5:09pm: Baker tells John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer that the contract is a two-year extension.
11:29am: It’s not official yet, but Reds manager Dusty Baker will be back next season on a multi-year contract, according to Hal McCoy of the Dayton Daily News. Baker told McCoy that the sides are close to a deal and a confidante of Baker’s said it’s a matter of “dotting I’s and crossing T’s” at this point.
The deal, which will probably be for three seasons, could be announced within the week, but it’s more likely that we’ll hear an official announcement after the postseason. Baker led the Reds to an NL Central title this year in his third season as the team’s manager. Prior to joining the Reds, Baker managed the Cubs for four seasons and led the Giants to the 2002 World Series.
The Reds have been discussing a contract with Baker since offering him an extension in August. The 61-year-old earned over $10MM on his current three-year deal and it would be a surprise to see the Reds offer less for another three-year term.
My favorite Giants manager, glad he’s getting a multi-year deal. Wish the Giants wouldn’t have let him go.
I for one am glad to se him resigned he did a gret job for us this year and has helped the Kids thrive in the majors along with our oher coachs. He is a player’s manger and everyone on our club seems to love playing for him its a good chemisty.
I read i think in Tim’s chat where someone asked about Matt Kemp getting traded to the reds i would love for that to happen and Tim said he could be a good fit fo left field and his attutide could be fixed playing under a players manger under dusty how great would i to have the outfield of kemp stubbs and bruce that would be a great outfield to look foward to for the next 5+ years
I love this. For getting a team to the postseason for the first time in 15 years, he, without a doubt, deserves this extension with hopefully more good seasons to come.
Their young pitchers will regret this in about 2 years when they are under the knife.
Here we go with this dusty killing the arms BS agian. Dusty didnt kill Prior or Woods arm so take your bs somewhere else. They have been very careful with there Arms . More so with leake.
Are you SURE he didn’t kill Prior’s or Wood’s arms? Because, well, he did… He threw Kerry Wood, in his early 20’s, for well over 120 pitches on a regular basis. That is killing your young arms.
And considering that Travis Wood is shorter than 6 ft. tall, he needs to be concerned. Very concerned. Hopefully there is some strict regulation coming from the GM’s booth.
Seriously though it gets old
He’s been with the Reds for 3 years and how many players have went under the knife? Volquez? And he’s back and almost BETTER than he was before.
It didn’t ruin or end Kerry Wood’s career, either. And Mark Prior’s history of injuries with multiple other teams was because of the one year he got injured under Dusty Baker?
This is stupid and nothing more than a myth. Dusty Baker has done perfectly well this year and deserves the extension.
The fact that he’s “almost better than he was before” is no testament to Dusty, but a testament to the development of Tommy John Surgery, which often has those kinds of results these days.
It’s not a myth, but it’s definitely in the past. If there’s a strong organizational focus to not kill these arms, as it appears there is, this will be probably work out okay.
No testament to Dusty at all, just pointing out that he can’t be blamed for “ruining arms” now or in the future when he simply hasn’t.
He just destroyed Aaron Harang’s career. That’s all Dusty did. No big deal. Aces apparently grow on toothpicks.
He did? When did Harang go out with an arm surgery? I must’ve missed that.Last time I checked, Harang is still on this roster, and his problems have been pitch location and other various injuries, not throwing out his arm or an arm injury. The guy throws 90-92 on any given day, which is not very hard for someone to NOT have placement on his pitches.Your argument doesn’t hold ground, and obviously pure opinionated garbage considering the “toothpick” comment. Epic fail.
Anyone who has been paying the slightest bit of attention to the Reds understands that Aaron Harang has never been the same since Dusty had him pitch 4 innings on two days rest in an extra inning game in San Diego in May 2008. Before that needless outing Harang had a 3.50 era in 11 starts. After that outing he started 18 games and had a 5.88 era. Oh yeah, and he spent a stint on the DL … And Harang has been toast ever since. The only “epic fail” here is that Dusty ruined the best pitcher on his staff in a meaningless May game. You may not want to admit that Dusty’s idiotic move had something to do with Harang’s demise, but the evidence suggests otherwise.
Again, he has NEVER went on the DL for arm problems, nor had arm surgery. Dusty pitched him in a game for 4 innings on 2 days rest, so that screws up his location for 3 years? That’s hardly believable.
Location has to do with mechanics and mentality, not destroyed arm. Harang has always thrown around 90-92 miles an hour. Without location he has nothing to provide in the Majors.
There isn’t “evidence” that pitching Aaron Harang 4 innings 3 years ago screwed up his pitch location. I honestly haven’t heard of anything so cheesy in my life. That’s like saying, “Well, Dusty Baker burned up Drew Stubbs batting average because he started batting him first and it made him strike out alot.” C’mon now…it’s not viable evidence, and nothing more than hogwash
Yeah, I get it. You think it’s okay to use your number one pitcher for four innings in a meaningless game in May on 2 days rest. Nothing bad could ever happen from such a brilliant tactical move. Got it.
And yet again you ignore that pitch location has nothing to do with your accusations…
Harang’s problem is pitch location, not a burned arm. Until you understand that, you’ll continue to rant and rave about something very illogical. And BTW, good luck with that.
Actually injury could very easily affect location. Stiffness, development of scar tissue, loss of range of motion for any number of reasons — not necessarily the sort of thing that drops you immediately on the DL, but one that can affect your ability to put your pitches where you want to. Especially if it makes it harder to physically perform your mechanics. When your target is 17″ wide, losing even a fraction of an inch of motion in your delivery could have a large effect.
Then again I also don’t care very much. It’s not my team, my pitcher or my manager in question. *shrugs*
Sure it could. And don’t you think if Harang was actually injured, they would’ve found out earlier than 3 years later? Fact is, if you had a 3 year long nagging injury, especially an arm injury (stiffness, scar tissue), you still wouldn’t be throwing 90-92. You just simply wouldn’t be throwing. It would be the first time I’ve heard of scar tissue forming on a non-injured or surgically repaired arm, or a case of 3-year long stiffness. But hey, that’s just me, and maybe you two know more than I do. Maybe something heavenly divine whispered in your ear and told you Dusty Baker caused it because of 3-year old undetected scar tissue on a non-surgically repaired/non-injured arm.
AGREE AGREE AGREE…….. If you don’t like Baker get over it he is going to be the Reds manager for the next 2 to 3 years. If you don’t like don’t route for the team anymore and stop posting Baker nonsense.
Wow did you watch the Reds at all this season geez… I swear people either don’t pay attention to this current season or they just base everyone on the past.
Dusty does have a history of killing arms going back to his SF days. The Reds have been extremely careful with their young arms though, I think that is more due to Brian Price and the higher ups then anything.
Dusty Baker is a excellent players manager
He however does have some crippling tendencies such as sticking with mediocre to horrible veterans over playing young players, and making poor choices at the top of the order (Taveras/Patterson), he is also been know for some head scratching in game moves.
He does have a history of pitcher abuse, this may be true and it may not be true its up for debate…personally I believe he’s done his part to shorten a few careers, though some of them were also likely doomed from the start. With the Reds the only pitcher I really can see his use having hurt is Harang.
With a quality team and a competent pitching coach that can put in guidelines for use on arms, Dusty Baker is a good manager, though I would prefer him as a bench coach.
You don’t have evidence to support these comments about Baker, Price and the GM. Pretty sure Jocketty is not managing the games day to day.
My evidence is myself having watched the majority of Reds games in Dusty’s time as manager.
And there are more arms then just Prior and Wood that didn’t do well shortly after Dusty. Baker teamed with Dick Poole (whom I believe was his pitching coach for the majority of his managerial jobs) abused a number of arms.
Dusty’s biggest short coming though is day to day management. Running out players like Wily Taveras and Corey Patterson when neither of them deserved to be on a major league roster and then hitting them lead off thus giving them more ABs.
He’s had to go with kids this year mainly because he has no real choice, really other then giving Heisey more playing time over Gomes and starting Janish over Cabrera there really isn’t any major draw back this year. Gomes was very average to horrible pretty much every month outside of May and Cabrera has no range and really a weak bat, Janish at least had the glove.
I still believe Dusty cost the Reds a number of wins, but the players like playing under him and her generally gets the most out of them so that makes up for it, if he has talented players.
Outside of a few managers I don’t feel that any are really much better then a first time manager that signed a bargain basement contract just to get his feet in the door.
Honestly I’d have been fine with the Reds giving the job to Rick Sweet, their AAA manager who also got a lot out of the majority of players on the current Reds ML roster and likely who would have taken the job for a 10th of the cost of Baker.
personally would love to see someone from the 90 team manage us eventually. I liked your reply good honest answers and you didn’t sit there and bash me for disagreeing with you. Thank you for the good reply.
Not really a fan of that idea unless the player has earned it. I wouldn’t want to give the job to say Joe Oliver just because he was part of the last Reds WC team and had qualities as a player that I admired.
I feel a manager should be skilled in three things
Being able to gain the trust/respect of the team. This is very important without it I don’t care how well you know the strategy part of the job, if the team won’t give their all for you, you are likely not going to win.
2. Roster management–they need to know when and where to play players to keep everyone fresh and be willing to make the hard decisions when it comes time to bench a under performing starter. They aren’t paid to make friends with the starting 8 players, 5 starters, and the closer: Their paid to win games. They also need to know the difference between playing a 22 year old top prospect that has nothing left to prove in the minors that is struggling and a veterans that is playing just as poorly with a history of mediocre play at the major league level.
3. Finally you have stats and scouting—Knowing who to pinch hit, knowing who can play what positions without looking like a fool.
I have no major issues with giving a 90’s Red the job but I’d want them to have done some coaching or better managing at some level so I have something to base the higher on. Last thing you want is another Tony Perez screw up.
You mean how he stuck with Drew Stubbs and Jay Bruce when he easily could have been playing veterans? I agree that he sometimes has some questionable in game moves, but this whole knack with him loving veterans over youngsters is completely overblown. So is the big myth that he ruins pitchers arms. The Reds have been extremely careful with Leake, Wood, Chapman and Cueto over the years.
I’m glad you brought that up, because I was going to. Jay Bruce came in guns blazing and had about as good a start to his career as anyone in recent memory. Then he fell off the cliff, missed time to injuries, and Dusty kept playing him. He does look like he’s becoming the player everyone thought he would be. This is the year that he has shown some power against left handers. It was the last thing he needed in his development. I would say Baker can take some credit here.
Baker does understand with Stubbs you take the good with the bad. Too many strikeouts, blah batting average, but he has decent power, speed, and plays an otherworldly center field. He plays most every day too. Not to mention Votto’s non baseball issues last year-Baker and the Reds worked with him and allowed him to work through his issues.
Those guys are all a big part of the Reds future; Dusty really handled them quite well in my opinion. He earned that extension.
I’m glad you brought that up, because I was going to. Jay Bruce came in guns blazing and had about as good a start to his career as anyone in recent memory. Then he fell off the cliff, missed time to injuries, and Dusty kept playing him. He does look like he’s becoming the player everyone thought he would be. This is the year that he has shown some power against left handers. It was the last thing he needed in his development. I would say Baker can take some credit here.
Baker does understand with Stubbs you take the good with the bad. Too many strikeouts, blah batting average, but he has decent power, speed, and plays an otherworldly center field. He plays most every day too. Not to mention Votto’s non baseball issues last year-Baker and the Reds worked with him and allowed him to work through his issues.
Those guys are all a big part of the Reds future; Dusty really handled them quite well in my opinion. He earned that extension.
Dusty Baker after clinching the NL Central “Man, I love this team. I love this city. I love Cincinnati. The whole city is happy. I’m so happy man!”
Welcome back Dusty!
Head to head, Dusty Baker outmanaged Tony LaRussa for the division crown. So faults aside, Baker has proven that a player’s manager geared towards encouraging his players is more effective than a tactical manager who has a history of starting fueds with players (Scott Rolen, Colby Rasmus ring any bells)
Well now that’s a little much to say one instance actually proves anything. If you’d like to change your answer to “…geared towards encouraging his players CAN BE more effective than…” you may before submitting your final answer.
The Reds wanted to get Dusty signed weeks ago and he insisted that he was only focused on the postseason. A week after the Dodgers announce their 2011 manager Dusty signs an extension with the Reds. He may love Cincy but he would have bolted in a second if LA had offered him the managers job. Walt Jocketty deserves more credit for the Reds season than Dusty does. No offense to the Dusty supporters but his history isn’t all that great, he’s not a good tactician and he’s horrible at filling out a lineup card. And yes, he’s an arm burner extraordinaire. Harang and Volquez are obvious casualties and the Reds have some impressive young pitching that haven’t experienced the full Dusty treatment yet. Given the amount of money they’re paying him and their small-market status I think the Reds would have been much better off going with someone less expensive and more competent.
That doesn’t make a bit of sense on Volquez. Volquez barely averaged 7 innings and 100 pitches during his outings. It had absolutely nothing to do with Dusty “burning arms.”
Aaron Harang doesn’t have arm trouble and he never had surgery. The guy simply doesn’t have the placement that he used to have. That’s not Dusty Baker’s fault, nor an indication that he’s “burning arms” as you so eloquently put it.
I don’t remember the exact situation but iirc Dusty brought Harang into an extra inning game a day or two after he had started a game because he had mismanaged the bullpen and Harang hasn’t been the same since. Yeah, that counts against Dusty. I don’t care to go back and look up Volquez pitch count averages but if it was around 100 then that means at times he was below 100 and other times he was above. We could argue pitch counts for days but Volquez was hurt on Dusty’s watch. We’ll never know if it was his fault or not but we can’t deny Dusty was in control of his workloads.
Sure, just the same as Bobby Cox was in control of Tim Hudson’s, and Tony LaRussa was in charge of Chris Carpenter’s. Are those guys arm burners? No, they aren’t. Injuries happen and are essentially un-predictable, no matter which way you want to spin it.
So because of one time in San Diego when Harang pitched an inning, it screwed up his control for 3 years? I have a hard time believing that. Sure, it happened under Dusty’s watch, but what does it have to do with “burning arms?” We’re talking location here, not arm surgery and the end of his career as some have remarked here. Location deals mostly with mechanics and mentality.
The fact is, Dusty rode Volquez hard at the end of 2008, His pitch counts from August 29 to the end of the season were 110, 117, 119, 121, 113, 98 … By September the Reds were out of it and Volquez was racking up more innings than he ever had in his life. Can we blame Dusty for breaking Volquez? That probably wouldn’t be exactly fair. But was Dusty taking care of his ace? Definitely not.
You’re right again! Dusty killed Volquez’s arm (who seems fine now) in early-mid-2009 because of 6 starts at the end of 2008. Yes, because 10 months later, those 6 starts effected him that much to the point where he threw his arm out.
Sounds common sensical enough.
I wouldn’ be surprised if the Dodger job was his first choice but I am also sure he is happy to have the opportunity to work with Jocketty and the young guns in Cincy for the next three years. He and the Reds have shown plenty of patience with the likes of Stubbs, Bruce, Heisy, Massett etc this year and the addition of the vets made the difference this season. Next year there should be a lot of new faces for Dusty to work with since there are fair number of expiring contracts and those guys will probably be gone opening things up for more of the younger guys. I doubt he’ll have Harang, Cordero, and Cabrera back, and maybe not even Gomes, Arroyo, Cairo and Rhodes. This team is going to get younger and younger for awhile.
Really, in the end, it doesn’t matter all that much because, in my opinion, managers don’t matter all that much. GM’s do, but managers… ehh. If you fill out the lineup card properly, don’t kill your rotation, and use your ‘pen and bench well, that’s about all you need to do. There are certainly more than 30 people in the world qualified to be big-league managers, so paying a ton of money for one guys doesn’t make a ton of sense to me.
So if this extension is for a boatload of cash, which it appears it is since he already made $10MM for the last three years, it’s hard to not argue that the money could be better-spent elsewhere. Suffice it to say that I don’t think Baker has been worth 2.5 wins in the last three years for Cincy.
You sure make it sound easy!
You’re leaving out one very important thing, which is the primary job of a Manager — statistical analysis. This goes from zone ratings, righty/lefty matchups, to career statistics versus teams/pitchers/hitters. There’s a lot involved with it, and much more than meets the eye. I think Dusty Baker does a good job at analyzing these sorts of things. Where he may lack in other areas, such as his non-understanding that you don’t need a CF and a middle-infielder as your first 2 spots in the lineup, he does make up for it in other areas.
I have been a big a critic to Dusty Baker than anyone, but the guy has proven me wrong this year. He’s done a great job, which a much smaller payroll than he’s used to having, too.
Sure, but if you’re a guy whose job is in the game of baseball, shouldn’t you be able to analyze this stuff pretty easily? I feel like if you gave me a couple hours every morning with the expected pitcher for the other team and my current roster with their offensive stats and career splits I could hammer out a solid lineup. I just so rarely see managers having tangible effects on how their teams play. Perhaps I’m just a cynic. : )
The primary job of a manager isn’t statistical analysis, especially considering half the managers in baseball don’t consider the stats very much.The primary job of a manager, and the difference between a good one and a bad one, is knowing the value of what he sees. Sometimes that will be the stats, where a certain guy just kills the opposing pitcher and you have to make sure he plays — but that sort of thing, honestly, could be done by a computer. The value is in seeing where the stats should take precedence and where what you’ve seen should.For example, let’s assume that that guy who kills the opposing pitcher is in a horrible funk. Do you play him, hoping it helps him break out? Or do you sit him despite his great numbers because he’s not getting the job done lately? Flip it on its head: What if the guy he would replace in the lineup is scorching hot? What if he’s batting .500 in his last 10 games but is 0-for-7 in his last two? What if your eye tells you a guy plays better defense than his stats does, or if somebody is 0-for-10 but you know he’s about to come out of it because you can see the quality of his at-bats and how hard he’s hitting the ball? THAT is the value of a manager. If all you want is stats and managing days off around the opposing lineups, let a computer generate the lineup. It will do a better job.
So, in other words, what you just said is that it isn’t about statistical analysis, but is. Isn’t that an oxymoron? If a guy is in a funk, you know that by watching him play, and YES…analyzing his statistics for his funk. If a guy is scorching hot, you know that how? By watching him play, AND analyzing his statistics during the hot streak. I mean, how do you really know if a guy is hot or cold without analyzing statistics. I’m not really sure you understand exactly what you just wrote…it was, in fact, an oxy moron.
The primary job of a manager is to know what he’s up against, which mostly involves statistical analysis any which way you can spin it. Statistics don’t lie.
Add in all of the little things, like situational things like you added, that’s what determines a good manager. But, take away the statistical analysis, and you might as well throw a team out the door. Playing people based on “gut instinct” will fail 99.9% of the time.
Dusty Baker and good job at statistical analysis really don’t belong together.
I believe he’s said he hates players that clog the bases, and has routinely hit guys with sub .300 OBPs at the top of the order just because they can run real fast.
How many times does this have to be repeated? Look, it’s understood, and I even said so myself…he doesn’t know who to put in the top 2 spots of the lineup. This year, however, he has done a fine job with Cabrera and Phillips in those two spots with an occasional Drew Stubbs leadoff appearance.
Statistically speaking, if you’ve watched any of the games this year, he’s went with the odds based on statistical analysis.
People continuing to repeat the same stuff is indication that they either haven’t watched the games this year, or don’t care and want to join the hate train into idiotville.
Blah blah blah, Dusty wanted the Dodgers job #1. Show me the proof. Show me ONE quote or interview that is the case. No? thought not, because it doesn’t exist. Let’s see, go home to manage a loser with loser owners or stay with a young winner built to win for years to come and run by one of the best GM’s in baseball. There was no decision to be made, only the particulars of the deal. Really, the audacity and arrogance of Dodger fans knows no bounds. They have a team with a losing record, 5th place finish and owners driving it into the ground and they still think they have a better team than one that just won their division. Totally delusional.
Actually, Dusty is from the west coast and still lives out there. He hasn’t exactly hidden his desire to return there and it was common knowledge that moving on to Chicago was a bit of culture shock to him when he left San Francisco.
Don’t take it as a sign of disrespect to your team and city just because your manager would rather be somewhere else. Dusty is a grown up and is fully capable of preferring one place over another. It doesn’t make your favorite any less of a favorite just because it’s not Dusty’s favorite.
Besides, it’s not like Dusty is the only manager not managing in his ideal situation. It’s no secret that Joe Torre preferred New York over LA. Lou Piniella got himself traded to Tampa Bay from Seattle because he wanted to be closer to home. There’s speculation that Joe Girardi might leave a great situation in NY and go to the Cubs because that’s his hometown. It’s not likely to happen but you don’t see Girardi being mentioned for the managers job in places like Toronto, Arizona, Atlanta or anywhere else because that’s not where he’s from. Dusty played in LA and is a LA kind of guy, there’s no reason not to think that wasn’t his preferred destination.
RIP Aroldis Chapman’s arm.
RIP Phillies — 1st round of the playoffs thanks to Aroldis Chapman, the Reds, and “arm killer” Dusty Baker.
My mind rests at ease knowing the Phillies are 5 – 2 against the Reds this year.
In all seriousness, you have some pretty bad tunnel vision. Reading some of your comments, it looks as though you really believe that Dusty Baker doesn’t have a tendency to overwork his pitchers, especially young pitchers still in development, which is complete ignorance.
Regular seasons means nothing in the playoffs. Teams are 0-0 in the playoffs coming in.
In all seriousness, I haven’t neglected the fact that he has a tendency to overwork his pitchers AT TIMES. He however, doesn’t do it consistently, and hasn’t done it thus far with the Reds. He hasn’t ruined ANYONE’s career with the Reds in 3 years, regardless of the posts some of these other *cough* Cubs and Philly fans *cough* say. Complete ignorance is saying he ruined Volquez in 2009 based on 6 starts at the end of 2008, and Harang (with 3 years of location and consistency problems) based on one appearance in San Diego a few years.
The argument is that he “ruins careers,” which he has not in any sense based on history. Maybe he overworked Mark Prior. But then again, a history of 7-8 years of injuries with different organizations can’t be blamed on him in all fairness, can it? That’s like saying Wayne Krivsky is responsible for all of Josh Hamilton’s success.
I never said that he ruined anyone’s career, or completely ended it. He does have a tendency to use his pitchers so often that they lose effectiveness one way or another, be it to injury, fatigue, or simply showing the rest of the league too much. He may not be completely at fault for their injuries, but he’s put a lot of notable guys through a ton of innings, that although may not have “ended their careers” then, has now. Once again, overworking a pitcher does NOT have to result in injury, but effectiveness.
Guys like Russ Ortiz and Jason Schmidt come to mind. I remember back in the early 2000’s when Dusty managed the Giants, thinking these guys were horses. In all actuality though, they were injury prone starters pushed beyond their limits with the Giants. Each would go on to pitch beyond their years, but each would spend most of that time on the disabled list with arm / fatigue related injuries.
Then you have his stint with the Cubs, where he most notably, effectively wore down the arms of Kerry Wood and Mark Prior. He did. You can say that he can’t be blamed for that or whatever your argument is, but the fact of the matter is that Kerry Wood has been a nagging injury since his time with Dusty, and Mark Prior’s arm basically fell apart from being overworked, and he hasn’t been able to crack the major’s since.
And then we have the Reds, where what I’d like to dub the “Dusty Effect” hasn’t notably taken place. The most notable example someone pointed out was that of Aaron Harang. Once again, why is it assumed that overworking a pitcher must result in an arm injury? Dusty Baker knew that Aaron Harang had a bad back, and ever since he threw him on short rest, it’s been worse.
I’m not sure who said that he ruins careers (because it certainly wasn’t me), but I could effectively make a case for that as well, seeing as the only guy, among all of whom were very good starting pitchers, that I’ve named above that have been able to return to form was Kerry Wood, and I’d hardly call half a season concrete evidence. I’m not even going to touch on that last point because that’s a ridiculous argument. Maybe in your own little world, comparing an alcoholic turned star to a manager who has a tendency to overwork his pitchers makes sense, but not in mine. That argument has 0 leverage.
And regular season shows that my team has been able to effectively neutralize your own. The records may be 0 – 0, but in a little more than a week, it’ll be 3 – 0 Phillies.
Your first mistake was calling Josh Hamilton “an alcoholic turned star.” Alcoholism was the smallest of his problems. Chalk things up like coke fiend, heroin addict…just to name a few. But the point is, Wayne Krivsky Rule-5’d him. If he didn’t…would Hamilton be back having success? You’re using what-if’s and so am I. The only leverage your “own little world” comment has, is that it sounds good. But hey, so does Katy Perry in lingerie, so I digress.
Could it be considered that these starters were better suited to be relievers? All of the pitchers you named were flame-throwers of 95+ mph…and then you have Aaron Harang, whom has NEVER went down with an army injury or arm fatigue like these players. Not once. Let’s also backtrack…Harang is 6’7″, which for a human being is abnormally tall. Randy Johnson had back problems all the time, and it plagued him throughout a good portion of his last 5-6 years in the Majors. Could that also be considered? Well, of course not, because Dusty Baker was his manager and IT MUST MEAN that he ruined his arm because of one outing 3 years ago in San Diego.
The playoffs are a totally different world, my friend. Not the same atmosphere. All the comfort I need to see is the 5 championships my Reds have won…to your Phillies…2!! LOL!!
Whatever. The point was that they are two completely different, uncomparable aspects of the game. I’m sorry I’m not up to date with Josh Hamilton’s sob story, but I have better things to do.
No. That’s like saying that every pitcher who comes out throwing hard is better suited for a bullpen role, and that’s complete idiocy. The only thing that those guys have in common, aside from a few mph difference on their fastballs, is the fact that they were mismanaged. Here’s something to think about. If these guys were better suited for roles in the bullpen… Why didn’t Dusty put them there? Oh, that’s right. It’s because he has this infatuation with young power arms, and a tendency to overwork those arms until they are uneffective. The same could be said for Aaron Harang and his back issues. If Dusty knew he had back issues, why is he throwing so many innings? Why did he start him on two days rest? The fact of the matter is that Dusty Baker is one of, if not THE worst, managers to manage young, electric arms. You have no argument to be considered otherwise.
I know full well what the playoffs are like, since I’ve been there in recent years. Enjoy your division title this year, since it’ll be the last you get in a long while when the Cardinals rebound from an off year.
How are they different? Because one supports your argument and the other does not?
Cueto has pitched 3 years just fine under Baker, and Volquez is rebounding well from his injury. Your argument, while coincidental, is pure myth.
If Harang had back issues, he would be on the shelf. Teams have staffs of trainers, orthopedic surgeons, and other various doctors on staff to evaluate the talent and put them on the shelf. If he was “hurt” as you claim, he would’ve been on the DL and NOT pitching.
You have 2 world series titles, we have 5. Enough said. Oh, that’s right…you went to the playoffs recently after how long of a gap and then got swept in the World Series by the Yankees? The Reds made it to the postseason this on year on HALF the salary the Phillies have. Want to speak about an accomplishment? Try winning back-to-back World Series titles, that of which your team has NEVER done and NEVER will. Good night, sally.
Then explain to me how that actually supports your argument. Tell me how the case with Josh Hamilton relates to Dusty Baker wearing down young arms. It doesn’t. You just can’t get off of your Dusty Baker mancrush for ten minutes to see that you may just be the only person who DOESN’T think that he doesn’t wear down his pitchers. But I’ll listen. Go ahead. Really explain to me how an outfielder, who always had great potential, with off the field issues, relates to a manager wearing down his pitcher’s arms.
The same can be said for picking out one pitcher that’s been healthy. Some guys are the vision of health. For example, people say that Jamie Moyer has a rubber arm. First real injury at the age of 48. The fact that these players are “rebounding well” is not my point. It’s the fact that they should not have to rebound at all. A lot of players who are injured under Dusty Baker could have been easily avoided by reducing their workload, but Dusty has absolutely no talent when it comes to that aspect of the game.
And I wasn’t even the one who said that Harang had been hurting. It’s a well known fact that he is bothered by a bad back. You said so yourself. Not every injury is severe enough to land a player on the DL, especially an injury that does not simply heal with time, like a sore back. It’s a recurring problem that could spring up at any time and limit a player, especially a pitcher. But instead of limiting Harang’s work load, Dusty continues to overwork him. It’s an obvious, observable fact.
So before you post again, make sure you thoroughly read what I’m saying. Your argument has strayed so far from the point that it’s hardly worth responding to. You blatantly ignored my points in my last post, which I’m going to assume is because you have no idea how to respond to them. Instead, you’re going to sit here knocking on the Phillies. I LOL at you. Firstly, you have no idea what you’re talking about. I think it’s safe to assume that you weren’t even alive when the Big Red Machine was dominating the NL. Instead, my team, a team that I watch with my own two eyes, is about to go to their third consecutive World Series. Your team is making the playoffs because the Cardinals had an off year. ‘Nuff said.
Again, it relates perfectly. Wayne Krivsky picked Josh Hamilton in the rule 5 draft, which sparked his career. Can Wayne Krivsky be granted all of Josh Hamilton’s success the same way Dusty Baker can be granted with the arm troubles of Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Jason Schmidt, Aaron Harang, etc? your failure to understand the relation, which is a basic “what if” scenario, isn’t anyone else’s fault but your own. It simply doesn’t support your side of the argument, so you’re going to continue to whine and cry about it.
“And I wasn’t even the one who said that Harang had been hurting. It’s a well known fact that he is bothered by a bad back.”
Woah woah woah. Hold up here, Tonto! He has had a bad back for 3 years and hasn’t spent extensive time on the DL for it? Wasn’t it last year that he has APPENDIX removed? That would cause abdominal, and yes, some BACK PAIN. I guess Dusty Baker caused it to rupture? C’mon now…quit being silly.
“Not every injury is severe enough to land a player on the DL, especially an injury that does not simply heal with time, like a sore back.”
But his injury, as you have indicated, stems back to a 4-inning appearance 3 years ago in San Diego. 3-years of lingering back problems and it hasn’t landed him on the DL with a staff of surgeons, doctors, and trainers at his beckon call? I find it hard to believe. Look, you can sit here and debate with me until you’re blue in the face about this. The fact of the matter is that if his back was hurting as much as you say it is, or was for that matter, he would’ve spent significant time on the disabled list. That, of which, he has not.
“But instead of limiting Harang’s work load, Dusty continues to overwork him. It’s an obvious, observable fact. ”
he continues to overwork him? Ask me how much playing time, or starts he’s made, in the past 3 years. How can you overwork someone who has either been hurt for:
1. Bumping his elbow in the shower (his original injury in 2008)
2. Removal of his appendix
3. Right ankle contusion
4. A demotion to the bullpen
So where’s the back pain again? Get real.
“Your argument has strayed so far from the point that it’s hardly worth responding to. You blatantly ignored my points in my last post, which I’m going to assume is because you have no idea how to respond to them. ”
Where did I ignore your points? I thought I covered them quite well, personally, but hey…I digress. But yet, MY POINTS are soooo far off topic and not worth responding to, but yet here you are…responding to them? Sounds like someone has a man crush. Love you too buddy.
“I think it’s safe to assume that you weren’t even alive when the Big Red Machine was dominating the NL. Instead, my team, a team that I watch with my own two eyes, is about to go to their third consecutive World Series. Your team is making the playoffs because the Cardinals had an off year. ‘Nuff said. ”
Are you mentally retarded? Seriously, I have to know. You’re saying the Phillies, whilst a good team, hasn’t gotten passed the first round of the playoffs (along with everyone else) is a lock this year for the World Series? The Cardinals had an “off year?” They barely had a winning record. It’s safe to say, they have been one of the WORST teams in baseball during the second half of the year…but somehow they had an “off year?” I’m not quick to throw insults, but it’s safe to believe that you are legitimately baseball retarded.
I honestly have no interest in debating with a guy like you. As many times as I explain my points, you will go off on tangents and make up some BS that you think further’s your point. The fact of the matter is that Dusty Baker is a known abuser of young arms, and it seems like everyone outside of Cincy realizes this. If you had something that you actually want to contribute, be my guest. Otherwise, I have better things to do and talk about, so I’ll wait until you have an unbiased point to make.
“I honestly have no interest in debating with a guy like you.”
Then quit replying! It’s that simple.
“As many times as I explain my points, you will go off on tangents and make up some BS that you think further’s your point.”
I got your points. I pointed out, with logic and factual information why they are incorrect accusations.
“The fact of the matter is that Dusty Baker is a known abuser of young arms, and it seems like everyone outside of Cincy realizes this.”
Who? A Cub fan? A Philly fan? The majority of people in San Francisco LOVE Dusty Baker. Even Kerry Wood, as well as Mark Prior, openly admit Dusty had nothing to do with their arm problems.
Any pitching coach, trainer, and orthopedic surgeon will tell you that arm troubles (more often than not) emanate from mechanics. Go ask them…I beg of you! Do a little research for once…I beg of you!
“If you had something that you actually want to contribute, be my guest. Otherwise, I have better things to do and talk about, so I’ll wait until you have an unbiased point to make.”
Then stop replying, for crying out loud.
Actually, reading over your post a second time, I got a bit of a kick out of your sense of humor (or lack there of). Read your last paragraph again and tell me that isn’t the very definition of having an off year. The Reds won a weak Central Division this year, and as I said before, congratulations for that. I have an extreme amount of confidence in my team, and I’ll be the first to admit that. I display our logo proudly, and in my mind, putting them as anything less than winning the World Series would be an insult to them, from me, as a fan. Having the best record in the National League is a testament to that. Until proven otherwise, we are the team to beat. I’m not “baseball retarded.” I’m a loyal, driven fan, and the fact that you expect any less of the Reds makes arguing with a “fan” like yourself all that much more meaningless.
Do you just say things and hope they are true?
A little history for you…
The St. Louis Cardinals have finished with the following records for the last 5 years —
2006 — 83 wins 78 losses (1st place)
2007 — 78 wins 84 losses (3rd place)
2008 — 86 wins 76 losses (4th place)
2009 — 91 wins 71 losses (1st place)
2010 (thus far) — 84 wins 76 losses (2nd place)
I don’t understand your point about an “off year” because quite frankly, it doesn’t make sense. The Reds record this year nearly trumps Cardinals records for the last 5. Apparently, by your logic, they have had an “off year” for the last 3 out of 5 years, all whilst having a $40+ million more a payroll gap that their Central Division rivals, the Reds.
A weak central division? The central division is ALWAYS the weakest division in the NL, so again…your logic, buddy, doesn’t make sense.
I expect less of my Reds because I support the manager and what he has accomplished in Cincinnati thus far? You continue to accuse the guy of misusing young arms, when he simply has not done that in Cincinnati. IT HASN’T HAPPENED!
I’ve been a Cincinnati Reds fan all of my life, which spans 27 years. I was old enough to watch the wire-to-wire 90 series, and remember it quite vividly. I attend 30+ games a year, home and away. I get what you’re saying, but don’t question my fandom, because it has absolutely nothing to do with baseball knowledge. A person with any sort of baseball wisdom would understand and know that, which you apparently lack.
Good night, and good luck in the playoffs.
Regular seasons means nothing in the playoffs. Teams are 0-0 in the playoffs coming in.
In all seriousness, I haven’t neglected the fact that he has a tendency to overwork his pitchers AT TIMES. He however, doesn’t do it consistently, and hasn’t done it thus far with the Reds. He hasn’t ruined ANYONE’s career with the Reds in 3 years, regardless of the posts some of these other *cough* Cubs and Philly fans *cough* say. Complete ignorance is saying he ruined Volquez in 2009 based on 6 starts at the end of 2008, and Harang (with 3 years of location and consistency problems) based on one appearance in San Diego a few years.
The argument is that he “ruins careers,” which he has not in any sense based on history. Maybe he overworked Mark Prior. But then again, a history of 7-8 years of injuries with different organizations can’t be blamed on him in all fairness, can it? That’s like saying Wayne Krivsky is responsible for all of Josh Hamilton’s success.
Throwing a fastball at 105 MPH is going to RIP Chapman’s arm no matter what Baker does or doesn’t do with him.
Occasionally there is the freak of nature that can throw over 100MPH without major arm problems.
Chapman’s 100 looks as effortless as if he were only touching the low 90’s.
Its the slider that I worry about trashing his arm. Pitchers just aren’t meant to throw something that unhittable.
Throwing a fastball at 105 MPH is going to RIP Chapman’s arm no matter what Baker does or doesn’t do with him.
Ok so maybe he isn’t an arm killer but he is no doubt about it a terrible manager in the playoffs.