The White Sox are willing to discuss righty Gavin Floyd, tweets Joel Sherman of the New York Post. I'm sure the return would have to be significant, as Floyd is locked up affordably through 2012 with a club option for '13.
Floyd, 28 in January, posted a 4.08 ERA, 7.3 K/9, 2.8 BB/9, 0.7 HR/9, and career-best 49.9% groundball rate in 2010. He'd be preferable to almost every other available starter, even Cliff Lee if you're not keen on top dollar six-year free agent commitments for pitchers. The Brewers, Rangers, Yankees, Marlins, Nationals, Astros, Pirates, Diamondbacks, Rockies, and Dodgers are among the teams I'd expect to have interest in Floyd.
Get it done Ned! What a rotation that would be.
Trayvon Robinson, Rubby De La Rosa for Gav?
Give us Loney!
Are you kidding? NO.
I can’t tell whether you’re a dodgers or white sox fan, but most other dodgers fans would do that trade, i would guess.
This is from a White Sox fan. You’re going to give up Gavin Floyd for James Loney? NO.
much agreed maybe if it were floy+jarred mitchell+quentin for kemp then we could be talking(resonable trade for both sides)
There is no way Jarred Mitchell would get dealt. He is basically a true rookie, considering he was hurt all last season
I agree. And the Quentin throw-in is insane. I could see Floyd and Jordan Danks for Kemp.
Is this from a Dodger perspective or Sox perspective. The Dodgers would easily add him.
Floyd straight up for Loney?! DONE!!! GO BLUE!!
I would not mind giving loney up at all.
Get it done Cash! What a rotation that would be.
We knew something like this was coming. I’d just rather it be Buehrle.
Buehrle has a cause in his contract that makes his salary increase if he is dealt.
me too but considering sale is in the mix for this year and next year withs buehrles massive contract off the bok next seaosn the sox will have good spending money plus they could always retain jackson
Gavin Floyd for Prince Fielder straight up?
not to be a jerk or anything, but is this a joke?
You don’t think that’s a fair trade? Seems like a solid starting point, at least.
Well, i thought that Fielder could bring in a much greater return.
You’d think so, but if this past July was any indication, maybe not.
Which side hangs up first?
Brew Crew.
Not at all
The Brewers can get a package built around prospects better than Floyd.. When they trade Fielder they will most likely go into semi rebuild mode. Floyd makes no sense to a team that would likely shed money and not contend.
I disagree, even with the loss of Fielder, the offense still has some good pop revolving around Braun and McGee.
Don’t forget Rickie Weeks or Corey Hart.
Exactly.
IMO, the centerpiece of the deal would have to be Gavin Floyd, then we’d have to give them either Brent Morel (move Casey McGehee to 1st base, Morel’s defense is stellar), or give them Dayan Viciedo to play at 1st base, and Eduardo Escobar (shortstop) and we can get Prince Fielder and 3MM in cash to help with Prince’s arbitration raise. That’s always how I’ve envisioned a Fielder trade for the White Sox.
Brewers
No thanks.
That would be great for both sides.
I would hate to see Floyd moved for a one year rental. Fielder wont sign with the Sox and even if Boras and KW would talk, it would be WAY more than the Sox would be willing to pay for an extension
The Sox have holes to fill and unless they are really in a rebuilding mode, I dont see the value of trading a low cost, solid starting pitcher unless they can fill one or two of those holes. Trading Floyd doesnt give them any real payroll flexibility to sign free agents.
I could see them trading Jackson before Floyd but obviously the return wouldnt be as great.
Big question…..will Peavy ever be healthy enough to be affective again?
Yes he will
If we trade Floyd then we should sign Jon Garland….ahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahaahhahaahhaahhahahahahaahahahahaha. I’m sure everyone but Oz would like that!
Get it done Jack Z!! Aardsma and a prospect for Floyd…
Gotta love that 0-6 record and 3.44 ERA as a closer in safeco.
you cant be serious
Sox had Aardsma…he flopped here. KW isn’t going to want him back.
“Mlbtraderumors were overrated closers and bad prospects are proposed for a guy who equaled David Price in WAR last season.”
as a dodger fan floyd for loney is good deal, i been tired of watching has been fight for the 5th spot rotation. Get it done Ned !!!
Joba + Brackman for Flyod?
anyone but joba…
Acutally, if you give us Granderson we’ll give you Floyd and Quentin
Only way I would pull the trigger on that deal if I were Cashman was if I could get a LF either through FA or trade. That would shift Gardner back to CF, and I would plug Quentin in at DH, or rotate him with Swisher in RF. If the Yanks for some reason lose out on Lee, perhaps that’s an option, while going after Crawford to fill that new void in LF.
Thats the silliest proposal Ive seen in quite awhile
I am a professional at silly trade proposals, but silly for what team is what I’m wondering.
I just think that the Sox wouldnt be interested in dealing for an older outfielder. Im not saying that Granderson isnt better than Quentin…but that trade would just create one more spot to fill for the Sox. Trading Floyd for an outfielder is one thing…even though I happen to believe that good pitchers are worth more than outfielders…but ideally if they do that, they plug CQ into the DH spot.
Granderson is a nice player but unless youre confident that CQ cant be more consistent, I dont see where he is worth CQ and Floyd. Granderson is a lifetime .268 hitter. Hes not really cheap going forward.
Ehrm…. Granderson isn’t really an older outfielder.
Hes older than Quentin. Thats what I meant
As a Yankees fan, it’d take more than Joba and Brackman to get Floyd. Joba’s trade value is severely diminished after last year, and Brackman is still recovering from his surgery. Yes, both have high ceilings, however I think one more good prospect would have to be included for that deal to be done.
I would definitely support that kind of deal, though. Floyd is much better than Vazquez, so we’d have an improvement there. He has the potential of an ace pitcher IMO, and has shown flashes of brilliance. Once he pieces it all together, he’ll be a quality #2-3 starter.
You are one of the extremely rare Yankee fans with intelligence.
I appreciate that compliment. 🙂
My Kenny Williams sense is tingling. He’s going to be making a big move soon.
I wonder what it would take from the Rockies.
Gavin Floyd for Colby Rasmus.
The Cards would never do that. A young cost controlled CF with power and plus defense is worth a tad bit more than a good number 2/3 starter.
let’s not talk rasmus, Ferrariman will talk BS to us saying “that’s not enough”
Its not though.
Obviously.
How about Floyd and Beckham? I think that’s enough.
That is too much, too. Floyd and Jordan Danks.
Jordan Danks is a 4th outfielder at best. he gets no deal for Rasmus done. I think Beckham and Floyd is a lot, but you have to realize Rasmus’s talent. I think the Sox would ask for a little bit back more than Rasmus, but if you want Rasmus, you need to give up a lot.
already had aardsma. Keep it.
The Sox will be looking to fill at least 2 holes (1B,OF,RP) by dealing Gavin.
If Kenny Williams is discussing Gavin Floyd in public, then every Sox fan knows that he will soon be moving John Danks.
Ive been saying for a while now that it wouldnt surprise me a bit if Danks were moved this off season. Its not that hes not a good pitcher…in fact I believe he will have his best year in 2011. Its because he has thus far refused to sign a long term deal like Floyd has. Danks will become quite expensive soon if he continues his growth and doesnt agree to a deal. For that reason alone, he would seem to be a great trade option for the Sox. He is still young, a lefty, and has huge upside. I could see Kenny moving him but it would have to be for a difference maker..and not a rental
This cannot / will not happen… Buehrle and Jackson are FA after 2011 and Peavy will never be a top tier rotation guy again, let alone who knows if he’ll ever pitch again.
If we trade Floyd… who the heck is our rotation in 2012? Danks, Sale (maybe), Peavy, Harrell… That sounds like a 4th/5th place finish, easily.
“f**k the future” – Kenny Williams
That sounds more like a Kenny Powers quote, than a Kenny Williams quote, but I love your optimism… haha
2012 Rotation/ Buehrle, Peavy, Floyd, Sale, TBD righty we acquire in a trade
Buehrle will re-sign unless he retires. He talks about wanting to go to STL, but he’ll spend his career on the south side.
Danks is my favorite player right now, but he carries the most value and he’s the most unwilling to sign long-term. If anyone gets moved, it will be him.
Most teams can’t figure out their 5 man rotation for next year, let alone 2012. Don’t worry about the 4th/5th guy right now, things will work out. Who saw Chris Sale coming this time last year?
Buehrle seems to not really care to continue to be here long term. No one knows if Sale can be a SP in the MLB. He’s shown he has the tools to be a setup or closer. Peavy may be done and I wouldn’t plan on him being any more than a 4th rotation guy, if we’re lucky.
My point is to not worry about what the rotation will look like in 2 years. The teams themselves don’t know what it will look like, let alone online fanboys.
I’d love to see the Pirates get in on this. What about Justin Wilson + Zack Von Rosenburg + Chase D’Arnaud for Gavin Floyd?
Is wilson the guy who pitched for Fresno State?
Yeah, he’s a former fifth-round pick. Man, if the Pirates can deal for Floyd and Scutaro and sign Webb, then they could contend this year.
That’s a very good trade proposal, but a trade I would do in a heartbeat is Gavin Floyd and maybe Brent Morel for Pedro Alvarez, hey I’m just dreaming here.
Floyd + Jared Mitchell for McCutchen?
I’m not sure they’d do that…Gorkys Hernandez isn’t quite ready for the big leagues, and Mitchell had ankle surgery this spring. That would leave their starting outfield as Tabata, Jones, and Milledge; I doubt they’d want that.
Did you read what you just wrote as our outfield? What a joke, please delete your post.
Did you read my post? I said that I doubt that the Pirates want Tabata, Jones, and Milledge to be the starting outfield.
Well you asking for Floyd while offering 3 nobody minor leaguers is just as silly. Peavy is out until mid-May at the earliest. Sale hasn’t started at the major league level. That leaves us with 4 starters (Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Jackson). Why would we trade anyone of them for your low level minor leaguers when the White Sox are a lot closer to playoff competition than the Pirates?
R U STUPID!!!??? COME ON MANNNNN! Cutch isnt going anywhere for that garbage
lol how bout G.I Jones and a pitching prospect for Floyd?
Garret Jones and Justin Wilson to White Sox for Gavin Floyd makes sense
pirates might have to throw in another prospect though
I think the Sox would want more Major League pieces. Neil Walker would be a good starting point. And no you aren’t getting Cutch or Pedro, guys.
Just the fact that Gavin Floyd is available and making other teams salivate is another testament to just how great Don Cooper has done with our staff over the years. Gavin Floyd came to the Sox in a trade for Freddy Garcia who was coming off a pretty bad year. Floyd was a “failed prospect” in Philly. With a little Coop-Magic, Gavin is now being talked about netting some premier hitters in baseball. Amazing.
In Coop We Trust.
Floyd for Fielder. Its going to happen. Kenny already inquired last year but we wanted more than just Hudson.
Floyd for Prince, its gotta happen. Kenny inquired last year but we wanted more than just Hudson
I would not do Floyd straight up for Fielder. I like Big Cecil, but the one year rental turns me off – and Kenny doesn’t usually do them, either. Now Braun – as a WSox fan I would throw in some extras like Danks or Mitchell for him. Or, I would give EJackson and either low prospects or eat 2011 $$$ for Fielder.
JORDAN Danks, that is.
No way the Brewers would take EJackson for Prince. And no way Braun will be traded. Franchise player who makes less then 10 mil a year for the next four years. His contract is way to good to trade. I still think Floyd for Prince happens. We will see
Agreed. Braun’s value is one of the highest in baseball.
So if Braun is the franchise, that puts Fielder in the proper light as a “Robin” to a “Batman.”
Fielder for Floyd doesn’t make much sense for the brewers though. I agree about Braun but not about fielder
Well Melvin waited way too long to trade Prince. Unfortunately Prince doesnt have a ton of value right now. Whoever gets him will only get him for one year and he had a down year last year. Still good for many standards. Nobody wants a rental. Maybe I’m wrong but I just dont see a lot of teams jumping at Fielder and giving the farm for him
Doumit, Jones, LaRoche(or Young)…. FOR ….. Floyd, Beckham???
#1 pitcher to the Bucs and an entire new infield….
Walker 3b, Cedeno SS (for now), Beckham 2b, Alvarez 1b…. Yup!!!
We wouldn’t give up Beckham for Halladay. Why do we want your garbage?
plus, beckham is on the block
If he’s on the block, we’ll accept the first garbage offer of 30 year old replacement players.
I’m going to borrow something from you.
R U STUPID!!!??? COME ON MANNNNN! Becks isnt going anywhere for that garbage
I dont see that as being realistic to be honest, the Pirates would need to make a better package for Floyd by himself; let alone for both he and Beckham.
However I could see something like this:
Pirates Send: Andy Laroche, Ryan Doumit, Robbie Grossman, and then Pick One of the following pitchers (Michael Crotta//Zack Von Rosenberg/Colton Cain)
Sox Send : Gavin Floyd
Is anyone you offered a major league level LEFT handed power hitter? No. NEXT! Thanks for being more reasonable than SteelCity13 though.
If you DH him, Ryan Doumit is. Also, Im sure Garret Jones isnt out of the question.
I would even be willing to consider Jones, LaRoche, Crotta and Cain/or Rosenberg. Surely thats not far off.
Please stop, you’re embarrassing yourself. Jones and LaRoche are busts and past the growth ages. If you want a major league pitcher for minor leaguers, go work on teams that are already out of contention..like the Royals, Mariners, Diamondbacks, and oh, Pirates.
The Pirates shouldn’t deal McCutchen or Alvarez and the White Sox don’t want LaRoche or Doumit, so let’s get those guys out of the discussion. The Pirates should start by offering Joel Hanrahan, Justin Wilson, and a lower minor leaguer for Floyd and go from there.
And the White Sox are in contention (I would like to believe), so we don’t want low minor leaguers for Floyd. Let’s just agree that there won’t be a trade that makes sense between our teams.
The last thing anyone wants to do is DH a catcher not named Mauer, and 10-15 HRs hardly labels someone as a power hitter. Even Victor Martinez at DH is a downgrade. And Garret Jones is out of the question from the White Sox side. We already have Carlos Quentin as our low average power hitter.
Too bad you can’t get someone like Mauer or Martinez (That’s not even remotely imaginable), besides Doumit is only good with the bat and would definitely be a solid DH for someone like the White Sox. He could hit 20 HR’s and have a BA of .260 which isn’t too bad imo.
20 HRs and a .260 BA is awful for a DH. We wouldn’t need Mauer or V-Mart because we wouldn’t put a CATCHER at DH.
Again, 20 HRs is probably Doumits ceiling, since he never hit more than 15. 20 HRs should be the minimum for a DH. Use some logic people.
“20 HRs should be the minimum for a DH. Use some logic people.”
We are talking about the Sox’ DH?
“””Full time DH”””” I triple quoted for your benefit.
Yes our DH rotation last year failed. The players we currently have are more than capable of failing themselves. We don’t need to give up valuable assets in a trade for other team’s failures.
mg, we (Sox) do have an alternate direction. If we trade him for a lower level starter, a starting CF (we can shift Rios to RF and CQ to DH), and then the high prospects our system needs. Then we can use our saved $$$ for the power lefty we need.
Ok, and where in these Pirate offers is there a low end starter and CF? Doumit is a reasonable replacement for AJ, but not somebody who is so much better than giving a shot to Tyler Flowers. Jones is a near 30 1B/RF who had a decent rookie half season and then regressed last year. LaRoche is just embarrassing. 27, .206 average, no plate discipline, no power, how does anyone think he has any value left?
Gavin Floyd is Gavin Floyd…no more, no less.
As a DH, Doumit would easily be a .275 25 hr guy. The issue is he cant stay healthy catching. If he isnt hurt, he is a fantastic hitter. Unfortunately we dont play in the american league and cant utilize him.
Secondly, Jones is under team control for peanuts for the next 4 seasons, and is still a 20 + HR platoon bat.
And the other pitchers I named have just as much, if not more pedigree than Floyd. (Well, not Michael Crotta)
Floyd is most appealing because he is capable and has a team friendly contract, not because he is Halladay or Lee.
The only reason Fielder is even being mentioned here is because Princes value is as low as its been in 2 yrs because of Bob Melvins mismanagement of the scenario.
I never said Gavin Floyd was a good pitcher. He is Jon Garland in his prime at a cheaper price tag. Still, I would much rather have a reliable 200 inning eater that can provide a 4.00 ERA rather than a catcher who has never hit more than 15 HRs in his career. A 10 HR improvement is probably his ceiling. Unfortunately, 25 HRs for a full time DH should be the floor. You either sign/trade for a legit DH or you plug in your own garbage into the spot. You don’t trade for garbage, what’s the point?
Secondly, don’t try to sell me why your players are awesome and my players are worthless, sell that to the front office. I’m fully aware Gavin isn’t Halladay or Lee and that he’s a cost controlled average pitcher in his prime. Are you ready to admit your players suck as well? (I think they suck more but I’m not going to ask you to admit that)
I was by no means endorsing the Pirate proposals by Devern or Dempsey. I am just saying a trade can accomplish our improvement without landing the lefty power bat – which I agree whole heartedly that we need.
Not to be a jerk or anything, but Doumit is just an average catcher and Andy Laroche is garbage. I’m not aware of the farm system much, but those guys don’t have any experience above AA.
A trade i would do with the Marlins would be
Gavin Floyd and Dayan Viciedo for Pedro Alvarez
Gavin Floyd and Jordan Danks for Jose Tabata
Gavin Floyd for Joel Hanrahan and Garrett Jones.
Alvarez projects to be a power hitting 3B with a fair number of strike outs and less than avg defense. In other words, he IS Dayan Viciedo. Why would I give up a 4.5 WAR pitcher and a rookie for just the same rookie back?
Prince is their best offensive threat. He won’t be easy to replace. Subtracting Fielder for Floyd only makes sense if the Brewers have a legit option for 1st. Gamel? Well see.
Corey Hart could always play first base. Thats what he played when he originally came up. Also they were playing Gamel in the outfield in Triple A towards the end of the year last year
Kick the tires Cashman. Joba, Brackman, Miranda, and Murphy. Vamonos.
Here’s the thing, Brew fans. Prince IS going to be GONE in 12 months. Whoever wants him can wait, like the league did with Dunn, and is apparently doing with even Adrian Gonzales. So the question is, what can you get when the getting is NOT good? It is either going to be a bunch of unproven kids, or a few mid-level major leaguers, or a combination there of. Unless someone (Cubs?) does a Major League stupid, that is what you are destined for.
As a Brewers fan this is very possible. Melvin waited far too long to trade him we will see. But if anyone would pull the trigger and maybe overpay a bit it would be Kenny.
In 2010, Fan Graphs pegged Floyd’s value (which is based on WAR) at $17.4M which tied him for 21st (along with teammate J. Danks) among all ML starting pitchers.
This $17.4M value was higher than David Price, Matt Cain, Cole Hamels and Clay Buchholz to name a few.
Gavin Floyd turns 28 in January 2011. He is under contract for $5M in 2011 and $7M in 2012 with a team option in 2013 for $9.5M.
Floyd is a young, talented starting pitcher who flies under the radar. He is under team control for his 3 prime years. His contract is unbelievably cheap. He has significant trade value.
Anyone who believes a Floyd-for-Loney trade is fair is looney.
Prince for Floyd make it happen
Id be pissed if Kenny lost Floyd for one year of Fielder
Which is why I do not even like him for Fielder, again because of the 1-year probability on Fielder. Sox should get something for him that will last at least a few years.
Rule of thumb: As a fan, if you’re trying desperately to move your own players, they have even less value than you’re giving them credit for. Enough of these silly trade proposals.In other words, Floyd cannot get Prince. Garbage Pirate minor leaguers cannot get Floyd. David Aardsma cannot get Floyd. Near and over 30 busts are not worth anything even if they were a prospect at one time. Bobby Jenks is not worth anything. Yankee prospects are always overvalued. And Carlos Quentin cannot get younger players (Rasmus) who already outproduce him offensively and defensively.
So could Floyd and Jordan Danks get either Rasmus or Kemp?
Pirates minor leaguers are actually not too bad, thank you very much. Look at Jameson Taillon, Stetson Allie, and Tony Sanchez.
Too bad those weren’t the players your fellow Pirate fans were offering in trades on this board this afternoon.
EDIT: Actually 1 fan offered low ceiling double A-single A prospects. The other one offered garbage 30 year olds Doumit, Jones, and LaRoche.
Doumit and Jones can both anchor that lineup in positions your team needs filled.
Doumit is a stud when healthy
Jones just had his first full season and got tired. His condition will be better this year and his numbers will only get better.
LaRoche still has potential. He is great at defense. He is still young enough that if he puts in the time and gets his head right, he can show his true colors.
Floyd is a #2-3 starter for most teams, #1 for Pirates.
Beckham has not proven anything either. As far as I am concerned, he has been a bust so far as well.
The Sox have the money to spend, they are just going to continue reloading. And why are you talking about 30 Year old players like that is old? They both have at least 5-7 years left in this league, 4 should be productive.
LaRoche, a 27 year old corner infielder who hit .206/.268/.287 and fielded .939 in his 4th year is “young enough” to improve. However, Beckham, a 24 year old middle infielder who hit .252/.317/.378 and fielded .981 in his 2nd year is a bust? Do you hear yourself? Just stop, just stop embarrassing yourself now.
Oh Jones got tired, poor boy. I don’t want a player on my team that gives up because he’s tired.
If Doumit can’t stay healthy in Pittsburgh, I don’t like his chances of staying healthy in Chicago. I’ve already talked about the futility of putting a catcher at DH, so lets not start that again.
This is what numbers are for, to bring biased overzealous fanboys back to reality. Intangibles and gut feeling are the crutch of the stupid.
Bench player vs. Starter? I wonder who is going to be more productive?? hmmmmm
Beckham …. 1st round pick
LaRoche …. 39th round pick
= Beckham isnt performing as well as he should in that lineup hitting NINTH!!!!
Lol you just proved my point. Why do we want to trade a starter for a bench player? There’s a reason someone’s starting and a reason why someone’s benched. Just stop.
What does it say about someone when he’s not even good enough to start for the Pirates?
Yeah because LaRoche is the only player I had in the deal. I never had two STARTERS in the mix, Doumit, Jones. Two STARTERS that fill positions on the field that your team needs! Adding one of our top pitching prospects to the offer (not our recent picks), Chitown comes out on top with the offer. I’m done talking to you.
Wouldn’t mind seeing the red sox get into trade talks for John dank, and/or beckham.
wouldn’t mind seeing the white sox get into trade talks for clay buchholz and/or jacoby ellsbury.
Floyd for Ellsbury sounds like a fair starting point. But Danks… sorry. He is younger, a lefty, and with a little more upside. I doubt Red Sox are dealing buchholz for almost anything.
I would make that trade. Floyd for Ellsbury + middle relief or low upside minor starter.
Ellsbury > Floyd .
Ellsbury has/had more potential, but getting on the field for only 18 games last season sure hurts his value.
Ellsbury’s highest career WAR(s) were 3.9 and 2.7 in ’08 and 09. Floyd’s were in ’09 and ’10, 4.6 and 4.3. Floyd > Ellsbury in the REAL world.
Look at Floyd’s interleague pitching stats sometime. He pitches so well against the NL, plus he’s so inexpensive that it’d be hard to say no to a Gavin (+ a little something extra) for Prince trade. The Brewers need a guy that can give them help against some of the other big-name pitchers in their division. Plus, there’s no way they’re going to extend Fielder, so they might as well get something now while the getting’s good.
Check out Floyd’s numbers in interleague play. The guy does really well against the NL, plus he’s relatively inexpensive for a small-market team like Milwaukee, so a Gavin-for-Prince trade makes some sense. The Brewers won’t be able to extend Fielder for as long as his weasel agent would like, so it’d be best to get something for him while the getting’s good.
Sorry for the double-post. Newbie.
I think the Brewers trade Prince,Parra and Gamel for Danks,Beckham and a top pitching prospect and 1st base prospect.
y would the sox ever dream of doing that. i just came on here to read some interesting thoughts and i wished i would have done something else… the only thing i learned is people from pittsburgh are not bright peoplle, if u think all ur young 27-30 year olds have great potential then keep them cause nobody else wants them and why is there an over flow of pirates fans on here anyways… the sox arent trading floyd so they can have extra money to spend on fa cause floyd is cheap for his production value, which is why teams are salvating over him…kenny isnt going to trade him just to trade him for young player, elisberry is a trade worth considering, potential starting grounds for an upton trade is a trade worth doing, prince with a new contract is a potential starting point but doumit is not a starting point and neither is james loney so lets stop all this optimimism of random teams comming on and proposing deals that help their own team by dishing off the garbage of another team to the sox cause it wont happen… im waiting for a nationals fan to come on and offer willingham, morse, and jason marquis and tell me that its a good trade for the sox