Giants catcher Buster Posey took home the National League Rookie of the Year award today, while Rangers closer Neftali Feliz won it in the AL.
After Posey, Jason Heyward, Jaime Garcia, Gaby Sanchez, Neil Walker, Starlin Castro, Ike Davis, Jose Tabata, and Jonny Venters received votes in the NL. After Feliz it was Austin Jackson, Danny Valencia, Wade Davis, John Jaso, Brennan Boesch, and Brian Matusz in the AL. Click here to see the full voting results.
well deserved for both guys. and way to top of the season for posey.
Jackson was robbed, I don’t care what anyone says.
69.1 innings. He’s a damn relief pitcher. I don’t get it. Why do people place so much value on saves? If he was a middle reliever with 69.1 innings no one would even know his name.
Well, two things:
There’s a reason he’s not a middle reliever… because he’s awesome.
And yes, they still would know his name because he was one of the biggest prospects in the league…
He was a prospect as a starting pitcher. As a reliever? Meh. Too much emphasis is placed on the role of closer. Toss any solid middle reliever into the role and they should do the job passably well. Relievers are just too fungible to be of any real worth.
Closers deserve all that attention. If you haven’t seen, Lincecum and Oswalt both struggled in 9th inning situations. Closers get that title because they are able to withstand the last inning pressure situations and work through it. A lot of other relievers would just fall apart in those situations. Hence, they get paid so much… Rivera, Papelbon, KRod… you get the point? For Feliz to come in as a rookie and be able to withstand all the pressure of the 9th, and be one of the most dominant at it, that’s pretty damn impressive. As a Giants fan, I’m glad Ron Washington didn’t trust Feliz in the World Series. Some of the games could have turned out differently…
How? Closers are just used to maintain the lead, unlike a starter or everyday player. I’d take an everyday player like Jackson any day over a reliever. Feliz shouldn’t even be in the bullpen, he’s got ace potential. Maybe if Feliz started game 4 instead of Tommy Hunter, things could have turned out differently.
Feliz to start a game in the World Series after no starting experience over the season is just absurd. If I can recall correctly, it was game 2 when the Giants had a 7 run 8th inning, killing the chances of any sort of comeback for the Rangers. Maybe if Ron Washington had used him in the beginning of the 8th or at least before all those runs scored, the Ranger’s might have tried a little harder in the 9th inning to make a comeback. But down 0-9, I think they just wanted to go home and sleep it off.
And that my friend… gave the Giants a 2-0 lead in the WS. Momentum? Giants. Winner? Giants.
Obviously, I meant to begin the season in the rotation.
Lincecum and Oswalt struggled because they’re starting pitchers who were thrust into relief roles. Whenever either of them are on on a given night, they would not struggle going back out to the mound to finish up a CG.
Exactly. I’m pointing out that not everyone can be just thown into the closer’s role. Teams pay millions to closers. It’s not an easy job.
And I’m arguing that Lincecum and Oswalt aren’t good examples because they’re not relief pitchers so no manager under normal circumstances would consider using them to close out a game anyway.
And I’m arguing that Lincecum and Oswalt aren’t good examples because they’re not relief pitchers so no manager under normal circumstances would consider using them to close out a game anyway.
– an average offensive player with plus fielding
– a closer who got a rookie record 40 saves and had a 0.88 WHIP
Out of the Centerfielders with enough plate appearances (27 of them) Jackson Ranked:
20th in OPS
13th in Stolen Bases
23rd in Strikeout Rates (#1 being the best/lowest, #27, being the worst/highest)
19th in Walk Rates (#1 being best/highest, #27 being worst/lowest)
I’ll admit that he is easily an above average fielder, and that K-Rates aren’t overly important, especially when looking at just how much he helped the team (as opposed to offensive immaturity, or in some cases bad things to come) and also that Walk Rates already factor into OPS, so that was somewhat repetitive…
His UZR was only 5.4. He was a good fielder, but don’t let the Jackson crowd fool you into thinking he was dominant.
I agree, I’m just trying to argue the otherside as well before they jump down my throat.
UZR isn’t at all conclusive. It is a flawed stat in a realm where not many exist. Jackson was/is a spectacular fielder. Also, Posey caught only 75 games. Heyward had 114 more at bats with equivalent slash lines. Therefore he was easily more valuable.
This really wasn’t that close. BBWAA was wrong.
UZR isn’t perfect, but it’s the best fielding metric we have. And it says Jackson isn’t spectacular. Forgive me if I’m inclined to believe he’s probably, as the metric indicates, good but not stellar in the field.
And this isn’t Rookie MVP. This is “given to the top rookie in baseball”. Writer’s are free to interpret that however they want. I can imagine some pick the guy who was the most dazzling, some the guy who was the most fun to watch, some the guy who made the biggest difference to his team, and some the guy who has the most promise going forward – or better yet, a combination of all those factors.
You should start using it right then. It takes a few years to get a good picture of what kind a fielder a player is.
UZR is not the best metric. It is highly unreliable in anything less than a 3 year sample size and even then is probably not as good as PM, which had Jackson at 21 DRS, which is spectacular. Also, RZR had him at .929 (2nd) and 109 OOZ plays (first by 10). The fact that UZR had Julio Bourbon so high, while the others had him as merely above average says a ton. Jackson is a spectacular fielder.
Posey is a catcher.
Heyward is a corner outfielder.
Posey wins.
I liked this, but Heyward did play a full season, while Posey did not (not Posey’s fault by any means). He also put up a Pujos-esque OBP in his first year in the majors, which is ridiculous. I would still give it to Posey, but not by much.
So, since they had roughly equivalent offensive numbers, the fact that Posey spent about half a season behind the plate at a premium defensive position doesn’t give him a significant advantage? Not to mention he caught the best pitching staff in the majors and they pitched better to him than they had pitched before he became the full time catcher.
The real issue here is the japanese writer leaving Posey off the ballot completely and Kovacevic doing the same with Heyward. Indefensible…
Average rookie season now?
181 Hits
34 Doubles
10 Triples
Why do I care how many doubles or triples he had? Total Bases, Slugging, Isolated Power, OPS, or even better, wOBA, take those things into account, and all say the same thing: not that great.
The arguement isn’t Austin Jackson for MVP. It’s Austin Jackson for “Rookie of the Year” that means that you compare what he did vs what OTHER AL ROOKIES DID. When you do that then AJ is easily a top candidate for the award. Now wheter or not he wins is a matter of what you value more, a closer or other candidates. But frame the question properly.
I’m just trying to establish that he is only a slightly above average player, while Feliz is clearly an above average player.
I don’t have a problem w/ your conclusion that Feliz deserved the ROY over AJ. I have a problem w/ you evaluating AJ as a “slightly above average player” vs comparing AJ to the rest of the ROY candidates. Too often we seem to vote for the rookie who had the most minor lge “prestige” or the most mlb promise rather than simply who performed better in their rookie year.
I am comparing Jackson to other players.
I am comparing Feliz to the other players.
therefore, If there was a list of the best players in order, Feliz would be higher. That’s why I think he deserves Rookie of the Year.
Whether I’m saying he’s a better player or a better rookie, either way I’m saying he’s better.
Um, you are wrong. Given that both PM and RZR have Jackson as basically a 2 win defender, I will take that over UZR’s half win, especially with a single year sample. That means Jackson was worth nearly 5.5 wins. Feliz was a 1.7 win player at a less important position.
Jackson deserved the ROTY more than Feliz and is clearly a far better player than you make him out to be.
The players voted Jackson as ROY. He was robbed.
I disagree. Julio Borbon of the Texas Rangers lost his rookie status with 28 too many at bats in 09. Had he not had those 28 at bats, and been afforded 180 more at bats this year, he could have put up similar numbers to Jackson. Aside from this hypothetical, Neftali Feliz not only did his job, but did it well. Were any of Jackson’s stats a rookie record? Well, he was 15 shy of tying the rookie record for strike outs.
Bottom line is that Feliz deserved this more than Jackson.
1) No, Feliz didn’t come close to what Jackson did as far as value to his team. I value a closer more than most SABR types, but call a spade a spade. Jackson was a premium CFer this year.
2) Bourbon? Really? He is a solid defender, albeit with a weak arm, but his bat was absolutely horrible.
For once, the most deserving players won. Congrats to both men.
I didnt expect Starlin Castro to win but only 3 third place votes feels like a snub.
His glove snubbed him. I expect his defense to improve. He has above average range, he just need to learn not to rush. He is too quick for his own good sometimes.
“Oh but I thought it was all about a SS range”?
-DJ
i pretty much want to break something right now. Congrats to Jonny V though on getting votes, I figured he had fallen off of the table. Oh well, Freddie Freeman and Craig Kimbrel can do it for the Braves next year!!!
I was watching sportscenter when this was announced and they didnt even say Neftali Feliz’s name, apparently he’s just “the texas ranger’s closer”
And Neftali Feliz is such a cool name too!
The writers got this right. Congrats to both guys.
Ok, the BBWAA are a bunch of idiots!!! Posey may have had the better year but he didnt deserve ELEVEN MORE VOTES than Heyward and AJax should have been closer as well.
Get a grip. Obviously you’re a homer. Posey as a rookie took over for an established vet like Molina and retained the respect and confidence of a winnng pitching staff at mid season. Not to dump on Heyward, but his impact is not even close.
Jackson had a great year, but aside from individual stats, he made no real impact for the Tigers as a team.
This is Rookie of the Year, not MVP or Cy Young. Where your team finishes in the standings should have no impact on how the voting went unless you were the one responsible for the improvement. You can maybe make that argument for Posey over Heyward, although both teams made the playoffs & both contributed. Feliz did contribute to Texas winning the division but as a reliever with only 69 innings pitched I think his overall contribution was less than Jackson’s. I do think that if Texas makes a starter out of Feliz he will wind up having a better career than Jackson however.
Read what I posted to Cody Abbott
Posey got almost half of his starts (30/83) this year at 1B. Who’s a homer again?
Are you serious? You don’t think that the Giants overall finish had anything to do with Buster Posey’s play? Whether as a catcher or at 1B? Did you watch any Giants games during the regular season or only look at numbers? Heyward had a great year and the Braves would not have had as good a record without him, but the Giants don’t make the playoffs, let alone win the WS without Posey. And yes, the writers take that into account.
As for Feliz, he was the final chip in the Texas pitching staff, their bullpen has been simply atrocious forever, look at their history and you’ll see that he saved games throughout the year that Texas used to blow continuously in past years.
BTW I’m a Yankees fan and have no problem giving credit where it’s due.
I’m just pointing out how “he came in and immediately gained the respect of a pitching staff” isn’t as salient a point as some would like to make it out to be, because he didn’t. He came up and played 1B and then took over after the old guy got traded.Although I disagree with the notion that the ROY award should be treated as an MVP for rookies. But if you wanted to, then you could look at their WARs and see that Heyward is at a 5.0 and Posey is at 3.9. The Giants don’t get to the playoffs without Posey, but the Braves would have been eevn farther removed from the playoffs without Heyward, so I don’t see how that should make any difference in this particular case anyway.
Posey was a catcher in the minors and the only reason he played first was not because Molina was there but also to preserve Posey’s legs. Rookies tend to tire out faster than players who’ve been around for a few years (look at heyward). The Giants used Posey well.
Posey missed 2 months and only had 1.1 wins less? That sounds very good.
Just so you know, Playoffs have nobearing on votes. They are turned in before the Playoffs start. It was based strictly on the Season, unfortunatley Heyward was there from day one and got ripped off by Posey who was called up later, Better Athlete=JHEY!
I know that, as I noted on my post to Cody Abbott. You have to give credit where it’s due. Posey took over a MLB postion that’s much more complicated and difficult a position in mid-stream without a hitch. You can’t really compare a catcher’s duties and responsibilites with an outfielder. What they do doesn’t always show up in numbers and that’s what the BBWAA took into consideration when they voted him over everyone else. The fact that he was called up in mid season shouldn’t detract from what he did on the field.
I love the Giants but I would have been fine with either guy winning. They’re both great players. Besides, if Posey had played the whole year, they probably would have had even closer seasons.
God damn it. Heyward deserved the award. I’m surprised Posey didnt take the Silver Slugger from McCann too. Don’t get me wrong, I’m from the same city as Buster and I watched him and Heyward duke it out in the state playoffs in 05, but the guy who has 40% more at bats and battled injuries still gets it for me.
That 40% more AB’s cuts both ways. If Posey hadn’t been deprived Super-Two by Sabian, he’d have 30 HR and 100+ RBI. Then Heyward wouldn’t have even pulled 5 1st place votes.
Put Heyward in the cleanup spot like they did Posey and tell me he couldn’t do the same. Heyward was shoved into the 2 hole because of his OBP, and Bobby Cox ruined him swinging for the fences by making him take every pitch he saw so he could be on base. Even then, he didn’t let him steal. He had 11 SB, he’s easily a 20 SB guy.
There’s alot of “if’s” that we can debate all afternoon – I’d prefer not to. I’ll just say that most baseball analysts judge pitchers/catchers/everyone else by different standards. A catcher isn’t supposed to have stats similar to a right fielder – and if he does, he’s incredibly valuable.
Well said. To put it in further perspective..
Catchers who hit 18 hrs and had an OBP above .350- McCann, Martinez, Posada and Posey.
RF who hit 18 hrs and had an OBP above .350-Abreu, Bruce, Swisher, Rasmus, Either, Cruz, Werth, Heyward, Hamilton, Bautista.
Posey’s position is a lot more difficult to find that kind of offense and then when you value the defensive responsibilities for a C vs a RF then the weight of his value is even higher.
Well, you leave out that Heyward had an OBP of .393, which is elite as opposed to above average and was tops in the NL among RFers and second in all of baseball (behind Choo).
not true. Bobby even went to the media saying that Heyward was way too patient at the plate. They wanted Heyward to be more aggressive
The ROY award isn’t based on future potential it’s based on how they did this year.
Clearly, he didn’t. If the Braves made it to the WS though, it would have been the other way around.
Votes were taken before the playoffs began.
The votes are in before the post season even begins. then again, the Giants impressive finish does push Posey more into the spotlight.
Brandon ROY is not award for what a player does in STATE PLAYOFFs in 05′ Com’on man! To catch for that staff and make it look easy, along with the offensive numbers he put up this these he deserves the award.
Please insert face into palm.
Posey vs Heyward
AB- 406 vs 520
Bat Avg- .300 vs .277
OBP – .357 vs .393
HR- 18 vs 18
HR:AB- 1:23 vs 1:29
OPS+ – 129 vs 131
Factor in that Posey did as a C and w/ fewer mlb AB and he deserved the award over Heyward. Doesn’t mean he will be the better PLAYER long term but definetly had the better first year.
WAR factors all that in and Heyward was worth over a win more than Posey. He did not “definetly” have a better year.
Heyward played 142 games and a 5.0 WAR, which is 1 win every 28.4 games
Posey played 108 games and a 3.9 WAR, which is 1 win every 27.6 games
If each played 162 games with their current WAR rate
Heyward- 5.70 WAR
Posey- 5.85 WAR
Why should Posey get credit for games he didn’t play? That is just a ridiculous argument. He could have also been terrible in those extra games (much like Heyward during a stretch).
Why do you think I put it based on average and not total.What’s next you’re going to tell me, a player who has 200 hits in 600 at bats hit better than a guy with 190 hits in 550 at bats? It’s called a better average. And Posey’s WAR rate was better than Heyward’s.Basically yeah, Heyward played over a month more than Posey. But don’t forget, Mauer missed a month last year and got MVP, and Hamilton missed a month this year and could get MVP. It’s no different than this.
You’re arguing a hypothetical. Hamilton missed a month and still produced more value than anyone. Posey missed a month and did not produce more value than Heyward.
As I proven, based on the amount that each played, Posey’s value rate is more higher than Heywards.As I said, you’re acting as if the top number is the best number, ex. 20 Homers is better than 19 homers, when you’re completely missing the most important things which is a rate done at.5.0 > 3.9But 3.9 in 108 games > 5.0 in 142 games
Frankly I think both were deserving of it though.
I completely understand what you are saying. However I fail to see the relevance of rate for an award that is based on total value. If you take away Heyward’s worst month his rate is much better than Posey’s. In your scenario he is being punished for playing a full season, which contradicts the nature of the award. I agree, both were deserving, but I feel Heyward provided more value.
Well unfortunately that’s something you can’t do is take away this or add that.
Heyward is not a bad choice, Posey is not a bad choice. Feliz is not a bad choice, Jackson is not a bad choice.
I’m not a huge fan of WAR but I was just responding to those saying Heyward was better because he had a higher WAR.
I mean so many people are going to say they think Cabrera should be MVP. He was 7th in WAR in the AL alone. Even Adrian Beltre had a higher WAR (2nd highest to Hamilton).
Agan I was just respondin to those who use WAR.
I just think WAR puts way too much factor in defense. Which is what makes Beltre 2nd since he plays 3B, but that doesn’t mean he is the 2nd most valuable player (at least in my mind)
Posey missed the first TWO months, actually, and produced numbers that are comparable to Heyward. Posey produced in 4 months what it took Heyward to produce in 6 months. Give credit where credit is due.
No one is saying Heyward is not going to be a phenomenal player. He is very young and very, very good. But to bellyache over Heyward losing ROY to Posey? Really, get over yourselves.
It’s just an argument dude. I have no idea why you would even come into a post like this if you are so sensitive to people disagreeing with others. I never said Posey sucks. He is a great young player. It is not true that Posey produced what Heyward did. As I pointed out in another comment, Heyward got on base nearly 100 times more than Posey.
Heyward got on base about 90 more x because he had 180 more opoortunities. The difference between Posey having a .393 OBP vs the .357 he posted is as simple as 5 HBP, 5 3 and 2 counts that go his way next time and 5 squiblers that get past the SS.
Not entirely ridiculous if you put worth in rate stats such as OBP, SLG, OPS, etc. which routinely make players who were really hot and then got injured before they could fall back to earth look better. I think of these stats as measures of theoretical value–they indicate how valuable players would be compared to each other if they played the same amount, whereas homers, hits, walks, etc. represent actual value. Both kinds of statistics have some merit, which is why its silly that the sabermetric crowd seems to worship rate stats while writers/fans often revere raw numbers. Both should be considered important.
Why should Posey be penalized for his team robbing him of a year of service time?
Why should Posey be penalized for his team robbing him of a year of service time?
I could careless about WAR. The arguement is who had the better year. IMO, getting practically the same offensive production from a C as you do from a RF makes the C a little more valuable. Aside from OBP Posey was just as good as Heyward AND he had FAR MORE defensive responsibilities as Heyward.
Undisputable facts:
A catcher has to handle the pitching staff (5 starters and 5 relief pitchers). He has to attempt to throwout SB threats. He has to not only avoid making his own mistakes (Passed balls) but also has to try and limit or negate mistakes by others (preventing wild pitches and backing up 1B on throws). He also has to block the plate on plays at home and deal with the wear and tear of C 150-200 pitches a game. Posey has to do all that and still manage to hit as many HRS as Heyward in fewer at bats and post a .300+/.350+ line.
I don’t think you quite understand what you are talking about. First of all, it wasn’t anywhere near the same offensive production. Heyward provided far more offense by getting on base much more than Posey. Secondly, all of what you said about Posey having to do as a catcher is factored in. Posey is measured against other catchers. Heyward is measured against other RFers. They were basically even in terms of per game value but Heyward was more valuable because of how many games he played.
You can’t say things like “aside from OBP.” That is probably the most important stat.
The most important stat is winning games. I get what you’re saying in thinking Heyward should have won. I respect that. But looking at the bigger picture, towards the end of the season, everyone heard about the red hot Giants and Buster Posey. Heyward was actually kind of streaky. OBP is great but every other stat, including the most important.. winning games.. I think Posey wins… That’s what I think. Not telling you what to think.
Get WAR out your head for a second because that really has no value in ANY real life evaluative process.
A C who give you 20 hrs, a .360 OBP and plays good defense is a lot more rare than a RF who gives you 25 hrs, a .375 OBP and plays good defense. Why? Simply because C is a position where defense is a lot more important than offense and when you can find both (offense and defense) at that position then it’s a HUGE commodity.
Do you know the difference between Posey posting a .357 OBP and posting the same as Heyward’s .393? 5 hit by pitches, 5 3-2 count that went the other way and 6 squiblers that have eyes and barely make it past the SS glove.
OBP is a great stat but you can’t say that this 1 stat makes him clearly the better player.
As for an apples to apples comparison. There was exactly 3 other C that had at least 15 hrs, at least a .340 OBP and at least a .275 bat avg (McCann, Martinez, Soto). There were 6 RF (or can play OF) that had at least 15 + HRS, .375 OBP and .270 bat avg (Cruz, Cargo, Bautista, Werth, Choo, Hamilton) and add Wellingham and Ordonez on if they were healthy. There are simply more RF than can do exactly or close to what Heyward does vs C who can do what Posey does.
“5 hit by pitches, 5 3-2 count that went the other way and 6 squiblers that have eyes and barely make it past the SS glove. ”
I don’t care if Posey or Heyward won the award. I think they were both deserving but that line has to be one of the most absurd things I have ever read. Seriously, if you think it is so easy to get on base 16 more times is so easy why not just tell George Brett how easy it should have been to hit .400 in 1980. After all he only needed 5 more “squiblers”.
I’m not saying how it easy it is to hit .390 I’m showing how simple it could be for the opposite to happen. I don’t get caught up on OBP for 1 year because it’s a thin line between being a “lucky” .390 and being a .357 guy.
Well said. But IMO, I do believe Posey will be better than Heyward in the long run. Buster Posey is already getting future superstar title and being compared to Joe Mauer. Heyward… Jay Bruce?
I don’t understand how the votes are cast. How can a reliever who doesn’t play everyday get more votes than a player that plays almost every day. I am not going to say that Nefi doesn’t deserve recognition but I don’t believe he should have beat Jackson out. I just believe that it’s another strike against the Detroit Tigers in this horrible year of bad calls and voting. Well, lets hope that Miggy wins the MVP.
People really need to get past the whole “but the guy plays everyday!” thing. It’s constantly used to dismiss pitchers and catchers.
Jackson was a solid leadoff man for a .500 team. Feliz was an elite closer for a WS team. Which one do you think is harder to replace?
And yes, Miggy should get MVP. If he doesn’t, I’ll be complaining right alongside you.
TwinsVet, I agree with you to an extent. I guess it does pay off playing for a world series team BUT there should be some consideration in how many games each plays. I am not saying that Feliez wasn’t a great closer for a world series team but you can’t deny that Jackson was a better candidate for the award. That’s like saying the Hamilton should win MVP because he was on a world series team. The post season shouldn’t have any deciding factor on the awards.
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I’d argue Feliz was the better choice because he was an All-Star, and worthy of the selection, while Jackson was not (setting aside, for a moment, the flaws in fan-voting for ASG’s).
Unfortunately, playing for a contender does get you more press and media attention, right or wrong. Unless I’m mistaken, voting for individual awards all takes place prior to the post-season – but there’s no doubt more writers are watching a late-season Texas-Anaheim game instead of a Detroit-Cleveland. And when Feliz gets a save there, people take note. A Jackson 3-for-5 night in Ohio doesn’t turn any heads.
In response to “which is harder to replace,” both Fangraphs and Baseball Reference say Jackson using WAR. There are reasons for this to have been a close vote, but I would’ve gone the other way.
It would be nice if they could divide up the ballot and creat an award for ROY pitcher and ROY position player.
Yeah I agree with that.
That is funny because I was just saying that to a co-worker today after the results came out. It is just too hard to compare a pitcher and a position player against each other.
Aren’t you a fan of WAR? If so, you do realize Miggy was 7th in WAR in the AL don’t you?
WAR can be a useful tool, but it’s not the end-all-be-all of metrics. All the compilation metrics (WAR, UZR, etc) are subject to constant reform and are not perfect. I’d be willing to bet 99% of people on this site couldn’t even recite the formula that goes into WAR off the top of their head.
Miggy gets it because he was an offensive beast in the AL, not because he dominated any single metric.
Lol I admit I’m one of the 99%, although I hope you don’t think that makes me dumb! lolWhen it’s all said and done, there is no Right or Wrong answer. But it would be more proper to say Player A was better or more deserving than Player B. That’s why all winners are usually amongst the top candidates. You’re never going to see a surprise winner, meaning a player who wasn’t mentioned amongst deserving candidates, ex. let’s say as you mention Jayson Heyward, win the MVP.When it comes to MVP voting, I’m more of a fan of giving it to players on playoff teams first. While it’s true it’s not fair that players like Miggy and Bautista were on bad teams, you can’t say it’s unfair that Hamilton, Cano, etc. were on good teams/playoff teams also.While I don’t think MIggy is a bad choice, I’d go with a player on a playoff team/contender first. Is it right or wrong? No, because there is no right or wrong. It’s all a matter of opinoin on who’s the MVP. Now when it comes to saying who is the better hitter, the better pitcher, etc. then those can be proven with stats. As you first said, WAR can be useufl but it’s not always perfect to use.My top 10 AL MVP candidates in order1- Hamilton2- Cano3- Crawford4- Miggy5- Bautista6- Longoria7- Beltre8- Lee9- Price10- SabathiaI’m not a fan of giving pitcher MVP’s amongst the top of the list unless there is no great offensive player, something that hasn’t happened in about 25-30 years and probably won’t happen againYou may disagree with my list (Heck I just thought of it in 5-10 minutes so mine could even change if I thought harder), but I’m not right or wrong, likewise for you or anyone else.
Good list. However I think Cano takes it over Hamilton because he is at 2B. And Miggy over Crawford just because you can’t ignore his monster offense even on a sad sad team.
Oh I put Lee as the most valuable pitcher, however that don’t mean I think he was the best pitcher. The best pitcher, at least in my mind, was King Felix and he deserves the Cy Young, which is given to the best overall pitcher, unlike the MVP which is given to the most valuable pitcher. I think King Felix was the best pitcher, but I don’t think he was the most valuable pitcher. There’s a difference between the 2
I’m not seeing the difference between “most valuable” and “best”.
Unfortunately, the Cy seems to go to the winningest pitcher historically. I’m actually okay with that, considering Cy Young himself has the legacy of being the winningest pitcher of all time. But that’s all besides the point what whatever it is you’re trying to say about the difference between “best” and “most valuable…
When I say best, I mean best statistics wise.
MVP is most valuable player, not pitcher.
I know that. Just saying if I had to vote, pitchers wouldn’t get my top vote unless there were flat out no great offensive players, which I don’t think will happen anytime soon.
“Jackson was a solid leadoff man for a .500 team. Feliz was an elite closer for a WS team. Which one do you think is harder to replace?”
Honestly? Jackson. Solid leadoff men are becoming harder and harder to find, and there are an abundance of quality closers any given year. Whether it’s intentional or not, you’re trying to bias the results of peoples’ answers to you by offering a choice between “solid” and “elite;” you’re begging the question.
Feliz had a nice season, and I’m not trying to take anything away from him — but if you look at qualified relievers in 2010, his xFIP just BARELY squeaks him into the Top 50 at #49, behind even a guy like Kyle Farnsworth. Behind Ryan Webb and John Axford and Daniel Bard (all of whom if I am not mistaken should still have been Rookie-eligible), behind Venters, behind a slew of non-rookies. If you flip it to simply ERA instead, he slides up to #37, still behind all of those guys. He ranks highly in saves, but that’s much more a team metric than an individual one. (If your team is getting blown out or blowing them out, you don’t get a save — doesn’t matter how you pitched if you got brought in.) His numbers (in both categories) were even below those of at least two of his teammates, guys who likely would have been given a chance to close were it not given to Feliz instead.
I realize that a lot of these guys aren’t in the AL and even more of the people in front of him aren’t rookies or closers. As I said, I’m not trying to take anything away from his season and I’m not arguing for any particular winner for the actual ROY award. I’m simply saying that his “elite” status isn’t quite so cut and dried as you make it out to be, and that there are probably 48 other guys who could have stepped in and performed similarly were they given the chance. If others are supposed to get over “but he plays every day!” then you should have to get over “but he didn’t happen to be the closer!”
Feliz did well and he’s not UNDESERVING — but there could easily have been better candidates.
Heyward lost because of the pre-season hype, making Posey the trendy pick. Other than that, Heyward’s .393 OBP (while 3 years younger) probably wins it for him.
Hard to believe 5 WAR as a rookie qualifies as not living up to the hype, but it is probably true.
Should’ve been Jackson and Heyward. It’s close, but not really that close. BBWAA fails again.
Really? I honestly can’t see a way to justify giving the award to Heyward over Posey. Posey’s impact was much larger- superb defense and pitching management at a much higher premium defensive position, plus his offensive numbers were just as good as Heyward in about 2/3 the ABs
There are a LOT of ways to justify why Heyward should have been selected over Posey:
1) He played the ENTIRE season as opposed to just 2/3 of a season. Playing in more games gives the pitchers MORE time to adjust. Heyward adjusted each time the pitchers adjusted to him. Let’s see how they both do next over the course of a full season.
2) Heyward had one of the highest OBPs for any rookie in major league history.
3) Heyward was an all-star
4) Heyward was ranked as one of the top defensive right fielders in the game. Saying that Posey deserves “extra credit” because he played catcher is bogus. If that is true then he needs to get points deducted for all of the games he played at 1B, the easiest position to play.
5) Heyward’s stats were less than what they should have been due to the fact that he played the last 1/3 of the season with a badly injured thumb
6) Heyward practically carried the Braves offensively during the first third of the season. He had NO hitters protecting him in the lineup.
7) and finally, Heyward was 20 YEARS OLD last year and only 2 years removed from playing in high school and he LED his team to the playoffs for the first time in five years
While you may agree with Posey winning the award, there are just as many arguments to say that Heyward should have won it.
I never saw anyobody say Heyward was a top defensive RF. Def not a liability, but he is not at the top. All these factors are just bad luck. His age? Cmon, if thats a factor then its just silly. Injuries happen, when they unfortunately do, they hurt your stats and stock for awards. The giants were in 4th place when posey was called up and they obviously finished strong, I remember the braves going on a winning streak when heyward was on the DL for those couple weeks back during the summer. The more deserving guy won, as evidence by the fact it wasn’t even close
I guess you Posey homers failed to understand my post. You originally said that you could not think of any reason to justify that Heyward should have won the award. I was responding to that post by showing that there are also many arguments as to why Heyward could have won the award.
Also, as for Heyward’s defense:
For right fielders, Heyward ranked first in Dewan’s +/- for a majority of the season, but he ended up finishing second behind Jay Bruce with a +23 mark — Bruce was +24. In terms of UZR/150, Heyward ranked fourth in the majors behind Bruce, Ichiro, and Justin Upton, making him the third best right fielder in regards to that metric. The Fielding Bible also rated Heyward as the 3rd best RF in the majors last year.
1) Playing the entire season (in this case, means 142 games for Heyward) also gives Heyward more opportunites (34 games, 114 ABs) to hit for more HRs and RBIs compared to Posey (18 HRs each, a difference of 5 RBIs between the two). I know these two stats are not the only stats the writers look at, but I’m using the same logic you are when you state that the more playing time gives pitchers more time to adjust.
2) True, Heyward led all rookies in OBP with .393 (one of the highest in in history, just as you said). Posey also had a high OBP with .357 — a difference of 36 points. But you can make the same argument when you compare their averages, .305 for Posey and .277 for Heyward (difference of 28 points). However, you have to take into consideration the differences are due to their place in their respective lineups. Heyward was in the 2 hole for most of the year — he was a table setter, get the guy over from first and get yourself on base by any means necessary. Posey, on the other hand batted cleanup (albiet not for the entire time he was up, but a large portion) and his job was to swing away to drive in those tablesetters (i.e. Heyward). My point being, if you want to say “but Heyward’s OBP was better!” you also have to say “but Posey’s AVG was better!”
3) MLB All-Star selections are a joke. All it is is a popularity contest for the position players. At least the pitchers get selected based on their achievements (or at least that is how it is constructed).
4) Saying that he should get points deducted due to playing 1B is the boogus line here. There is a running joke here in SF that whenever Posey had a day off, he played 1B. Usually when players have a day off, they HAVE A DAY OFF.
5) Posey’s stats were less than what they should have been due to the fact that he didnt play in the majors the first 1/3 of the season.
6) When Posey was called up to the Giants at the end of May, the team record was 41-40. Now I’m not saying he turned it around all by himself (Burrell, etc.), but a 21 game hit streak will do wonders for a team. Also, by saying he had no hitters to protect him in the lineup you are doing a disservice to your All-Star Silver Slugging catcher. Don’t do that … McCann is AWESOME.
7) Posey was the Golden Spikes Award winner at Florida State (given to the TOP college baseball player). Oh .. and he LED his team to the playoffs (1st time in 7 years) and to a WS Championship (1st time since 1954)
While you may agree that Heyward should have won the award, there are just as many arguments to say that Posey should have and DID when the award.
Sorry … i just HAD to defend my boy.
i agree.
You missed my point. As I said, I was replying to another post saying that there were no reasons to justify giving Heyward the award. My point is there are plenty of arguments as to why he could have won it. These two players were very, very close. Either could have won the award and either would have had many reasons as to why they should have won it.
1) He played the ENTIRE season as opposed to just 2/3 of a season. Playing in more games gives the pitchers MORE time to adjust. Heyward adjusted each time the pitchers adjusted to him. Let’s see how they both do next over the course of a full season.
– It’s not Posey’s fault when he was called up. Heywards 1 constant was his ability to draw a walk. As the season progressed his numbers did too, although not dramatically IMO. He only hit 8 hrs from June 1st to end of the season. He posted a great OBP but most of power numbers were from a monstrous April/May (10/18 hrs, 38/72 RBI). As for futre performance, this award doesn’t go to the player they feel will be the better all around player and is limited solely to how they produced and their defensive importants.
2) Heyward had one of the highest OBPs for any rookie in major league history.
-Great feather in his cap but 18 hrs and a .357 OBP from a rookie C is pretty rare as well.
3) Heyward was an all-star
-Voted by the fans and is meanigless to the discussion.
4) Heyward was ranked as one of the top defensive right fielders in the game. Saying that Posey deserves “extra credit” because he played catcher is bogus. If that is true then he needs to get points deducted for all of the games he played at 1B, the easiest position to play.
-Posey played 75% of his games as a C. He threw out 37% of 62 would be SB attempts. That 37% was better than McCann @ 30%, Gerald Laird @ 34%, Joe Mauer @ 26% and just about every other C except for Yadier Molina @ 49%.
5) Heyward’s stats were less than what they should have been due to the fact that he played the last 1/3 of the season with a badly injured thumb
– No one is asking for excuses as to why he didn’t do as much. No one is saying Heyward won’t have a better career (debatable). All they are saying is that Posey had a better year.
6) Heyward practically carried the Braves offensively during the first third of the season. He had NO hitters protecting him in the lineup.
-Considering how weak the Giants were offensively I would say that he probably got about the same if not less offensive support that Heyward received.
7) and finally, Heyward was 20 YEARS OLD last year and only 2 years removed from playing in high school and he LED his team to the playoffs for the first time in five years
-Age is irrelevant. Again, it’s based on who did what in 2010. If a guy is a rookie at age 28 but has a great season as a rooki after 9 years in the minors does that make him less worthy for ROY? And as for team accomplishments, Posey led the Giants to the playoffs for the 1st time in 6 years (since 2003).
no votes for axford’s stache? the fix is in
I can’t really argue this year, I like both choices.
It’s amazing how much deeper the NL rookie class was. Ike Davis finishes 7th in the NL. His AL counterpart? John Jaso.
People can cry over Heyward all day long, but the bottom line is Posey turned a .500 team into a WS champion, and he did it from the catching position. Just like Mauer’s MVP had some “positional factor” played into it, so did Posey’s award. You just don’t see many catchers come up and make the kind of impact he did. The kid deserved it. It’s hardly an insult to Heyward, he’ll have plenty of Silver Sluggers and All-Star appearances before his career is over.
I’m actually surprise Garcia didn’t garner a few more votes.
actually, Jaso was 5th. Matusz was 7th. and both had good rookie years. remember that ike fell off at the end of the year. must have taken too many tumbles into the dugout going for foul balls.
Both Jaso and Matusz had 3 points (Jaso 1 2nd place vote, Matusz 3 3rd place votes). I’m not sure if there’s a “tie breaker” based on higher votes, but they essentially tied.
If Jaso finished higher in the standings, that just speaks more to the point that guys like Castro and Davis finished equivalent to Boesch and Jaso – and I don’t think many people would say those guys would match up head-to-head.
Ike Davis September:330/427/524 man he really fell off late
Didn’t realize the Giants were running with a 1 man team. If that is the case, then Posey deserves it for single-handedly, with no help at all from an incredible pitching staff or several breakout years from other hitters around him, turning the Giants season around.
Nope. Giants had Pat Burrell, Aubrey Huff, Juan Uribe, etc. With the arrival of Posey, the Giants won the NL West from a mediocre .500 team at 4th place. Sure the pitching staff was great, but the catcher’s ability to call a game is just as important. Don’t be so naive.
Yeah if anyone got screwed it was Garcia. A lefty w/ a 2.70/1.32 line in 163 IP as a rookie get’s one 1st place and one 2nd place vote? Robbed.
And Heyward’s still hearing the chants at AT&T Park, “POSEY’s BETTER!!!!”
we’ll see what happens in the future…don’t get ahead of yourself
Who’s getting ahead of themselves? Our fans were saying that this year, Posey is better. Then every expert and the voters all agreed with us. Get over it, Heyward is still a star in the making but he did not deserve this award.
I was in Atlanta and Braves fans did the same exact thing but “Heyward Better!!” when Posey stepped up to the batters box. It was probally one of the funniest moments of my life when Posey called time at the plate to quiet them.
Tell me about it. It was also hilarious when Posey celebrated like he hit a walk-off HR in game 7 when his dribbler trickled through the legs of Brooks Conrad.
It was hilarious when Heyward went 2-16 in the division series. It was hilarious when ATL just couldn’t do anything about the Giant’s pitching.
At least Posey had something to celebrate about. He’s a rookie. He’s in the WS. He won the WS. He’s a millionaire in the making. Let the kid celebrate. It’s him celebrating his dream coming true. Don’t tell me you wouldn’t. And funny thing. He doesn’t care if you laugh at him. He’s got a ring.
I’m happy for him. I’m not trying to rain on his parade. I just thought it was funny how he jumped up and down and pointed to the dugout like he hit a walk-off HR or something. I’m assuming you’re a Giants fan, so congrats on the championship. I much prefer the Giants winning it all than the Phillies or Yankees.
And yeah, ATL and Heyward looked pretty pathetic against the Giants’ staff. I didn’t think it was too funny though.
I hate Posey with a burning passion, but damn, he is good.
Also, I hope that Feliz being such a dominant closer doesn’t prevent him from moving to the rotation. Keeping him in the pen would be a bad move.
Dodger fan?
Don’t know why you hate Posey he is pretty quiet and does his business like he’s supposed to.
i hate him because of the letters on the front of his jersey
Exactly. I don’t hate Posey as a person, of course, I don’t know him or know what he’s like. But as a player… ugh. And he absolutely torches my team, the D’backs. He hit .396/.431/.563 against us.
Why do you hate him? because he is a Giant? The guy is extremely humble. He has a good head on his shoulders. He isn’t an “It’s all about me” athlete like Manny Ramirez or Barry Bonds.
Your hatred is really hard to understand.
Wow. Look one comment up from yours. Obviously, I don’t hate him as a person, just a player. I don’t understand why that couldn’t be assumed. It isn’t that difficult.
Why would I hate any player personally, unless they’re publicly jerkish like Manny, Randy Moss, and LeBron? Jeez.
Haha…sorry for my overreaction. I tend not to read past “I hate”. I feel the same way about Stephen Drew (as a player). I think all his HR’s come against us!
It’s okay, I love Stephen Drew just as much as you love Posey! It’s like the way I just wish Carlos Gonzalez, Matt Cain, Ethier, and A-Gon would just disappear… Oh, and if we’re going through other sports too, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Brett Favre, and the entire San Fransisco 49ers team.. except Alex Smith. He can stay.
LMAO. Nice. I’m a Giants fan. I can say just about the opposite as you said. Alex Smith can go find another job.
LMAO. Nice. I’m a Giants fan. I can say just about the opposite as you said. Alex Smith can go find another job.
Can’t really argue with the voting. It was basically a coin toss. The only argument is where those who comes in behind the two top guys(Feliz/Jackson, Posey/Heyward) and how many first place votes everybody got.
I can see Posey, but Jackson was really really good this year. Feliz was good, but he was only a relief pitcher. Last year Bailey was right because there was no clear competitor to him, but I was really impressed with Jackson.
More of this “only a reliever” sentiment? Really?
Neftali had a season worthy of an All-Star selection. He was among the top 5 closers in the AL this year. Austin Jackson, as solid as he was, didn’t belong anywhere near an All-Star game.
Jackson was good. Feliz was great.
Jackson was better than great. Looks at his fielding stats. Day in and day out he put on a clinic for center fielders in a huge park and made impossible catches look like routine fly balls. Felis was good, don’t get me wrong but what Jackson did this year was incredible.
5.4 UZR. The fielding stats are good – not great.
What Jackson did was incredible in the sense that he posted probably the most unsustainable BABIP in the history of time.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d have given it to Jackson too, but his season was good, and only good. It was far from incredible. Danny Valencia was almost worth more in half the time.
As TwinsVet says… his defensive reputation is overblown by the media.
Jackson got hosed. Feliz pitched in 20 games last year…which for a RELIEF PITCHER is nearly half a season.
Feliz’s team went to the playoffs. Jackson’s team floundered in the second half. Simple as that. I’m not saying its right; this award should be the best individual rookie, not the best rookie on a playoff team or even on a good team. Whether the team wins or loses seems to cloud the issue.
You are being naive here. Being on a winning team should make and does make a difference. A player with “great” stats on a losing team is one thing. But a player with great stats contributing to a winning team is a whole new level. Feliz is a CLOSER, not just a RP. Feliz is a rookie. He did what Mariono Rivera and Jonathon Papelbon did. Give him some credit.
You are being naive here. Being on a winning team should make and does make a difference. A player with “great” stats on a losing team is one thing. But a player with great stats contributing to a winning team is a whole new level. Feliz is a CLOSER, not just a RP. Feliz is a rookie. He did what Mariono Rivera and Jonathon Papelbon did. Give him some credit.
A reliever wins for the second year in a row in the AL… funny how Stephen Strasburg didn’t garner a single vote because he got hurt and threw only 68 innings, while Neftali Feliz threw 69 innings and won the whole thing.
Someone tell me again why writers (or fans for that matter) care about saves? Just as dumb of a stat as Holds, if not dumber because of their perceived value.
Writers have always had a weakness for the kinds of stats that appeal to the broadest fan base. It only makes sense, given that they don’t write for the diehards like us, but rather the broader market that picks up the Sunday paper.
As long as BWAA does the voting, and BWAA doesn’t give guys like Dave Cameron votes, it’s never gonna change.
I just think the hypocrisy is amusing… Strasburg pitched 68 dominant innings — far better quality than the 69 innings that Feliz gets this year. I realize the competition in the NL is far greater, but to not even garner one third place vote while Feliz runs away with the award because he was pitching in the 9th inning instead of starting the game is ridiculous.
I’m honestly having a hard time coming up with a more overrated position/stat in professional sports than closers/saves. Maybe Wins, I suppose.
I read an article debating the most over-rated stats in all professional sports recently.
I believe Wins (baseball), INT (football), TD’s (football), and Assists (basketball) were all highly ranked in terms of worthlessness. There’s certainly times when Saves/Wins/INT/TD/etc can be reflective of a good player (great players tend to have those numbers back it up), but there’s also times when a QB throws a perfect pass that’s deflected by his own receiver, dumps a toss to the RB in the flat who goes for an 80-yard run, Felix (I shouldn’t have to say anymore, he single-handedly proves the case against Wins being meaningful), etc. etc etc…
Please stop with this arguement that WINS are meaningless. Wins are not meaningless. Looking at WINS w/o putting them in context is meaningless.
Roy Halladay had 21 wins and he was perhaps the best pitcher in the NL. Felix had the best ERA in baseball but only had 13 wins. It’s more intellectual to say that a LACK of WINS proves nothing than to say that WINS by itself are meaningless.
I WOULD NOT say that a pitcher is great because he has 18 wins but truth be told if you look at the top 18 game winners this year (Halladay, Sabathia, Wainright, Jiminez, Lester, Price, Cahill, Hughes and Verlander) would you say that all, w/ the exception of Hughes, are “true” aces? Of course you would.
Sry…it irks me to hear ppl call certain stats like Wins and Bat avg unimportant rather than explaining that they, like most other stats, lack enough context to make a relevant evaluation about a player and shouldn’t be used soley to rate someone.
I’m going to go out on a ledge and put words in MorneauVP’s mouth; he hates that Wins are used without context as a meaningful metric.
I think reasonable people can all agree with that, and the argument you make.
You don’t compare two pitcher’s value with Wins alone, nor do you compare them with xFIP alone. But that’s where you get mixed results in rankings – nobody can agree how much merit to place into the various metrics that go into measuring two players against one another.
So you are basically throwing Cy Young out the window? He’s a baseball legend because of his wins. How can you say that you are a diehard if you can’t acknowledge the only stat that REALLY matters?
No. I was referencing an article I read. I think Wins have their place, but they’re not the end-all-be-all of the quality of a pitcher. No stat can, alone, measure the value of a pitcher.
If you ask me “who’s the best pitcher in baseball?”, I’m going to look at W-L, IP, ERA, K9, XFIP, BB/9, and WHIP before I even start to answer.
No. I was referencing an article I read. I think Wins have their place, but they’re not the end-all-be-all of the quality of a pitcher. No stat can, alone, measure the value of a pitcher.
If you ask me “who’s the best pitcher in baseball?”, I’m going to look at W-L, IP, ERA, K9, XFIP, BB/9, and WHIP before I even start to answer.
So you are basically throwing Cy Young out the window? He’s a baseball legend because of his wins. How can you say that you are a diehard if you can’t acknowledge the only stat that REALLY matters?
In 1979, two players won the AL ROY. I was hoping for that kind of scenario here, as both Posey and Heyward are deserving of the award. Otherwise, it’s an endless game of “what ifs.” What if Heyward had batted in the 3 or 4 slot instead of 2 or 7? What if Posey had played a full season? They both equally deserved it, IMO.
Do people really think Heyward and A-Jax should have won? Anyone else notice the awards went to the two WS teams?
Again, the voting took place before the playoffs started.
Obviously. I think he’s saying that it was a good pick from the writers to start with.
Obviously. I think he’s saying that it was a good pick from the writers to start with.
these people have a pretty good argument and the WS issue doesnt matter since voting ended before then.
Jason Heyward 5.0WAR
Buster Posey 3.9WAR
AJAX 3.8WAR
Neftali Feliz 1.7WAR
Well said!!!
Andres Torres 6.0
Joe Mauer 5.1
Does that mean Torres should get more MVP votes than Mauer?
Andres Torres 6.0
Joe Mauer 5.1
Does that mean Torres should get more MVP votes than Mauer?
Buster Posey’s WAR over the games he played is a lot better than Heyward’s WAR over the games he played. Look at the context of the stat being used and not just numbers alone.
Yes Ajax should have won. Feliz pitched in 20 games in 2009. While technically still a rookie this year, for a reliever 20 games is 1/3 to 1/2 a season. Jackson’s first MLB game was this year.
Not only was Jackson a 297 hitter but he also was INCREDIBLE in center at comerica, which is a huge park. Jackson was robbed out of the ROTY AND the Gold Glove. His play in center at that parkshould have one him both awards, regardless of a near .300 avg. He was by far the best rookie in both leagues.
5.4 UZR. Nothing stellar.
Then tell me a better Rookie position player. Not every position player, ROOKIE.
Danny Valencia had a 5.9 UZR. Apparently he was a better defender than Jackson.
Just sayin’.
But you’re right, Jackson was the best rookie position player. Just not the best rookie.
I think I would have gone with Jamie Garcia, just for the fact for a starter to have a sub 3 ERA his rookie year is incredible…my biggest disappointment with Posey is that he didnt play the whole year if he did he might have had a late season slump that Heywerd had but either way he was very good….Feliz shouldnt have won, the AL always goes to closers lately Feliz, Bailey, Street and I dont see much value in a guy who pitches one inning every 3 days
Matusz not being higher in the voting is a joke.
Additionally, Heyward should have won in the NL because of his OBP. Posey was great. Heyward was better.
This award is overrated, anyways, how many players have a stellar rookie season then falter the rest of their career? Eric Hinske? Angel Berroa? Bobby Crosby? Scott Williamson? Jason Jennings? Dontrelle Willis? Ben Grieve? Whatever happened to all those guys? Winning the ROY doesn’t mean you have a good career, and I’m sure Heyward will get the last laugh when he ends up having a better career than Posey.
Go become a writer.
Go become a writer.
Should have been Heyward. Argue all you want about what Posey did in his big-league time, but Heyward played more games at the big-league level, and thus provided his team more value. I know it’s Sabean’s fault, but this isn’t the “Which Rookie Would Have Been More Valueable Over 162 Games?” Award, it’s the Rookie of the Year Award. And the NL Rookie of the Year was Jason Heyward.
Austin Jackson has a serious case for the AL award, too.
It’s also not the “Which Rookie Played in More Games” Award.
Posey and Heyward had very similar lines (walks aside). That fact alone makes Posey the winner. A catcher simply should NOT be drawing offensive comparisons to a right fielder.
Posey also spent a handful of games at first base. So you could say that a right fielder simply should not be drawing offensive comparisons to a first baseman.
I love Posey. I really do. But this was Heyward’s award.
playing half a season at catcher even takes a toll on your body. It’s kind of like Victor Martinez, great hitter but he is never in the top 5 in OPS because playing games at catcher is so tough on you legs. In terms of defense, an above average RF < above average 1B/C. Posey also finished with a higher OPS than Heyward, so his SLG made up for the OBP and then some
FanGraphs disagrees, by a wide margin. Heyward = 5 WAR. Posey = 3.9 WAR.
OBP > SLG. Just because OPS arbitrarily equally weights them doesn’t mean that is the case. Because it’s not.
Heyward was the better player.
God… All this WAR talk. Posey played less games making his WAR lower. Posey’s WAR over the games he played > Heyward’s WAR over the games he played.
But the award isn’t for value per game! It’s just for value, which is a term that is relative for the number of games played, which is why WAR is applicable here.
Do you see MVP winners who only played half of a season? Was Justin Morneau even mentioned this year for the MVP after he got hurt? Of course not! But was he mentioned as a candidate prior to getting hurt? Darn right he was!
So basically.. It’s whoever made the biggest impact on their respective teams. I think Posey takes it over Heyward, regardless how many games played. And a side not here, Posey played more than half the season. For Posey to win over Heyward playing 2 months less, and by a lot too, that’s pretty impressive.
Posey’s day off from C consisted of him playing 1B. Heyward’s day off consisted of him sitting on the bench. And for the record, Posey played 910 innings total w/ 662 played as a C. That’s 73% of his games spent in the squatting position and being involved in every pitch. That’s a hell of a lot of physical demand on his body.
I get it. Like, I really do. I understand the physical demand on his body. But this isn’t the “who tolerated more body strain” award. It’s Rookie of the Year. Throughout the course of the year, Heyward provided more value to his team.
I simply broke the C position thing to answer why he didn’t play all of his games there. if you want to continue to think that C isn’t a more valuable and important position than a RF then ok. Have fun.
There are statistics that are out there to measure the value of a player with respect to the position they play. It’s called WAR.
Posey’s day off from C consisted of him playing 1B. Heyward’s day off consisted of him sitting on the bench. And for the record, Posey played 910 innings total w/ 662 played as a C. That’s 73% of his games spent in the squatting position and being involved in every pitch. That’s a hell of a lot of physical demand on his body.
Posey played 1B but he’s not a first baseman. He’s a catcher. Get your facts straight. Sure he played 1B when Molina was around. But is that why Posey hit like he did? He’s a catcher. He hit well comparable to other positions. That’s it. Shh..
What part about “spent a handful of games at first base” even slightly suggested that I thought he was a full-time first baseman?
Good grief. Allow me to simplify my thinking for you so you’ll understand it:
– 5.0 FG WAR > 3.9 FG WAR —> Heyward > Posey.
That make sense?
“Posey and Heyward had very similar lines (walks aside).”
because walks don’t mean anything
Heyward was a little TOO patient at the plate. Maybe that’s why he walked so much and not hit enough HR? Sorry, that’s just his flaws in something that made him look so good. BUT maybe he could’ve been better.
could’ve.
Heyward was a little TOO patient at the plate. Maybe that’s why he walked so much and not hit enough HR? Sorry, that’s just his flaws in something that made him look so good. BUT maybe he could’ve been better.
could’ve.
15 more walks. If Posey had 15 more walks he would have about a .390 OBP. I’ll let Posey slide on those 15 walks if he’s giving me 18 hrs, a .862 OPS and good defense @ C (Heyward posted a .849 OPS). If you ask ANY GM if they could get a RF production @ C and they would be all over him.
I can’t wait for Posey to burn out and hit .243 with 9 homeruns in two years. (hater – admittedly)
Braves fan or Dodger fan right there not that im criticizing you Posey Hater
Dodgers fan (see LoDuca, Martin, or Piazza on the effing Mets).
On the contrary, I can’t wait for Posey to be a superstar and be catcher ranked higher than Mauer. He ain’t no Martin. =P
Posey was phenomanal in taking over the catching role tat was molina’s in San Fran,Ill be honest here I think Heyward should have won it.He carried the Braves this season into the postseason.And dont forget he has played more games in the season than posey.
Posey carried the Giants to the playoffs too. This is ROY. Not most games played award. Sorry man, Heyward was good. But I can’t understand your argument that Heyward should have won over Posey.
Joe Sheehan had a good point that Posey started about the same number of innings at catcher as a regular full-time catcher would have in half a season. Great player and a guy who could be winning MVP awards in the very near future, but I’d still have given Heyward the nod based on the 180 more PAs and 36-point advantage in OBP. That said, I don’t have a huge problem with Posey winning.
As for the AL, it’s apples and oranges, but I give an everyday CF the advantage over a closer when it’s this close.
181 hits, 247 total bases, 103 runs scored, 48 extra-base hits, 34 doubles, 10 triples and 27 stolen bases vs 40 saves and a 2.73 era
Should have been a landslide vote the other way
I like how you ignored the 170 strikeouts and the pedestrian OPS.
I also left out only 69 IP with a mediocre k/bb ratio
I knew he wouldn’t win but IMO Colvin (even missing all september) was as good as Heyward was yet he doesn’t even get a vote?
im a braves fan and i think Gaby Sanchez deserved the award, OK Buster Posey was better than Heyward, but Sanchez was .273 19 HR 85 RBI’s, i mean 85 fu****g RBI’S!!! thats enought for me…
Braves and Giants went to the playoffs because of their respective rookies. Did the Mets make it? Wait.. what place were they?
Braves and Giants went to the playoffs because of their respective rookies. Did the Mets make it? Wait.. what place were they?
im a braves fan and i think Gaby Sanchez deserved the award, OK Buster Posey was better than Heyward, but Sanchez was .273 19 HR 85 RBI’s, i mean 85 fu****g RBI’S!!! thats enought for me…
Personally I really wanted Heyward to win the award, being a Braves fan, but I can understand how Posey won it. He was deserving, as was Heyward, but Posey finished stronger and so many people remember the most recent thing and can’t evaluate the whole. I think the real shame was Jamie Garcia though. A sub 3.00 ERA for a rookie and everything should have got him more than 1 vote. And who in the world voted Gaby Sanchez number 1? (let alone twice) It was easy to see that most writers had it Posey or Heyward, 20 1st/9 2nd and 9 1st/20 2nd respectively. I think it really came down to the end of August and September. Posey and the Giants came on really strong whereas the Braves really just held on for their spot in the playoffs (Even though the records were identical) Really think that last part was the reason Posey won. Both had the stats to win. Oh well, seems the Braves had another rookie that finished second a few years back that turned out to be pretty good.
This turned out exactly how I thought it would. I believe both deserved the award. I feel like the writers are starting to get it right more often. I’ve agreed with big chunks of their voting in the last two years…
Heyward got wayyyy too much East Coast Hype – just like all the East Coast teams in the playoffs. Giants were not supposed to win the world series – according to many ESPN analysts… but they did… And now Buster Posey wasn’t supposed to win this award? Forget about what Posey did in the playoffs, and forget about he caught a Giants pitching staff was unhittable in the postseason, but simply look at his impact during the regular season. Heyward was a great player this year, and he would have won hands down if this wasn’t the year of the Rookie, but simply look at the similar numbers both players put up – and decide who wins the award. 1. Jason Heyward – who put up all of his numbers throughout the season and played right field? 2. Buster Posey – who played 2/3 of the amount of time as Heyward, and put up similar numbers, while catching the best pitching staff in the MLB (Not to mention – who performed better in September when it really counted!) Don’t be blind – this was Poseys award all the way – and he deserved it!
Not only did he catch the best pitching staff. He also called the best pitching staff.
erved it!
*And Feliz Deserved it!
No issues with either winner here. Twins Territory is excited for a full of season of Valencia next year!
Posey: on base 154 times
Heyward: on base 235 times
nuff said
Heyward started opening day, Wasn’t Posey in minors to begin year?
You’re right, I don’t know why everybody wanted Posey to win, Heyward could be the next Ken Griffey Jr. I glad I found someone who agrees with me.
you’re right, I don’t know why everybody thought Posey was going to win, Heyward could be the next Ken GriffeyJr. I’m glad I found someone who agrees with me.
Fear the Beard has some issues. I guess you are playing the ‘nobody respects us’ card. That is a joke. Look, just because people didn’t pick the Giants doesn’t mean you have to get your panties in a wad. Nobody in their right mind would have picked them…if the Padres didn’t fall apart in the last month, the Giants wouldn’t have been in the play-offs. I give them credit, they won it and deserve it but don’t give me ‘the whole world is against us”…that is played out and is a tired arguement. What do you mean Posey ‘wasn’t suppose to win ROY’….I watched every single guy on ESPN from Kruk to Olney pick Posey as their ROY. Get your facts straight if you want to play that sad, sad song. I am a Braves fan and I said Posey 1 and Heyward 2. Both have potential to be great players in different ways.
The pitcher vs position player arguement will go on forever. Hideo Nomo won ROY over Chipper Jones (I think ’95) and it was the same discussion we are having today.
My song isn’t so sad considering – The Giants kinda won it all – and Buster Posey kind of won NL Rookie of the Year. I guess I have a few things I can retort back, but I’ll make it brief and let you and your love for the tomahawk sit back and listen.
Firstly, I am not playing the nobody respects us card… everyone knows there is a little more hype for East Coast Teams (given the history and rivalries). There is also more of a fan base… Unless you are one of the few East Coast people (assuming you are from the East Coast) who aren’t biased…
Secondly, a lot of people actually saw the Giants making the playoffs, more than you think. They probably didn’t back east because they were too caught up in their own races (which is fair enough), but many people back West thought the Padres would choke in September. You should be lucky too. Those same Padres almost knocked your Braves out of contention too…
Thirdly – I will give you some credit for doing your research. Kruk and Olney did indeed think the award would go to Posey… after the Playoffs began and after he had an extraordinary September. Before that though – Analysts were Heyward all the way. They didn’t pay as much attention to Posey, who was catching gems most of the season. But that is alright – most keep their gut back east.
Lastly – It isn’t the nobody respects us card – but the recognition card. Most people knew SF was a good club out west, but they didn’t understand HOW good they were, or how good Posey was. Heyward received the hype from Day 1 – and no one could deny that. Many will even say he got so much hype, that he couldn’t live up to it – even though he did have a very good year.
We have our differences – and I’ll leave it at that. I am glad though that you agreed that Posey should go Number 1. As for the AL – there is the real battle…
Actually I have to disagree with you to a certain point. I’ve been a Giants fan for 14 years. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a diehard orange and black. But the Giants weren’t projected to do all that well prior to the 2010 season. They were projected to be 3rd or 4th place, with the Dodgers taking the NL West. The Padres were surprising this year in addition to the Giants as well. But back to my point, there was really no hype whatsoever for the Giants to win. The only hype was really seeing the team get better. Which certainly they did. AND WE WON THE WS!
Well, not surprised that AJax didn’t win the RoTY.
Both AJax and Feliz deserved the award; it just so happened that Feliz’s team went to the WS.
Congrats to both Feliz and Posey!
And to AJax, as a Tigers fan, I’m looking forward to many years of watching you in a Detroit uniform!
As always said, voting is done before the playoffs. Now its possible that Feliz won because Texas went to the playoffs.
Not sure why there’s all the Heyward had a higher WAR arguments. Heyward played in 34 more games
Heyward played 142 games and a 5.0 WAR, which is 1 win every 28.4 games
Posey played 108 games and a 3.9 WAR, which is 1 win every 27.6 games
If each played 162 games with their current WAR rate
Heyward- 5.70 WAR
Posey- 5.85 WAR
And the argument now ends. Well said!
I also don’t think WAR factors in putting the right numbers down behind the plate.
Yeah well someone replied earlier and said that’s dumb because there’s no telling how good Posey could have been if he played more games. Well yeah there’s truth to that, but you also cannot say he would Not have performed good. That’s why I go based on averages and not total.
Heyward was a better offensive player this year (by an absolutely tiny margin), played longer, and was the best hitter on his team. I kind of expected Posey to win but thought it would much closer.
Congrats to Posey for winning a ROY award that hasn’t had this many good candidates in a long time.
This is a complete hose job in the AL once again. No way does a relief pitcher that throws just 69 innings deserve this award. Austin Jackson played every inning in 151 games. He did it at the plate, in a lead off role, did it on the bases leading the team in steals, and he did it in the field as well as any other CF’er in the league. Closers are way over valued.
Feliz was worth 1.7 WAR to the Rangers. Jackson was worth 3.8 WAR to the Tigers. His contribution is simply way more valuable than what any closer can provide.
Awesome how saves and contributions to a playoff-team are the most important stat to voters. It’s a darn shame, it really is.
If Miguel Cabrera doesn’t win MVP, then Detroit will really have been stripped from TWO DESERVING candidates.
To say individual stats alone should win an award is just ignorant. What’s baseball all about? Having fun and winning games. Talk to the managers, they could care less of stats as long as they win. Of course stats have a lot to do with winning. But when you say that winning shouldn’t be the most important stat… just stop and think.
To say individual stats alone should win an award is just ignorant. What’s baseball all about? Having fun and winning games. Talk to the managers, they could care less of stats as long as they win. Of course stats have a lot to do with winning. But when you say that winning shouldn’t be the most important stat… just stop and think.
You really think that Mig CLEARLY deserves it over Hamilton or Cano, both had equally great offensive years and contributed great defense on championship caliber teams?
It wasn’t so much of a surprise to me to see Posey winning.Posey and Heyward are both Georgia Natives so I don’t really care which one won.If it had been the other way around with the Braves winning the World Series , Heyward would have won ROY I bet.Baseball Writers have their stupid edge when it comes to awards.
Ever since Posey started catching for the Giants full time, he has had a big impact with the team.It isn’t easy calling games behind the plate for a rookie, I think he done a good job of that.
Yes, it sucks Heyward didn’t win it but look at the bright side, he’s got a long future ahead of him and can win bigger awards such as MVP right?
Um. The votes were in before the playoffs started.
Obviously he didn’t deserve to win, but Gaby Sanchez put up some pretty good numbers (and punches), and I feel like no one really recognized him.
The NL rookie class this year was INSANE! The nine players that garnered any points were (in order of rank):
Buster Posey
Jason Heyward
Jaime Garcia
Gaby Sanchez
Neil Walker
Starlin Castro
Ike Davis
Jose Tabata
Jonny Venters
And we didn’t even mention the likes of Tyler Colvin, Madison Bumgarner, and Mike Stanton. Any other year and any of these three could have easily won it. What a rookie class, indeed.
Obviously he didn’t deserve to win, but Gaby Sanchez put up some pretty good numbers (and punches), and I feel like no one really recognized him.
Austin Jackson’s candidacy for ROY was hurt badly by the injuries to Joel Zumaya and Magglio Ordonez. The Twins likely would have won the division anyway, but the Tigers would have been in it until September with those players, and Ordonez’s presence would have helped boost Jackson already impressive numbers such as 101 runs scored, instead of the anemic offensive the team finished the season with.
A closer only benefits from being on a winning team, because despite Feliz’s performance, if he was on most teams he would have only reached 25 saves at most. And yes, it does bother me that he had played last year unlike Jackson who spent 2009 in Triple A Scranton. Just like Armando Galarraga was robbed off a perfect game, highlighted by Jackson’s amazing catch, Austin was robbed off the ROY award.
About Posey playing two thirds of a season compared to Heyward, it makes me think of Brendan Boesch two half’s. and how our perception of him changed as the season went on. This is why I don’t like when people assume that a player given every game would produce to the max, and what did Danny Valencia play like a third of the season?