Seven years ago today, Luis Castillo popped a ball up into the stands at Wrigley Field and a fan caught it, even though Moises Alou was right there. The Cubs were five outs away from clinching a World Series berth, but they ended up losing the 'Steve Bartman game' and the 2003 NLCS. Here are your links for Thursday…
- The Twins aren't expected to bring Orlando Hudson back or pick up Nick Punto's $5MM option, according to MLB.com's Kelly Thesier.
- Cesar Izturis, a favorite of Buck Showalter's, seems more likely to return to Baltimore than other Orioles free agents, according to Roch Kubatko of MASNSports.com. Last month, Izturis told MLBTR that he "definitely" wants to return to Baltimore.
- Yankees GM Brian Cashman tells Joel Sherman of the New York Post that he's "comfortable" with the fact that the Yankees didn't complete their near-trade for Cliff Lee. The lefty will take the Yankees on in the ALCS and he figures to be a difference-maker.
- Mark Teixeira told Kristie Ackert of the New York Daily News that he and Alex Rodriguez are happy for Michael Young and the Rangers. Both Teixeira and Rodriguez spent years in Texas before joining the Yankees, but they don't figure to show much mercy in the League Championship Series.
Stop blaming Bartman! Hes not the one who has been sucking for 100 years!
Considering it took two World Series victories to get people to leave Bill Buckner the heck alone (And he at least did more good for the ’86 Sox than bad), Bartman’s going to have a long, unfortunate road ahead of him.
Not to say I don’t agree, it’s not Bartman’s fault the Cubs couldn’t hold on and have been awful for over a century, but with the way the Cubs are run these days, he’ll probably deal with that stigma until the day he dies.
I agree, Buckner would/should be in the HOF except people won’t get over one stupid play.
You are so far off it isn’t funny. HOF for Buckner?!?!?! He of the career OPS of .729 and OPS+ of 99? The highest OPS+ he ever put up in a single season was 130. For comparison’s sake, an actual and deserving HOFer from his era, Mike Schmidt, had a career OPS+ of 153 (54% higher) and, from 1974-1987, never put up an OPS+ lower than 122 (next lowest: 141).
Agreed, not a HOFer, no where close. The real tragedy about Buckner is no one today remembers he was a huge reason the Red Sox were even in the playoffs. September of 1986, Buckner was one of the Sox most productive hitters.
And irony… he was more of a joke outside New England than inside. He got a standing ovation in Fenway at the beginning of the 1987 season
Ironic is right. Billy Buck was a really good player, a dynomite hitter who had real bad knees at the end of his career. In ’86 McNamara would always take him out of the game in the late innings whenever the Sox had a lead for defensive purposes. In game 6, Johhny Mac decided to leave him on the field so he could celebrate as a champion. We all know what happened next.
My father tends to blame Schiraldi and Stanley for the series loss.
Agreed, not a HOFer, no where close. The real tragedy about Buckner is no one today remembers he was a huge reason the Red Sox were even in the playoffs. September of 1986, Buckner was one of the Sox most productive hitters.
And irony… he was more of a joke outside New England than inside. He got a standing ovation in Fenway at the beginning of the 1987 season
Oh yeah, compare him to be biggest brute of his time why don’t you. Buckner was a slap hiiter and not the HR hitter that EVERYONE feared like Schmidt was. Billy Buck also NEVER hardly struck out, was a playe discipline kind of guy who knew exactly how to use his bat and amassed 2700+ hits over his career, some VERY FEW people have ever done, struck out just 450 times in almost 9500 AB’s.He also came back from one of the most horrible early career injuries and totally remade himself as a speedy outfielder and had a stellar career. He has far better overall numbers than many currently in the Hall and can start with Andre Dawsonfrom about the same eras that overlapped.
Big difference is Dawson had power. That said I think Dawson was a good player… but I never thought he was hall worthy.
It’s almost in a way that the writers need a certain set of specifics for enshrinement, or them or the old timers committee will continue to dilute the talent pool that is in the Hall and that is why I am for people like Billy Buck and Jim Kaat to get in.
If they don’t go out and put up a certain set of specifics (like 300 wins, 300 hits, 500 HR) regardless of how many/few seasons they play, then people like Dawson, Rice, Ray Schalk should never get in and go ahead and disband the old timers committee to make certain.
For me, hall entry means you had to be one of the most feared and or legendary players for your time. People like Dawson were just really good players.
Rice, aside from his numbers was a feared and dominant player for most of his career. The issue with him was that he treated the writers everywhere poorly. The fact that he was overshadowed by other great players during that era didn’t help his cause either.The reason it took so long is that ‘Pay backs are a bitch’
It’s almost in a way that the writers need a certain set of specifics for enshrinement, or them or the old timers committee will continue to dilute the talent pool that is in the Hall and that is why I am for people like Billy Buck and Jim Kaat to get in.
If they don’t go out and put up a certain set of specifics (like 300 wins, 300 hits, 500 HR) regardless of how many/few seasons they play, then people like Dawson, Rice, Ray Schalk should never get in and go ahead and disband the old timers committee to make certain.
Which HOFer would you like to compare him to? Because, really, slap-hitting 1B/OF don’t make the Hall, 2700 hits or not. Actually, 61 players have amassed 2700 hits and not all of them are in the hall. Check out the comparable players baseball-reference lists for him: Julio Franco, Buddy Bell, B.J. Surhoff, Jose Cruz, etc. Even the player who is listed as similar that has actually gotten some HOF consideration, Steve Garvey, only got 21.1% of the vote in his final year of eligibility and Garvey’s numbers are decidedly better than Buckner’s. As for Dawson, did you even compare their numbers before making that statement? Because I did, and Dawson’s are definitely superior, even if he was a questionable HOF election. I think your hindsight is painting Buckner in a much better light than history proves he actually was.
You pretty much put a fork in your own argument when you called him a “slap hiiter.”
Thought pretty much explained it when some kind of criteria needs to be maintained for all Hall invitees and until then, a set of players of like ilk should be, but if you want to mention Dawson, might as well take a closer look..OBP, AVG, 2B, base hits all reasonable close, though granted Dawson was a better fielder longer in his career and yeah.. i remember both in the very early days well. The only categories Dawson has a HUGE advantage really are massive 1100K more strike out totals and 250 more HR’s in a few hundred more career AB’s and the 8GG, then Buckner was pretty much a 70-80’s version of a Johnny Damon without the speed after his injury that robbed him of his versatility in the field.It’s interesting how many HOF votes and how long he would have lasted on the ballot anyway without him being the scapegoat back in ’86, or being forced to play 1b even instead of DH when they had someone at the position with even less mobility in Don Baylor.. Today’s version of a David Ortiz in the field at that time.
Edit:
Just wanted to add this and has nothing to do with this discussion really, but Scrap iron actually wore high top cleats for over a week during the ’86 season he was in such pain with his old injury and was still playing 1B at the time also. Something don’t recall and player wearing before, or since. Can you imagine a player in today’s time going to that extreme to remain in a lineup?
I really don’t know why I’m continuing with this lopsided argument, but why not? Your statement about certain criteria determining HOF status didn’t explain anything. No matter what criteria that would be chosen, it would leave deserving players out of the Hall, which is why the subjective method they use will never change.
You brought up Dawson, not me, btw. And, nice job with your comparison, because you just confirmed what I had already learned by looking at their stats. The only one you mentioned that Buckner had an advantage in was that he had fewer strikeouts. Do you really think that makes up for him not measuring up to Dawson in almost all other categories? Even with the strikeouts, Dawson still had the OBP advantage. I also love how you tacitly imply that a few hundred more career ab’s explain away the 250+ HR advantage that Dawson has. To top it off, you call him his era’s Johnny Damon. Can you honestly tell me that you think Damon is a HOFer?
You obviously have a romanticized view of Buckner’s career and we all do that with certain players, but we really should be able to put that aside when considering HOF status. The best comparable is actually the Garvey one I mentioned earlier and Buckner doesn’t even measure up to his career numbers. If Dick Allen isn’t in the Hall, then Buckner isn’t even close.
I still don’t think you are understanding the basic thing was trying to get across and SWP did above.. The talent pool dilution in the HOF and Dawson, Rice, players of that caliber that are in and yeah.. Dick Allen, Garvey, players that were monsters in there own right, you could add Dwight Evans to that list.
It was not just Buckner, or even Jim Kaat saying belong in the Hall, but if they continue to allow 1 player in every year because these writers and especially the old timers committee feel like they are “obliged” to, what is it going to end up with? Dick Allen was as big a beast as Jim Rice ever was for those who remember him, but was thoroughly hated by the press and without wanting to start anything race related, by some fans also in his time. You don’t think some voters on the old timers committee remember that?
I understand what you are saying and we probably are just not communicating exactly here on thoughts, because myself don’t think Buckner truly belongs, exactly like about 1/2 of the people that are in the Hall right now and will be voted in the future as is currently stands.
That’s odd, because the statement you made that started this was, “I agree, Buckner would/should be in the HOF except people won’t get over one stupid play.”
Oh yeah, compare him to be biggest brute of his time why don’t you. Buckner was a slap hiiter and not the HR hitter that EVERYONE feared like Schmidt was. Billy Buck also NEVER hardly struck out, was a playe discipline kind of guy who knew exactly how to use his bat and amassed 2700+ hits over his career, some VERY FEW people have ever done, struck out just 450 times in almost 9500 AB’s.He also came back from one of the most horrible early career injuries and totally remade himself as a speedy outfielder and had a stellar career. He has far better overall numbers than many currently in the Hall and can start with Andre Dawsonfrom about the same eras that overlapped.
You are so far off it isn’t funny. HOF for Buckner?!?!?! He of the career OPS of .729 and OPS+ of 99? The highest OPS+ he ever put up in a single season was 130. For comparison’s sake, an actual and deserving HOFer from his era, Mike Schmidt, had a career OPS+ of 153 (54% higher) and, from 1974-1987, never put up an OPS+ lower than 122 (next lowest: 141).
I agree, Buckner would/should be in the HOF except people won’t get over one stupid play.
Yea…poor guy, I just saw on youtube they did a Bartman parody at Chase Field. He was sitting alone during Kiss Cam and they put on the song Lonely by Akon. haha
Trade Cuddyer for Figgins. Sign Crawford. Outfield of Young, Span and Crawford. I like.
So a team with budget restraints should trade a productive hitter (50+ xtra bshts) who is only owed 1/$10.5 mil for a non-productive guy in Figgins (24 xtra bshts) who is owed 3/$26 to 4/$35? Also, I assume you were kidding about Crawford right?
So a team with budget restraints should trade a productive hitter (50+ xtra bshts) who is only owed 1/$10.5 mil for a non-productive guy in Figgins (24 xtra bshts) who is owed 3/$26 to 4/$35? Also, I assume you were kidding about Crawford right?
next, trade Nick Blackburn for Adam Wainwright, Kevin Slowey for Tim Lincecum, and Anthony Slama for Evan Longoria.
No no no.
No no no.
Please forgive Twins45. Unfortunately, he suffers from this chronic midwestern delirium that thinks the Pohlad’s should just run at an obscene loss for several years to “show they want to win”. They have trouble understanding a billionaire family may actually want a profitable baseball team as well, and that our revenues can’t send us much over $100M.
Ten years ago they talked about just “going and getting Frank Thomas”, five years ago it was “go and get ARod”, and now it’s Lee/Crawford.
Behold my children, an all black outfield.
…Is there a problem with that?
That would be Soul Patrol v3.
Trade Cuddyer for Figgins. Sign Crawford. Outfield of Young, Span and Crawford. I like.
I think the Yanks need to do 3 things this winter:
1) Sign Lee
2) Convince Pettite to stay
3) Bring back Woods
Oddly enough, this would protect the Yanks minor lge arms because there wouldn’t be much that we need to address in terms of blockbuster trades that would cause us to move guys. Can you imagine having Ivan Nova, Dave Phelps, Hector Noesi and DJ Mitchell @ AAA and Andrew Brackman, Dellin Betanecs, Manuel Banuelos and Adam Warren all @ AA next year? Great depth and if they all stay healthy it would be exciting to see how they perform.
Good thoughts, but a bit too optimistic. I don’t think Andy’s coming back, especially if the Yanks get into the WS. He stated that his kids are getting older Blah, Blah… you’ve heard the routine already. Secondly the injury and the age factor is showing that it’s real for him.And the Yanks may not be willing to give him a significant raise, you know he’s not coming back for the same salary next year. Woods is making too much money for a setup-up man and has said he wants to close. Mariano’s coming back for at least 2 yrs, so that’s a moot point. Lee is the big question- Yanks will open the wallet for him. I don’t think Lee wants tp pitch in 90 degree temps in Sept despite whatever Texas offers, but this is a guy many teams are willing to spend in order to get him. As much as I respect, love and root for Andy, I would prefer he retires and opens the spot for one of the kids in the minors. I would wish that Woods would return to the bullpen over Andy returning.
You want Andy to retire and replace him with who? Give Nova/Phelps/Noesi 30 starts next year? Really?
You can re-sign Andy, keep depth, and let the kids get ML experience when someone hits the DL or needs a start skipped.
I don’t WANT Andy to retire, but if he doesn’t come back, I’m Ok with it. Chamberlain, Mitre, Mosely along with any of those Minor leaguers you’ve just mentioned or find a FA as a #5. You don’t keep depth for the sake of stockpiling. It’s to use, there comes a time to put the rookies on the stage not to win triple A championships, but WS crowns.
Wouldn’t you rather hhave Joba in there? He actually has excellent stuff, while Moseley and Mitre throw meatballs over the plate.
If you look past the hype and excuses with Joba, you’ll see what I see with him.The guy’s inconsistant. He was given an opportunity in the spring to win the 5th starter’s spot and lost out. He was given the chance to be Mo’s set-up and lost it, not to Woods but to Robertson, who lost it to Woods.I have no problem in giving him another shot at the #5, but he hasn’t distinguished himself from the other guys, despite having better stuff as you say.
I don’t think Andy will want or demand for more money. He was paid almost $12 mil last year befor incentives. He knows how old he is and I can see him coming back for another $11-$12 mil deal 1 year deal. As long as Lee is signed then I guess I’m coll with just about any other scenario. I just don’t want the Yanks to feel as if they need another vet because honestly, there aren’t too many other FA pitchers worth signing and I don’t want them to feel pressed to trade away prospects for another SP. It would be great to bring in Lee and bring back Pettite because then the kids at AA and AAA can pretty much take their time. Then by 2012 Pettite will almost definetly retire and the Yanks should be loaded with mlb ready starters in the two highest levels.
I don’t think thats how it will turn out, but God do hope you’re right. Sabathia, Hughes,Pettitte, Lee and Burnett is a formidible rotation. I’d put that staff up against the NL all-star team.
Good thoughts, but a bit too optimistic. I don’t think Andy’s coming back, especially if the Yanks get into the WS. He stated that his kids are getting older Blah, Blah… you’ve heard the routine already. Secondly the injury and the age factor is showing that it’s real for him.And the Yanks may not be willing to give him a significant raise, you know he’s not coming back for the same salary next year. Woods is making too much money for a setup-up man and has said he wants to close. Mariano’s coming back for at least 2 yrs, so that’s a moot point. Lee is the big question- Yanks will open the wallet for him. I don’t think Lee wants tp pitch in 90 degree temps in Sept despite whatever Texas offers, but this is a guy many teams are willing to spend in order to get him. As much as I respect, love and root for Andy, I would prefer he retires and opens the spot for one of the kids in the minors. I would wish that Woods would return to the bullpen over Andy returning.
I definitely want the Yankees to sign Lee first and foremost and then worry about Pettitte and Wood. However if Pettitte came back one more year and retired with Posada a rotation of CC, Lee, Pettitte and Hughes throw in Burnett or a young arm would be awesome. Wood would be nice but I hope the Yanks did what they did with CC by offering him a huge contract right out of the gates and then go from there.
I definitely want the Yankees to sign Lee first and foremost and then worry about Pettitte and Wood. However if Pettitte came back one more year and retired with Posada a rotation of CC, Lee, Pettitte and Hughes throw in Burnett or a young arm would be awesome. Wood would be nice but I hope the Yanks did what they did with CC by offering him a huge contract right out of the gates and then go from there.
I don’t think there will be a spot open for Phelps, but I can see him becoming a good set-up man.
I think the Yanks need to do 3 things this winter:
1) Sign Lee
2) Convince Pettite to stay
3) Bring back Woods
Oddly enough, this would protect the Yanks minor lge arms because there wouldn’t be much that we need to address in terms of blockbuster trades that would cause us to move guys. Can you imagine having Ivan Nova, Dave Phelps, Hector Noesi and DJ Mitchell @ AAA and Andrew Brackman, Dellin Betanecs, Manuel Banuelos and Adam Warren all @ AA next year? Great depth and if they all stay healthy it would be exciting to see how they perform.
The Bartman game was 7 years ago today? Jeez, the Championship Series hasn’t even started yet.
The Bartman game was 7 years ago today? Jeez, the Championship Series hasn’t even started yet.
Thanks for ruining my day, Ben. Thanks a lot.
Not picking up Punto’s option??? REALLY??? Cripes – if they did there would be gunfire.
Not picking up Punto’s option??? REALLY??? Cripes – if they did there would be gunfire.
The Twins should bring back the O-Dog. There aren’t good 2B options out there, and Alexi Casilla+Nick Punto+Matt Tolbert should not be starting. Same with J.J. Hardy, excellent middle infield defensive combination, both have pop.
If you just look at the numbers, there is not much difference between plouffe and hardy, and casilla and hudson. Plouffe is projected to hit 10-15 hr’s a year at 6 million less. Hardy was decent in the field, but he was bad at the dish. While I would like to have Hudson back, he is getting up there in age (35 i believe), and its starting to show. I see why dodgers fans nicknamed him slowhud.. I’ve never been a Casilla fan, but he played well this year, and at league minimum with the payroll hike we will have this year, I kind of want to give him a chance.
I think Hardy just had a bad first half because of the wrist injury. He was one of the top defensive SS in baseball and hit .304/.363/.442 in the second half of the season.
I really feel that the wrist thing killed his production in the first half, though I have heard he’s streaky too (from Brewers fans). He very likely will not be THAT good for an entire year, but I don’t believe he’s at the low end of this year’s stats either.
I believe Hardy can return to his 2007/2008 self, minus some power taken away by Target Field.
I believe it would be extremely hard to replace Hardy and it’s mostly because he’s one of the top defensive SS in MLB. That alone is something a team should hang on to because there aren’t a lot of great SS out there floating around. The fact that he has good/great hitting potential only makes him even more valuable to the Twins.
Hardy/Hudson combine for a ballpark range of $10M. And that’s not taking into account Hardy’s arbitration raise and Hudson’s seeking of a multi-year deal.
Spend your money wisely. If you retain an average middle infield, you’re letting the entire bullpen walk (Guerrier, Rausch, Crain) and Pavano.
It’s hard for me to believe that the Mariners proposed deal of Lee for Montero, McAllister and Nova or Eduardo Nunez fell thru because Cashman didn’t want to part with either Nova or Nunez. That doesn’t pass the smell test. Cashman was cool with trading his best prospect in Montero. He was cool with trading McAllister who he later used to get Kearns. But he wanted to hold on to Ivan Nova who may not even make the team next year or Eduardo Nunez who will probably never be more than a super utility guy since Arod, Jeter and Cano will probably be locked in for the next few years? Seems like there’s something missing. I know the M’s had a “jones” for Justin Smoak but what was the real asking price from the Yanks?
Texas winning the ALCS with Cliff Lee going the route in Game 7 would certainly create a very interesting offseason dynamic with regard to his pending free agency.
It would be Castillo to do that.
If it’s between Hudson/Hardy, which I think it will be, it’s better to keep Hardy. I feel Casilla’s ceiling is basically Hudson minus Hudson’s “power.”
For Hardy, we have Plouffe who I don’t believe will be as good as Hardy is. Hardy was one of the top defensive SS in baseball and hit 304/363/442 in the second half of the season. I really feel that the wrist thing killed his production in the first half. He may not be THAT good for an entire year, but I don’t believe he’s at the low end of this year’s stats either.
I believe Hardy can return to his 2007/2008 self, minus some power taken away by Target Field.
If they are not picking up Punto’s option does that mean 2-19 post season Gardy is gone?