In December of 2008, the Yankees signed righthander A.J. Burnett to a five-year, $82.5MM deal mere days after signing C.C. Sabathia to an even heftier deal. Their respective performances in the last two games of the ALCS have been microcosms of their performances this season. Today, Sabathia allowed two runs and fanned seven batters across six innings of work. Meanwhile, Burnett surrendered five runs in six innings last night, putting the Yankees on the brink of elimination.
Burnett has turned in a 5.26 ERA this season, the worst of his career along with a 7.0 K/9 ratio, his lowest since 2001. While the Yankees won a World Series with Burnett, they are now saddled with paying him roughly $50MM over the final three years of his contract.
Given the opportunity, would the Yankees make the same deal with Burnett again?
Of course not. They should’ve looked into his history pre-2008. Any Jays fan (myself included) could’ve told them about the pros and cons of Burnett.
Agree.
He hasn’t pitched horribly vs what most people expected. He’s only getting older with more wear and tear. This should not be surprising.
With all do respect, I don’t think any MLB exec needs to ask a fan about pros and cons of any player.
With all due respect, lighten up. I just said it to illustrate my point. Do you think I really expected The Yankees to phone me and ask about Burnett?
With all due respect, I don’t think any MLB exec would need a fan to tell them about the pros and cons of a player. Burnett has been around for a while, the Yankees knew everything they needed to know about him before he signed.
Yeah, and we’ll see how many millions they will waste on him because “the Yankees knew everything they needed to know about him before he signed”
A.J. Burnett’s middle name is inconsistency, and, guess what? He lives up to it every single start.
Ok, random guy named Matt. Even you know how inconsistent Burnett is now and always was….. do you think the Yankees are surprised about his inconsistencies? It has never been a secret that he’s an all or nothing starter, with a career record around .500. Let’s laugh at the Yankees and wonder how they could ever get over this contract and maybe save up enough money to survive. LOL
And the fact he is pretty much a 2 pitch pitcher and was coming off a 4.07 ERA season when they gave him that big contract.
Great stuff but he never put it together consistently.
Of course they do. They don’t win last year without him. Flags fly forever.
I was going to come on here saying how idiotic people are if they think the Yankees do it again. I believed that everyone voting yes would just say something like “the yankees throw around money.” I change my mind. This is a good point. If one looks at it as “Would the Yankees give Burnett a 3 year $50 MM contract this offseason” then I think it is a different story
They do it again. They got him to win in 2009. He doesn’t come to the Yankee sfor 3/50. You’re not bright.
Yeah 82 million dollars justifies being the third best pitcher on a WS team for one year…everyone can have an opinion, but calling someone not bright for raising a hypothetical argument is idiotic.
It’s not like AJ Burnett had a Josh Beckett type 2007 WS where he was so great some Red Sox fans try to justify losing Hanley. Burnett was good in 2009, but he wasn’t the ace…Sabathia was. The Yankees are in it every year, only one World Series doesn’t justify it. They could’ve won without Burnett…spending that type of money can get you a #3 guy behind Sabathia and Pettitte. If Burnett can be a key performer for another WS winner, then he can suck the other 3 years and sort of justify the deal.
How do you know?
They couldn’t have spent $15m (or whatever Burnett earns) and allocated that money elsewhere and achieve the same or similar results?
Using your logic – EVERY player on the 2009 team was critical. Anyone one player could have caused the course of history to change.
I agree completely. I bought an AJ Burnett shirt when I went to Yankee stadium, now would I do that again? I don’t think so.
That was dumb. Should have gotten Rivera.
I thought everyone buys Jeter jerseys. Isn’t that how the Yankees justify giving $30 million a year to an below average fielding shortstop?
Love the ID name EB, one of my fav players of alltime.
He was my favourite too. I started getting into baseball in 1987 when he got called up and I just instantly liked him. Had speed, power, great D. The Sox havn’t had that good a centerfielder since he left for Chicago!
Yes because they probably wouldn’t have won the World Series without him.
The fact is, they needed a pitcher with CC Sabathia. What were the alternatives? Ben Sheets? No thank you. Derek Lowe? I’d pass too. Bring back Randy Johnson? Maybe could’ve gotten his 300th win, but I think we tried that experiment.
Ryan Dempster at 4 years and 52M certainly would’ve been more appealing than Burnett at his numbers; however, Dempster was never going to leave Chicago anyways.
Point is, number 27 was a great World Series and it wouldn’t have been won without Burnett. It is nice that George got to see one more.
-wtk
They don’t win last year without him. They’ll just print the $50MM left on his deal in the basement of Yankee Stadium. They’d definitely do it again.
How do you know this though? Was when he went 1-1 in the World Series and gave up 7 runs in 9 innings? Or was it the 8 earned runs in 12 innings during the ALCS? Nothing about his postseason peformance shouts irreplaceable, and he was pretty good during the regular season but far from irreplaceable. If they didn’t sign Burnett they would’ve spent money somewhere and would’ve still had to fill a rotation spot…it shouldn’t be considered Burnett or internal options.
They could’ve signed Derek Lowe (who is still overpaid) and had him pitch behind Sabathia and Pettitte and still won the WS imo. If Burnett pitched well in the playoffs I’d understand this argument, but he wasn’t even average.
he didnt pitch bad yesterday, shouldve of been pulled earlier. Look im just suprised he hasnt been injured yet
You might say he “puked the chalupa”. Really hoping that phrase permanently enters the universal baseball lexicon…
I wouldn’t count on that… lol
it was him or derek lowe. what i really wish we did differently was get ted lilly over kei igawa back in like 06 or 07
NO! I definitley think the Yankees are unhappy with Burnett. I could see the Yankees signing another pitcher like Derek Lowe.
Uhh no.
He had a bad season, I don’t think his career is over. Josh Beckett pitched like a bag of dog crap this year, you could ask the Red Sox the same question and I think they’ll say they still wanted to sign him.
I don’t think the Burnett deal was that good in retrospect, he just didn’t deserve that kind of money, but I see him improving next season. It’s not like he’s lost his stuff yet. He did a lot for them last year and at worst he will be an overpaid innings eater who gives you some good games.
Before this year his ERA was 4.04 and 4.07 with the Jays when he got that massive contract from the Yankees and this year it’s 5.26 lol…
He’s actually had 3 bad seasons in a row and is worth nowhere near 15+ million.
And lol @ the blind homers who voted yes. I’m sure you can get a pitcher just as good as Burnett for half the price and I’m sure Yankees would have won with or without Burnett.
Cue the replies about the AL East being every pitcher’s worst nightmare…
I think the Red Sox regret both Beckett and Lackey actually.
Totally disagree. Without Beckett in 2007, Sox don’t win the WS. One would be foolish to stick a fork in Beckett based on 2010. He’s only 30. Lackey turns 32 in a few days. Both Beckett and Lackey similarly had rocky 1st seasons in Boston. Beckett came back from his awful 2006 and went 20-7 and 3.27. Lackey was disappointingly inconsistent in his first Boston season, though he led Boston in IP this year, which is a good sign. He shook off alot of the “fragile” stereotypes people were giving him. He had alot of ups and downs, no one would argue that. I am very curious to see how he bounces back in 2011, I think he pitches similar #’s to 2008-09. With Lester and Buchholz at the front, Beckett and Lackey can be the best 3-4 in the majors if they regain pre-2010 form. Yes, I said 3-4. Though 2010 was frustrating, I would argue that regretting both is not being very objective, especially considering other options available. Ok, if they don’t sign Beckett, would they try to go all in on Cliff Lee? What if they lost out on Lee (Yankees) and Beckett (Yankees/Rangers)? Then Sox are left standing alone. Maybe they pass on Lackey to get Lee, but same thing. Miss on Lee, you miss both. Then Wakefield is your #5. Ugggh no thank you. So no, no regrets.
I’m glad they did, otherwise the Braves would be wasting even more payroll on Burnett than they are wasting on Derek Lowe. Thanks jerks!
As a Braves fan I would absolutely like the Yankees to do the deal again. Otherwise he might be in a Braves uniform.
There’s something magical that happens to pitchers wearing Braves uniform. Just ask Javy Vazquez.
I hate Vazquez’s guts. I hope Cashman has learned a lesson not to reaquire pitchers that have a bad history with the Yankees. I didn’t care about Melky, but I think we should have not gave up Arody Vizcaino. I think(even with the injury) he puts our farm at least 11 ranked.
As a Yankee fan, I would say unequivocally NO! They could have used the funds they spent on sad sack AJ “Brunette” on other areas last year and won it all anyway. And they wouldn’t be saddled for the next three years with a horrendous pitcher ! If they can eat a good chunk of his contract and trade him this off season, I say do it…
It’s a sunk cost. Gotta roll with it. He’ll be difficult to trade even if the Yankees eat two-fifths of his remaining contract and persuade him to lift his limited no-trade (to 10 teams per year) clause. He can’t possibly be as bad going forward as he was this year.
Of course they would, unless someone is imagining that they know in advance how he’d perform in every season of his contract. You give a pitcher that many years, the chances that he’ll have poor seasons or blow his arm out somewhere along the line are fairly high. But if you’ve got infinite money to spend, it doesn’t matter. Which is why only the Yankees do it, and why they’ll do it again, and again, and again.
Hahahaha
sincerely,
Blue jays
Burnett was a type A free agent but the Jays only got a 3rd rounder for him.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
And a sandwich pick.
Don’t remember the prospects but they were fairly good.
Better than being stuck with him for 3yr/50mil contract.
Took Paxton originally, didn’t sign got Noah Syndergaard this year.
Do you know who we got with that other pick?
Jacob Marisnick.. youngy speedy outfielder. still in the GCL though, still 19
Hahahahaha
Sincerely
blue jays
hahahahahahahaha
sincerely,
Vernon Wells
Anybody who took a simple look at A.J. Burnett’s career record could see that it was an absurd overpayment. Yeah, there’s raw stuff and the ability to completely shut down a lineup every now and then, but the guy’s basically a two-pitch pitcher and if age begins to diminish the quality of either of those at the tail-end of that deal, he’s a reliever.
If they wanted an inconsistent two-pitch starter without paying $82.5MM, they should have just made a deal with Detroit and gotten Edwin Jackson, who was readily available. Inconsistent as they come, but has a nice tendency to show up when truly needed (his scoreless 9 IP against the Dodgers earlier this year when the D-backs were really struggling is a prime example, although it wasn’t a shutout because it went into extra innings and the D-backs STILL LOST) as well as the capability to throw a shutout against the best of lineups with his raw stuff.
Unlike Burnett, who is exiting his prime, EJ is just entering his. If the Yanks were acquiring Burnett for the first two years of his deal, wouldn’t it have made more sense to get EJ, who had two years of arbitration left? Hindsight is 20/20, but it’s a thought worth noting.
Errr, at that time, it would have been a deal with Tampa. Which may not have flown as well. Woopsies.
Blast it, I thought I was onto something here.
And EJ also had three years of arb left at that time. But he’s been slowly figuring things out since near the end of his Tampa stint, so it would have been a much more cost-effective idea than a Burnett signing.
Edwin Jackson had a 5.76 ERA in 2007 and a 4.42 ERA in 2008. Add to that the fact that he played for the Rays who just went to the WS and were now legit contenders in the AL East. Why in the world would they trade Jackson to the Yanks. WOuldn’t of. SO what’s the point of you mentioning him?
Because I mixed up my dates. I was thinking of EJ’s availability circa ’09 while the Burnett signing was in ’08. Just a mistake, it’s gonna be okay. 🙂
I find it hilarious that there are multiple many people on this comment thread under the impression that his 2009 ALCS/World Series ERA north of 6 would be all that difficult to replace.
Sorry, folks, but yes, the Yankees probably would’ve won the World Series without A.J. Burnett last year. Additionally, yes, many people thought he would be a bad signing, though for entirely different reasons (Injury concerns).
Did you watch game 2 of the World Series?
Did you watch game 5? For every out he recorded, he gave up a run! Outside of the ALDS, for every good game he pitched, he pitched an absolutely awful game. Additionally, both of the games he lost in the postseason were close slugfests. A league average pitcher might not have won game two of either series, but considering the Yanks scores six runs in each game five, you could throw just about any other scrub out there and gotten a win.
In other words, his beyond awful games completely cancel out his good games: the Yankees still would’ve won with just about any warm body who could throw the ball in the general vicinity of the strike zone.
The people saying the Yanks couldn’t win last year without Burnett might have a leg to stand on if the series each went to seven, but they didn’t. He was effectively useless due to his pair of game five implosions.
Thank you. Everyone talks about Game 2 but forgets Game 5.
Since when is Game 2 of the World Series more important than Game 5?
when ur up 3-1 in the world series… being down 0-2 is far worse then being up 3-1 losing agame and going into game 6 knowing you still have pettite and CC
Wow…Captain Small Sample Size.
Look AJ is by no means Cy Young and he’s absolutely overpaid and the Yanks knew this, knew the risks and did it anyway because he was the best available option after CC that only required money….their greatest assett.
However, post-season ERA’s don’t tell the story completely. Yanks had a 3 man rotation and they won 3/5 games he started in the ’09 playoffs.
vs Min-6 IP 1 run
vs LAA- 7 IP 2 runs
vs LAA- 6 IP 6 runs (4 runs in 1st inning and then left with a runner on 1st and 2nd in the 7th)
vs Phi- 7 IP 1 run
vs Phi- 2 IP 6 runs
To say anyone could’ve done what he did is a meanigless statement because it’s not an absolute truth. However, look at CC this year. 1 horrible game vs Tex and then one much better one. It happens.
Did you look at my other post before writing this? On paper, he was worse than league average in the playoffs, by definition of the word, just about any pitcher could have gone out there and gotten them at least two wins in the five games he pitched and that would’ve likely been enough for the Yankees to win.
Sabathia may have pitched poorly in his first two games of the postseason, but the Yankees still won them. It boils down to the basic fact that, if not for Sabathia pitching a much better game yesterday, the Yankees would be preparing for the offseason right now instead of flying back to Texas. If you replaced him with a league average starter, they could very well still be in it based on the seven runs they scored last night, but the odds would be a lot worse.
Conversely, look at Burnett last year. He won his first game of each series, yes, but the absolutely awful games he turned in in each game five make them both a moot point. Had you taken a league average starter who gave up five runs in all four games, the Yankees still win it all, because regardless of not performing as well in the two games he managed to win, they’d still be outperforming his two losses by enough to hang the win.
I think you need to reevaluate what it is that I’m making a point of here. I’m not arguing that the Burnett contract is a bust because he performed inconsistently in the 2009 playoffs. I’m arguing the ridiculous notion that taking Burnett out of the equation last year means the Yankees don’t win the World Series because the fact of the matter is, there’s more hard data supporting the fact they’d have won than otherwise. Sure, one could throw all the conjecture one wants at it about the fact anything can happen, but that’s a two way street. The way things DID happen, however, any league average starter would’ve still gotten a win in two out of four of Burnett’s starts and thus given the Yankees all they needed to win it all. Non-Yankee fans need to stop living in the fantasy world that the Yankees wouldn’t have won it all without Burnett last year and Yankee fans need to stop trying to justify Burnett’s awful contract (And no, I won’t argue he’s the worst, or even one of the top five worst, contract in baseball, but it was a bad signing at the time that looks even worse in hindsight) on the ridiculous notion that he was even remotely key to the Yankees winning the Series last year.
The choices for this poll should have read- “No” or “Hell No”. The Yankees could have found a = pitcher for 1/2 the money. They gave Burnett ace money and hes far from it.
What i think the yankees were hoping is that burnettes study under doc, and him being completely dominant the second half of his last season with the jays, was that aj was going to be one of those power arms that figures it out late and becomes really good. .
But in the end, what other team can have a 15 million dollar pitcher committed for years, and not even start him in the alds? and chances are he won;t start again unless they are up 3-1, 3-0 in the world series.
Any other team, besides a few, this would be a cripplying anchor of a deal, the yankees will just end up with the worlds most expensive spot starter, reliever in the league. no big deal.
giants 🙂
I don’t know what to say. Of course I’m incredibly pissed with A.J., and after last night I hoped I never heared or even seen him ever again. But last year, was actually decent. 13-9, 195 Ks is definetly not worth what he gets paid, but he was decent. He also had a couple of clutch starts in the postseason. However, 2010 was an entirely different story. I wasn’t particularly to excited about the deal at first because I know of his history and i know how he can throw a no-hitter one day, but be the worst pitcher out there the next. I really don’t know what to say, so i’ll just go ahead and leave you guys a penguin below.
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Ultimately AJ throws the ball so he has to be responsible. However, as much as I think Girardi is a good manager he totally muffed it last night. AJ gave him 6 IP of 2 run ball and next to Pettite’s game 3 it was the best game pitced up to that point. With a slim lead you need to watch AJ closely. His command was off and his velocity slipped from 94 mph to 91 and he was right around 90-95 pitches into the game. The moment he allowed a runner he should’ve been taken out of the game. With a lefty at bat (Murphy) you don’t intentionaly walk him w/ 2 outs already. It’s not like a situation where there’s 1 out and you need a DP. W/ a lefty up and 2 outs just bring in Logan to face the lefty. Certainly I would not have walked him. Then even after the intentional to put runners on 1st and 2nd w/ 2 outs and a righty up I would’ve brought in Joba. Bring ina fresh arm that can bring it at 95 mph and has a hard slider that runs away from RH batters.
Burnett threw the ball but I blame Girardi for putting him in a bad situation. 99 pitches thrown. He’s lost velocity and you’ve got a fresh RH flame thrower in the pen ready to go.
I agree He was mismanaged in his last start. You’ve got to have a quick hook with any pitcher who is either on short rest or really long rest. It makes it hard for them to be locked in and repeat their delivery as normal.
In AJ’s case the rest was good, because it gave him a chance to reset and rebuild his delivery a bit. But when he got past 80 pitches, the Yanks should’ve been ready to pull him at any time.
The worst part about it is this. I don’t think AJ is a fragile guy. In actuality he seems to handle NY pressure ok. However, his confidence is low. If I’m Girardi I do the best I can to protect AJ and to keep his confidence high. Going into the 6th inning AJ had pitched a good game and the score as Yanks up 3-2. He’s at 90 pitches and his FB velocity is from 94-96 to 91-93. As soon as he gives up a single to Vlad you yank him. This way he’s given you 6 IP and has allowed 2 runs and is responsible for 1 other. If that runner scores then the boxline still reads a respectable 6 IP and 3 earned runs allowed w/ 5 little singles allowed. That’s a quality start that AJ can be proud of and allows him to feel good about himself in case you need him down the road should we make it to the WS where the Yanks would go w/ a 4 man rotation again. But Girardi left him exposed and now AJ CAN’T feel good about himself and you have to wonder if his teammates feel good about him as well? Are they going to feel as if they need to score 7 runs in the 1st inning if he starts again this post season. SOmetimes managing is less about the x’s and o’s and even though I still have confidence in Giardi leaving AJ exposed in that situation was an epic fail. You NEVER intentionaly walk a batter and put the go ahead run on base with a 1 run lead and a “shakey” starter who has a high pitch count on the mound. Just bad…
Agree 100 percent.
“In AJ’s case the rest was good, because it gave him a chance to reset and rebuild his delivery a bit. But when he got past 80 pitches, the Yanks should’ve been ready to pull him at any time.”
With that top notch bullpen they have? I’m not sure Mariano has a 12 out save on his resume yet.
given the option of leaving him in there or pulling him for joba to face molina is kind of like being asked if you want to be shot in the right side of the head or the left side.
So bringing in a fresher power arm to face Molina wasn’t a better option than leaving in a AJ who was 95 pitches deep at that point? Really?
Also, say what you want about Joba but he pitched scorless innings vs Tex in Games 1 and 2 of that series. He had a 2.88 era in 34 IP in the 2nd half of the season. And he has a better pitch selection than AJ.
So then maybe they should have let him be a starter and saved the 85 million from the AJ deal then ya?
Or maybe you let the starter go the 6 IP that AJ gave us and bring in the reliever to take over. This game can be played anyway you want to play it dude.
Like all bullpens, the Yanks have their good days and bad. The Pinstriper’s pen could use improvement, but they got the job done in game 5. The only problem was that game 4 was important in putting pressure on the Rangers, and that’s something a win in game 5 couldn’t do after game 4’s loss.
Seems everyone is forgetting a small detail about Burnett. He always seemed to pitch well against NY and Boston when he was with the Blue Jays. He was somewhat mediocre pitching against the rest of the league, but the Red Sox and Yankees he beat often enough to impress Cashman. NY was afraid that Boston would make a bid, and figured that with a better team, he would pitch even better against Boston and gambled on the signing. It was a move to deprive the enemy of a weapon.To be fair, it’s still too early to pass judgement on the signing. Right now things don’t look good for NY but if they win another WS and he doesn’t implode, it can be said that it wasn’t a bad gamble.
I voted yes because the team runs its baseball operations like Montgomery Brewster in Brewster’s Millions. Case in point, 2007 Alex Rodriguez “negotiation.” Also, while the Brewers offered Sabathia a contract based on his projected value, I’m pretty sure the Yankees insisted on paying by the pound.
The team would definitely do the Burnett deal again, if only to save themselves the inconvenience of having to offer the $82.5 million to Marcus Thames this offseason.
Is this what the conversation is debasing to? Stupid comments? Have the Yanks cornered the market in bad deals?
see..
O. Perez
J. Lackey
B. Zito
V. Wells
A. Soriano
Btw, how freakin’ ironic is it that the Giants are up 3-1 in the NLCS and their $100 mil + pitcher hasn’t pitched a single game this post-season yet?
To be entirely fair to the John Lackey signing, there is absolutely no way that deal gets made if Burnett wasn’t signed to his ridiculous deal. Regardless of which team he went to, that’s what Lackey was going to get in that market because the Yankees established the market for a low 4 ERA strikeout pitcher with an injury history at $80MM+.
Honestly, I sincerely believe that’s a big part of the Yankees’ strategy. Throwing a ridiculous amount of money at a given player will most certainly get them to sign, but nobody seems to look at the other effect that has as something they intend to do, namely pricing equivelant players out of low market teams’ capabilities while putting pressure on other large, but not as large, market teams to pony up equivelant dollars to equivelant players. That has a twofold effect: the poor get poorer and the not-quite as rich get stuck with albatross contracts that they cannot afford. The Yankees can afford to pay Burnett $15MM a year to pitch out of the bullpen and go sign Cliff Lee and tie up a third of a billion dollars in their 1-2 starters, but there isn’t another team in baseball that can do that.
I’d call it kind of dirty, but I won’t lie, if I had Cashman’s resources, I’d do the exact same thing.
Thats a one sided look at it, you can’t say oh the red sox gave john lackey a bad deal, with too many years and zeros. because the yankees set the market for average pitchers making ace bucks.
So yes, by over paying for average players, or even over paying for good players, the yankees lead to agents and players wanting more and a general raise in prices for all somewhat big name FA’s
Just because they didn’t sign Lackey, Soriano, Perez, Zito, Helton etc, doesn’t mean they didn’t have an influence.
The Yanks weren’t the ones to set the marketin winter of 2009. The market is fluid and every year the market is set by the previous year. You can’t say the Yanks set the market for marquee pitchers with CC when CC was proceeded by Santana the year before, Santana was proceeded by Barry Zito and so on and so on. Ppl are acting as if the Yanks are operating in a bubble.
Couldn’t agree with you more. Really the average fan doesn’t understand the market. They see stats compared to dollars, it’s easy to point out a fan who lacks real understanding. When these people say “he is overpaid blah blah blah” they don’t understand that, with the simple minded thinking they use, 90% of the league is “overpaid.”
is it lonely up there on your high horse?
Lonely? No, I’m not the only one who remembers what the market was for AJ.
I like how you put Lackey in there, yet a few posts above mentioned “small sample size”.
Let’s see how 2011 works out before we condemn Lackey just yet, ok? If 2011 is like 2010, then yes, I will more apt to agree with you.
I’m not condeming the Lackey signing at all. However, we are 2 years into AJ’s deal and ppl, some Yanks fans included, are slamming the deal already. We can all point to a deal the previous year that set the market for a FA the following year. It’s absurd to say AJ ($16.5 mil per) set the market for Lackey ($16.5 mil per) w/o saying that Zambrano (avg of $18 mil per) set the market for AJ. Baseball is a small world w/ a handfull of skilled starters and an even smaller amount of agents who rep them. Why someone would think that comparisons wouldn’t play a factor is absurd.
Before this year his ERA was 4.04 and 4.07 with the Jays when he got that massive contract from the Yankees and this year it’s 5.26 lol…
He’s actually had 3 bad seasons in a row and is worth nowhere near 15+ million.
And lol @ the blind homers who voted yes. I’m sure you can get a pitcher just as good as Burnett for half the price and I’m sure Yankees would have won with or without Burnett.
———————–
I’m shocked at some of the comments and views here. Every deal has some intrrinsic risk and AJ’s were well known. However you can’t judge what the Yankees do and what their situation is the way you do for the 2/3 of the other teams. In NY every fan, media outlet and front office person is dissapointed if you don’t win the WS. If you don’t make the playoffs then people go ape poopoo.
In 2008 the Yanks went with a rotation of Mussina, Wang, Pettite, Hughes and IPK. By July Wang, Hughes and IPK were all on the DL and prior to that Hughes and IPK struggled. So from that point on the Yanks depended on a stellar Mussina, a mediocre Pettite 914-14, 4.54 era) and a horrible mix of Sidney Ponson (6.00 + era and currently out of baseball), Darrell Rasner (5.00 + era and sent to Japan) and Carl Pavano (5.77 era in 7 starts). Needless to say they finished 3rd that year and missed the playoffs for the 1st time in 13 years. Going into winter of 2008/2009 Cashman’s mandate was to improve the pitching staff by signing at least 2 front end starters. The pool of candidates were….
Sabathia
Burnett
Lowe
Pavano
Sheets
Harden
Garland
Unit
O. Perez
Wolf
Pavano, Sheets, Harden, and Unit simply weren’t going to happen because either they’ve already been in NY and were dissapointments or weren’t viewed as reliable guys to throw 200 IP. Garland and Wolf weren’t viewed as FO type guys that could survive in the AL East. That left Sabathia, AJ, Lowe and Perez. Sanathia was a no brainer. Perez has always had great stuff but was a huge question mark. Lowe was older (35), didn’t fair too well in his last stint in the AL East (5.42 ERA in 2004) and would demand a multi year contract that would pay him into his late 30’s. AJ was the most appealing because he had electric stuff. Pitched well in the AL East (3 year ERA avg under 4.00) and was 3 years younger than Lowe. Also factor in that he came off of a strong year of 4.07 ERA in 221 IP and led the league in Ko’s w/ 231. The ‘coup de gras’ of it all and the best way to capture the Yankees attention is to BEAT them. Yanks love to get guys who beat them (see Cliff Lee, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson). Burnett had a 1.64 era in 5 starts vs the Yanks in 2008 and was great vs the Red Sox (2.60 ERA in 4 starts) and Rays (3.15 era in 3 starts). Lifetime he was 34-17 vs the Yanks, Sox, Rays and O’s. Of course the Yanks were going to go hard after him.
Look at the other options.
Perez – 3/$36 mil w/ a 3-9 record and a 6.80 era from 2009-present in the NL East
Lowe- 4/$60 mil w/ a 31-22 record and a 4.33 era from 2009-present in the NL East
Perez was obviously a failure. Lowe was mediocre but hasn’t pitched in the AL for 6 years and probably wouldn’t have faired well back in the AL East.
So far, AJ has had 1 good year (13-9 w/ a 4.07 ERA in 207 IP) and was a solid #2 in 2009 and helped win a WS ring. 2010 has been jeckell and hyde. Either he’s great or he is horrible. There’s no sugar coating how bad he was this year. However, his stuff is still electric and his future is in his own hands. It’s not like he’s throwing garbage up there and the Yanks just have to hope that he can right himself over the next 3 years.
However, these are the Yanks. It’s not like his huge salary is going to keep them from making improvements this year or beyond. IF..big if..the Yanks sign Lee then behind CC, Lee, Pettire and Hughes, AJ becomes the highest paid #5 in baseball.
So if you ask that question and you’re being honest, the question is yes. The Braves had a similar offer (4/$60 I beleive) in place and whoever didn’t sign AJ was going to sign Lowe. And as good as Lowe is on paper I’m suspect as to whether he could duplicate that in the AL East at ages 35-38.
And to all that say the money could’ve been allocated towards something else…what? The Yanks, for better or worse, are set at every position and it’s not like it was a “either or” situation. The Yanks got everything they wanted in 2009 (2 front of rotation starters, good glove/good bat 1B and a good corner OF in Swisher via trade. To say the Yanks would’ve won anyway w/ or w/o AJ is sort of a non-arguement unless you can point to an easily obtainable (i.e didn’t require tons of prospects in a trade) that the Yanks could’ve had instead of AJ. W/o him it would be Sabthia, Pettite, Joba, Wang and ?????. Joba was ineffective in the 2nd half and Wang was horrible from the beginning and then injured by mid-season.
If not AJ then who?
your absolutely correct…case closed any big money club in the yankees situation would have done the same…and the Red Sox are a perfect example…they needed one more stater and they went out and got the best free agent available in John Lackey…and they payed him the same money as Burnett…but he comes with some risk and may also prove to not be worth his contract…Pitching is just very risky and if a team has a desperate need they will pay big money to fill it…and sometimes it doesn’t workout…i wish there was someone else the Yanks could have gotten but A.J. was their best option…but the Question is what should they do now…
“Pavano, Sheets, Harden, and Unit simply weren’t going to happen because either they’ve already been in NY and were dissapointments or weren’t viewed as reliable guys to throw 200 IP.”
Who whoa whoa…
How exactly does that last point validate the Burnett signing? Sure, he was coming off of a 200 IP season, but 2009 was the first time, in his entire career, he EVER pitched over 175 innings a second year in a row (To date, he’s topped 200 IP exactly twice in a row, 2008 and 2009). A.J. Burnett was the text book definition of not “viewed as reliable to throw 200 IP.” I doubt you could find a single person who is familiar with A.J. Burnett’s history and ISN’T surprised he has yet to hit the DL in NY.
Compare him to Lowe who’d made at least 32 starts seven years in a row leading up to his free agency. Either one would likely be a disaster, but on paper? Lowe probably would’ve been a better target for the Yankees. He put up a better ERA, showed more durability and is a ground ball pitcher as opposed to a right handed fly ball pitcher. One could argue that, since the Yankees hadn’t signed Teixeira yet, one might not’ve been able to reckon on a ground ball pitcher being a wise idea considering the Yankees’ recently bad defense, but on paper, Lowe would’ve been a more palateable target than Burnett.
Based on what? I guess we throw the 5.00 Era he had the last 2 years he pitched in the AL back in 2003 and 2004 right? I’m befuddled at the arguement you make for Lowe. Ppl want to imagine what Lowe MIGHT have done 4 or 5 years later after he struggled in the AL at ages 35+ yet ignore the succes that Burnett had the 3 years prior to 2009 when the Yanks signed him (170 IP and ERA under 4.00).
What I am trying to establish is not whether or not AJ will be a bad deal if he continues to fail over the next 3 years as he did in 2010. What I’m trying to establish, and respect, is the thought process that was most likely going on when they offered him the deal.
Again:
a) They wanted a power pitcher w/ FOR stuff.
b) They wanted someone who had success in the AL specifically against AL East opponents.
c) They wanted someone they could cut lose by the time they reached their late 30’s.
d) They wanted someone who they could acquire with money and not money AND prospects.
The one risk they viewed was his medical history and thus far he’s had 3 consecutive years of 33+ starts and has avg’d 197 IP over the first 2 years of this deal. So even if you don’t agree with the deal at least view the logic in step with the Yanks financial ability to absorb what they thought was the worst case scenario.
If not Aj then who? How about Lowe? Sure he was older but had a better track record of being healthy. Also, he has a better track record of pitching in the playoffs. In 2004 he pitched on short rest and went 3-0. If they really were looking for effective and reliable starting pitching they should have gone with him. Also, could have been had for less money and less years.
The issue with AJ hasn’t been his health. He hasn’t missed a start due to injury in over 3 years now. Derek Lowe would require being paid from age 35-38 and wasn’t the power pitcher the Yanks wanted. Who knows how he would’ve performed back in the AL and you simply can not sign him based upon 3 games in the playoffs that took place back in 2004. Does that great 2004 playoff erase the memories of the 5.00 + ERA he had that year?
He may not have missed a start in the last three years, but at the time of his signing in 2008 he had miss a lot of starts. In eight seasons prior to signing with the Yankees he had only started more than 30 games twice. And yes, those 3 starts in the playoffs that took place in 2004 did erase the memories of a 5.42ERA season. He pitched on short rest and pitched well and won the clinching games for all 3 levels.
Lowe may have been older but that just ties into the Yankees being able to get him for less money and less of a yearly commitment. And if you look at how the two of them have pitched the last two years, the money would have been better spent on Lowe. He may not be spectacular but he pitches his teams to wins.
Ok but you are arguing a point that is irrelevant to the Yankees situation. The issue with AJ over the 1st two years of his contract isn’t durability, as he has pitched 67 games so far, it’s his performance in 2010. So durability isn’t the issue and I could careless how many starts Lowe has because if he pitches the way he pitched in 2003 and 2004, the last 2 years he was in the AL, then it doesn’t matter does it? Ppl look at Lowe’s ERA in the NL and assume that would be what would be in the AL East and it just isn’t so, or certainly not what any of could say w/ any certainty.
Actually I look at the fact that even when he was in the AL with Boston he had much better years than AJ did. He was a 21 game winner and had a 42 save year. He wasn’t smooth sailing the whole time but he was a proven winner while pitching in the AL. So I don’t get what you are saying. He had his best year while pitching in the AL.
Lowe…. No.
I wish Moose came back 🙁
They won a World Series because they had him going every 3 days through the postseason. Of course they’d do it again.
In all fairness to AJ & before we run him out of town he was a very good #2 last yr for us & pitched a lights out Game 2 for us against the Phillies. He started this yr off really strong until he ran into some troubles this yr & hasnt found his 2009 form.
He is in yr 2 of a 5 yr contract so we have 3 more seasons of Aj. Girardi & Dave Eiland & staff need to work with him during the off season.
He was not a good #2 in 2009. A pitcher with a 4.04ERA with a 1.4WHIP is not good, he is lucky his ERA wasn’t higher especially when giving up 25 hr.
It’s no need to speculate about if they would or wouldn’t do it again…it’s done.The question is should they trade him…and if the answer is Yes then how much of his contract would it take to get a deal done and is it worth it…If the Yanks paid 11 mill of his salary per year…and they got back a Phil Coke type a Johnathan Albaladejo type and a Eduardo Nunez type….would it be worth it to move him and maybe use the prospects recieved sometime later in other deals…i know it might sound crazy…but if the Yanks do get Carl Crawford…then they are trading one of their outfielders…if it’s Granderson…couldn’t they then use what they get in the A.J. deal with Granderson to get a better starter than him…like Grienke-if he doesn’t put the Yankees on his no trade list or maybe Jeremy Guthrie…A.J. helped the Yanks win the 2009 WS and if he helps them in a trade in the future then he was definately worth his contract…Yankee fans lets hope after A.J. list his 10 team block list…that the Yankees can find a trade mate and move him…and flip those prospects to upgrade their rotation…i think some teams might want A.J. for 5 mill a year…
As he currently stands, Burnett would have to be a literal roster dump. If the Yankees wanted him out, they’d essentially have to eat at least 75% of his salary and expect nothing more than AAA bench depth back. Even combining him with Granderson, the Yankees still wouldn’t get much back, especially an MLB ready pitcher, much less a top of the rotation one.
The Burnett situation for the Yankees essentially boils down to “you made your bed, now sleep in it.” Short of outright releasing him and paying him to play somewhere else, the Yankees’ only real option is to hope he bounces back to at least league average.
i don’t know sometimes a sucker can be had…a team in the National league might take him on if the Yanks cover all but 4 mill of his salary per year…and they might get at least a Johnathan Albaladejo out it…maybe a Shelly Duncan or something…i know it won’t be much…but it could help in another deal to improve the team for 2011…and that team wouldn’t appear so dumb if his numbers are 4.04 era with 210 innings pitch…and who knows how much his era could drop in the National league…he could fill the back end of a teams rotation and help them get a playoff spot…a deal like that would have to wait until the good free agents are gone but it might happen…
Before this year his ERA was 4.04 and 4.07 with the Jays when he got that massive contract from the Yankees and this year it’s 5.26 lol…
He’s actually had 3 bad seasons in a row and is worth nowhere near 15+ million.
And lol @ the blind homers who voted yes. I’m sure you can get a pitcher just as good as Burnett for half the price and I’m sure Yankees would have won with or without Burnett.
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Ok I don’t want to sound like a geek or anything but I studied law and I love these things called facts. How many pitchers from 2006-2008 had avg’d 170 IP and an ERA lower or close to AJ’s (about 3.93)?
F. Herandez
CC Sabathia
J. Verlander
J. Lackey
J. Shields
S. Kazmir
J. Beckett (4.10)
R. Halladay
R. Oswalt
J. Santana
T. Lilly
D. Haren
J. peavy
C. Zambrano
They got CC. Lackey, Shields, Kazmir and Beckett were under contract and weren’t going to be traded to the Yanks from either the Angels, Red Sox or Rays. Hernandez and Verlander were young studs coming into their own and not being shopped at the time. And the Yanks showed they were unwilling to part with multiple blue chip prospects for Santana the year earlier so they weren’t going to pry Halladay, Oswalt, Haren, Peavy or Zambrano from anyone and Ted Lilly really isn’t a FO type of power pitcher they wanted. So really, who would the Yanks have gotten to fill that #2 spot? Sometimes it’s about getting the best of what’s available and not about getting exactly what you want at the price you want to pay.
“Ok I don’t want to sound like a geek or anything but I studied law and I love these things called facts.”
You just had to throw that in there
Especially noting that I’ve never heard of studying law as going hand in hand with being entirely fond of facts. Heck, a law degree is essentially a Doctorate in BSing people.
As noted above, you missed Derek Lowe, who averaged about 205 IP at a 3.50 ERA from 2006-2008.
ding ding ding. lawyers not only study facts, they study the art of omitting facts in their argument to prove a point !
That was an accident and certainly I’ve mentioned Lowe’s name in just about every other discussion regarding this AJ issue and the market that existed in winter of 08 and 09. It wasn’t left out to prove anything.
does it matter if they have the worst record in the league? they saved a whole lot of money. nice try with the comeback though
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Haha…and that’s what all fans root for right? The team that saves the most money. Well the Jays saved a lot of money by letting Halladay walk too. I could point that Vernon Wells contract too. You know, the one that escalates from $12.5 mil to $23, $21, $21 and ahhh yes…$21 over the next 4 years. I’m not above stooping to your level and playing the “na na na naa” game.
Watching AJ pitch this year, makes a fan wish for such stars of the past as Jeff Karstens, Darrell Rasner and Kei Igawa. Okay, maybe not Igawa.
The Yankees had to go for AJ. The year he signed his contract they had lost Chien-Ming Wang to injury and Mike Mussina to retirement – and they had missed the playoffs for the first time in 14 years.
They had to consider signing any pitcher who could pitch 175 or more innings above replacement level. That year, AJ seemed the second best option behind Sabathia, hence the contract.
Given the way the Yankees do business, there was almost no way they wouldn’t sign him, and the 2010 WS Title almost financially justifies the move by itself. If they get one more good year and one more title of which AJ is a significant part, the contract will be considered a plus by both management and fans.
Maybe next Red Sox fans can argue Julio Lugo was a good signing because they won the World Series with him and have tons of money anyways.
Or maybe the Rangers can be happy about signing A-Rod to that 252 million dollar deal that they are still paying because they wouldn’t go to the World Series without him being on the Yankees this year. Is this real life?
“Maybe next Red Sox fans can argue Julio Lugo was a good signing because they won the World Series with him and have tons of money anyways. ”
I will never, ever, ever, EVER defend the Julio Lugo signing. The Sox won the WS in spite of him. In fact, he almost blew the ALCS when he botched a routine fly ball in game 7 when it was still tight.
Me neither. That Lugo deal was putrid.
Here’s another example of what I’m saying because I don’t want to keep beating a dead horse. Here’s how two teams in a similar situation went about there business.
The Yanks and the Mets both live in a highly competive market. In 2008 they both failed to advance to the playoffs. The Yanks suffered blows to their rotation as Mussina retired, Wang was injured for half the season and Phil Hughes and IPK both showed they weren’t ready and both eventually suffered injuries that caused them to miss considerable time. The Mets suffered threw an embarassing collapse and had a horrendous bullpen that desperately needed a bonafide closer.
The Yanks identified AJ and CC as the two best on the market. CC Sabathia ($23 mil avg per year) got a deal comparable to Johan Santana ($22.9 mil avg per year). Yanks were competing with the Braves who had offered 4/$60 ($15 per) and Yanks countered w/ 6/$85 ($16.5 per). The market was set by the Braves offer and the Yanks knowingly overpaid but paid market value to get the guy they wanted. And at the time there simply was no better SP after CC on the OPEN MARKET than AJ.
The Mets needed a closer. They were publicly embarrased (as were the Yanks) because they failed to make the playoffs. In their eyes, and by most others account, K-Rod was the best closer on the market. They went out and got the man they wanted @ 3/$37 mil. Who set the market for closers and were probably considered the comparable to K-Rod? Mariano ($13 mil per), Brad Lidge ($11.5 mil) and Papelbon ($9.5 mil). So was K-Rod a gamble at $11 mil? Yes. Was Minaya crazy for offering a $17 mil option for 2012? Yes. Were the Mets aware of the risk? Of course. DId they do what they had to do to try and field a winner for the following season? Absolutely.
Now…having tons of money doesn’t make it ok to make absurd deals BUT in both cases, the players had various levels of recent success. Were the best available on the market to fill the teams specific needs AND most importantly, allowed them to spend their most available resource which is money. And any time a team can afford to spend money vs spending prospects to obtain a need they should do it 100% of the time as long as they can maintain financial and roster flexibility to make other moves and to respond to unforessen calamaties such as injuries and performance failures. Both teams can do that therefor they can afford to make high risk high reward deals.
From a major market teams stand point it is always less riskier to splurge on an expensive free agent than it is to trade prospects for a major player AND commit a large salary to them as well. If you’re the Yanks and other big market teams you play that game all day and still develop your farm and hope someone emerges that fills your major needs so you DON’T have to keep acquiring free agents. Yanks are almost never going to have access to top 10 draft talents so that’s the game they play. Yanks can replace the money spent on Vazquez and Nick Johnson to sign Cliff Lee, go into 2011 with CC, Lee, Pettite, Hughes and AJ and still have bullets in the chamber in Nova, Noesi, Betances, Banuelos, Brackman, Warren and Phelps honing their skills @ AA/AAA and hopefully ready to step into the rotation to replace Pettite in 2012 and possibly make AJ expendable by 2012/2013 too. AJ stuff hasn’t regressed. He’s a headcase that needs to get straightend out. Hopefully that will happen in 2011.
Well at least you didn’t beat a dead horse
We can’t confirm or deny that as of yet.
Yanks will outdo themselves by signing Lee for 5/$125M. Watch..
Yanks will then sign Greinke for 5/$100M…..Watch.
Yanks will the re-up with Petite one more time for $15M
I actually hope they do.
11 -2 until he got hurt…not too shabby..
Yanks will then have the first and only $100M starting five pitching staff in MLB history
CC…………… $24.3M
Lee………….. $25.0M
Greinke………$20.0M
Brunett………$16.5M
Pettitt………..$15.0M
total…………$100.3M
and they won’t win 95 games in 2011!
LOL
Except they won’t as it’s much more likely to be..
Sabathia- $23
Lee- $23
Pettite- $11.5
Burnet $16.5
HUghes- $3 mil ( 1st year arb)
total $87 mil. Still much higher than most teams but let’s at least attempt to be real honest here.
Look, we both know that TEE isn’t going to let Greinke go to the Red Sox! Even if the Red Sox offer a generous package to the Royals like the one I recently proposed. 🙂
Tampa is not going to win the AL East back to back with a team BA hovering around .250 (with Crawford) so the race next year will be between Boston & NY (which I think is the greatest in sports BTW). The Yanks would rather chance him as their #3 starter than Boston’s.. Hughes, as good as he is, will contribute in the bullpen… He is under team control for another few years..
“total $87 mil. Still much higher than most teams but let’s at least attempt to be real honest here. ”
That’s a gross overstatement. Even the Red Sox, who I think come in second with about $48 million committed to their five man next year, are still only tying up their entire rotation with about what the Yanks are tying up in their top two alone in that scenario. That said, you’re essentially splitting hairs about splitting hairs. When the next closest rotation costs $40 million less than your own, calling someone out for exaggerating about $13 million doesn’t garner much sympathy.
Additionally, I’d note that I find it highly unlikely Lee will sign for less than $25 million at this point. There seems to be a lot more competition for Lee’s services than there was for Sabathia’s. As I recall, the Angels were the only other suitor willing to offer $100 million for Sabathia. This time, though, the Nationals and Rangers have both stated they’ll go all out in an attempt to sign Lee.
I take back the splitting hairs remark. If I’d bothered to check your math, I’d note that you added that up wrong or had a typo, the total comes to $77 million. Still pretty egregious, but also way off from what hawk had suggested.
My bad. Thanks.
The Yankees wont aquire greinke there on his no trade lisT
Money talks…
I think it’s too early to say that the Yanks wouldn’t do it again and/or shouldn’t have done it. Fact #1, they won the World Series with him last year and he pitched 4 games in the playoffs 2 horrible and 2 very, very good. Could someone else have done that, maybe–but we don’t know for sure. We know he did it. While he has been nothing if not inconsistent in his career he had three years in Toronto with an ERA under 4. Only once in his career prior to this year did he give up more hits than IP. Basically, the Yanks knew what they were getting with AJ. What they got helped them win one WS at least. Yes, they’d do it again.
First off let me restate the fact that the Yanks knowingly overpaid for Burnett in terms of cost vs return. Howeevr, the Braves offered Burnett 4/$60 so let’s not act as if the Yanks obscene paid him way over market value. Also, let me restate that the deal looks bad right now as well. Thing is….no one in the Yanks FO is whining about it and so far he’s given the Yanks 1 good year and 1 bad one and he has three more chances to define the overall valie of this deal. The question was, would the Yanks do this deal again. The answer is “Yes”. People say they could’ve gotten the same 2009 production from other pitchers for half the price. Show me. I wen’t thru exhaustive measures to show who was available in the open market who would not have cost the Yanks Hughes, Joba or any of their top propsects. So I feel like most of you are members of the Tea Party right now. You’re against everything but aren’t offering any solutions. So let me turn things around and ask.
“If you were Brian Cashman GM of the Yanks and you’re moving into a new stadium and the team just came off the 1st season in 14 years they didn’t make the playoffs and on paper you had under control….
-Chein Ming Wang coming off an injury.
-Joba Chamberlain who looked promising coming off a good 2008 but also missed a month to injury and would be under an innings limit in 2009.
-Phil Hughes who struggled in 2008 and suffered an injury but was still your best pitching prospect.
-Ian Kennedy who struggled in 2008 and suffered a aneurysm to his arm that kept him out for much of 2008 and could not pitch until late 2009.
Keep in mind that Mike Mussina was going to retire and Andy Pettite had not decided to stay or go until late in the winter of 2008.
So the Yanks had 1 pitcher in Wang who had any type of solid mlb experience. The mandate was to bulster the pitching staff and your free agen pool consisted of..
2008- IP-ERA-KO/BB
Kris Benson PHI (not serious option)
A.J. Burnett TOR (32 yo-221-4.07-231/86)
Paul Byrd BOS (not serious option)
Ryan Dempster CHC (signed early ext w/ Cubs in early November)
Jon Garland LAA (not serious option)
Tom Glavine ATL (retired)
Mike Hampton * ATL (not serious option)
Rich Harden * CHC (not serious option)
Orlando Hernandez NYM (not serious option)
Jason Jennings TEX (not serious option)
Randy Johnson ARZ (not coming back to NY)
Esteban Loaiza CHW (not serious option)
Braden Looper STL (not serious option)
Derek Lowe LAD (35 yo-211-3.24-147/45)
Pedro Martinez NYM (37 yo-109-5.61-87/44)
Mike Mussina NYY (retiring)
Jamie Moyer PHI (not serious option)
Mark Mulder * STL (on DL)
Carl Pavano NYY (not serious option)
Brad Penny * LAD (30 yo-94-6.27-51/42)
Odalis Perez WAS (not serious option)
Oliver Perez NYM (30 yo-194-4.22-180/105)
Andy Pettitte NYY (In house guy)
Mark Prior SD (on DL)
Horacio Ramirez CHW (not serious option)
C.C. Sabathia MIL (obvious choice)
Ben Sheets MIL (30 yo-198-3.09-158/47 but ended year on DL w/ serious injury)
John Smoltz * ATL (41 yo-28-2.57-36/8 but ended year on DL w/ serious injury)
Julian Tavarez ATL (not serious option)
Steve Trachsel BAL (not serious option)
Brett Tomko SD (not serious option)
Claudio Vargas MIL (not serious option)
Randy Wolf HOU (32 yo-190-4.30-162/71)
To Aj’s credit:
-Electric front of rotation stuff.
-Other than Lowe none of the above avg more than 170 IP and had an ERA under 4.00 in the last 3 years.
-He is the only one to distinguish himself as being able to perform in the AL East having beaten the Yanks (3-1, 1.64 in 5 starts in ’08), Sox (2-0, 2.60 in 4 starts in ’08) and Rays (1-2, 3.15 in 3 starts in ’08). He had a lifetime record of 34-17 w/ an ERA of 3.71 vs the Yanks, Red Sox, Rays and Orioles.
-His obvious flaw was he was injury prone. But prior to 2009 he had 5 straight years w/ an ERA under 4.00 and avg of 170 IP and 167 ko from 2004-2008 so when healthy was productive.
So don’t just be a Tea Party candidate who is against everything everyone else does. What would YOU have done to acquire that 2nd/3rd pitcher in the rotation behind CC that didn’t require the trade of prospects (Halladay, etc)?
There should be a character limit on your posts. Like twitter.
Or you could just ignore my posts. Brevity is one of my better charachteristics. It stems from when I was a child and my…..oh wait. My bad.
lol, i enjoy reading your posts, you know what you’re talking about, just lighten up on the words.
Why cant people be this logical when looking at some of the decisions Minaya made in hindsight…
everyone is an expert looking in hindsight…but no one remembers the circumstances surrounding each move.
In foresight AND hindsight, the Jason Bay signing was a bad one, just like the Burnett signing.
ok. so u are omar minaya. ur team was ranked almost dead last in offense. ur owner wont let u eat castillo’s contract and sign O-Dog. ur committed in 3B and SS, u have a young prospect at 1B in Ike Davis. No real good options at Catcher. Or RF. and 2 LF’s.
do u stand pat, tell ur boss to stfu and be patient ? ( makes sense to me )
the Mets have been a GM by committee outfit since Wainwright froze Beltran with that CB. u dont believe me, look at the interview with wally backman where he says he called Jeff Wilpon for a job at the end of the 2009 season. Umm…I thought hiring minor league managers was the GM’s job ( or his subordinate ) , not the COO.
Its not about AJ Burnett, the Yankees have learned not to give high-dollar contracts to anything other than the top free agent available… at least that is what they say.
AJ played up to his contract last year posting a 3.4 WAR. he fell off a cliff this year that i don;t think anyone would have predicted to be this bad especially when he started with like a 1.5 era for a month or more
“i don;t think anyone would have predicted to be this bad especially when he started with like a 1.5 era for a month or more ”
That’s because no one would’ve predicted he’d pitch a full season. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if pitching back to back 200 inning seasons had a lot to do with him completely falling apart this season. Considering he’d never done it before, perhaps his arm simply can’t handle it?
ellisburks said: “He was not a good #2 in 2009. A pitcher with a 4.04ERA with a 1.4WHIP is not good, he is lucky his ERA wasn’t higher especially when giving up 25 hr”.
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So exaclty how many AL SP pitched 200 IP and had a lower ERA than AJ in 2009? Exactly 13. They were F. Hernadez, Grienke, Halladay, Sabathia, Lester, Verlander, E. Jackson, Weaver, Danks, Buehrle, Beckett, Garza and Blackburn. They pitch for a total of 10 different AL teams. Based on those facts are serious when you say that Beckett wasn’t a solid #2 or was, in your words, “not good” in 2009?
Ppl use numbers w/ any context at all. And while I’m not saying AJ’s contract isn’t a bad one you can not evaluate his contract or his performance w/ looking at EVERYTHING in context of what reality is. Starting pitching is difficult to find and is expensive when you find it. As bad as you want to say AJ was in 2009 there were 6 AL teams that ended the year w/o a pitcher that had 200 IP and had an ERA higher than 4.04. So in perspective, AJ was a good #2 in 2009.
Also, how can one have a 4.04 ERA? By pitching 6 innings and allowing 3 runs a game. That’s considered a “quality start”.
Let’s look at how many 2009 starts he either went 6 IP w/ 3 runs allowed or 5 IP w/ 2 or less runs allowed.
That would be 24 of 33 starts. And in his 24 quality starts the Yanks went 19-5. In those 5 losses he allowed a total of 11 runs.
In 2009 if you gave him a win for every start where he went 6 IP and allowed 3 runs or less and a loss every time he DIDN’T go 6 IP or gave up MORE than 3 runs then his record would’ve been 21-12. That means that in 2009 he handed in a quality start 64% of the time and that an excellent number for a #2 starter. AND WHILE I’M NOT COMPARING BURNETT TO GREINKE IN 2009, Greinke had 24 of 33 quality starts (6 IP w/ 3 runs or less) and that works out to 73% quality starts. Obviously those quality starts were better than 6 IP and 3 runs but it provides context. If Greinke is at the apex of his profession and the standard setter then AJ @ 64% as a #2 is in line. Obviously, AJ is getting ace money but it’s what the market bared and the Yanks knew that.
“Obviously, AJ is getting ace money but it’s what the market bared and the Yanks knew that. ”
It’s what the market bared because it’s what the Yankees threw at him. The next highest bidder offered a full 25% less.
You need to learn that there is a vast seperation between “the market” and “the Yankees.” I bet Donald Trump wouldn’t hesitate to spent $50 million on a house he liked, but that doesn’t mean there’s much of a market for said house.
The Braves offerd 1 year less but only $1.5 mil less annualy. AJ wanted someone willing to go 5 years. Please look at it the right way. Big difference between offering him $15 mil annualy vs $18.75 mil annualy which would be 25%. Effectively they offered him 1 year more and that was the difference. To simply say they gave him 25% more w/o putting the deal in perspective is miseading. Also, please stop ignoring the fact that other pitchers that fall into the front/middle classification of starters were offered contracts that set the tone for 2009 FA.
Ppl are absolutely ignorant sometimes. They look at what Santana was given @ 6/137 and then say the Yanks gave Sabathia too much at 7/$161 but in actuality they both earn the same annual amount of $23 mil.
santana also deferred 5 mil per year.
If the Red Sox go back, would they give John Lackey that same deal? Hahaha and that was just the first year of the contract. At least the Yankees have a world series to show for it.
I think maybe get the dart board back out again. Brunettes are hot Burnett is not.