Links for Thursday, as we await another day of playoff games. It will be nearly impossible to match the show Roy Halladay put on in his playoff debut last night, but October baseball is always worth following…
- Former Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi told Rob Bradford of WEEI.com that he was surprised not to see better offers for Halladay when the right-hander was on the market last year. "We kept sitting there saying, ‘This is Roy Freaking Halladay! Do people know?’ Not only will you have him for this year, but you’ll have him for next year."
- Dodgers executive De Jon Watson told Tom Krasovic of AOL FanHouse that Zach Lee and James Baldwin are two farmhands to watch. The 2010 draftees are impressing their new organization with their play so far. (Baldwin, the son of former MLB pitcher James Baldwin, is an outfielder.)
- Krasovic also says the Rockies “likely will lose” Jorge de la Rosa to free agency this winter. GM Dan O’Dowd recently said re-signing the left-hander is an offseason priority for the team.
- The Marlins outrighted Brett Carroll, Hector Luna, Mike Rivera, Taylor Tankersley and Tim Wood, which means those five players are no longer on the team’s 40-man roster.
Ricciardi wanted players that you would give up for Pujols, not Halladay.
Best hitter v best pitcher. I remember MLBTR suggesting that the Jays would want an “astronomical” return on Halladay when he was first floated for trade.
It’s not a difficult argument to make that the best pitcher in baseball is more valuable than the best hitter in baseball, especially when said hitter plays 1B. Halladay faces considerably more batters in a season than Pujols has PA. Halladay also was on a more team-friendly contract than Pujols. So I’m not sure what your point is…
The point is pitchers don’t pitch everyday so Halladay could only affect about 30 games a year. Pujols would appear in many more games than Halladay having the chance to affect more games. Hitters are more valuable than pitchers because they play more games.
But hitters can’t single-handedly win games. Roy Halladay can. And he has.
Walk-off homeruns/hits.
…do not single handedly win games. They may end them, but the overall impact does not imply the player actually did anything to “single-handedly” win games. Pitchers who through complete game shutouts do.
Just because a pitcher throws a shutout does not mean they won the game. Pitchers can throw a complete game shutout and lose.
They add far more win probability to a game than a single batter, however.
No they can’t. By definition a complete game shutout is one in which you throw the whole game and give up 0 runs. You can’t pitch the whole game unless the game ends, and the game can’t end if both teams score 0 runs.
My bad was just thinking about complete games.
My bad was just thinking about complete games.
This is just simply not true.
Halladay’s impact over the 35 or so games he starts FAR exceeds any impact that one batter has in the lineup. It’s not even close.
Halladay faced 993 batters this year. That’s 993 opportunities for the offense to score runs against him. Pujols had 700 PA’s all season long. Essentially Halladay had 30% more opportunities than Pujols did (not considering defense) to influence the outcome of the game.
Personally, I would take a dominant pitcher facing 1000 batters over a dominant hitter who gets 700 PA’s.
It’s not a difficult argument to make that the best pitcher in baseball is more valuable than the best hitter in baseball, especially when said hitter plays 1B. Halladay faces considerably more batters in a season than Pujols has PA. Halladay also was on a more team-friendly contract than Pujols. So I’m not sure what your point is…
Ricciardi is a moron…he got a ton of great offers for Halladay that he passed up on. Ultimately the Jays had to settle for a lot less because of him.
For example?
Yeah Scott – were you in Ricciardi’s office when these spectacular offers kept rolling through? Details please.
JP could have had Buccholz plus others for Halladay! He can cry all he wants but theirs a reason he doesn’t have a job!
Was that ever on the table? I seem to remember it being the other way around: the Jays wanted Buckholz, but the Sox were not prepared to give him up. And the Yankees reportedly only offered Montero.
Incidentally, I don’t think Ricciardi is “crying”. I think the implication of his statement is that other teams lost out by underrating Halladay’s impact.
There is a post from this site on July 28, 2009 that disproves that.
“Yahoo’s Gordon Edes reports that the Red Sox offered “at least” Clay Buchholz, Michael Bowden and Ryan Westmoreland to the Blue Jays for Halladay.”
“Jon Heyman tweets an AL executive’s comment that Clay Buchholz, Michael Bowden and Ryan Westmoreland “won’t get it done” to obtain Halladay.”
and why should it have?
Ah, thanks. I was thinking of Casey Kelly.
It was only right, however, that the Yanks or Sox paid an AL East premium to land Halladay. In hindsight, as great as Buckholz would have been, I think such a trade would have made it harder for the Jays to compete over the years to come.
Hindsight sure… but at the time that wouldn’t get it done.
Since when did the reports of some random reporter become fact?
When Red Sox and Yankee fans agree with said random reporter
What other option is there. We rarely hear from the parties themselves what goes on behind closed doors. It’s almost always leaked and subject to being wrong.
We do know that the “rumors” of what was being offered AND what other GM’s were saying indicated that JP overvalued Halladay. You can spin it any way you want but what the Phillies offered wasn’t the best option presented to JP. Throw in the fact that the Jays paid an extra half year of salary (because they didn’t move him at the All-Star break) and it makes the deal look even worse.
You even used the word “rumours” in your sentence (well, the American spelling). You don’t KNOW anything. People can report whatever they want, but there’s absolutely no guarantee that it’s true. In fact, there is absolutely no incentive for the report to have truth in it, as it’s not subject to verification.
This actually isn’t entirely true.
Teams, players, agents float stuff out there ALL THE TIME for strategic reasons. For example, a GM who is wary about his public image or fan backlash will float a trade offer out there as a “rumor” just to gauge fan reaction.
Players ask their agents to float a “rumor” all the time, just to get the rumor out there — for example, if someone like Cliff Lee wanted to play for the Royals (just an example), he’ll ask his agent to float the rumor just so he can be sure that the Royals hear about the possibility. Remember, there are tampering rules in baseball, and players/agents/GMs cannot actively discuss certain things — this is one of the most common ways around it.
This kind of stuff happens ALL of the time, and well-connected reporters are absolutely used to help get this information out there. Yes, sometimes it’s disinformation (hence the word “rumor”), but there are many, many instances in which the information is actually legitimate.
Jays players do get overlooked because they play in Canada, AL East knew very well what Halladay was, but it seemed rest of the ML teams didn’t notice him much.
Ofcourse, now he plays for phillies and look at all the publicity. He was on the cover of SI when he got traded, where were they when he posted 2.7, 2.8 ERA in Toronto consecutive previous years.
East Coast Bia-…wait a minute…
Um what? I remember seeing people making lists back in 2003 and beyond putting Halladay on their top 5 best pitchers list. Everyone knew Halladay.
Everyone KNEW him, but nobody in the USA outside of maybe Yankees n Red Sox fans appreciated just how good Halladay is. He’s the best pitcher of the decade and I wouldn’t count him out of the next one either. He’s going to age well.
Everyone KNEW him, but nobody in the USA outside of maybe Yankees n Red Sox fans appreciated just how good Halladay is. He’s the best pitcher of the decade and I wouldn’t count him out of the next one either. He’s going to age well.
I think it has more to do with the fact that he was on a losing team. You could make comparisons to Zach Greinke when he was having amazing seasons.
I’m a die hard Jays fan, so with that comes my dislike of everything that comes out of JP Riccardi’s mouth.
That being said I think he has a point.
And what is the point of the Pujols vs Halladay thing? are there some people out there still not understanding what Halladay brings to a team and the rest of a pitching staff?
@scott yes examples please?
Look at it this way. If you put a poll on here asking the fans on who they rather have with the #1 overall pick in a draft, I would bet 80-90 percent would say Pujols. If you ask the 30 GM’s which player they rather have, I bet a minimum of 20-23 of them will say they want Pujols. Pujols IS the best player in baseball right. I’m not going to discredit anything Halladay can do, because I have seen it first hand, but Pujols is better.
Well put me in the minority that would say Halladay… well actually I’d say King Felix. Old argument, would you rather a great power arm or a great power hitter? Without meaning to attack Pujols it comes down to a matter of there’s several power hitting first basemen. Meanwhile there’s only a few pitchers who, when you hand them the ball (if they’re on a team with a decent offense), you feel confident about your team’s chances. I remember when Pedro pitched in Boston, there was this sense among Sox fans that the game was pretty much already won. I imagine Phils fans feel the same about Halladay or Mariners fans would feel about King Felix if they had someone on their team would could hit and named something other than Ichiro.
“I’m not going to discredit anything Halladay can do, because I have seen it first hand, but Pujols is better.”
What are you basing this on?
Halladay has put together a 2.44 ERA and eaten up 250 innings. He will now spearhead the Phillies through the playoffs, in all likelihood pitching more than any other SP.
What does Pujols bring to the table that makes him “better” than that? Not denying that Pujols could be more valuable, I’d just like to know the reasoning.
If you compare WAR, WPA, and Value, Pujols takes 2/3. How about this? If someone needs a first baseman more than a pitcher, then they will choose Pujols over Halladay. If a someones needs a pitcher more than a first baseman, then they will choose Halladay. In today’s game, there are more elite pitchers than first baseman, so that’s where I believe Pujols has more value and can come in handy for a team.
FAIL!
There are not more elite pitchers in the majors who do what Halladay does.
Even on some medicore Jays team over the years it was almost a lock to see a win when he pitched. Unless Luke Scott was in the line-up…lol.
You can pitch around Pujols in a Championship Series. You can’t hit around Halladay.
Anyhow it’s a win win situation/argument two different players playing two different roles. not really comparable against each other. They are BOTH the best at their position.
I would even go to argue that Pujols is no longer the “best” hitter in the game at this moment.
Everyone has their own opinion, and I have mine, and I still choose my opinion. The only player comparable out of batters is Longoria, and maybe even Cabrera.
Longoria??? he is no where near the hitter of pujols
sooo basically you just look at WAR and judge your opinion on that….
Brett Gardner must be a top ten player to you then
Comparing Pujols and Halladay is ridiculous. One is a pitcher and one is a hitter, it’s like comparing apples to oranges.
Oranges are still better.
Only if they’re clementines.
Only if they’re clementines.
People are just in awe of Pujols because he is in a class of his own as a hitter. But if you had to stake your life on the outcome of a game? You’d go for the stud ace over the stud hitter.
People are just in awe of Pujols because he is in a class of his own as a hitter. But if you had to stake your life on the outcome of a game? You’d go for the stud ace over the stud hitter.
There are more elite pitchers than first baseman? Sorry, that couldn’t be any more wrong. Guys like Adam Laroche are lower tier 1B who hit 25 HR and drive in 100 runs. It is significantly easier to replace Pujols’ production than Halladay’s.
There are more elite pitchers than first baseman? Sorry, that couldn’t be any more wrong. Guys like Adam Laroche are lower tier 1B who hit 25 HR and drive in 100 runs. It is significantly easier to replace Pujols’ production than Halladay’s.
Votto and Cabrera had better OPS than Pujols this season, there are 2 elite 1B right there. Gonzalez is up there, too, as are Howard and Fielder. Dunn and Teixeira could be considered “elite”, even if Dunn’s defense is questionable. Konerko and Huff had “elite” seasons.
Each team needs to fill 5 rotation spots, only one 1B spot. So there would need to be 5x the number of elite pitchers as elite 1B for your argument to work. So if there are 10 elite 1B, who are the 50 elite starting pitchers?
Votto and Cabrera had better OPS than Pujols this season, there are 2 elite 1B right there. Gonzalez is up there, too, as are Howard and Fielder. Dunn and Teixeira could be considered “elite”, even if Dunn’s defense is questionable. Konerko and Huff had “elite” seasons.
Each team needs to fill 5 rotation spots, only one 1B spot. So there would need to be 5x the number of elite pitchers as elite 1B for your argument to work. So if there are 10 elite 1B, who are the 50 elite starting pitchers?
Jorge De La Rosa: Srs Business
Remember- Roy is 33, and he has a lot of mileage on that arm.
He’s also a big guy with the body type of pitchers who endure into their late 30s.
Roy Halladay can and probably will pitch into his 40s. He puts minimal strain on his arm because of his low release point and his incredible work ethic.
If he had his old delivery, he would never have as much success, and I doubt he would pitch beyond 32 with his old delivery.
you mean the delivery that he set the record for worst ERA in one season? yea I dont think he would have this much success either
And it’s comments like that from JP that shows us why he is no longer a ML general manager. He tried to sell Halladay in a seller’s market where it was the middle of the season and teams in playoff contention were willing to give a little more to help their playoff case. Of course the offseason would bring entirely different offers because teams re-evaluate their talent and are willing to give a little less for a piece that they don’t need (even if they really want it). That, and he was asking teams to give up essentially their entire farm systems for one player, and literally no team took that offer because it was far too high.
If the Phillies had gutted their farm at the time, they would have stood a very good chance of three consecutive World Series rings. No price too high for that, surely.
No they just gutted half of on Lee then the rest of it on Halladay in the winter.
In the case of the Phillies the GM out smarted himself IMO.
I mean they look good now but he gave up more then he might have had to had he just made the right offer last summer, one that ended up being almost identical to past winters trade.
Out of the four prospects that the Phillies traded for Cliff Lee, the only one that MAY have been of some use to them in the future was Jason Knapp, and he’s only 20. Jason Donald, Lou Marson, and Carlos Carrasco were ALL expendable. The same could be said for Michael Taylor, who was blocked in essence by Domonic Brown in the Phillies outfield, and Travis D’arnaud, who was blocked by the emergence of Carlos Ruiz. Kyle Drabek would have looked nice in the fifth starter’s spot in Kyle Kendrick’s stead, but Roy Halladay looks damn good tossing no-hitters in the postseason.
I’m not saying Ruben Amaro is a genius by any stretch of the word, but he was able to orchestrate deals for Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt and Cliff Lee without including Domonic Brown in any of them. That in and of itself seems like a win to me, along with the Phillies being able to make those deals without giving too much, prospect wise, that would have benefitted the team in the coming years. (Kyle Drabek.)
Out of the four prospects that the Phillies traded for Cliff Lee, the only one that MAY have been of some use to them in the future was Jason Knapp, and he’s only 20. Jason Donald, Lou Marson, and Carlos Carrasco were ALL expendable. The same could be said for Michael Taylor, who was blocked in essence by Domonic Brown in the Phillies outfield, and Travis D’arnaud, who was blocked by the emergence of Carlos Ruiz. Kyle Drabek would have looked nice in the fifth starter’s spot in Kyle Kendrick’s stead, but Roy Halladay looks damn good tossing no-hitters in the postseason.
I’m not saying Ruben Amaro is a genius by any stretch of the word, but he was able to orchestrate deals for Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt and Cliff Lee without including Domonic Brown in any of them. That in and of itself seems like a win to me, along with the Phillies being able to make those deals without giving too much, prospect wise, that would have benefitted the team in the coming years. (Kyle Drabek.)
I know you’re bitter because your team didn’t make the playoffs, but they would have if you had Doc. But I guess it’s OK because you kept your overrated prospects. Jesus.
JP is bang on. It remains ridiculous how teams in love with their prospects didn’t want to trade for the best pitcher in baseball. Any time you trade for someone like that, you are going to win the trade, period. I still can’t believe we didn’t get Domonic Brown AND the others.
Exactly.
And it’s quite pathetic how people try to bash JP whenever they can. He did the right thing and teams should have paid a higher price for Baseball.
Only thing JP didn’t do right was saying stuff like Halladay asked for a trade and he is not re-signing with us etc.. seriously you do not say that until he is traded because GM’s will obviously low-ball you. And some of his negotiation tactics were questionable too as I don’t think he really tried to make a 3 or 4 way deal happen and you have a much better possibility of landing betters prospects with that because no team 1 on 1 will trade like 3 or 4 of their top prospects.
Sucks we couldn’t get Brown + Drabek + even with Halladay’s extension and 6 mil cash. So lame…
I agree mostly. Did he really say Halladay asked for the trade? I don’t remember that. If so, that was stupid. We don’t know if he tried to do multi-team deals. Remember, Doc had a NTC with a list of teams he couldn’t be traded to, like Texas for example.
Actually, Kind Felix is the best, but Halladay is second.
You to realize Doc has been doing this for 9 seasons now.
Felix’s track record is all but two seasons.
i think if you were starting a rotation you would have to go with the guy with a track record.
Do you realize that King Felix is already better than Halladay was at 24?
Do you realize that he pitches in Safeco in the pathetic AL West, and that a ton of innings on a pitcher’s arm before he turns 25 is a bad thing, not a good thing?
Do you realize that he pitches in Safeco in the pathetic AL West, and that a ton of innings on a pitcher’s arm before he turns 25 is a bad thing, not a good thing?
The difference between Halladay’s and Hernandez’ ERAs this season was 0.17, which when you’re talking about 2 guys below 2.5 is pretty insignificant.
That’s sort of misleading. Does it really matter? At age 24 Halladay was only into his 3rd season. Felix was very pedestrian in his first 3 seasons w/ ERA’s of 4.52, 3.92 and 3.45. He didn’t become elite until his 4th (09) and 5th season (10).
Felix in his 4th and 5th: 2.49 in 238 IP and 2.27 in 249 IP in the AL West.
Halladay in his 4th and 5th: 2.93 in 239 IP and 3.25 in 266 IP in the AL East.
Do you realize that King Felix is already better than Halladay was at 24?
Bring me some of that you’re smoking when you come down from the clouds.
Bring me some of that you’re smoking when you come down from the clouds.
Depends on the scenario. If, hypothetically, both were available for the 2011 season at the same price, I think you’d have to go with Halladay. If, hypothetically, both were available at the same price for on a 6 year deal, I think you’d have to go with Felix. Just depends…
Depends on the scenario. If, hypothetically, both were available for the 2011 season at the same price, I think you’d have to go with Halladay. If, hypothetically, both were available at the same price for on a 6 year deal, I think you’d have to go with Felix. Just depends…
Actually, Kind Felix is the best, but Halladay is second.
LMFAOSorry FAIL again.
it does seem like Toronto/Canada is overlooked as a smaller-regional market.
Not like Halladay was completely ignored, but did he have the notoriety of say, currently, a Grienke in KC or Felix in Seattle, other smaller-regional pitchers whose teams haven’t been in the playoff spotlight?
(then again, Canada is a smaller market numbers-wise, but the reach is wide. Like Vladdie Guererro before him, every baseball fan from Newfoundland to Vancouver Island knows what a beast Roy Halladay is)
interesting that — other than their usual pissing matches when it comes to acquiring — both the BoSox and Yanks were very, very interested: they’d seen the Doc first-hand enough to know how sick he can be.
Ughh.. this again. Toronto isn’t small market by any stretch of the imagination. It’s only small market in the minds of fans who don’t know or care enough to actually look into the facts.
Ughh.. this again. Toronto isn’t small market by any stretch of the imagination. It’s only small market in the minds of fans who don’t know or care enough to actually look into the facts.
34 million canadians is a “small Market”?
They do play in the 4th largest city in north america and in the largest city with only 1 MLB team (only Chicago,Los Angeles, and New York are larger population wise).
It annoys me how people call the Jays a small Market team
Actually Philadelphia, Dallas, and Houston have a greater population in their metropolitan area. And since when are all 34 million Canadians baseball fans or specifically Blue Jays fans?You also have to remember, it’s not necessarily the size of the city more than it’s attendance/ticket sales. Toronto ranked 25th in the league in attendance.
You also have to remember, however, that part of that is also TV viewing attendance. Toronto games are broadcasted all over Canada, and as such have extremely high numbers.
How many teams do you know that sell out every game after not making the playoffs 17 years in a row? Even the Yankees couldn’t get anyone to go to their games in the late 80’s.
When they actually win Toronto is a HUGE Market. They sold 55,000 tickets for every game and the MLB was also once concidering bringing another team to Toronto. So no Toronto is not a small Market team. Philidelphi, Dallas, and Houston might have more peope in their metropolitan areas BUT unlike any American teams the blue jays are not limited to their city. They have a fan base that spans AN ENTIRE COUNTRY!!!! I can’t see how any team in one American city could possibly have a larger fanbase.
LOL the Yankees couldn’t get people to come last year.
How many teams do you know that sell out every game after not making the playoffs 17 years in a row? Even the Yankees couldn’t get anyone to go to their games in the late 80’s.
When they actually win Toronto is a HUGE Market. They sold 55,000 tickets for every game and the MLB was also once concidering bringing another team to Toronto. So no Toronto is not a small Market team. Philidelphi, Dallas, and Houston might have more peope in their metropolitan areas BUT unlike any American teams the blue jays are not limited to their city. They have a fan base that spans AN ENTIRE COUNTRY!!!! I can’t see how any team in one American city could possibly have a larger fanbase.
that is misleading. they ranked 25th this season in attendance for a large part due to the G-20 summit zapping like 6 home games out of the year. their probably more middle of the pack.
Actually Philadelphia, Dallas, and Houston have a greater population in their metropolitan area. And since when are all 34 million Canadians baseball fans or specifically Blue Jays fans?You also have to remember, it’s not necessarily the size of the city more than it’s attendance/ticket sales. Toronto ranked 25th in the league in attendance.
34 million canadians is a “small Market”?
They do play in the 4th largest city in north america and in the largest city with only 1 MLB team (only Chicago,Los Angeles, and New York are larger population wise).
It annoys me how people call the Jays a small Market team
I think it’s a silly debate but I’ll throw my 2 cents in the arguement of Pujols vs Halladay and who would I want if I could draft one as the #1 overall.
The question is an odd one. If we were playing some fantasy video game or something where “real life” issues didn’t matter like financial commitment vs liabilities the answer would be Halladay beause over the last 5 years he’s proven himself to be the best pitcher in baseball. But in real life where resources need to be allocated the answer would be Pujols by a mile. In the case of Halladay the Yanks, Sox and whomever else had a real interest in him, multiple high end prospects and in the cases of Joba, Hughes and Buccholz, players who had already experienced some mlb success, were being demanded AND a considerable amount of money was needed to extend him. It’s not as if you were trading for Halladay as a guy already under contract and a team friendly amount. So if you were to ask the question “who is less of a health risk”? A 32 yo pitcher with 2,000 IP already or a 30 yo 1B who has never missed any more than 15 games in a season and never had a signifigant injury in his career? While a stud SP is more rare than any offensive player aside from a an Arod in his prime or a Joe Mauer when it relates to money, the pitcher is a way more riskier investment. So in a real life situation, while a GM may salivate more over a SP like Halladay they know that investing $20 mil + annualy to a pitcher is the riskiest thing you can do as a GM. Is there any doubt that Brian Cashman and Reuben Amaro almost faint whenver they see their investment diving for a bunt or seeing a batted ball whiz past their pitcher on the mound? Absolutely. Further, who was a more “safer” draft pick the last two years Strasburg or Harper?
FInally, can we stop refering to Albert Pujols like he’s just another 1B? People are making the same mistake that they do with Aaron when they refer to him as just as another HR hitter. Pujols may go down as the greatest hitter of the last 50 years. Compare him to the greats.
Pujols @ age 30 – .331/.426 w/ 426 dbls, 408 hrs, 1,900 hits and 1,230 RBI and only 646 KO
If you give average numbers over the next 8 years of 25 dbls, 25 hrs, 150 hits and 100 RBI he will have 600 + dbls, 600 + hrs, 3,100 hits and 2,000 + rbi. The only other hitters in history to have those numbers are Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and eventually Alex Rodrigues. If he can maintain an avg over .320 (currently .331) and OBP above .400 (currently .426) then he would be the ONLY person in history w/ .320+ bat, .400 + OBP, 600 + HRS, 3,000 + hits.
As great as Halladay is, in terms of career accomplishments, not just no-no’s, he’s not going to be in elite company w/ respect to the history of the game.