The Red Sox exercised David Ortiz's $12.5MM option for 2011, according to Peter Abraham of the Boston Globe. Big Papi has continually voiced his desire for a multi-year deal, but he's only under contract for 2011 at this point. The sides could renegotiate the deal to cover 2012 and beyond if the Red Sox like the idea of keeping Ortiz in Boston.
The 34-year-old recently told Rob Bradford that he considers himself “one of the best hitters in the game” and he has some impressive numbers on his side. Ortiz was among the American League leaders in slugging (8th, .529), OPS (8th, .899), home runs (5th, 32) and walks (9th, 82) this year.
The Rangers declined their side of the $9MM option for DH Vladimir Guerrero yesterday.
Yikes! Not sure I agree with this one, Yankee bias aside, not sure this was a sound financial investment for the team. Who knows..
I think it’s a small risk for the Sox. It’s a 1 year deal so it’s not going to hurt them IF Ortiz has a bad year. The mistake would’ve been to sign him to a multi year deal.
I agree. My only concern is if he’s gonna mope around now. I wouldn’t mind a multiyear deal if it was heavily based on performance. Also, the one year deal may motivate him to get out of the gate a little quicker compared to last 2 seasons.
The thing is it’s like the jeter situation: he has more use to the redsox then he does to anyone else. Nobodys going to forget what he did anytime soon unless they’re some serius fairweather fans. He’s a guy thats going to put buts in the seats.
1st
not
They will probably try and work a multi-year deal, this just gave them more exclusive negotiating rights to him.
I sure hope they won’t. A multi-year deal doesn’t make any sense at this point of his career.
I think a 2 year 18 million works for both sides.
it might yes, I just don’t think he’ll be worth it. he would never get a deal like that on the open market.
Was Ortiz looking for them to pick up his option or decline it and bring a lengthy contract? I can’t remember which one he wanted. That’s a lot of money for a DH, but then again look at A-Rod :(.
I wouldn’t compare Ortiz and Arod.
Maybe I should have said A-Rod in a few years? So much money…
Fair enough, but let’s address that in uh..a few years.
Fair enough, I’ll pencil this into my schedule ;). Curious as to when the Yanks will start making their moves.
They already have. They’ve declined several options. You know those uh…$10mm + kind, similar to what the red sox will probably do with Ortiz when the time comes…oh wait.
LOL, true. I have seen the posts so far about Berkman, Wood, and Kearns. I’m just curious as to when we will see the big reports :). I hope you don’t think I’m a Red Sox fan or something.
That cut me deep man….. deeeeepppp
I agree that Ortiz an A-Rod are not great comparables, but they are both the same age and in decline. Ortiz outproduced his contract an 2010, slightly but still, while A-Rod earned almost twice as much as his performance was worth and still under contract for what, 6-7 years? yikes
Again, lets talk about Arod in a few years when it matters. For the time being, he is vastly superior to Ortiz.
if you call a difference of 0,8 WAR over the last year vastly
WAR is used to show a players value vs league average at his POSITION. So Arod’s WAR as a 3B (3.9) is vastly different than Ortiz WAR as a DH (3.3). If you think in terms of the real world, how many 3B are available on the open market than can provide lge average to slightly below lge avg defense as well as a minimum of .280/.350 30 hrs + every year? Now how many DH’s can you get to provide the same .280/.350 30 hrs every year? Now with regards to WINS as opposed to salary who is more valuable to their team? Any team would be hard pressed to find a 3B like that on the market but a DH would me 10x easier.
WAR already takes position into consideration. If, hypothetically, Ortiz played 3rd base without putting up negative dWAR, he would have a higher WAR than A-Rod. The difference in WAR between the two is just .8- no more, no less.
THis is where ppl need to use common sense when it comes to stats. True WAR handicapps each position based on defensive relevance etc. C, CF and Middle IF are valued more than a DH.
Arod had a WAR of 3.9 which ranked him 4th overall behind Beltre, Bautista and Longoria among AL 3B. Let’s ignore the fact that Bautista only played 38 games @ 3B for a second. Ortiz is ranked as the #1 DH in WAR @ 3.3, even though they only had 7 players listed as “DH’s”. But what does that really mean? In the real world how difficult is it to find a 3B who can do what Arod does vs finding a DH that does what Ortiz does?
Look at their actual stats:
Arod- .271/.341/.506 w/ 30 hrs w/ 141 hits , 59 BB and 3 IBB in 595 PA
Ortiz- .270/.370/.529 w/ 32 hrs w/ 140 hits , 82 BB and 2 IBB in 606 PA
Everything is pretty much similar aside from a 0.29 difference in OBP which in this case, since hits, PA and IBB are almost identical, you can say is due to the difference of 23 more walks for Ortiz.
The positional adjustments are:
+1.0 wins C
+0.5 SS/CF
+0.0 2B/3B
-0.5 LF/RF/PH
-1.0 1B
-1.5 DH
So for some reason, 3B are not really given any intrinsic value as far as WAR is concerned. DH’s are penalized -1.5.
So let’s use real common sense for a second. If you “unfactor” (is that a word?) position out of the equation then according to WAR Arod would still be worth 3.9 WAR and the position negated WAR of Ortiz would be 4.8. So effectively, according to WAR the difference of value between the two, adjusted or not, is only +/- .06 to .09 and THAT is what I have a problem coming to grips with. In the real world how many 3B can do what Arod does? In the real world how many DH’s (DH in the strict sense seeing as how any player can be a DH) can do what Ortiz does?
So to simply use WAR to value a player or their season still leaves a TON to be desired. The same can be said using defensive metrics like UZR where they gave Dunn a -3.1 and Tex a -2.9 as 1B. Metrics are great but there are still glaring inconsistencies I can wrap myself around.
I think WAR is better to use in apples to apples position comparison but would anyone doubt that Elvis Andrus w/ a 1.5 WAR would add signifigantly more improvements (= wins) over Ortiz at DH w/ a 3.3 WAR?
You can’t say that any hitter could be slotted in at DH. There’s a reason there are so few true, good DH’s in the league. Most players not only would rather play in the field, but they also wouldn’t take a pay cut. Even if you could convince, say, a Prince Fielder to DH he’s not going to take 12 million dollars to do it. Only a handful of teams can afford to stash a 20 million dollar contract at DH, and even then it’s not a good idea. It may SOUND strange, but DH is a position of value and the difference between having Ortiz at DH and A-Rod at 3rd really isn’t that huge. It’s not like no one can figure out that anyone CAN play DH.
I can’t see the arguement that any position player CAN’T be a DH. Whether they would want to do it is one thing. But that’s not my case. If the Yanks were insane enough to go after Albert Pujols then either he or Tex would be a fine DH. Obviously it would be a waste of talent and would never happen but in theory, sure it could and w/o a hitch. Ask any Boston fan which is infinetly more difficult to find? A avgerage glove great bat 3B or a good bat DH?
Your statement of “Most players not only would rather play in the field, but they also wouldn’t take a pay cut” also makes no sense and holds no logic because no one is asking them to take a pay cut. I don’t even think it’s debatable that there are fewer Arod’s than there are Ortiz’.
“It may SOUND strange, but DH is a position of value and the difference between having Ortiz at DH and A-Rod at 3rd really isn’t that huge”.
The DH position is a position of value simply because of their offensive ability. However, offense is only half of what a traditional player bring to the table. Most DH’s are DH’s because either they are horrible defensively, are injury prone or more subject to suffer from day to day field play or because there’s an overflow at 1 position but they still want their bat in the lineup.
Current DH’s w/ at least 20 hrs and an OBP of .340 or better.
Ortiz, Vlad, Scott, Thome, Matsui.
Guys that probably SHOULD be DH’s if the NL had them and if their teams were desperate:
Dunn, Fielder, Konerko, Huff, Lee, Soriano, Encarnarcion, Abreu.
Guys who if healthy and were DH 100% of the time would probably produce 20 HRS and a .340 OBP
Posada, Hafner, Burrell, Glaus, Ibanez, Berkman, Ordonez, Thames, Cust
That’s 22 players right there. Add another 25 guys who have bats good enough to justify being a DH. That’s 47 players w/o even struggling.
Now how many 3B had at least 20 hrs and a .340 OBP?
Arod, Wright, Beltre, Zimmerman, Longoria and Rolen. Add on another few that had close to that or off years (Sandoval, MCGhee, Reynolds, Young and Chipper). That’s a total of 11 if I stretch and allow guys who didn’t meet the criteria but have in the past or came close.
Add to that the fact that having the ABILITY to play a position slightly below or above the mlb level and these players add a tremendous more value to their team.
So when you look at a 3.9 WAR for a 3B and a 3.3 WAR for a DH there’s no way you can claim that there’s only a 0.05 difference in their value. Mathematically yes there is only a .05 difference. But in the real world, applying the law of supply and demand of 3B that can play an adequate 3B and hit 20 hrs/.340 OBP (11) vs the supply and demand of DH’s that can do the same (47) and it’s not even close.
THis is where ppl need to use common sense when it comes to stats. True WAR handicapps each position based on defensive relevance etc. C, CF and Middle IF are valued more than a DH.
Arod had a WAR of 3.9 which ranked him 4th overall behind Beltre, Bautista and Longoria among AL 3B. Let’s ignore the fact that Bautista only played 38 games @ 3B for a second. Ortiz is ranked as the #1 DH in WAR @ 3.3, even though they only had 7 players listed as “DH’s”. But what does that really mean? In the real world how difficult is it to find a 3B who can do what Arod does vs finding a DH that does what Ortiz does?
Look at their actual stats:
Arod- .271/.341/.506 w/ 30 hrs w/ 141 hits , 59 BB and 3 IBB in 595 PA
Ortiz- .270/.370/.529 w/ 32 hrs w/ 140 hits , 82 BB and 2 IBB in 606 PA
Everything is pretty much similar aside from a 0.29 difference in OBP which in this case, since hits, PA and IBB are almost identical, you can say is due to the difference of 23 more walks for Ortiz.
The positional adjustments are:
+1.0 wins C
+0.5 SS/CF
+0.0 2B/3B
-0.5 LF/RF/PH
-1.0 1B
-1.5 DH
So for some reason, 3B are not really given any intrinsic value as far as WAR is concerned. DH’s are penalized -1.5.
So let’s use real common sense for a second. If you “unfactor” (is that a word?) position out of the equation then according to WAR Arod would still be worth 3.9 WAR and the position negated WAR of Ortiz would be 4.8. So effectively, according to WAR the difference of value between the two, adjusted or not, is only +/- .06 to .09 and THAT is what I have a problem coming to grips with. In the real world how many 3B can do what Arod does? In the real world how many DH’s (DH in the strict sense seeing as how any player can be a DH) can do what Ortiz does?
So to simply use WAR to value a player or their season still leaves a TON to be desired. The same can be said using defensive metrics like UZR where they gave Dunn a -3.1 and Tex a -2.9 as 1B. Metrics are great but there are still glaring inconsistencies I can wrap myself around.
I think WAR is better to use in apples to apples position comparison but would anyone doubt that Elvis Andrus w/ a 1.5 WAR would add signifigantly more improvements (= wins) over Ortiz at DH w/ a 3.3 WAR?
ehh, with Vlad on the market I can’t believe they did this.
Vlad would have trouble staying loose in Boston it’s cold at the beggining and end of the season. With his past injury issues it would have been a problem. I think Dunn would have been the more reasonable option.
yeah, kind of like Ortiz and his frigid starts the last couple of years
I’ve never heard that applied to a hitter. Pitchers? Yes. Hitters? Not sure if I follow that.
UUUGGHHH. Vlad got declined a 9m option. Dunn is on the market for the same price. This just doesn’t work for me.
For those that don’t pay attention.. Dunn has been saying for the last few years he does not want to play DH and with him being a FA.. Why in the world would he sign a FA contract where he would do that as a FT job?
I am just hoping that he realizes he is awful defensively and that he is a DH and not anything else. I am sure he is a turnoff to a lot of NL teams due to being stubborn.
Am truly with you there in the outfield, Dunn is a highlight film unto himself attempting to play and corner spot, much like Jose Canseco used to be way back.
Could you see him trying to play RF at Fenway after Drew leaves as an example if Boston signed him as a platoon DH/RF? It would be disastrous.
His bat would be perfect and am with you 100% there.
I’d rather have him at 1B and switch Youkilis to 3B but Dunn was no gloveman at 1B this year either. But probably better then Papi.
I assume you mean a turn off to AL teams since he doesn’t have the option to play anywhere else in the NL?
Not good – He would get 6M on open market -Sox got to be working on 2yr deal.
12.5 year one – free year two. just kidding
lol. good one
For all those creatures that disagree with me about how poor of a GM Epstein is, well here is this…He does it every year. Shoots his load too quickly. Last year those insane contracts for Cameron and Lackey. Well Lackey at least would have had other bidders. If anyone believes Epstein did this to keep Ortiz away from the Yanks, well that’s just ridiculous. He could have waited on the Ortiz thing. I just don’t get his moves many times.
you’re kidding right? yes he could’ve waited. until tomorrow. Cameron’s deal wouldn’t look this bad if he didn’t get injured. Lackey, well, i hate that contract, too.
But the Beltre contract worked out pretty well…
Why don’t you go troll on some NYY topic? Your tired and never helpful posts grew tired months ago.
Please just cease and desist these antics of yours.
I do post on NYY sections as well as others. There is nothing wrong with my comments. Just like when I go to any Yankee topic and 95% of the comments are all the same, none original. The yankees are ruining baseball, the yankees spend too much, and so on…I do not and never make inappropriate comments about the players. In fact, I rarely if ever, criticize any Red Sox players. I am entirely looking at this from the business side and yeah, its apparent I do not like Theo Epstein. That will not change. By the tone of your comment I sense your frustration just isn’t dealing with my comments. Further, just like anyone else, I am entitled to my opinion. Thanks.
He couldn’t have waited, he had to decline or accept Ortiz’s option by today. If the Sox want Ortiz back for only one year, this is probably the best way to do it. Yeah, they’re overpaying, but that’s what big market teams do.
Agreed. And if they declined the option and offered a “reasonable” contract to Ortiz, he likely would have gotten pissy and found another team that would “appreciate him”. I think if the sox had not exercised this option, it is unlikely no matter what that they would have been able to resign him. It definitely is an overpay, but it is only for the single year.
I don’t think the Yanks would’ve had any interest in Ortiz. The Yanks don’t need another lefty who can’t hit lefties. If anything they need a RH DH. With the switch hitting Posada slated to get more time at DH, Montero knocking on the door to the bigs as a C/DH and Arod needing some time off, I wouldn’t see Ortiz being a fit, especially considering he would probably want at least $10 mil per and a multi year deal?
I’m not a fan of the Cameron deal, but like mowses said, if he didn’t get injured, who knows. The Lackey deal, right now doesn’t look good. I’m not ready to condemn Lackey after one season. He pitched well over his final 6 starts, lets see if there’s a carry over. The deadline on Ortiz was midnight, so I guess he shot his load about 12 hours early. And it’s not always about the Yankees, sorry to tell ya.
Lackey’s poor performance is overblown based off of an absolutely miserable first half. After the All Star Break, he put up numbers just shy of his career numbers. I’d never try to tell anyone he’s earning his contract, but for a third or fourth starter? He’s been pretty solid since the break:
His K/9 jumped by about two, his K/BB more than doubled, his ERA dropped over 3/4 of a run (3.97 in the second half) and his WHIP was a respectable 1.2. Again, he had an absolutely appalling first half, but his second half pegs him as a very viable #3 starter, which is what he was supposed to be going into the season.
I totally agree. Of course everyone hates the deal now. How was Beckett in his first year in Boston? I expect a rebound to numbers similar to career averages (3.80 ERA, 1.20 WHIP), which if Lester and Buchholz repeat and Beckett regains pre-2010 form, will be a nice 3rd or 4th in the rotation in 2011. Nothing wrong with that!
I totally agree. Of course everyone hates the deal now. How was Beckett in his first year in Boston? I expect a rebound to numbers similar to career averages (3.80 ERA, 1.20 WHIP), which if Lester and Buchholz repeat and Beckett regains pre-2010 form, will be a nice 3rd or 4th in the rotation in 2011. Nothing wrong with that!
I don’t know. That sounds an awful lot like the conversation I had w/ a Giants fan who called Zito a great #5 starter. Yes, great in terms of production, but NO when you factor in the $18 mil he was getting paid.
You say Lackey was a good 3rd or 4th starter but he’s only viewed as a 3rd or 4th because he was outperformed by Lester and Buccholz and perception says Beckett is still a FOR guy. If he had been signed by the Cleveland Indians w/ the same contract and expected to be their ace then he would be viewed as a major dissapointment. I think expectations and salary have to be factored into any discussion regarding evaluations of guys like Lackey, AJ and Zito.
A great comparison would be Lackey and Phil Hughes. Each had 1 really bad half and 1 really good (or better) half.
Lackey- 215 IP, 4.40 ERA and 1.42 whip w/ a 4 WAR
Hughes- 176 IP, 4.19 ERA and 1.25 whip w/ a 2.4 WAR (don’t understand that)
Both similar stats and arguably I could say they were each 3rd or 4th starters on their team, even though Hughes started off as a #5. However, Lackey made $16.5 mil and Hughes made $400k. Don’t you have to add the context of salary to determine how good a pitcher was in the slot he pitched in? If Boston wanted that kind of performance from a 3rd or 4th guy couldn’t that have been gotten a lot cheaper? Same can be said about AJ and the Yanks.
Dude i’m pretty sure that hes a good gm. If you look at the numbers the teams he puts togheather are pretty damn good. you cna’t argue with it. Go be a troll somewhere else.
Part of me says this is smart, while part of me says this is a bad business move. I think it’s a good PR move toward the fans, as Papi is extremely popular and a link to both WS titles. I also like that it’s only 1 year. That said, I think the salary is very high for a DH, let alone one whose inevitable decline is likely already in progress. I gotta think that if you’re strictly thinking business-wise, you decline the option and try to bring him back on a 1 year deal, and then go year-to-year if he remains the best option at DH. Let’s face facts, there’s not a lot of open places for strict DHs to land each offseason, so it’d still be in Papi’s best interest to go year-to-year with the Sox.
Then again, all this strictly business thinking aside, I’m one of those Yankee idiots who’s secretly hoping “WE GOTTA SIGN JEET-AH AT ANY COST!!!”…so take what I say with a grain of salt.
The thing is with their big payroll they can easily afford his option. They still have plenty of money to spend and I’m sure they didn’t want the nagotiations to drag out and be bitter.
Youkilis is the only MOO bat under control so they had to make the move, even if it is an overpay.
Interesting. Even if he duplicates last year’s performance they’re still just getting about market value from him. Especially with all the alternatives there are this year.
This does allow them to possibly get a head start on going after Werth or Crawford than it would have if they had gone after another DH.
Not a bad move.
I disagree 100%. The Red Sox outfield is attrocious. They needed to make Werth or Crawford priority #1 before anything, especially with an extra $12.5mm sitting around which they no longer have.
Ummm…they can’t even approach Werth OR Crawford yet without violating CBA rules.
Attrocious? really? I mean it’s not great but dude there are a lot worse out fields out there. I think your just bitter about ells stealing home on pettite.
Well it was atrocious when 2/3 of said outfield missed 258 games between them due to season ending injuries. OF of Nava, Hermida, Eric Patterson and Bill Hall. Yeah, that’s atrocious for sure. A healthy Ellsbury and Cameron, with Crawford or Werth, throw in Ryan Kalish and Sox will be fine.
It would’ve been really smart of the Sox to just let Papi go. I understand why they picked it up from a PR standpoint, but it honestly won’t make the team any better. Vladi would’ve been just as capable at half the price. Let’s just hope that they don’t extend Ortiz past 2011.
I’d rather they overpay for one year rather them give him 2 or more years. The Sox are one of the teams that can afford a move like this. Yes this would be a financial risk for many other teams. But Boston is not one of them. I don’t believe the Sox want him for 2 years, even if it’s at a less AAV. This is them saying to Ortiz, we are ver paying for you this season, you better just shut up and like it because it’s better then anything your going to get anywhere else. But they may very well have done this to add more negotiating time. They could say take the one year 12.5M, or take 2 years 8-9M per. Your choice.
I don’t believe this move rules out Dunn either. He could play 1B for 1 season and then move to DH in 2012.
As far as Theo “shooting his load to early”, why don’t you slow down on the hand rpm’s yourself. The Sox have a tricky off season, and this was a move that could be solved quickly and allow them to concentrate their time an effort elsewhere.
With Lowell, Lugo and Varitek all coming off the books, this was a no-brainer. Yes, it’s an overpay, but it doesn’t handcuff them by any stretch of the imagination. He can’t hit lefties, but he was still fifteenth in the MLB in OPS (Which makes him the best OPS of any DH) and that’s with his abysmal April.
For all the whining, there wasn’t much better for options out there. Vlad had a pretty awful second half and isn’t getting any younger either and Dunn has said like eight thousand times now he doesn’t want to DH and he WILL get an offer for a position somewhere.
Not a great move, not a bad move, just a move that was kind of a no-brainer when you get down to it. There’s still time to restructure, but like it or not, the Sox need a DH next year and Ortiz was the best option. If he shows up in shape and produces, great, if not? Well, $12.5 MM isn’t that much to write off for a team like the Sox when they’ve got as much money coming off as they do.
Gives them a solid bat with Beltre in limbo behind Youkillis and still work with him on some 2 year deal for less average per season, regardless of how he feels toward having the option exercised.
Something this does maybe show is that progress may not be going very well towards that 2 year deal and the dollar amount. Would be shocked if Epstein is offering anywhere near 8-9M per season avg over a 2 year period and that is why the option was picked up.
He’s going to be overpaid, but I’m sure Epstein and co. knew that when they exercised his option.
There’s hidden value in the move, and I suspect that’s why it was made. As someone mentioned earlier, this allows them to cross one potential hole off their list and focus on other needs. Second, it gives them flexibility for next season, as it’s just a one year deal. Third, he’s a known commodity. Sure, there’s always the chance he breaks down. But if they went out and signed Dunn, is there not the chance he turns into AL Pat Burrell with a 3 or 4 year commitment?
It’s an overpay, but I can see where they’re coming from.
He led the team in RBIS and Homers. How is he not worth this money? So he is the designated hitter, so what? It’s not mine or your money.
I look at the Ortiz situation as I would last years signing of Nick Johnson. Is it a risk. Sure. Is it going to hurt either team? No because it’s a 1 year deal and it will not prevent either team from spening to make other improvements.
***NO I AM NOT COMPARING THE PERFORMANCE/VALUE OF ORTIZ TO THAT OF JOHNSON.
The reason Johnson got the 1 yr deal is so he could prove he could stay healthy. Same as when the Sox signed Penny. Ortiz has been putting up steady numbers throughout his career. I know you are not comparing performance or value but they are two totally different situations.
Not really. Forget about what makes either Johnson or Ortiz risky. Fact of the matter is Yanks wanted to go year to year w/ Johnson in case he got hurt. Theo wants to go on a one year deal (at least for now) because 1 year ago Ortiz had one of his worst years and in 2010 he struggled vs lefties and he got off to a slow start in 2010. A lot of things get magnified when an older player is involved and that’s the situation that Ortiz is in. He has to prove his value beyond 2011.
It’s all about limiting your risks w/ regards to risky players, regardless of what that risk is (age/health/regression/etc).
Big Papi claims to be “one of the best hitters in the game”, so it shouldn’t be a problem to show it and come back next year with the upper hand in negotiations.
The Red Sox made the right move this year.
I don’t know about any of you Sox fans out there, but I’d be heartbroken to see Big Papi in anyone elses uniform next year! He’s just done too many great things for the team and us as fans over the years. A one year option and a few extra mil more than some people might think he deserves is called loyalty and respect his team: the Boston Red Sox. This was a good move!
Now we just need Adrian Gonzalez and Carl Crawford…I need a team to believe in again!