that the deal was close. Miles later added Perez's inclusion, both Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports and Gordon Wittenmyer of The Chicago Sun-Times added details (via Twitter).
Photo courtesy of Icon SMI.
Will he win the World Series with the Cubs? Never!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I HATE THIS TRADE!!!!!!
Cubs lose Lee, Archer,Guyer, there goes the ss of the futer with CASTRO GOING TO 2B. AND WE JUST TRADED AWAY EVERYONE FORM THE DeRosa trad besides Stevens. Not to mention Sam Fuild the Fan fav 🙁
I like Garza but not for the price of what they gave up.
Are you seriously upset about the Cubs trading “fan favorite” Sam Fuld? This is a solid move by the Cubs and should set up another deal moving a SP like Gorzelanny or Wells to get a prospect or two in return.
Garza, Dempster, and Zambrano make a competitive starting three
you will get one prospect of value in return for either of those guys if its a multiple prospect deal it will be 1 good guy and some fillers
Who the hell cares about Fuld?
I would play Fuld over Fukudome or Byrd.
Byrd is an all-star, Fuld has never been close to owning a starting job with any major league team. Ever.
Someone give Jon a Brain because this is dumb as hell.
Someone give Jon a Brain because this is dumb as hell.
I agree one player is not worth all those good prospects
I love this trade…because I’m a Reds fan. You guys move from 75 up to 80 wins next year while trading away all those prospects. Good move for the future of the Rays.
And your Reds, wow. They played 53 games against teams that were .500 or above and went 20-33. You played 109 games against below .500 teams. Right, you guys are so good.
This was the same Cubs team couldn’t beat the immortal Pirates. The Rays have a deep rotation in Price, Niemann, Davis, Shields and Hellickson. They moved Garza salary to clear up space to upgrade the bullpen help and a proven DH. The Rays theory is that since their starting pitchers that I mentioned all from the Rays system, Garza wasn’t in their system; they don’t know what will happen if he will break down in the near future. See Scott Kazmir trade in 2009. Rays are very patient with their farm system and have players develop the right way. This is a win-win trade for both teams.
The Reds have fans?
Quality SP is at an all time high in terms of demands, as alot of teams are locking up young arms
I feel like the Cubs gave up a lot. He is a good pitcher, but I was under the impression we needed more offense. Carlos Pena has been the only offensive pickup, and he “may” be an upgrade, but I just openly wonder if it’s enough with so many swing and miss hitters and the slowness of the team on the basepaths.
I think the Rays won this trade
Edited. I removed “easily”, but nontheless, I think the Rays still won the trade, at least certainly in the long run.
Man, talk about giving away the farm. Hendry needs to go.
He did not give away the farm. They still have Brett Jackson, Chris Carpenter, Reggie Golden, DJ Lemehieu and Josh Vitters. The guys they gave up were good, but the Cubs still have several good prospects. The best part about this trade is that Sam Fuld will stop being mentioned as the lead off man.
Yeah, he only traded the #1 SP prospect, the #1 MI prospect/leadoff hitter, the #2 OF prospect, the #1 C prospect, and a good defensive 4th OF for a guy that is probably going to top out about where Archer will.
If those are really the organizational ranks by position for those guys then the Cubs system is in dire trouble. Archer’s put up good stats at a young age, but I doubt you ever miss the rest of those guys.
Really? We’re not going to miss Hak-Ju Lee, who a scout said basically has the potential to be Jose Reyes with better defense and slightly less (home run) power?
We’ll just turn to one of the many other options for a leadoff… oh, we haven’t had one in four years or for four years before that?
Ever heard of Tony Campana? look at his numbers in AA I think he be a pretty good base-stealer
How many errors did Lee have in the minors last season? 34. The most Reyes ever had at any level was 18. Reyes has no real power to speak of, so it’s not like Lee having slightly less power is a positive.
Lee is a long way away. And he’s only a few months younger than Castro. Granted, Castro needs to improve defensively as well, but still. The Cubs shortstop of the future is playing at Wrigley this year. Chirinos…he’s only slightly younger than Soto. Those are two prospects that the Cubs were able to deal because of organizational depth at certain positions. They happened to match up well with the Rays needs. Archer is the top pitcher, yes, but a lot of things have to go right for him to be as successful as Garza has proven to be…
I have no issue with this at all, especially after the various reports that have come out stating that the Rays didn’t get any superstar prospects, with Olney also saying that other scouts told him the Rays were picking from one of the worst systems in baseball. I’m personally glad the Cubs are done overvaluing certain guys. (The infamous Felix Pie “We wouldn’t trade him for DiMaggio” story comes to mind.)
In the end, you still have one of the best young players in the majors at short, a relatively young catcher coming off a very underrated bounceback season, and a rotation that at the very least should be competent, and potentially good. So trading a catching prospect, a shortstop prospect, and two filler outfielders doesn’t bother me at all. I mean, in all seriousness, when has Hendry ever, ever looked bad for trading prospects that came back to haunt him? (Nolasco for Pierre, probably, right?) His history is the opposite, he hangs on to guys far too long.
Well put. I only wish they could’ve sent Smardj and Vitters instead of Archer and Lee. Maybe Lee could’ve played second but you’re looking at 2 years down the road. I have to give Hendry, Ricketts and company credit for trying to put a winning team on the field now. They could easily throw in the towel for 2 years until some of the bad contracts come off the books. I agree with trying to win now, thats what you paid these guys for!!
Do you know what “potential” means?
Do you know what “potential” means?
Just no. Fuld is a non-factor. He’s a 29 year old that wasn’t going to make the major league club. Wellington Castillo is a better catching prospect than Chirinos. Archer is far from a sure thing to top out as a #2 starter. Garza already is that.
Yeah, but Garza’s got half the service time left and will be MUCH more expensive. Castillo MIGHT be better defensively as a C, but Chirinos has played all 5 IF position and OPSed over 1.000 in his short AAA stint last year.
Fuld is NOT a solid #4 OF or he would’ve been on the roster last year. He is a career minor leauger.
Fuld just has a slightly above-average UZR of 2.8 for his career and an OPS+ of 85, with his only half-season being that of a 112 OPS+. He is about replacement-level. He’s decent as a #4 defensive replacement late in games, and he has stolen 20+ bases in each of the last 2 seasons at AAA.
I’m not calling him a GREAT 4th OF or a great player, but he does his job.
vitters who more and more people on blogs, fans, and even baseball prospects are projecting to do nothing in the bigs
Vitters is still too young to cast aside, and before he got her last year he was starting to come around. Look for him to have a big year in 2011.
Vitters absolutely refuses to take a walk. I doubt he will ever amount to much.
If that’s the biggest knock on him then he will be fine. Patience can be learned.
seriously giving up 4-5 of your top ten prospects for a #2 pitcher thats not a very good move…its not bad but not good..
Look at it this way.
Two years ago, the top pitching and hitting prospects in the Cubs’ system were Josh Vitters and Jeff Samardzija, and everyone would have been freaking out if they were traded. In retrospect, it would have been wise to shop them around because neither looks like panning out. Similarly, trading Archer and Lee may not be all that bad.
Look at it this way.
Two years ago, the top pitching and hitting prospects in the Cubs’ system were Josh Vitters and Jeff Samardzija, and everyone would have been freaking out if they were traded. In retrospect, it would have been wise to shop them around because neither looks like panning out. Similarly, trading Archer and Lee may not be all that bad.
I’m not sure how you make say that. The Cubs are apparently acquiring two minor-leaguers along with Garza in this deal (an OF and a P), and we don’t even know who those guys are yet. Little premature to declare an “easy win” for the Rays when you don’t even know two of the guys the Rays are giving up.
That said, I’m not sure I would deal Archer for Garza straight up if I were the Cubs. Garza isn’t an ace; he’s not even a Shawn Marcum. He’s a flyball pitcher with a better-than-average K-rate, who will probably be a 3.50-4.00 ERA guy. Archer had some upside, and according to Baseball HQ, he jumped his velocity last year and “keeps getting better and better.” I’d take six years of cost-controlled Archer over Garza’s last two arb years… at least if I wasn’t deluding myself into thinking I had a chance to win the NL Central in the next two years.
If the Cubs make some other moves to bring them up to par with the Cards, Brewers, and Reds, this makes some sense. Otherwise, this seems like a waste of a young trading chip (Archer).
the cubs got a 27 year old OF guy who is bad and dont know on the pitcher yet but it probably wont amount to anything more than a projected middle relief guy
sorry jwsox. you forgot to finish your last sentence.
the cubs got a 27 year old OF guy who is bad and dont know on the pitcher yet but it probably wont amount to anything more than a projected middle relief guy in AAA.
Perez is under rated…He is coming off a shoulder surgery and is just now getting back to form. He is an excellent defender with great speed. If he hadn’t gotten hurt he’d probably be patrolling CF for the rays instead of Upton. He may end up surprising you and al ot of other Cubs fans.
“Garza isn’t an ace; he’s not even a Shawn Marcum. He’s a flyball pitcher with a better-than-average K-rate, who will probably be a 3.50-4.00 ERA guy.”
Tell that then to basemonkey who apparently thinks Garza is without a doubt an ace.
“If the Cubs make some other moves to bring them up to par with the Cards, Brewers, and Reds, this makes some sense. Otherwise, this seems like a waste of a young trading chip ”
That’s one of the reasons why I said the Rays win the trade. Maybe I should have said why, and I apologize for not doing that.
Agreed. It also gives the Rays financial flexibility this year to sign a DH/closer
I absolutely love this trade for the Cubs! The Rays did not win this trade.
Yet… with that massive cropp 1 or 2 is bound to be stars lol
lee has alot to prove at the big leagues and archer is a big fish in a small pond in the minors.
Is that your futre starts for the rays?
They may be but Ive seen many cubs highly touted prospects go bust so I do like the trade from the cubs side on paper.
lee has alot to prove at the big leagues and archer is a big fish in a small pond in the minors.
Is that your futre starts for the rays?
They may be but Ive seen many cubs highly touted prospects go bust so I do like the trade from the cubs side on paper.
really? the cubs gave up their whole farm system and the rays scouting team is top notch. they wouldn’t have given him up for nothing!
That’s what scares me…the TB scouting department seems to be much smarter than the Cubs. But I’m hoping it’s a good deal for both sides.
That’s what scares me…the TB scouting department seems to be much smarter than the Cubs. But I’m hoping it’s a good deal for both sides.
Their whole farm system? Archer is a talent, but the rest were B/C prospects who were hopelessly blocked on the Cubs. I actually think they deserve kudos for getting value on guys like Chirinos before they turned back into pumpkins.
This seems like such a salary dump for Tampa. I know your trying to lower your payroll but was this the best you could do ? The only way this could be worse for Tampa was if they were forced to take Yuniesky Betancourt.
Every team has these AAAA 27-29 year olds who tear up the minors and can’t stick in the bigs. Even though there in the same divison, I would much rather have seen the Rays get Montero from the Yanks and have to face Garza more often then get a Santanaeque package for one of your best trade chips.
No way the Yankees would have even considered dealing Montero in a Garza deal. No. Way.
ummmmm …..Yeah they would. In a heartbeat.
Are you serious? Why in the world would the Yankees do anything but laugh at the idea of trading a guy who is in the top five on all of the major prospect rankings, for a guy who would be, at best, a #3 in their rotation? The Yankees have only been willing to even talk about including him in trades for Lee and Halladay, the only thing Garza has in common with those two is the fact that he wears a hat.
Because he can’t play in the field?
I think he means they all had three years of control left … oh whoops no they don’t. They were willing to trade Montero for a few month rental of Lee and Halliday, whereas Garza would be with them till 2013.
They weren’t going to trade Montero for Lee or Halladay just to let them walk at the end of the year.
Even if Montero ends up as a DH, his hitting abilities (plus many, cheap, years under control) will make him more valuable to the Yankees than 3 years of a decent pitcher.
I don’t think we can draw any conclusions on how players will respond to being traded for especially when it comes to Cliff Lee. We know the Yanks would have traded him for a rental; anything else is pure speculation on your part.
It was an assumption on my part so I should have said so. But I think it is pretty safe to assume that the Yankees would have asked for a window to negotiate an extension with either pitcher and could have backed out of the deal if they couldn’t agree on an extension.
The Yankees still seem to think he can.
hes not athletic at all. he cant throw the ball. hes not consistant. we have Austin Romaine, Gary Sanchez, and JR Murphy. All of which are consistant, have above adverage power, can call a game, and play better defense.
Defensively, there isnt much difference between having montero behind the plate and having a toothless bear play catcher.
Sorry I was using Yankees for Montero as more of an ‘example’ of trading a known quantity in Garza for a sure fire top prospect like Montero. I don’t like this trade because, like the Santana trade, your getting the top of a weak farm system plus a few AAAA guys for one of your best trade chips.
That said though, how would Garza not be the #2 on the Yankees ? Who’s gonna be placed over him ? Burnett ? If he repeats last year he’ll be lucky to stay out of the pen. Unless of course you buy into the rhetoric about him training extra hard in his barn to try and be in the … wait for the cliche… best shape of his life !
Unless he bombs next year Hughes is a much better pitcher than Garza. Particularly since Garza is a fly-ball pitcher and would be pitching in the launching pad known as Yankee stadium, I don’t think that would be pretty.
Hughes>Garza
garza >hughes!
Sorry I was using Yankees for Montero as more of an ‘example’ of trading a known quantity in Garza for a sure fire top prospect like Montero. I don’t like this trade because, like the Santana trade, your getting the top of a weak farm system plus a few AAAA guys for one of your best trade chips.
That said though, how would Garza not be the #2 on the Yankees ? Who’s gonna be placed over him ? Burnett ? If he repeats last year he’ll be lucky to stay out of the pen. Unless of course you buy into the rhetoric about him training extra hard in his barn to try and be in the … wait for the cliche… best shape of his life !
Obviously you’ve never seen him pitch..The kid has ELECTRIC stuff and once he matures a little more (He’s only 26) he will be a dominant starter. BTW he went head to head with Lee when Lee was with the Mariners and out pitched him both times….
He’s only 26, and has been pitching in the majors for 5 years (full time for 3). If he hasn’t figured it out yet, the chances of him doing it are getting pretty small. Guys don’t usually pitch consistently OK for several year and suddenly “figure it out”. He’s a good pitcher but he is by no means an Ace.
Pitchers don’t go head to head unless it’s an NL game and one is batting. Garza doing well pitching against the Mariners while Lee pitched well going against the Rays means absolutely nothing. Have you looked at Garza’s numbers? He hasn’t pitched as well as either of Beckett or Lackey over the past three years and people are down pretty hard on those two, so what makes worse numbers better for Garza?
Agree — most pitchers either have it when they gets called up, or they don’t. Pitchers’ career performance curves don’t follow a nice upslope-and-downslope like most hitters’ curves do, where the speed peaks early, the power peaks around 27-32, and the plate discipline peaks in the 30s. Most ace pitchers are ace pitchers when they arrive on the scene, and many of them burn out early. The late-bloomers (e.g., a Cliff Lee, who became an ace after a few years in the league) are rare. Garza probably is what he is — he’s not suddenly going to “figure it out.” If anything, he’s settling into being more of a pitch-to-contact guy — his K/9 rate dropped from 8.4 to 6.6 last season, while his BB/9 rate dropped from 3.5 to 2.8. The lower BB-rate is a good thing, but the lower K-rate suggests his “stuff” isn’t as “devastating” as the stuff of most “aces.”
Maybe not “figure it out” suddenly, but you can actually learn how to pitch instead of just going up there and trying to blow everyone away with 96 mph fastballs. That’s where he is at now, much like the entire Rays staff. They have to figure out how and where to locate, change speeds,trust pitch selection, hitter tendencies etc. As they mature they will make adjustments. I think Garza will do better in the N.L. as well. I wish him the best of luck and we will miss him as a player and a genuine “team” guy. If nothing else he’ll have the Cubs clubhouse a lot looser, the guy is hilarious….
He very well may (even probably will) learn to locate pitches better, and will as a result become a better pitcher, but it is very hard to see him progressing in leaps and bounds to the point where he becomes an Ace. He already is a good pitchers and going to the NL will likely only help, but it’s hard to say that some one who is decent in the AL and good in the NL is an Ace, a true Ace would be one whether he was in the AL or NL.
I agree, but I don’t recall ever using the word “ACE” to describe him. Right now I’d say he’s a good #2 or even #3 starter on some teams. He may or may not become a staff ace, but being as I said, a “dominant starter” doesn’t mean you’re the Ace, it just means you have stuff to dominate hitters with any given start…The Phillies have 4 dominant starters but I’d only consider Halladay and Lee “Aces” and Lee has even been inconsistent at times other than never walking anyone. I think he’ll do well, but I iwould have rather seen the Rays keep him and trade him at the deadline to give Hellickson some more time as a spot starter and long reliever. Guess this is best trade for both clubs right now so more power to them. Hope it works out for both.
The Rays would have NEVER considered it…You really think they would have gave the Yankees even more strength in the SAME division…SERIOUSLY?? Catchers are NEVER a sure thing unless you’re Joe Mauer…Garza’s a proven arm. It’s bad enough they lost Crawford to the Sox, I doubt they’d do any trade that buried them more in the division. Only way they’d have done that trade was if it was Montero AND Gardner to take over for Crawford and Yankees wouldn’t have done that no matter how bad they need pitching.
I hope this is a joke but sadly I don’t think it is. Montero AND Gardner for Garza? No.
That’s what I said..apparently you didn’t get that the trade WOULD NEVER HAPPEN WITHIN THE DIVISION!!! Maybe the Sox can trade Youk to the Rays for a really good prospect to help the Rays out with the hole at 1st base….That’s what good teams do, help the competition improve while weakening themselves.
An all-star middle of the order position player is a little bit different than a middle of the rotation pitcher. A better comparison would be “Maybe the Sox can trade Lackey to the Rays for a really good prospect to help the Rays out”, the Sox would certainly do that.
Nah…not Lackey, we don’t need starters…Tell you what, I’ll give you Shields, BJ Upton, Kelly Shoppach and Justin Ruggiano for Youk, Papelbon and Nava..lol
Not saying that that is what the Rays would need, only that it is a more reasonable comparison.
OK..was trying to joke with ya but I guess it got lost in translation…
The Yankees offered Montero for Soria, Lee and Halladay straight up. There is no chance the Rays would get him for any player on that team except Price and Longoria or one of their top prospects. But that would never happen. Nor should it.
Teams dont swap top prospect for top prospect.
and they most certainly offered other prospects in addition to montero in each one package offered for lee and halladay. the yankees have not offered anyone for soria. They have just been listening to what it would take. big difference.
Not true. Lee is actually my #1 prospect over Archer.
Not even close to giving up the whole farm.
Bunch of average prospects isn’t the whole farm. Archer and Lee are really the only decent prospects they got.
Good deal for the Cubs IMO. Gave quantity over quality.
average prospects? they are all top rated guys except for fuld who is a solid 4th of
Really ? Are any of these guys top 100 prospects ? Im not being facetious, I can’t find any top 100’s which are recent. From what I can tell all these guys have well respected tools, but their is no concensus that they will be above average. Archer was rated a fourstar prospect which is the best that i’ve seen.
They’re among the best prospects in the Cubs’ farm system. Archer was quite probably our top pitching prospect and Hak-Ju Lee was our top infield prospect and, more importantly, had a real chance to be the leadoff hitter that the Cubs’ have had only one year of in the last decade–a guy named Juan Pierre, who we also got fleeced in a trade for and who, like every other person the Cubs bring in for the position, absolutely refuses to take a walk and steals bases more by decent speed and trying to steal bases a lot than actually being good at it.
Whether or not they’re top 100 prospects is largely irrelevant. The Cubs traded away half of their prospect depth and two of their best. There is a very real risk that they are back to having to do everything through free agency. Back to hoping to hell they don’t make a mistake in free agency or they’ll have to sit on their damn hands for years waiting those contracts out like they’re already doing because there’s no cushion waiting, cheap and controlled, on the farm.
And they did all of this… what? With a belief that they’re truly going to leapfrog the Reds, Cardinals AND Brewers to win the division with virtually their entire pitching staff a question mark and aging, under-performing players on massive contracts occupying most of their power positions? Or is it because Jim Hendry realized that another 75 win season costs him his job?
if the brewers didnt add marcum and oh right that guy named greinke this would have beena great move that might have put the cubs back close to the top but the brewers did make bigger and better trades this move puts them closer to the brewers but not past. lets not forget the brewers offense was very good, i believe better than the cubs and they added one ACE and another #2 to their team to go along with yovanni and moving wolf to the bottom of the order. The reds won the central last season and didnt get any worse. and the cards are the cards untill albert moves away(if he does) they will always be the team to beat in the central
Archer was their #1 prospect and their minor league pitcher of the year….
yes, Lee is a top 100. Archer might be depending on the list. Lee seems like a slam dunk top 100 and should be on just about every list.
i was not talking about top 100 in baseball i was talking top rated guys in the cubs system…i believe it was 4 of the top 10 cubs farm hands
It was 3 of the top 10. Archer was #1, Lee was #4, and Guyer was #10. Guyer is a 25 year old OF playing in AA and Chiniros is 27 playing in AAA. The deal was centered around the development of Archer and Lee. Archer could end up being a frontline starter or closer and Lee could end being a poor man’s Jose Reyes.
A lot of the scouts are saying Guyer could be a late bloomer and last yr. was just the start of what he may be capable of. He could end up in LF in place of Crawford. He has speed, some power and is an excellent defender according to what I just read from Tampa’s scouting notes.
It says a lot that you’re saying they’re average prospects, yet they were ranked top 10 for the Cubs.
really? the cubs gave up their whole farm system and the rays scouting team is top notch. they wouldn’t have given him up for nothing!
Let’s not get too carried away. It’s not the whole farm system. The Cubs best “prospects” Castro and Cashner are already in the majors and they still have Jackson, Carpenter, McNutt, and Vitters. The Cubs did deal from some depth. They have Soto at catcher, they consider Jackson a much better prospect than Guyer in CF, they have Castro at SS, and they have many more good arms in the system, though Archer was likely their best arm outside of Cashner. But they’re getting a good young arm in return in Garza, so it isn’t devastating.
But there’s no doubt here. The Rays did well very well. They got more for Garza than the Brewers got for Greinke. Great, great trade for the Rays and only a so-so one for the Cubs.
Yes, but is Garza the best you could use that depth on? I think they could have gotten Adrian G for this haul.
Um, no.
The prospects might have made the Adrian Gonzalez deal work but the key point is A-Gon would only be guaranteed for 1 year then you still have to commit to a ~20 mil/season extension. We get salary controlled Garza through 2013 at least.
That said I don’t like this deal at all for the Cubs, I like Garza but it looks like we’re giving up way to much. Archer is our best pitching prospect, Lee is a good OBP SS with excellent Defense about 1-2 years from being ready. I think it would have made more sense to keep him and shift Castro to 2B. It would have given us two decent sticks and an incredible defense up the middle for about 5 years. Sam Fuld is a good defensive outfielder with great OBP (~.370 career in both minors and majors) with speed to get 15-20 SB/year. I think its a good time to sell high on Chirinos and Guyer but If this deal goes through as reported I’m not going to be happy with it as a Cubs fan
How did they get more for Garza than the Royals got for Greinke? It’s not directly comparable because it’s five for three, but the Cubs package in terms of prospect quality is no better, and the Royals got major leaguers as well.
I think Archer is much better than anyone the Royals got. And I’m just not sold on Escobar — even had doubts when he was being hyped. The Cubs prospects are all disciplined hitters, which tends to translate better when projecting future success. It’s just my opinion, but I can see an argument for the Royals doing better since Escobar and Cain have had some level of success in the majors already.
I wouldn’t go that far. It’s not the whole farm system. The Cubs best “prospects”, Castro and Cashner, have already been called up to the majors. They still have Carpenter, McNutt, Jay Jackson, Brett Jackson, Hayden Simpson, and Vitters. The Cubs dealt from some depth. Lee is a nice prospect but they already have Castro. The Cubs have Soto at catcher, so Chirinos was blocked — and they consider Brett Jackson a better CF prospect than Guyer. Archer looks like a future #2 starter and was probably our best young arm outside of Cashner, but Garza is a #2 starter now and hes only 27.
There’s no doubt here. The Rays did very, very well on this deal and the Cubs did so-so. They overpaid, but at least they paid from depth. There’s still a lot left on that farm.
The Cubs had to pay more than the Greinke trade because, even though Greinke is a more proven pitcher, Garza has yet to hit Free Agencyand Greinke was openly disgruntled and wanted out. So that translates into more talent being traded.
I definitely think that had a lot to do with it, basemonkey. The Rays had some leverage too in that Garza was easily the most talented pitcher left on the market and were in no hurry to trade him. My feeling is that the Cubs had to give in a little (With Archer probably being the one they had to concede). If Garza can become a consistent top of the rotation pitcher, than I think the Cubs will have done okay. But it’s scary when you have to give up that much talent. I think I’m going to root for the Rays and Orioles now in the East because they each have a few of my favorite ex-Cubs!!
Haha. Yeah.
Also, I believe Greinke hits free agency in two years while Garza hits FA in three, so the Cubs get Garza for a year longer than the Brewers get Greinke.
I wouldn’t go that far. It’s not the whole farm system. The Cubs best “prospects”, Castro and Cashner, have already been called up to the majors. They still have Carpenter, McNutt, Jay Jackson, Brett Jackson, Hayden Simpson, and Vitters. The Cubs dealt from some depth. Lee is a nice prospect but they already have Castro. The Cubs have Soto at catcher, so Chirinos was blocked — and they consider Brett Jackson a better CF prospect than Guyer. Archer looks like a future #2 starter and was probably our best young arm outside of Cashner, but Garza is a #2 starter now and hes only 27.
There’s no doubt here. The Rays did very, very well on this deal and the Cubs did so-so. They overpaid, but at least they paid from depth. There’s still a lot left on that farm.
really? the cubs gave up their whole farm system and the rays scouting team is top notch. they wouldn’t have given him up for nothing!
i agree! Garza could easily win 20 next year in the NL! Why give up a young no.2 starter proven in the AL East without at least seeing how 2011 unfolds? Terrible move by the Rays and their fans cant blame ownership since they failed to support a winner for the last 3 years! Thus the need to shed salary.
Garza win 20!! That’s absurd over my dead body.
He won 15 this year in the AL East. It’s not likely, but it is possible.
He won 15 with one of the best teams in the AL. Now he is with probably the 4th best team in the NL Central
Yes, but that team didn’t have a particularly good offense, in fact probably the 4th best in that division. Not that the cubs have a great offense, but you can’t say his 15 wins last year weren’t hard fought
At the begininng of the year the rays could have closed their eyes and swung and the ball was going out of the park. They also had a fantastic defense that would inflate Garza’s numbers a bit. I just don’t see him getting 15 wins with the cubs this year, maybe 12-14
at least the rays had stellar defense all year round. Can you say that about the cubs?
the Rays as a whole had a bad batting line, but they still scored 3rd most runs in mlb
I agree – going from the AL to the NL should, at a minimum, decrease his ERA by half a run, and he won’t be pitching against the Yankees or Red Sox. The NL central made Carlos Silva look like a #1 starter. Garza’s performance will hinge on handling Chicago fans and media – he has had attitude problems before, and after seeing Zambrano break down in ’10 and the Milton Bradley debacle, bringing Garza to Chicago is a risk. I hope it works out.
I don’t see why not? He pitches enough innings at a quality pace to do so. He’s a future #1.
It could happen.. If he doesn’t it won’t be because HE isn’t capable, it will be because of the teams he plays for.
They’re clearly in a rebuilding mode of sorts. Why hang on to him with that logjam of young, talented starting pitchers when you can just get Jim Hendry to hand over his entire farm?
As a Rays fan I’m happy but also sad, We love Garza but we’ve accepted the fact that it isn’t impossible to compete but very hard. We still have a nice core of players but we are stacking the prospects and stacking draft picks. When will the Rays seriously compete again? Maybe in a few years? We’ll see. We’ll miss you Garza.
But also, we are happy we get to see Hellickson in a full role this year..
Rays rotation: Price, Shield, Niemann, Davis, Hellickson. Again thank you Matt Garza!!
Both teams won this trade, it works well for both sides. Like Marcum for Lawrie.
I think the Cubs gave up to much for him, but I give them credit for making a run at it this year.
i hope your not talking about making a run at a world series, this team still isnt even a playoff team.
the only run they will make is to catch the Pirates for 6th place.. i am hoping for that it will be the only way Hendry gets fired
His year? He is under team control for another three years and the Cubs should be able to retain him when he hits free agency. That is assuming he is worth retaining.
I reserve judgement untill I see who the minor leaguers are that show up with garza.
agreed, with those guys the cubs are giving up there has to be something else coming with garza
Guys – you got your big present – its Garza. The minor leaguers are not going to be prospects or likely to ever sniff the majors. they will only be depth to your AA and AAA teams. More than likely you are going to get 1 player whos minor league depth and the other will be some Low A coach’s project that was given up on. Its not something to get excited about. Fillers. low minor league versions of Scot olsen and troy glaus.
Guys – you got your big present – its Garza. The minor leaguers are not going to be prospects or likely to ever sniff the majors. they will only be depth to your AA and AAA teams. More than likely you are going to get 1 player whos minor league depth and the other will be some Low A coach’s project that was given up on. Its not something to get excited about. Fillers. low minor league versions of Scot olsen and troy glaus.
One of them is OF Fernando Perez. He’s 27. Good defender with excellent speed but had major shoulder surgery and not sure he’ll ever be same. Used to be decent hitter..now, not so much.
Wow. Good for both teams. Moreso for the Rays because of the caliber and number of prospects, and good more for the Cub fanbase. I think Garza will do well for the scrubbies and maybe be the jolt that the team needs.(that, and ARam and Soto to get it together) The Rays farm is just scary at this point, hopefully they pan out in the coming years
i think Soto “got it together” last year, leading all catchers in OPS and all, but agree this trade is good for both teams as long as Garza moving from the AL East works out as it has for many before him.
Soto did get it together last year.
Too much given up by the Cubs. Archer and Lee alone makes this a steal for the Rays. Chirinos and Guyer are two nice under the radar prospects on top of that. At least I don’t have to hear Cubs fans ranting about how the Cubs should start Sam Fuld all the time.
Depends on who else the Cubs get. Right now, its one sided to the Rays.
Well cubs got perez….Thats a win for the rays. addition by subtraction. Perez was a bust in 06.
the rays just got some good players, archer, lee, and guyer. but garza is going to help the cubs now as archer would be a year or two away from the majors. lee is blocked by castro, and guyer would still be a couple years away. fuld and chirinos are in their older twentys and they wouldnt have spots on the opening day roster anyways
That’s a good deal all around I think. And Garza is gonna be monster in the NL.
If he put up those numbers in the AL East, imagine what he can do in the NL Central.
I feel like this is dumb for the Cubs. They aren’t going to win a world series anytime soon, and their team still has some very old parts. So they take a big chunk out of their system for one player? Rays win this trade.
you realize its a 5 for 3 swap right….
I realize it’s a 5 for 3 swap, but until we know the other parts, I’m assuming they are middle tier players that most likely will only make a small impact at the majors level.
well theres 2 middle tier prospects that the cubs gave up also, ya know.
Yes. and they were actually named at the time of the trade. Perez was selected lated. Sorry cubbies.
As a Cubs fan its hard not to get excited about this trade. But from a purely objective stand point it seems like it may have been a bit expensive and a bit premature. Hopefully the minor parts coming back are interesting and surely better fits.
Leave it to the Cubs to do a 5 for 1 swap. I hate this trade because it makes TB’s farm that much better getting 3 of the Cubs top 10 prospects. This is a great trade for TB but a bad one for the Cubs because they are not going to win now with Garza their team has way to many holes and with the resurgence of the Reds it will be tough to even get wild card. Gutting the farm is not the answer, it reminds me of the Yankees under George.
Nevermind I didnt realize it was a 3-5 swap, the last sentence was worded confusingly.
Per espn
“Tampa for Garza, a minor league pitcher and minor-league outfielder Fernando Perez.”
Considering the Cubs got this Archer guy for DeRosa(WTF were the Indians thinking?). For them to turn him into a proven stud pitcher in Garza who is only 27. And you know they will re-sign him. I will say both teams got what they wanted.
At the time of the trade, Archer was barely a ‘C’ prospect. He made some real strides once coming over to the Cubs’ system, including a substantial increase in velocity (likely tinkering in mechanics). I remember the Cubs were panned for making this trade, the general thinking that they gave up DeRosa for nothing to save a few bucks.
“a substantial increase in velocity”
So Tommy John is in Archer’s future then?
I understand the risk when jumping more than 1-2 mph in a single season and the immediate stresses on the arm/shoulder, so yes, it is entirely possible. I’d say with the way the Rays system handles their pitching prospects, that really minimizes that sort of injury – they are VERY methodical when developing pitchers.
He was a big maybe when he was with the Indians.
Lately I’ve been reading that Archer may project better as a closer. Cubs have a great young closer already
Lee might be a good young SS. Cubs already have one of those already.
Guys like Guyer are a dime a dozen. Fuld is worthless
As far as Garza, take note of all the established starters the last 10 years who have gone from the ALE to the NLC. EVERY SINGLE one of them saw a huge bump in their numbers from the previous season. Clemens, Pettite, Arroyo, Lilly, etc
Realistically Garza’s 3.90era and 1.250 whip in the ALEast probably translates to 3.20era and a 1.170 whip at worst in the NLC. The competetition just isnt nearly the same. look at the CArds (one of the better nlc teams). Sure they have Pujols, Holliday, and Rasmus. And maybe Berkman bounces back. But the other 4 guys dont scare any pitcher and you have the pitcher on top of that. 5 worthless hitters in one lineup
How does it translate for a flyball pitcher in one of the top 3 most hitter friendly parks in the game?
Cubs will reportedly get Desmond Jennings and Matt Moore in the deal.
Ok, kidding obviously, as I can’t imagine the other 2 players will be anyone of consequence.
Nice deal for both sides. I think Archer could be a future closer and Lee will battle Brignac come 2012.
I’m thinking that he’d replace brignac once he starts to become expensive, but the ray’s have to be sure he’s ready before the insert him into the regular lineup and flip brignac
Garza and two minor league players who will never make it to the ML Level.. It sucks seeing Sam Fuld go but he never really had a chance of playing.. good hearted kid..hope he does well he will be a starter for the Rays by the end of the year if not sooner..
The trade honestly doesn’t make sense too bad Garza couldn’t veto a trade to chicago and a 5th place team
Im not a cubs fan by no means, however they have a chance. The rotation become extremely better today. IF Z can put together a good year, and IF silva can do what he did again, and IF soriano can hit the ball, and IF pena doesnt k 200 times, and IF ramirez plays better than last year, they could be a good ball team.
I know there are a lot of IFs here but so are there on every other team in the NL Central.
Im just saying theres a chance they could sniff the playoffs
Ramirez Washed up.. Z too myuch of a headcase to do good. Silva fluke starting 8-0 and then finishing like 12-10 or something.. Soriano needs to be a PH at best he should not start over Colvin ever
The Cubs have a very good chance at 6th place
Oh I agree, they could end up in the basement! I was just saying if a lot of their guys perform up to expectations of the contracts handed to them then they could very well content next year.
none of their big contract guys have stepped up yet.. Lilly was their best signing and he was their best pitcher the last 3 and half yrs.. they might get 12 wins from Z and Silva Wells will bounce back, Garza will lead the team with 14-15 wins and will have equal amount of losses and also Z will have more loses then wins again this year. I hope they at least make Garza the opening day starter Z is 0-4 the last 4 yrs
Oh I agree, they could end up in the basement! I was just saying if a lot of their guys perform up to expectations of the contracts handed to them then they could very well content next year.
Uh, right. About that…
Dude step away from the crack pipe.
The Cubs certainly don’t look like a good team this year but to say they’re going to finish worse than THE PIRATES is just ridiculous. The Pirates are improving but they’re at least another 2 years before they see a 500 year. I see the Cubs fighting with Astros for the 4th spot in the division but it wouldn’t surprise me if the Brewers get off to a slow start they may decide to sell Fielder at the deadline then they could drop out of the top tier of the division as well.
I wonder if the Rays got the Cubs to take on Beckam and his $.
edit: Oops now I see it’s and OF and P going back to Chicago.
Umm… no.
That would be incredibly dumb. Far too early.
Is this trade about quantity or quality?
Too bad Soto wasn’t the catcher involved the one the traded is ten times the player Soto will ever be ML level or not Soto is terrible
Taking the piss, right?
Taking the piss, right?
PLEASE tell me you’re kidding. Soto is one of the best catchers in the NL.
I have watched his his first 2 and half years he’s showed nothing to me that he’s one of the best.. catchers your insane for thinking that
Was that a serious take? For your sake, I hope it wasn’t.
You obviously don’t know how to look up statistics so let me help you out…..Soto last year hit .280 (7th best hitting catcher). His .393 OBP was 3rd best among MLB catchers. Had a .497 SLG percentage (2nd best catcher in MLB) his 17 HRs were only good enough to be tied for 7th highest total as a Catcher but McCann lead all catchers with just 21HRs. Chirinos put up some good numbers last year but remember that was AA/AAA and there’s Big difference between minor league and major league pitching.
NOTE: All rankings based on min of 300 ABs
Yeah soto blows. I mean who wants a catcher who can post an obp near 400 and a slg near 500??
that never happened nice try though.. Soto averages 1 SO a games that’s not exactly good.. sometimes he goes on streaks where he does nothing but SO and he’s horrible behind the plate he’s one of the worst defensive catchers in the league.. dare i say Paul Da Luca is better then him.. and he was just a journeyman minor catcher in the ML
Um Soto’s OBP last year was.393 and his slugging was .497 and he had 83 ks in 107 games. Get your stats right
Uh, I would call a .393 OBP and .497 SLG “near”. Nice try though.
Indeed a good hitter but lacking a little defense, would almost rather have an awesome catcher behind the plate and an average hitter at the plate , of course in a perfect world we could all have joe mauer sorry typo
that never happened nice try though.. Soto averages 1 SO a games that’s not exactly good.. sometimes he goes on streaks where he does nothing but SO and he’s horrible behind the plate he’s one of the worst defensive catchers in the league.. dare i say Paul Da Luca is better then him.. and he was just a journeyman minor catcher in the ML
I thought the Cubs plan was to build their farm system. They finally get a little depth there, and then they trade away a nice chunk of it. And for Garza? He’ll be better in the NLC, but he’s a #3 in the Cubs rotation right now. A fly ball pitcher in Wrigley is a scary prospect, too. Garza is not the final piece on a team ready to contend, so I don’t understand why Hendry would give up so much on a merely good pitcher. I REALLY hope that this same package of prospects was denied by the Padres and Royals (if Hendry called for Greinke). He would’ve been better off re-signing Lilly, in my opinion.
Garza will be the Cubs ace next year!
Now that I think about it, you’re right. Z probably won’t pitch like he did after he came off the restricted list last year, and Dempster is above-average. There’s not much standing in the way of Garza being the ace.
They still have plent of depth in the farm. Especially at Pitcher, Outfield and Middle Infield.
As a Yanks fan I love this trade. Get Garza the heck out of the AL. The prospect will make the Rays better down the road but we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it. I take it to mean the Cubs are trying to win now. If not then I don’t see the point.
As far as the prospects, according to Sickels the Rays got…
3) Chris Archer, RHP, Grade B+: Another hard-thrower who emerged as a surprise in ’10.
4) Hak-Ju Lee, SS, Grade B: I don’t know why, but I think his bat can develop more than people expect.
8) Brandon Guyer, OF, Grade B-: He’s always been an athlete and has added skills to go with the tools.
15) Robinson Chirinos, C, Grade C+: Like Smith, not young but can help soon.
A power pitcher and a good SS prospect are decent returns.
“Get Garza the heck out of the AL”
Could not agree more!!! This is awesome for our teams…I loved watching Garza pitch, the guys is nasty. Thank you bajeezus he is out of the East!
This is the best thing to happen for the yanks…addition by subtraction!
It’s pretty sad when your team outspends most other teams by more than double, and you’re still scared of competition from a team that is expected to spend less than $40 million on their payroll this year.
There is nothing to be sad about. It is what it is. Some teams can afford to take 5 years to re-build but the Yanks re-load every year.
Neither team asks the fans what route to use, it is a business decision. The Yankees make a lot of money so they spend a lot of money. If the Ray had the revenue and fan base of the Yankees they would be spending much more.
Well Garza isnt the only one in the league who scares me. He was just dominant agains the sox! And yes I did get tired of seeing him dominate us.
My statement was more of a joke on the yanks anyways, being that this was the best offseason move for the yanks this year and it wansnt even a move by them!!!!
hahahah this cracks me
I know, bro. I was just giving some jazz. And I actually meant that as a reply to the Yankee fan. I just felt I had to mention both teams, since the Red Sox will actually surpass the Yankees in spending, if I’m not mistaken.
passing them is good new to me!!!!! Its frustrating knowing your team has the money to spend and they wont. Or they try to buy cheap replacements! I like the new approach for the front office.
Wish every team could spend a bit more, we would have a lot less 90 game winners.
Except you guys get to deal with Hellboy now.
“Get Garza the heck out of the AL”
Could not agree more!!! This is awesome for our teams…I loved watching Garza pitch, the guys is nasty. Thank you bajeezus he is out of the East!
This is the best thing to happen for the yanks…addition by subtraction!
As a Yanks fan, I would think you’d be more worried about the Rays in the future than the immediate impact. Because, and I’m not just saying this as a spiteful Red Sox fan, it does seem that with the Yankees offseason so far that you might be looking at 2011 as some sort of bridge year. So in that case, anything for 2011 might not matter as much as how they improve in later years. *shrug* That’s just the way I look at it, at least.
I don’t get the whole bridge year thing. The Yanks missed out on Cliff Lee which is huge, but 95% of the team is returning. If Pettitte retires that will hurt but it’s not going to cripple the team. I completely expect Nova to be a solid pitcher next year. I think he tired out having thrown 175 IP between AAA and his mlb innings. I could easily see him being a 175 IP, 4.20-4.50, 140-160 ko pitcher who can win 12 games next year. The Yanks are still going to contend.
As for the Rays, yes they have a great farm but so do the Yanks on top of more financial might. I’ts a given their pitching will be great but they still have to replace the offense of CC and Pena.
You think he’ll be on an innings limit?
Well, it’s not like Hellickson is chopped liver himself, and Garza was 1-3 with a 4.22 ERA against the Yankees with 10 HR allowed in 59.2 innings over the last three years. Solid, but it’s not like he was Roy Halladay against them.
It’s not so much Garza vs Yanks as it is Garza vs everyone else.
Much rather they keep Shields in the lineup rather than Garza even though Shields pitched better vs the Yanks. Yanks have a tendency to make mediocre pitchers look like Cy Young winners, so it doesn’t really matter.
I’m just glad I wont have to watch him spit all over the place anymore…
hahahaa I’m sooooo glad someone finally said it!
what is up with that weird spitting thing he does
As a Yanks fan I love this trade. Get Garza the heck out of the AL. The prospect will make the Rays better down the road but we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it. I take it to mean the Cubs are trying to win now. If not then I don’t see the point.
As far as the prospects, according to Sickels the Rays got…
3) Chris Archer, RHP, Grade B+: Another hard-thrower who emerged as a surprise in ’10.
4) Hak-Ju Lee, SS, Grade B: I don’t know why, but I think his bat can develop more than people expect.
8) Brandon Guyer, OF, Grade B-: He’s always been an athlete and has added skills to go with the tools.
15) Robinson Chirinos, C, Grade C+: Like Smith, not young but can help soon.
A power pitcher and a good SS prospect are decent returns.
The Cubs should be rebuilding and this doesn’t seem like a rebuilding move. If anything they should be trading away proven entities for prospects, not vice versa.
I agree with you, but it’s hard to rebuild with youth while charging one of the highest average ticket prices in the majors. I think those half-full crowds last September scared the team into making moves for 2011 rather than doing the smart thing and waiting for those bad deals to expire.
I didn’t think of the business aspect, thats true. Can’t help but feel that in the long run hurting the farm will only worsen attendance worries.
The Cubs should be rebuilding and this doesn’t seem like a rebuilding move. If anything they should be trading away proven entities for prospects, not vice versa.
Great trade for the Re Sox…they cannot beat Garza….so glad to see him gone..
ya blue jays couldnt touch him either lol so glad hes out.
thats an understatement, Garza murdered the Jays almost every start, I can only remember 1 time we got to him
Great trade for the Re Sox…they cannot beat Garza….so glad to see him gone..
the thing i dont get is the cubs getting an old OF they have 5OFs right now they need to trade Fukudome and put the guy they just got in RF and then bench Soriano so Colvin can play left.. makes no sense to get a 6th outfielder
the thing i dont get is the cubs getting an old OF they have 5OFs right now they need to trade Fukudome and put the guy they just got in RF and then bench Soriano so Colvin can play left.. makes no sense to get a 6th outfielder
I am not sure what the purpose of having Fuld and Perez in this deal. They are pretty much the same player and a little old to be considered a prospect any more. Both seem to have speed and defense but light with the bat. The Cubs gave up way too much on this deal and it pretty much puts a dent in my thoughts that the Cubs should be fielding a contending young team by 2013!
I am not sure what the purpose of having Fuld and Perez in this deal. They are pretty much the same player and a little old to be considered a prospect any more. Both seem to have speed and defense but light with the bat. The Cubs gave up way too much on this deal and it pretty much puts a dent in my thoughts that the Cubs should be fielding a contending young team by 2013!
The Cubs’ first domino falls. Now to unload Big Z to Texas for Michael Young….
gotta be Ramirez and Z for Young
Intriguing idea. Thing is that the Rangers like the idea of being able to use Young as an all-in-one utility infielder right now and they kind of promised him he would stay a Ranger. Plus, a trade would have to contend with the fact that MY has a big role in the clubhouse and that there are fresh memories of guys with short fuses like Vicente Padilla, Milton Bradley and Sidney Ponson.
The Cubs’ first domino falls. Now to unload Big Z to Texas for Michael Young….
Curious, how do fly ballpitchers generaly do in Wrigley?
Ted Lilly had his four best years while pitching for the cubs in Wrigley, and he’s certainly a fly ball pitcher.
depends on the wind blowing in or blowing out.. just wait til May i think it is Yankees go to Wrigley this year.. I guarantee the Yankees hit 10 hrs in that series
i agree that its good for AL teams to see Garza go but man, when is the exodus of pitching from the AL to NL gonna stop? Halladay, Lee, Greinke, now Garza!
While it’s not untrue, it’s just really weird to see Garza in the same sentence as those other three.
Lol seriously. And he even left out Johnson, Lincecum, Cain, Jiminez, Kershaw, etc.
I predicted that the Cubs would have to give up Archer and one of there other top prospects. Somebody on here said that wouldn’t happen. As for Yankee fans to acquire Garza it would have been Montero, Betances,plus probably a couple other B prospects, and a C prospect.
I don’t understand why small market teams trade their cheap, young pitchers to teams for such a small return. Greinke, Marcum, etc. Makes no sense to give a team a discount on premium pitching without paying market value money.
What you think is market value and what market value actually is appears to be different.
Marcum wasn’t exactly young and what the Rays are getting is not a small return. Sorry.
Marcum’s 29, wooopie!
Royals traded Greinke because he threw a temper tantrum, demanded a trade, and threatened to no-show at spring training if he didn’t get one. It’s not like they wanted to trade him.
the only thing that his demand for a trade got him was a 4th place finish in NL Central instead of 5th place in AL Central
4th place behind who?
Only 2 teams that even have a chance at finishing ahead of the Brewers are the Cards and Reds…and I wouldn’t count on a cinderella repeat for the Reds- they’ll probably win 75-80 in ’11.
Toronto is not a small market, and Lawrie was the Brewers #1 prospect.
While certainly not expensive or old, Garza was going to cost them more this season than some of their younger starting pitchers. The Rays have to decrease payroll, so they trade one of their more “expensive” guys to a team for some more prospects to replenish the farm while not having a huge impact on your ML team (the difference in performance between Garza and his replacement in the rotation, Hellikson, isn’t going to be that much).
While certainly not expensive or old, Garza was going to cost them more this season than some of their younger starting pitchers. The Rays have to decrease payroll, so they trade one of their more “expensive” guys to a team for some more prospects to replenish the farm while not having a huge impact on your ML team (the difference in performance between Garza and his replacement in the rotation, Hellikson, isn’t going to be that much).
People are looking at this trade in such a negative light. Perhaps the Cubs gave up depth in the system but look at what that depth was.. Archer a future closer according to most scouts, he is blocked by Marmol. Chirinos a solid defensive catcher who is also projected as a number 2, blocked by Soto. Guyer another solid prospect but the cubs have a ton of outfield although most of them are old and suck, but they also have Colvin, and Brett Jackson is waiting in the minors. O and a young shortstop prospect..o wait they was 20 year old Starlin Castro. They got a great number 2 perhaps ace in return that makes their rotation solid and perhaps better than the brewers now.
In what universe is Matt Garza an ace? Keep spinning…
He’ll probably be the Cubs ace next season…but that’s not really a good thing. I think Garza, Zambrano, and Dempster are #2 or 3 starters on a contender. None of them would be higher than 3rd on the Brewers or Cardinals.
There’s a pretty big difference in calling someone a TEAM’s ace and an ace.
Totally agree. Not enough true aces to go around…especially with the Phillies bogarting them all. It’s like the old saying about how there are Opening Day Starters and guys who start on Opening Day. Not the same thing…
I said great number 2 perhaps an ace. Going from the AL East to the NL central will give him a huge boost in his numbers and he threw 200 innings last year those combined can lead to an ace. And he is only 27.
Pitching a lot of innings makes him an ace? Shaun Marcum was a #2 in AL East too, I guess he’s an ace now too? You’re vastly over-rating the move to the NL. A pitcher doesn’t go from being good (which is what Garza is at best) is to being an ace because of that. Like Fangraphs posted, Garza is Aaron Harang who spits a lot. A 7.1 K/9 and 4.5 xFIP doesn’t impress me.
I like your use of words and stats to back up your points. I said potential ace. No one knows what he will do for all we know he will have a 5.00 ERA. but there is a chance he is dominant. In addition everyone is talking about all the talent they gave up but again they are all prospects, potential. Do you know who was a number 1 prospect for the Cubs? Corey Patterson, that worked out. How about Felix Pie two years in a row. That worked well. How about Rich Hill… No one knows how they will do or how Garza will do but he has the potential to be an ace. And obviously Garza is no Halladay but he had a nice boost switching to the NL, how about when Pettite moved, although he had a 4.1 one year he had a 2.3 the year before and before that in the AL a 4..
To keep going how about how dominant Javier Vasquez was in the NL compared to the AL east?
Can Lee be the PTBNL in the Padres trade? i wonder if is to late to negotiate.
Can Lee be the PTBNL in the Padres trade? i wonder if is to late to negotiate.
Why Hendry, why?
Why Hendry, why?
After the Garza-to-the-Cubs deal is finalized, the Red Sox will announce that they have clinched at least a wild card spot in the playoffs.
Red Sox win the AL East .. mark my words.. Yankees finish 4th
That’s foolish.
what post are you replying to i just posted like 3 in the last 3 minutes
The one right above my comment.
The one where you said the Yanks would finish 4th.
“what post are you replying to i just posted like 3 in the last 3 minutes”
I can’t believe you had to ask that.
But then again, you HAVE posted several doozies on here.
You are more likely to see the Orioles in 1st than the Yankees in 4th.
Yankees will finish 2nd to Boston.
Would you like to put your money where your mouth is!
At least, as a BoSox fan, I don’t have to watch him spit all over the field for 5-6 games this year.
Dempster is and has been much better than Lilly
This looks bad on AA. Marcum for Lawrie straight up is weak compared to what the Rays are getting back for Garza.
Lawrie is a way better prospect than any of the guys the Cubs are giving up. Just because it’s more players doesn’t make it a better deal for the Rays; and the Rays are also giving up a couple of prospects in addition to Garza.
and garza has 1 extra year of control vs marcum. the jays got quality and the rays quantity.
and how can you say Garza will be .500 when he went 15-10 in the AL East last year?
Win/Loss record for a pitcher is useless.
No question about it. I can’t believe how many people STILL use that outdated stat to judge how good a pitcher is.
Any Cubs fan clinging to hope that this trade should help them should go look at how Garza did outside of Tropicana last year…. I’m not liking this trade for them at all.
I’m glad the Rangers didn’t acquire Garza… Question for Cubs fans, because i don’t know much about their prospects or organization….
How is Vitters, as in how close is he to the bigs, if at all, etc???? I played against him as kids and teenagers, and a former coach was wondering if i knew and i had no idea, figured this might be a place where people would know…
Vitters seems like he’s at least 2 years away. Hasn’t shown the progress everybody had hoped.
Split opinions on Vitters. Pretty swing, but a bad approach at the plate. Doesn’t draw walks at all. Still young enough to turn it around, but not really a sure thing at this point.
Complete steal for Tampa Bay.
I agree most of the Cubs prospects were blocked. That doesn’t, however, mean you just give them away. I feel like this package is similar to the Greinke one, and I would rather see him in a Cubs uniform over Garza. We are still the 4th best team in the NL Central this year IMO. Probably could have been the best team in 2012-2013 had we held on to prospects and let our big contracts expire and sign real players.
I like all these comments from people saying that this is a horrible deal for the Cubs when every expert out there likes what the Cubs did. None of these prospects would have ever contributed to the Cubs at the major league level and Matt Garza had like a 3.07 ERA against non AL East teams last year.
“None of these prospects would have ever contributed to the Cubs at the major league level”
You know this how? Because a couple of them are blocked now? Way to predict the future so well.
Buster Olney doesn’t count as an expert.
Most “experts” don’t follow the minor leagues outside of the top 10 prospects in baseball. Jim Hendry has no idea what he is doing. In a vaccuum, this trade is somewhat even, with a slight edge to Tampa, but given the state of the Cubs and the NL Central, this move is laughable. This move has moved the Cubs from a 4th or 5th place finish, to a 3rd place finish at best. While in the process surrendering future talent that would be useful when the division isn’t so top-heavy.
NOT a smart move.
How is this a bad move? We NEED proven pitching. We gave up a potentially strong starting pitcher and SS. THAT’s IT. For a guy we can control rather cheaply for the next two years who projects to be a no 2 on this team. We didn’t raid the farm system and look at the comments of every fan of AL teams on this board. Their similar to “Glad to see him out of the ALeast”, “He dominated our team.” Cubs fans are just dumb in their zeal to go after Hendry because of the bad moves he’s made in past years.
Because Garza has outperformed a mediocre FIP lately, suggesting that he’s not as “proven” as you might think. And besides, the fangraphs article on this trade makes a good point, that the Cubs could have gotten a basically identical pitcher without having to give up prospects in Aaron Harang. I’m not a fan of this trade for the Cubs, not at all.
Great sabremetrics says he’s mediocre. Never been a fan of it. Hasn’t Aaron Harang been injured??? To me, Harang’s similar to Carlos Silva. So are you saying Garza’s the same as Silva???
Woah woah woah. So wait. First of all, you’re just dismissing sabermetrics because you don’t like them? Not exactly a sound argument. And besides his more traditional stats aren’t exactly eyepopping. And then you compare Harang, an average but very consistent pitcher, to Carlos Silva, one of THE worst pitchers in baseball before having his lucky 2010. I don’t see the comparison at all. Maybe you should stop blindly supporting this trade, and just look at the facts. The Cubs traded some of their best prospects for a player type they could have easily found on the free agent market. The only thing Garza has going for him that someone like Harang doesn’t is his age, and since you just surrendered a bunch of promising young guys to get him, I don’t really think that makes this a fair trade. I’m not saying Garza will be bad, or that you don’t need pitching or something. I just think that the Cubs, who clearly need to do some rebuilding, just weakened their growing farm system in order to bring in….Garza. Not exactly the franchise building player you’d usually want a rebuilding team to trade for.
Whoa. So you’re blindly saying that sabremetrics are the end-all be-all for judging ballplayers. What about the human factor? Maybe you should stop blindly following sabremetrics like most of its disciples do. Maybe I made the outlandish comparison between Silva and Harang in an effort to get you to realize that both were both VERY INJURED last year. And comparing a guy who was VERY INJURED in 2010 to a guy who pitched 200 innings is absolutely ludicrous. The CUBS didn’t raid their farm system as you’d have us believe. They traded away Sam Fuld and Chirinos and Guyer, a position player who is found in EVERY team’s farm system. Fuld’s 29 and not promising. Believe me, I watched every Cubs game when he was called up in September. Chironos is 27 and at an age when, if he was so promising, he would be close to the prime of his career. Lee is blocked from playing by Castro and didn’t progress as rapidly as Castro. So that leaves….Archer. So basically they trading away a promising SS that wouldn’t have gotten playing time and solid SP. And still have a solid farm system. Doesn’t sound like you know much about the Cubs farm system? Does it? And this for a guy who’s no 2 in a talented rotation on a dominant team last year who pitched solidly in one of the best divisions in baseball and in a more dominant hitting league. I just wonder if, because you are tied to sabremetrics, that you think Greinke’s going to dominate this year? Should be interesting to see if “the human factor” plays a role in his performance. Unlike Garza, the guy’s never pitched in a pressure situation. Look what pressure’s done to Big Z? Bet sabremetrics couldn’t have predicted that! No, you’re right not a big fan of this stuff…because it doesn’t account for the human factor or in Garza’s case the change in leagues. This is NOT an unfair trade as it appears on the surface.
Garza’s career numbers: 3.97 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, about 2:1 K:BB, .252 BAA – those aren’t that impressive, even given the fact that he pitched in the AL East. I wouldn’t expect much more from him in the NL. I’d predict 3.75 ERA, 1.30 WHIP and the same K:BB ratio from him next year. Not bad numbers, but not worth five prospects.
Fuld is 29 and not a prospect. And the Cubs get two players back, too.
if pettite retires the yankees finish 4th but at least 3rd
And what does that have to do with Garza to the Cubs?
Heck of a haul for a guy who was the #4 starter in the TB rotation.
This gives the Cubs 6 starters now doesn’t it?
Any possibility the Tigers trade with them for Gorzalanny? What would the Cubs want in return. The Tigers have a couple extra Relievers who are ML ready and they have a few OF prospects who are close.
BP guys. The Cubs outfield is too full as it is. He’ll I’d like to see Hendry flip one of these extra pitchers along wit Fukudome for a BP arm and a 1b prospect.
Okay,
The tigers could give up Robby Weinhardt (solid Righty bullepn guy who can get lots of ground balls) and Ryan Strieby (Righty power hitting 1B broke his wrist last year but is blocked from advancing in the Tigers system due to Cabrera) for Fukodome and Grozalanny, assuming the Cubs also eat half of Fukudome’s salary.
OR
Give us Wells and we’ll take all of Fukodome’s salary.
I could see them reviving the deal with Texas for O’Day and Davis for Gorzelanny and perhaps another midlevel prospect.
Maybe but for Wells not Gorzelanny. I just don’t see Gorz having as much trade value.
The Cubs gave up 5 guys, yeah, but one of them, Chirinos, will be 27 next year and is blocked. And Fuld is 29 and not at all worth getting worked up over. Lee is a possible non-star everyday player who was blocked. Guyer was buried behind the Cubs’ big league roster and Brett Jackson. Archer’s future is probably in the pen, and the Cubs already have a hlaf dozen arms to sort out for that, with Marmol locked in as closer.
Yes, the Rays did nicely, but I’m really not buying that the Cubs will be mourning the loss of these guys.
Perez/Fuld is a wash. Depending on who the minor league arm the Cubs get is, 27 year-old Chirinos for the pitcher is probably a wash, or close to one. That leaves Archer, Guyer, and Lee for Garza. Mild overpay, but nothing worth tearing your hair out over. Their young pitching depth covers Archer’s loss and Lee and Guyer were buried.
I don’t know the prospects well enough to decide if the Cubs paid too much, but hats off to them for taking the leap to get Garza.
Can someone please explain to me why Garza is so great? His numbers don’t blow me away. Is it because he’s a #2 with so many years of club control left?
My biggest disappointment with this trade, as a Cubs fan, is seeing Lee go. The guy was amazing defensively, and if he developed, he could’ve killed 2 birds with one stone, forcing defensively challenged Castro over to 2nd or 3rd. Additionally, his speed was reported to be exceptional, and could’ve given us another true top of the order option if Jackson doesn’t pan out.
I understand that a lot of these players were considered blocked, but to give up so much of the farm for one guy that looks like a #2-3 doesn’t make sense. Especially considering that the Cubs aren’t in contention mode right now. Just because a guy is blocked doesn’t make him less valuable, it makes him expendable.
On the other hand, if someone explains Garza’s value, and this move prompts the cubs to dump another starter for prospects (Gorz) or to drop payroll (Z), then it looks like a win.
How are you not impressed with his numbers? He’s pitched in the toughest division in baseball for the past three years, and has a 3.86 ERA and 1.25 WHIP over that span.
I like this trade quite a bit for the Rays. But I don’t necessarily DISlike it for the Cubs. Garza should do quite well there.
Try pitching against the Yankees and Red Sox. Add the Blue Jays too.
Great for Cubs. Not a bad haul for the Rays. Fernando Perez will be pretty good.
In what universe will he be good? He isn’t young for a prospect and his numbers are dreadful. “The 27-year-old outfielder has a .234/.301/.351 line in 107 big league plate appearances. He hit .223/.280/.299 in 426 plate appearances at Triple-A last year.”
I’m of the opinion that the Rays did pretty well in this deal. But, man, the rankings slaves on here are killing me!
“He’s a#1! No, he’s a #2 or 3 and the other guy is a #7! He’s a B+! No he isn’t! He’s a B-, and the other guys are just useless!”
The Rays got 4 prospects with upside, and the Cubs got a very good, but not great, ML pitcher. Everything else is pure conjecture, at this point, regardless of what your favorite top 10 list says.
Drop pants, turn around, bend over. Congrats, you’ve just completed a trade with the Tampa Bay Rays.
wow….
jim needs to be fired for this trade.
why would u give up #1 and #4 prospect for a #2 starter???!
No.2 on the Rays…who play in the AL…East. Easily a Number 1 anywhere else.
No. Wouldn’t be the #1 in Chicago (Cubs or Sox), Minnesota (w/ Pavano), Detroit, Boston, New York (Yankees), Oakland, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Cincinatti, Philly, Atlanta, Colorado, Giants, Marlins, and I may be forgetting a few other teams as well.
Yeah that career 4.45 xFIP screams ace to me too. Marcum was #1 in the AL East last year. Will he be the best pitcher in baseball next year?
Maybe on your Mets as long as Santana is out, but not the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, Giants, Mariners, Braves, Tigers, his old team the Rays, Cardinals, Brewers, Giants, Marlins, Reds, Brewers.
I hope the physical involves a long, hard look at his salivary glands…
now that hes not playing in a air conditioned carnival tent he might have to drink extra water if he’s gonna do all that spitting
For a team with so much depth in the minor leagues, the Cubs could afford this. Nice move. Maybe now, DJ Lemeheiu and Reggie Golden will get more love.
This is a catastrophe. This team is REBUILDING, dumbass. Welcome to 5 years of 4th place finishes. Please God fire Jim Hendry.
What so in your world a team is “rebuilding” aka 60 wins and then goes to contending (90 wins) overnight? Where do the good players come from? Do they just materialize fully formed from the farm system?
Newsflash: It’s all about getting good, young, cheap players under control for several years. People seem to think that unless you develop the players yourself you’re selling out for mediocrity. Not the case. This is a fantastic trade for the Cubs.
NL Central looks like it’s going to be an exciting race
The Rays are run properly. Look at the Yankees dumping 17 million a year on a 38 year old Jeter. Sure, for the media and ‘feel good’ story it fine. But as a business decision its horrible to pay someone 3 or 4 times more than his true value is. Paying Arod 30 million a year is great for Arod’s bank account but its dumb to extend someone until age 43.
Well hey, Jeter had one bad year. The guy has been one of the most consistent players and has been there for all of the championships (and always a big part of them). His last huge contract has to be one of the very few times that a long contract was actually well worth the money. Yes, he’s getting up there in years, however, $17 million a year for the Yankees (approximately) is not the same as $17 million for the Rays. Who cares if his defense is a little sub par, his value comes from his hitting, patience, and his baserunning. His year wasn’t even that bad last year. He was worth 2.9 WAR I recall which is just about league average. Most SS did not even reach that last year.
Though the A-Rod contracts (both of them) were/are terrible.
Actually Jeter was worth 2.5 WAR last year (according to FanGraphs). His closest comparison, as far as SS go, was Marco Scutaro with 2.1 WAR
Actually Jeter was worth 2.5 WAR last year (according to FanGraphs). His closest comparison, as far as SS go, was Marco Scutaro with 2.1 WAR
First Sandberg, now this–it seems Hendry has resolved there will be no youth movement in Chicago as long as he’s around.
I love Fernando Perez! He instantly becomes the Cubs coolest player.
My favorite line from Perez:
Scout: “What’s your ultimate upside?”
Perez: “President of the United States.”
Has anyone heard who the pitching prospect coming back to the Cubs will likely be?
Nobody significant
The more sit and ponder, the more I like the deal for the Cubs considering true depth and new found skill at building a system. I could see Garza being similar to Dempster in a general sense.
Agreed. It was a lot to give up but I think Archer and Lee are the only two players who probably would have had significant roles with the Cubs the way they’re structured, and both are at least a year away. That’s not saying Chirinos or Guyer cant be good players, but they were blocked on the Cubs. Most people see Chirinos as a backup and Guyer as a 4th outfielder type, but either could start in the right situation and if they continue to develop. It’s possible Lee could have moved Castro to second (or vice versa) and started and Archer had a good chance of becoming a #2 starter. But Garza’s already a #2 starter and he’s still young and under team control. Perez can be a nice 4th or 5th outfielder as well. There’s still a youth movement in Chicago, but they’re going to try and do it on the fly rather than tear down and start over. I think the Cubs gave up a bit much, but I wouldn’t call it disaster. They had the depth to make that kind of deal.
I’m higher on Hayden Simpson, Austin Reed and Trey McNutt than most so I don’t see as much of a loss in the minor league pitching department. Plus we should be taking a pitcher in this year’s draft.
Like your post and totally agree. And for those who think this could have gotten us Greinke…er maybe. And maybe if we could have afforded him. People forget…we’re cash strapped.
Trade goes to show why the Rays do so well and the Cubs dont.
Why? Explain. Don’t see more than 2 great prospects the Rays are getting in this deal. With the emphasis on “prospects”. Remember Hee Sop Choi, Corey Patterson and Felix Pie…they were great prospects, too.
Because the Cubs gave up 2 blue-chip prospects, plus filler for AJ Burnett disguised as a goat.
Compared to other team’s talent, Archer and Lee aren’t blue chips. Plus jury’s still out on whether or not Lee can hit and the Cubs already have a starting SS–his name is Starlin Castro. First, some guy’s comparing Garza to Aaron Harang–who’s been injured most of last year and now Burnett. How about Danks? Garza’s not Burnett…Burnett being overpaid.
Not the right time at all for the Cubs to make this. It would be like the Mets trading Mejia away for Garza now.
I thought Garza was a bonafide ace now?
Bonafide #2 at best.
I meant the Cubs aren’t good enough to contend right now, like the Mets. Even though the Cubs are closer, giving up prospects now isn’t right personally. Maybe they can move Wells or Gorzellany for some decent names.
The Cubs are now the runaway favorite …
… to finish 4th in the NL Central.
it will be more like 5th possibly 6th
So the Astros/Pirates are better? Funniest thing I’ve heard all day.
Agree baseball52. Cubs fans are so NEGATIVE. Maybe we finish 3rd in the NL Central. I’m OK with that.
Do you even watch baseball games?
it will be more like 5th possibly 6th
Yeah that career 4.45 xFIP screams ace to me too. Marcum was #1 in the AL East last year. Will he be the best pitcher in baseball next year?
This the kind of deal the Cubs had to make they needed a young #2 type of stud pitcher who could emerge as a #1 guy. They didn’t go after Greinke because he is making like 12 mil a year and they are at there max payroll as we speak. Since they got this prospect for DeRousa and the rest really willn’t be anything special the ss propspect had a horrible .704 OPS last year. Cubs have a stud shortstop already for years to come. By the way don’t be surprised is ARAM has a big year two years ago he had the highest BA in NL with guys in scoring position. Cubs bullpen looks to be lights out with marmol/wood/marshall/cashner/ and possible healthy grabow. NL Central has 4 good possible teams Cubs and Brewers look much stronger than last year and Cards/Reds look good. Just saying stranger things have happend.
Lol Garza and “Stud” in the same sentence, too funny.
Damn F.P. is gone to the nationals
So does this allow Cashner to stay in the bullpen? Could be a strong pen with Marmol, Wood, Marshall, and Cashner handling the 7th-9th.
Wood should actually be the closer now that he has crafted the Mariano Cutter
its a good move for the cubs, probably a better move for the rays due to the fact that they already had 4 really good starters and some young guys with awesome stuff and potential. It clears up money for them to improve their team and gives them a goood amount of good prospects(le is going to be something special i dont think the cubs should have given up on him, move to 2nd would have made a good young, cheap, defensive, good hitting middle infield with castro) But not the real question is what do the rays do with the money? Vlad, thome or manny? and who of the cubs gets traded? Big z has full no trade and too big of a contract to move unless the yankees come calling but dont expect much, think salary dump for the cubs, depmsters contract makes him untradeable and probably has no trade protection. Salary makes silva hard to trade(not as hard as Z or dempster) but hard, they should have moved him at the dead line we all know how he pitches one good year 3 bad, no one wants goreze or wells for that matter, or at least wont give up enough to make it worth it. so the next few weeks will be interesting..
this thing is this move does not make the cubs that much better. Their bullpen is still a mess, castro should be expected to have a sophmore slump. They still have soriano whos glove will cost you more games then his bat will win. Byrd is getting older and losing range. No one knows if Aram can stay healthy and actually produce this year. Pena while his power, obp and glove are there he cant be counted on to win you games due to his lack of plate discipline. Blake dewitt is blake dewitt a AAAA guy. their bullpen is shaky at best untill you give it to the closer(blanking on name) but if he is scared or in his head he wont do you any favors(after watching a lot of cubs baseball last season he seems to be all or nothing, the est when he is on, the worst when he is not) Garza would equal out to be a push with the brewers getting marcum but the brewers took it one step higher and got Greinke. Their rotation is better than the cubs and i dare anyone to argue that. their offense is better. I dont think the cubs finish higher than 4th. The reds will more than likely still win, seening more and more aroldis. The cards might make a push for 1st but probably finish 3rd and i see the brewers finishing 2nd and grabbing a wild card
Why should Castro be expected to have a sophomore slump? Not everyone does. Take the pressure off and he’ll be fine.
Take a look again at there bullpen. Marmol is a stud closer look at his numbers. Kerry wood is a top of the line setup man the yankees and red sox offered $5 a year to be set up man. Shaun Marshall is a top lefty 8th inning guy and they also have a kid named Cashner who throws 98 mph and had a great last two months last year. Grabow didn’t really piych last year and if healthy could be a key lefty bullpen arm next year. What I’m saying is the Cubs pitching staff could really surprise some people this year now the offense is another story. They have some good pieces but lack a true leadoff guy and team speed in general. They will hit for power with Pena/Ramirez/Soriano/Colvin/Soto. Brewers, cards, and reds bullpens are aweful. Just try to tell me a better bullpen out there on paper than what the cubs have I really am have trouble thinking of another better!
How is the Cardinals bullpen awful? Look at the stats fool. The Cardinals still have the best pitching staff in the Central… bullpen included.
What about the Crdinals bullpen makes it the best? The stats sure don’t.
how is the brewers pen awful, take a look first pal. and the starters are still better than the shlubs and reds, close to the cards
How about……San Diego? Guys like Mike Adams, Heath Bell, Ernesto Frieri, Tim Stauffer, Joe Thatcher, heres just a few numbers.
-Mike Adams: 1.76 ERA, 1.065 WHIP, 9.9 SO/9, 3.17 SO/BB, 66.2 IP.
-Heath Bell: 1.93 ERA, 47 Saves, 1.20 WHIP, 11.1 SO/9, 3.07 SO/BB and 70 IP. -Ernesto Frieri: 1.71 ERA, 1.105 WHIP, 11.7 SO/9, 2.41 SO/BB 31.2IP.
-Tim Stauffer: 1.85 ERA, 1.077 WHIP, 6.6 SO/9, 2.54 SO/BB, 82.2IP.
-Joe Thatcher: 1.29 ERA, .857 WHIP, 11.6 SO/9, 6.43 SO/BB, 35 IP
I can’t argue that the Brewers starting staff is worse than the Cubs – the Cubs have more starting depth, but Greinke, Gallardo, and Wolf are solid – but beyond that, come on. The Brewers are still counting on Carlos Gomez in CF and Yuniesky Betancourt to be their everyday SS. Couple this with the Fielder contract situation and the Brewers are far from playoff bound.
marcum is a very good pitcher too dont forget about him they have a very very very good 1-2…wolf and marcum at 3-4 is also very good
its a good move for the cubs, probably a better move for the rays due to the fact that they already had 4 really good starters and some young guys with awesome stuff and potential. It clears up money for them to improve their team and gives them a goood amount of good prospects(le is going to be something special i dont think the cubs should have given up on him, move to 2nd would have made a good young, cheap, defensive, good hitting middle infield with castro) But not the real question is what do the rays do with the money? Vlad, thome or manny? and who of the cubs gets traded? Big z has full no trade and too big of a contract to move unless the yankees come calling but dont expect much, think salary dump for the cubs, depmsters contract makes him untradeable and probably has no trade protection. Salary makes silva hard to trade(not as hard as Z or dempster) but hard, they should have moved him at the dead line we all know how he pitches one good year 3 bad, no one wants goreze or wells for that matter, or at least wont give up enough to make it worth it. so the next few weeks will be interesting..
this thing is this move does not make the cubs that much better. Their bullpen is still a mess, castro should be expected to have a sophmore slump. They still have soriano whos glove will cost you more games then his bat will win. Byrd is getting older and losing range. No one knows if Aram can stay healthy and actually produce this year. Pena while his power, obp and glove are there he cant be counted on to win you games due to his lack of plate discipline. Blake dewitt is blake dewitt a AAAA guy. their bullpen is shaky at best untill you give it to the closer(blanking on name) but if he is scared or in his head he wont do you any favors(after watching a lot of cubs baseball last season he seems to be all or nothing, the est when he is on, the worst when he is not) Garza would equal out to be a push with the brewers getting marcum but the brewers took it one step higher and got Greinke. Their rotation is better than the cubs and i dare anyone to argue that. their offense is better. I dont think the cubs finish higher than 4th. The reds will more than likely still win, seening more and more aroldis. The cards might make a push for 1st but probably finish 3rd and i see the brewers finishing 2nd and grabbing a wild card
Granted I’m just your typical optimistic Cubs fan, I don’t mind this trade for the Cubs. Other than maybe Lee and Archer, they won’t miss any of the guys they gave up. Lee and Castro could have been a stellar MI, but he apparently had several question marks. As for Archer, I think he will really be missed. It will be tough for him to develop in the AL East, but he could have become something good in the NL Central.
But here’s where I think the Cubs really earn most of the value in this trade. They have a lot of money coming off the books in the next couple years. They can use that money to build around the pieces they have in place, including Garza if he keeps it up for a couple more years. And there was no guarantee the guys they gave up will ever be major contributors. It may not pay off this year, but it could help down the road.
why will it be tough for them to develop in the AL east? upton is pretty decent, longoria is one of if not the best 3rd basemen in the game, the rays pitching staff is awesome. more examples from different ALE teams. jeter, posada, MO, gardner,, pedroia, elsbury, youlk, wells, hill, halladay, hughes, lester, buckholz…those are just a few…its hard ingeneral to adjust to the MLB i would not say its harder in the east than any other division…its not like the NL central is a cake walk
Sorry im just sad we lost Lee he is one of my favorite prospects that “was ” in the cubs system 🙁
Sorry im just sad we lost Lee he is one of my favorite prospects that “was ” in the cubs system 🙁
lmao.. i love the cubs attempts at success
why was my comment removed
good trade for cubs, look cub prospects never amount to anything expect nolasco is decent. this will be the last you here of those so called prospects. sorry rays, except i always liked fuld haha hope he does well
Ya Starlin Castro is garbage right, Mark Prior was awful too before his injuries, Greg Maddox didn’t do well either huh? I guess you can forget about Fergie Jenkins and Bruce Sutter, Mark Grace, Roger Hornsby, Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, and Billy Williams, all awful right?
haha this is why the prospect argument is soo much fun you just named 8 for sure great players 1 who is too young to even tell(not bashing him i like the player but no one really knows what castro will do) and sont even talk about prior..he had 1 great season 2-3 maybe good season but got hurt nothing you could do about that. you cant at all say he was anything other than a great rookie
Garza has yet to have a “great” year, he has never had an ERA lower than 3.69, or a WHIP lower than 1.240, his career ERA+ is 107, a career 8.1 H/9 had a 2.0WAR in ’10. The guy pitches to contact and with a defense like the Cubs, this trade just loses its value. You’re right, Castro is too young to be able to tell how great he will be, and I was arguing the point that great players can come out of the Cubs system, and is a stupid reason for sending 3 of your best prospects over for a pitcher who is only a little above average. If this trade was for a guy who is a sure ace, such as Felix Hernandez or Jon Lester, I’d say the trade makes a bit more sense. but this guy has attitude issues, has yet to have a great season, and has alot more to prove before giving away prospects with higher ceilings. Save the talent for when there is a better pitcher available, don’t waste 4 guys on a 3 year #2 starter
“Ya Starlin Castro is garbage right, Mark Prior was awful too before his injuries, Greg Maddox didn’t do well either huh? I guess you can forget about Fergie Jenkins and Bruce Sutter, Mark Grace, Roger Hornsby, Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, and Billy Williams, all awful right?”
As a fellow Cub fan, just pointing out facts. The poster you were correcting was bashing Cub prospects. However, The names you listed were not all Cub prospects. You might want to look up Rogers Hornsby and Fergie Jenkins and find out they were not originally from the Cubs system. Hornsby was a Cardinal years before traded to the Giants and Braves and then to the Cubs. Jenkins came up through the Phills system before traded to the Cubs.
Jenkins was still considered a rookie when he cam over to the Cubs, and you’re right, Hornsby did have an established career in St. Louis first, for some reason I thought he spent his time with the Cubs then was traded to St. Louis, just had it backwards.
I brought up Jenkins as a Philly because that is where he was signed/minors and I thought the point was about Cub draft picks. No matter, Cubs get to claim him HOF.
Jenkins was still considered a rookie when he cam over to the Cubs, and you’re right, Hornsby did have an established career in St. Louis first, for some reason I thought he spent his time with the Cubs then was traded to St. Louis, just had it backwards.
“Ya Starlin Castro is garbage right, Mark Prior was awful too before his injuries, Greg Maddox didn’t do well either huh? I guess you can forget about Fergie Jenkins and Bruce Sutter, Mark Grace, Roger Hornsby, Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, and Billy Williams, all awful right?”
As a fellow Cub fan, just pointing out facts. The poster you were correcting was bashing Cub prospects. However, The names you listed were not all Cub prospects. You might want to look up Rogers Hornsby and Fergie Jenkins and find out they were not originally from the Cubs system. Hornsby was a Cardinal years before traded to the Giants and Braves and then to the Cubs. Jenkins came up through the Phills system before traded to the Cubs.
Ya Starlin Castro is garbage right, Mark Prior was awful too before his injuries, Greg Maddox didn’t do well either huh? I guess you can forget about Fergie Jenkins and Bruce Sutter, Mark Grace, Roger Hornsby, Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, and Billy Williams, all awful right?
good trade for cubs, look cub prospects never amount to anything expect nolasco is decent. this will be the last you here of those so called prospects. sorry rays, except i always liked fuld haha hope he does well
The Cubbies were under the gun to get a good pitcher after the Grienke trade and they got one with Garza. Archer is #41 on the top prospect list. Two of the other players Guyer and Lee were rated high B by Sickels. Chirinos looks like a hitter that might help the Rays this year. This is a win – win for both teams. If Zambrano pitches the way he did at the end of the season 8-0 the Cubs will make the NL Central that much tougher next year.
I think the Cubs were under the gun to make a splash after Adrian Gonzalez was traded to the BoSox. According to too many fans/writers/bloggers, AGon to the Cubs was a foregone conclusion. I’m sure Pena getting $10mil didn’t help w/the anxiety, either. I bet my life Z won’t pitch like he did after coming off the restrictive list. I’ve seen the “I’ve changed” act from Z before.
we have all seen it at least once a season for his entire career. look for Z to get moved to clear some money and free up a rotation spot
I don’t follow the Chicago writers or bloggers so I don’t really know what they talk about but I didn’t hear anything about Agon to the Cubs being a foregone conclusion. I know they made an offer and it was turned down, but again maybe I just missed it.
By “too many”, I meant more than one. Cubs writers are almost as eternally optimistic as the fans, and when AGon told reporters he wouldn’t mind playing in Chicago, suddenly they thought it meant he didn’t want to play for anyone else. Writers and bloggers acted as if AGon was only being courted by the Cubs, and that the Cubs were going into the offseason with the sole intention of trading for him. So many ignored the other holes on the team, instead choosing to focus on a guy who I don’t even believe the Cubs were close to acquiring.
I think the Reds are the team that missed out here. They needed to make a move for a top starter and didn’t. They could have gotten Garza for Alonzo and one of their top catching prospects like Grandal.
I think the Reds are the team that missed out here. They needed to make a move for a top starter and didn’t. They could have gotten Garza for Alonzo and one of their top catching prospects like Grandal.
i feel like alonzo and a top catching prospect for garza is an over pay.
Not sure what this dea mean for the Rays… Unless the propects they acquire can help them in a very short period, i think we can forget the rays to be a player in the AL Est, this year.
Never count your chickens before they hatch, in 07 no one expected the Rays to do as well as they did, or Carlos Pena to go off for 46 HR’s after never breaking 30 in his career. No one expected the Rockies to make the 07 playoffs but they went on a 20+ game win streak, and in 03 no one ever expected the Marlins to beat the Yankees in the WS, not to mention the Rays still have David Price, James Shields, Jeff Niemann, Wade Davis and Jeremy Hellickson, all reliable pitchers.
and they still have longoria
Yeah, but that doesn’t really affect the pitching staff, but he is the key piece in their line up for sure
They might be able to give a good ride to the Yanks because of their lack of depth at starting pitching but this Boston lineup is powerful and full of patient hitters. if you add: Lester, Buchholz, Beckett, Lackey… I don’t see the Rays having a chance against Boston if they stay healthy.
Hellickson is better than Garza. They just UPGRADED their starting rotation (although sacrificing some depth)…
Not sure what this dea mean for the Rays… Unless the propects they acquire can help them in a very short period, i think we can forget the rays to be a player in the AL Est, this year.
As much as I want to hate Garza for the attitude issues he was perceived to have had with the Twins, coupled with the bad trade that sent him to TB, I just can’t. He’s an excellent pitcher and he’s very exciting to watch. I think he’ll do very well with the Cubbies. Good luck, Matt.
Whether or not this move is in the Cubs best interest long term, I don’t know. Only time will tell…
Hellickson is a real control pitcher, I don’t think the Rays will be hurting for pitching except in relief.
Garza is moving from the AL East to the NL, he could win 18 games for the Cubs. The Cubs problem now is to get better in the field.
but he is moving to the NL central where he has to play against 3 of the top offensive 1st basemen in the game in albert, votto and prince…let alone some of the best offensive teams in the game. He is also being thrown into the best pitching league…The AL is the offensive league and the NL is the pitching league…i would be 15 wins max
He’s got great number. His strikeout to walk ratio has improved each of the last three years. He’s a workhorse with a sub 4 era. He’s a flyball pitcher going to a ballpark where flyball pitchers like Ted Lilly do quite well. People complain that the Cubs are not in contention this year, but you have the guy for three years! And who know what the trade market will be next year let alone in three years.
In exchange for your spare parts (*Archer could be very good I admit, but he could just as easily be a very easily replaced bullpen guy) the cubs could very easily get much much more for Garza after he puts up great numbers which, simply by virtue of him leaving the AL East and facing the pitcher every ninth batter is very likely to happen.
A career 7.1 K/9 and 3.2 BB/9 is supposed to impress me? What about that 4.45 xFIP? Garza really isn’t that good. And the #1 and #4 prospects in the Cubs system are spare parts?
He’s good, but he’s not great.
4.45 xFIP good point. But how (I don’t know to be honest) does that indicate his true talent when his career avg on balls in play BABIP – those balls in play which the fielders don’t get to is .264 for his career and his career xFIP is over 4 ? So, even with the Rays fielding his FIP is over 4 then he must have some control over his absurdly low BABIP right ?
I just don’t see how citing his xFIP score can be relevant when Garza has shown a constant ability to outperform it based on his skills alone and not those of his fielders.
Though, I am sure there is an error in my logic, I hope someone can point it out to me because I don’t feel like I am using the stats right.
Because FIP (and xFIP) is based on fielder independent pitching, essentially HR’s, BB’s, and K’s while BABIP is only on balls in play meaning it excludes the K’s and BB’s. So most likely what you are looking at is someone who issues quite a few walks, doesn’t strike out a ton of people, and probably gives up a good amount of HR’s. His BABIP can still be low though if lots of the stuff put in play that doesn’t leave the park ends up being an out (true for many fly ball pitchers) he probably also has a good defense behind him.
That sounds like a good description of Garza so the numbers actually make sense for him.
he is a fly ball pitcher who is going to a park that is a very nice hitters park and balls fly out of
Very few Asian positional player prospects excel at the MLB level. Choo for the Indians is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. I’m not including the “big name” players from Japan that come over for large contracts (heck, a lot of them even fail to live up to the hype). I think the Cubs were smart to sell high on Lee, especially with Castro currently blocking his progress.
Guyer is going to be 25, and Chirinos is going to be 27. I think the Cubs have wasted too much time in the past on “older” prospects until they had little to no value. Fuld is a fairly decent example of this, although he was never really a highly touted prospect. He’s 29 and a 5th outfielder. I’m not really worried about losing any of them at this point, especially with Soto, Wellington Castillo, Tyler Colvin and Brett Jackson in the system. If they succeed, so be it, but I don’t think they’re going to be superstar caliber players by any means. Archer is the only big loss for me, but a lot of scouts have already tagged him as more suited for a relief role than a starting role. Garza is a horse and should only improve by moving away from the AL East and into the NL Central. I think it’s a pretty fair trade for both sides. It could help the Rays down the line, but it will definitely help the Cubs immediately.
The NL Central is a wide open division. I don’t care what anybody says.
Is Ichiro one of the ones that’s excluded? The problem with this trade isn’t about losing players where their is already a young guy blocking him, the problem is that all of them are going towards 1 barely above average pitcher. If these 4 players were used to bring in 2 above average players, that’d be a whole other story.
Rays just got a BOAT LOAD for Garza!! WOW did they clean up!!
What I find interesting is how many people are willing to downplay how well Garza will do as a Cub because they hate Hendry. He’s made some lousy moves here and there, but, outside of Carlos Zambrano’s extension, many, if not most of his starting pitching moves over the last few years have looked pretty good. Dempster’s deal? Looks very solid. Picking up Silva for malcontent Bradley? Something for nothing. Ted Lilly’s four year deal? One of the best value-to-dollars free agent pitching deals in recent memory. Gorzelanny’s acquisition? Seems pretty sharp in hindsight. Rich Harden for Murton, Patterson, et al.? Terrific deadline move for low cost. Fangraphs has even Jason Marquis listed as being worth more than they paid for him his during two years as a Cub.
I’m all for slagging Hendry when he outbids himself for second-tier guys like Soriano or obsesses over guys like Peavy and Roberts while other players who’d fit are more easily available, but hasn’t he kind of earned a little credit, at least where his starting pitching acqusitions are concerned?
Rays did well and the big picture here is they did this trade for… 2 reasons.. 1. is obviously to pick up some good prospects and try to develop them to strengthen the big club in 2-3 yrs. but the biggest reason is this. 2. The Rays front office is savvy considering what they work with. They did this to free up more money to sign a good closer and make a run at Vlad or Thome. That extra 3 million free salary will make a huge difference. Their payroll right now is a little less than 30 million. I think they’ll spend another around $10-$12 million since both Friedman and Silverman said they’d like to keep it around $42-$45 million. Bottom line is we won’t know how this trade looks for both teams for probably at least 2 yrs.
“All the experts disagree, but apparently you know more than people who watch these players all the time.”
Define experts please. Hope you aren’t talking about ESPN or Jon Heyman.
But if you trust them as your sources, then fine, let’s ask the experts what team has the best scouting in baseball, I assure you most will say the Rays. Obviously Rays scouts saw stuff they like.
I am really unsure as to whether this trade is a good one for the Cubs. The upside is they acquired a legitimate #2 starting pitcher who is only 27 and under team control for 3 years. No, Garza may not be the Ace to anchor a rotation (a la Halladay, Carpenter, Lee, etc) but he is a very good piece and still young with room to improve. At the very least the Cubs get a solid consistent PROVEN major league pitcher, whose numbers in the NL should improve. You have to give up something to get something and the Cubs got a quality pitcher. The fact is Garza is probably a top 25 pitcher in the majors. Who knows if Archer will ever reach that success. Oh, and Garza is definitely a better pitcher than Shaun Marcum.
Fernando Perez, from what I understand, has incredible speed and plugs in as the 5th OF (essentially, probably, a slight upgrade from Fuld). So, as far as this year and next year are concerned, barring a Garza catastrophic change in his abilities, the Cubs win this trade.
As for the future, I am surprised to see the Cubs giving up Lee and Archer, 2 top prospects who the Cubs have been raving about. However, anyone who says this trade is terrible right now for the Cubs because they gave up these 2 prospects is absolutely clueless. Aside from Fuld, not 1 of these guys has played 1 inning in the major leagues. Therefore, they have no track record other than what they’ve done in the minors which as those who follow the Cubs and their prospects essentially means nothing. Outside of Starlin Castro, who does look like the real deal, BA’s #1 prospect for the Cubs the past 10 years have consisted of Corey Patterson, Mark Prior, Brian Dopirak, Felix Pie, Hee Seop Choi, Angel Guzman and Josh Vitters (jury’s still out). Aside from 2 good years (1 incredible) from Prior, none of these guys have panned out as you would expect from a #1 prospect. So, until Lee and Archer prove anything in the majors there is no argument for stating this was a terrible trade for the Cubs. Chirinos is a 26 year old catcher blocked by Soto and Wellington Castillo. Guyer is an OF and the Cubs actually do have some OF prospect depth plus an overpaid LF who they can’t get rid of until 2015 anyways. Fuld – blah.
However, a lot of what we’ve been hearing is the Cubs plan to grow their major league team from within the farm system and giving up 2 of the top 4 prospects no doubt contradicts that. Perhaps Hendry realized that his past philosophy of holding on to the top prospects who wind up being terrible was not working and that he should gamble on proven major league players when given the opportunity.
Even if none of those players the Cubs traded pan out for Tampa and this does prove to be a great trade for Hendry, I am still totally in favor of firing him!!
HEEEEEY i am waaaaay late and didnt read comments, but how many people mentioned how it just keeps getting better for Boston? The Red Sox killer is out of the AL East, are you kidding me? I read the Yankees secretly coveted Garza and he goes to the Cubs? and wow the Cubs gave up some promising talent to get him, way to go for both teams.
yeah man i was thinking the same thing. garza was a red sox killers. he seemed to always pitch good against the sox except for that game where beltre took him deep 2x last year. good thing he is going to the nl. nl welcome the sprinkler.
Sternberg is pocketing his Revenue Sharing money. I hope that the Taxpayers of Hillsborough or Pinellas County don’t give the NY Carpetbagger a new stadium.
in his defense, the rays could have 5 cy young winners in their rotation and murderer’s row and still find more people watching a hs football game than going to see the rays.
I am hearing the pitcher the Cubs acquired in the trade is Matt Moore, Alex Torres, or Braulio Lara. All three are left handed pitchers in the the Rays top 10 prospects for 2011 according to Baseball America. As soon as I can confirm it I will post it. If this is the case you can then argue the Cubs got a better deal than everyone originally thought
interesting. That could make this deal look more reasonable for the cubs, they sorely lack left handed pitching, probably the biggest hole in their farm system.
Or they get none of the above………
As much as I dislike Hendry, he really has made very few poor trades. He didn’t give up anything good for ARAM, DLee, Harden. I have not lost faith in Hendry’s ability to make blockbuster trades. He even got a solid pitcher and money for Milton Bradley! He is really yet to make a poor trade. I am more concerned about the horrendous contracts he dishes out afterwards. Just a thought
Secondly, the Cubs acquired the best pitcher that is going to be available in the next two years if you think about it. There is garbage on the free agent list next offseason, and not much for 2012, with most of the best pitchers on that list likely to get extensions.
Juan Pierre trade was awful
Pierre was great for the Cubs. Hit nearly .300, stole 58 bases, rarely struck out, played solid d. Yes the Cubs performed poorly, however, Pierre did everything they expected him to as a leadoff hitter. Would I rather have Ricky Nolasco right now? Absolutely, but at the time the Cubs got a very solid player and plus the Cubs have not been short on pitching since 2006 anyway
wrong. Pierre may have hit for decent average, but it was almost all singles, and had a terrible obp, which is the main quality in a leadoff hitter. I’d much rather have a .400 obp guy who doesn’t steal bases in the leadoff spot over Juan Pierre. Not only that but Pierre has one of the worst outfield arms in baseball, so putting him in centerfield hurt the team defense.
The trade was terrible at the time because it obviously was not pushing the Cubs over the top. There was absolutely no reason to believe that Juan Pierre would make the team a contender again, so why give up great prospects if that trade wasn’t going to get them to the playoffs anyway? It’s not like they were trading for three years of Pierre, he was going into the last year of his contract. Even if he did have three years left, you don’t give up that much for Juan freakin Pierre. He’s just not a special player, people just think he is because he steals alot of bases. If he didn’t steal so many bases he probably would already be out of baseball. And the myth that he’s a good leadoff hitter is a joke, hes had an opb of .350 just one time over the last six years.
he may not know how to take a walk, but he is undisputedly one of the league’s best contact hitters and basestealers. He doesn’t have a great OBP is because he almost always puts the ball in play and rarely takes a walk. Of those three “great” prospects you mentioned, only Nolasco was highly regarded. The Marlins didn’t even keep Mitre and Pinto is not that good. The Cubs could afford to give away those prospects at the time for Pierre. Also, Pierre may have a lousy arm, but he STILL covers a ton of range and at that time he covered the most range of his career.
But the main goal of a leadoff hitter is to get on base. They are supposed to be able to draw walks. Guys that get on base more are better than ones who do not, no matter what kind of speed they have.
Not saying Pierre isn’t a good player, but he’s never been great, and was not a good fit for the 2006 Cubs. It was the wrong decision to make at the time, with a team that was more than one move away from competing, and should have been saving it’s young talent. Nolasco was too highly touted of a prospect to give away for one year of a decent cf that doesn’t really do anything for the team.
This is where I disagree with you. I do not believe the leadoff hitters job is simply to get on-base; it’s to get on-base AND score runs. Take Nick Johnson for instance. In 2009, he had among the highest OBP in the leauge, but he only scored 79 runs. Juan Pierre, even on the last place cubs, scored 89 runs and a pitiful Cubs team behind him. I understand your point but I value speed as much as OBP for a leadoff hitter.
Well that’s just one example. And Johnson spent alot of 09 with a not so great Nats lineup. Mark Grace used to score more runs than the cubs top of the order hitters because he got on base more. The way i look at it, the more you get on base the less you get out. Not only does that allow you more chances to score, but also keeps outs of the board, continuing innings and opening it up for the rest of the offense.
Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t put a guy like Nick Johnson leadoff, I would want someone who had at least decent/average speed. And of course the ideal leadoff guy is someone who gets on base at a high rate and steals a ton of bases. That’s why Ricky Henderson was the greatest leadoff hitter of all time. But agree to disagree
Absolutely, it’s only a matter of whats more important speed or OBP. I think it really depends on the team around the leadoff hitter. But you are correct that both are significantly important
trading Josh Hamilton for cash considerations
lol
you shouldn’t comment on things when you don’t know their details. It was a pre-arranged trade because the Cubs had a higher pick in the rule 5 than the Reds. NOBODY expected Hamilton to be anywhere close to the level he is right now, the Reds just thought they mine as well take a flyer on him. If Gm’s expected him to be this good he would have been taken even before the Cubs picked. The only reason Hendry picked him was to get a little free money from the Reds. He had played 15 minor league games in the previous 4 years, it wasn’t like everyone knew he would be a star.
sorry but if that were cashman or minaya passing up on hamilton the NY
press would’ve ate them up alive.
Chicago’s media is much more forgiving. then again, i think the
expectations are a lil different in NY than Chicago
yea I agree with chance on this one, that doesn’t count as Hendry’s fault.
….10 years later, Omar Minaya still hears junk about trading Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore and Brandon Phillips for Bartolo Colon.
at the time, the only prospect that was even rated on baseball america’s top 100 was brandon phillips….Bartolo Colon was the Cliff Lee of his day….
yes but those were prospects they had develop. Hamilton was a rule 5 pick that most people thought had already flamed out. Maybe the media in NY would have ate up a NY GM (which still wouldn’t be fair to the GM) if he had done the same trade, but that’s not the point I was addressing, I was trying to explain the situation to a poster who cleary knew nothing of it. And even though the Chicago media was never it a mad uproar about that move, plenty of people in the media have wrongly blamed Hendry for swinging Hamilton.
either way, why would u give up the chance to have a rule 5 player for 50,000 dollars?
its like he took a page out of the wilpon coupon book of baseball.
Um plenty of teams pass up that chance, most teams don’t take anyone in the rule 5 draft, and even fewer keep those guys. Sure you can find a Hamilton or a Soria or an Uggla, but most rule 5 picks are fails. Are you happy that Hendry snatched up David Patton in the rule 5 a couple years ago?
You obviously don’t know much about how the rule 5 works, so maybe you should stop embarrasing yourself and step away from the keyboard. These draft and trade deals happen all the time in the rule 5.
” MOST teams don’t take anyone in the rule 5 draft”
hyperbole does not = intelligent statements.
how often does the #1 pick in the AMATEUR draft ever hit the RULE 5 draft?
u should do urself a favor and just discontinue your internet service. this whole information age thing is apparently not for you.
Just stop. Hamilton had proved nothing for a four year period. No one would have guessed he still would end up being a star. How many times do I have to repeat that until you get it?
so let me get this straight…
here is an exert from a LIVE CHAT on BASEBALL AMERICA who covered the draft.
9:22 a.m. Some musings on the major league phase while the minor league phase progresses . . .
• Brilliant move by the Cubs on Josh Hamilton; why didn’t we think of that? No one has his upside in this draft, he’s the biggest Rule 5 name Jim Callis or I can recall, and if he can tame his demons, he could produce a big payoff. Perhaps being around big leaguers and a big league atmosphere will bring out the best in Hamilton, and Lou Piniella certainly has been around him from his days in the Devil Rays organization. Same for Tim Wilken, the Cubs’ scouting director. Smart, low-risk move, and maybe it will help the Rays as well. Now they don’t have to deal with Josh Hamilton questions anymore.
——————————————————————————-
so according to the story below, the cubs never intended on picking anyone. that seems to be a FAIL in itself, considering their club in 2007.
the reds actually had the best setup for josh to succeed.
although words are like rocks, once thrown, gone forever, I take back all those mean things i said about u.
———————————————————————–
On June 30, 2006, Hamilton was cleared to return to play for the Rays organization. He played 15 games for low Class A Hudson Valley before a knee injury cut short the comeback.
The best chance ever In the fall, when Major League clubs needed to protect players on their 40-man rosters, Hamilton was not protected by Tampa Bay. It left him exposed to the Rule 5 Draft in December.
Very quietly, the Reds began doing their due diligence on Hamilton. Senior director of scouting Chris Buckley, who lives in the Tampa Bay area, first tipped general manager Wayne Krivsky. Eventually, the consensus in the organization built.
“We decided there was no one in the Rule 5 Draft that compared to Josh in terms of raw ability,” Krivsky said. “[And we thought,] ‘Hey, this is well worth the gamble.'”
It turned out that Narron and Hamilton had a history. Narron’s brother, Johnny, coached Hamilton as a teenager.
“My brother was saying, ‘You have got to see this guy play. He is outstanding,'” Jerry Narron said. “I show up and I didn’t know I was going to see a left-handed-throwing catcher. You could tell when he was 15 years old that he had tremendous ability and tremendous talent.”
Krivsky kept the Hamilton discussions to a limited inner circle. Ownership wasn’t notified for permission until two days before the draft. Even Narron wasn’t informed until the night before at the Winter Meetings. Narron’s jaw dropped when he was given the news.
“[Krivsky] had no idea that I had known him,” Narron said.
To prevent another club from plucking Hamilton, the Reds made a deal with the Cubs to pick for them, who drafted ahead in line. Chicago wasn’t told until it was handed a piece of paper with Hamilton’s name on it just before the draft began.
“‘Whoa, good call. I like it,'” Krivsky recounted being told by Cubs scouting director Tim Wilken.
Chicago selected Hamilton and then sent him to Cincinnati in exchange for cash.
Since the draft, Narron — also a North Carolina resident — began meeting with Hamilton twice a week and threw him batting practice. Also present at the sessions was Johnny Narron, the same former youth coach. Johnny Narron was recently named the Reds’ video and administrative coach.
well he was the 3rd pick of the draft, it wasnt like he was the 45th pick….
he had been clean for 2 years already…
an article written in 2006 before the draft
He tried to catch on in April with an Independent League team in Brockton, Mass., but was prohibited from playing by MLB. The commissioner’s office, though, promised to review his case.
Devil Rays general manager Andrew Friedman got the OK for Hamilton last week. MLB, advised by doctors that a return to baseball might enhance Hamilton’s recovery, granted him “limited privileges.” He is allowed to work with the Devil Rays’ minor leaguers. He will be evaluated again in a week.
Hamilton hit 12 home runs in batting practice in his first workout, including a towering shot of more than 500 feet.
sounds like the reds read that article.
Major League teams don’t make their decisions on what the writer in the local paper says, trust me. They make decisions based on their scouts observations, and the Reds scouts saw something they liked with Hamilton. Sure enough they were right. But it was far from common knowledge, or he would have been picked first in the draft easily.
not really…joakim soria was selected right before josh hamilton….and the rays had the 1st pick so they couldnt select a player they already had.
hendry messed up. if not for trading hamilton for cash, then just giving up the chance to have a player in 07 for 50K.
u cant even get a really hooked up car for 50K.
that was a bobby brown move. sorry.
were you really upset the day that Hamilton was drafted and traded by the Cubs? I highly doubt it.
were expo fans ( all 10 of them ) upset when cliff lee and grady sizemore included in the bartolo colon trade?
probably not.
that doesnt stop people from playing revisionist when assessing the trade does it?
Once again, those were their homegrown prospects, not a rule 5 pick. These type of trades happen all the time, this one just happened to click for the Reds. You look like a fool trying to fault Hendry on this. He’s made plenty of other mistakes, go blame him for those instead
Actually most “experts” were really upset about the Bartolo Colon trade. It was done to try and keep baseball in Montreal supposedly. But yes fans of the Expos and most every baseball fan in america knew what Grady Sizemore was. Cliff Lee on the other hand a lot like what people are saying about Archer now only younger.
article one
CNNSI.com’s John Donovan
Give the Expos credit. They’re clearly not dead ducks. And they’re no stooges for Major League Baseball, either. General manager Omar Minaya is going for it all, right now, by ransoming the team’s uncertain future. It’s a bold, seize-the-moment trade. It strengthens the Expos, no doubt, giving them one of the best top-of-the-rotations in the business. And with what manager Frank Robinson already has done, these Expos will be heard from before this season is done.
I challenge u to find any article or video that even said anything remotely bad about that trade.
that trade if anything is proof positive that all these journalists and media reporters are experts AFTER the fact and are basically F.O.S
Hendry has a history of poor trades, poor signings, lousy contracts (except for the player), and just plain inaction. Just the tips and highlights to refresh your memory… >Trading Mark DeRosa to have enough $ to sign Bradley >Signing Milton Bradley >No action on Kerry Wood-Goes to Cleveland > Signed Fukudome > Signed Pena 1Yr $10M > Let Reed Johnson Go because there wasn’t $ in the budget for him >Signed Alfonso Soriano > Threw a boat load of $ at Carlos Zambrano > Signed LaTroy Hawkins > Let Jason Marquis go
trading Mark DeRosa, who did nothing that next year anyway, landed them Archer. They wouldn’t have Garza right now if it weren’t for that. He is not a lousy trader, just a lousy signer
your really complaining about losing Marquis? And what was so special about Reed Johnson? And you do realize that the Cubs got Archer in return for DeRosa, and DeRosa hasn’t done to much since leaving the Cubs right?
Of all the lousy trades and signings that Hendry has pulled off, it just shows that every once in awhile, even a blind squirrel finds a nut. This has a real advantage for Hendry if he can play this intelligently (that being the operative word). Since Hendry thought it made sense to jettison Derrick Lee and literally throw $10M at Carlos Pena and his .241 career average. Loved last years stats, btw… 28 HR, 84 RBI, 87 BB, 158 K’s, .196 BA, .325 OBP. Guess that’s worth $10M. On the other hand, Hendry did get Matt Garza. A no hitter and 200 inn/yr the last 3 years. He goes to Arbitration next season, but we’ve got a Staff now that looks pretty darn good. If Hendry is smart (which I doubt) he can clean up some of his other mistakes pretty quickly by just waving Zambrano out there… You want Z? He comes with Fukidome. You want Z? You have to take Soriano with him. Hell, You take Z, Fukidome, AND Soriano, you can have Silva too! Hello Seattle, Angels, Dodgers, Mets? Have we got a deal for you! Just call 773-404-2827, and ask for Jim!
way to spell Derrek Lee wrong
I feel this is a solid trade for both teams, the Cubs get a good #2/3 starter who’s under control for the next few years, and is still young enough to improve. While the Rays get 2 good prospects and some depth guys that could help them soon. While I think the Cubs over-payed a bit, I do like Garza and at least the Cubbies got two serviceable prospects in return. Garza might have to get his fly-ball rate down a bit if he wants to be successful in Wrigley, but I think he’ll do fine especially against NL competion rather than the stiff AL East. This also saves TB some money in the short-term to let them try and add another bad potentially, since they are in need of probably a DH after losing a few big pieces in the off-season. You have to give it to TB, they just keep re-stocking that farm system and are likely to be contenders for years to come, bravo.
Looks like the unnamed pitcher is just a throw in eh experts? ya thats what i thought!
DANG! That Rosscup hasn’t given up a homer in 2 years of relief in the minors… impressive!
I’m liking this new picture thing, makes article’s look better ; On the Cubs acquiring Matt Garza, Another guy Pujols can smash on.
Ah, but Pujols and Garza will be teammates after 2011…in Chicago. 😉
Cardinal fans would die.