Nationals GM Mike Rizzo is keeping other front office members in the dark about what's happening, reports Adam Kilgore of the Washington Post, but one thing is clear: Rizzo would need to be overwhelmed to trade Adam Dunn, Josh Willingham, or Matt Capps.
Extension talks with Dunn are at an impasse. Mark Zuckerman of CSNWashington says Dunn is seeking at least four years and more than $15MM per year. There seems to be an assumption that as a Type A free agent, Dunn's club will offer arbitration and the slugger will reject it. Granted Dunn was coming off a worse season, but it should be noted that the Diamondbacks did not offer him arbitration after '08. The White Sox appear to be Dunn's most aggressive suitor, as they're reportedly willing to include Daniel Hudson or Dayan Viciedo in a deal.
Meanwhile, Willingham and Capps are under team control for 2011. Both figure to receive handsome raises as arbitration-eligible players.
There is zero logic to this. Move them all for B or higher prospects in two years the Nats will be scary young and have money.
Jim? Jim Bowden? Is that you?
It’s mildly entertaining to watch Rizzo continually try and play up his trade chips. He’s like a little boy holding a shiny paper clip and demanding you pay him $5 for it. It IS shiny… but it is still a paper clip. You’re going to lose Dunn so you might as well acquire Viciedo or Hudson. If Dunn requires 3 elite prospects, then what do real cornerstone players require? 6?!
Rizzo’s paper clip has hit 38+ HRs for seven consecutive seasons and is on track for an 8th. What kind of paper clips are you using?
Seriously, though, Dunn is one of only three real hitters in the Nats’ lineup – and he’s worth two draft picks if the Nats offer him arbitration and he doesn’t sign. He’s worth enough to the team (and its fanbase) that it really doesn’t make sense to trade him unless they get a huge return.
For that reason, I’d say Rizzo has his price about right – and I’m not surprised that no one is (yet) willing to pay it. Ten days is a long time, however.
Don’t get me wrong… I’d love Dunn as the everyday DH. In place of a Kotsay/Vizquel/Andruw rotation? Dunn, please.
Dunn is the most consistent power source in MLB. He’s not the greatest, but he is reliable for power.
With all that said, I find it hard to believe Viciedo and Hudson wouldn’t get the deal Dunn.
I wouldn’t trade Dunn for Hudson and Viciedo. A guy I think will ultimately be a fourth starter and a guy I ultimately think will be a so-so first baseman. I’d rather try to keep Dunn or take the draft picks.
The Nats could contend as soon as 2012, maybe even next season. If they think they can extend Dunn, it might make sense to hang onto him.
then don’t buy the paper clip. simple as that.
personally, I have no problem with Dunn staying in DC.
the Nationals are not obligated to hand you Dunn for spare parts, regardless of what you guys continually say. We aren’t your farm team. Dunn is one of the better power hitters in the game. if you want him, then pony up. otherwise, walk away.
Keep swinging … I’ll hold ’em while you hit ’em.
When you get tired, we can switch.
🙂
Just like Dunn’s gonna walk away from the Nationals in right around 2 months while the Nationals look for ‘impact players’ in the sandwich round. With or without Dunn their still the worst team in their division.
more ignorance from fans of other teams who expect us to just hand them all of our best players for nothing. get over yourselves.known fact: Dunn does not wish to be traded at all. period. this is on record, straight from the horse’s mouth. He’d rather stay here than be traded and then go back into FA.He’s tired of being traded every season and having to start over in a new city every season. he wants to settle somewhere for a while on a decently long contract.this has been stated by Dunn on multiple occasions throughout the season to our local media. hell, he said it last year when he signed with us. and he hasn’t wavered from it at all. thanks for the condescension and arrogance that adds nothing to the discussion just because you are a spoiled fan who thinks his team is entitled to anything it wants for nothing.
You spent 3 paragraphs to talk about how Dunn wants to be in Washington long term when rumors of a long term extension has spanned from spring training up til right now. Wouldn’t be too confident about Dunn being in DC past this season.
I don’t know why everyone is down on Rizzo for this – if they offer arb and Dunn turns it down, they get two first round picks. So it only makes sense that they get a somewhat established prospect or two solid 1st round caliber prospects.
By the way, I would take Dunn over Fielder.
I hope Rizzo knows what he is doing, because right now he is looking very smart. By holding the line as hard as he can about a Dunn trade he should be able to extract the most value for him. He won’t get what he’s asking for, but it will be better than what most would have thought coming into the year. The Nats should realize that they need to compete in 2012 and the best way to do that is by trading Dunn. The pieces they receive from Dunn should be ready by 2012 while the draft picks they would get for him may not.
There is also the issue of the cost of draft picks, you have to pay to sign them. A 1st and a supplemental pick would probably cost ~$2.5-3M to sign at slightly above slot. The Nats can take this money and use it to put a strong contender around Strasburg and Zimmerman in 2012.
Wheeler/Bowker for Dunn. git-er-dunnn sabes
Wheeler/Bowker for Dunn. git-er-dunnn sabes
I know many of you Nats fans have not seen Dayan Viciedo, but I can tell you in a very short time, this kid has hit some laser beams out of the park, and many people – myself included – are comparing him to a young Frank Thomas.
Don’t get me wrong, if the Sox didn’t need a left handed power bat in the lineup, I would say no way, but Dunn would make the Sox lineup very, very scary. Rizzo would do quite well in acquiring Viciedo, as he has the potential to be a very special hitter-maybe even better than Dunn.
As for his glove, Viciedo is never going to win a gold glove at third or first, but neither is Dunn.
Frank Thomas drew a hundred walks every year and batted .300 for his CAREER. Viciedo has drawn 31 walks in professional baseball. Simmer down.
Oh boy, I see I’ve drawn the ire of a baseball stat bully. : )
Never wrote that Viciedo was the second coming of FT, or that he ever would be…mainly bc of his power to all fields and his good plate discipline so far, I simply wrote that he reminds me (and others here in Chicago) of FT.
Viciedo’s average currently sits at .295 and he has 31 walks in his limited at bats.
Wouldn’t you agree that those are some pretty nice numbers to put up? Or are you the type of person who doesn’t like compare kids to established players?
31 walks over two years. I don’t mind comparing kids to established players, but comparing a one dimensional young player to one of the five best bats of the last twenty years is a different story.
I stand corrected on the 31 walks over two years, but just to clarify…
No disrespect to him, but we are speaking about the one dimensional Frank Thomas who made his money with his bat only, right? Frank was a hitting machine, but by no means would he ever have been mistaken for a five tool player.
He hit for average, drew walks, and hit for power. He was an amazingly well-rounded HITTER. Viciedo is not. Who said anything about the other three tools?
Oh, boy. I see I’ve drawn the ire of a baseball stat bully. 🙂 I was simply stating an opinion that I have and have heard from other people in Chicago. It is impossible to compare the player’s careers, as Frank is hopefully headed to the HOF, and Viciedo is just getting started.
The comparison was made due to Viciedo’s power to all fields and good plate discipline so far.
I would love to see Dunn hitting HRs in Yankee Stadium but the chances of him being traded to them are slim
Not at all … I’d say Phil Hughes, Jesus Montero and Stadium club seats to the entire 2010 postseason should be about right.
[Just kidding, of course; but I’m guessing that’s not far from what Rizzo told Cashman if he did call.]
listen to all these fans of other teams with all this arrogance.”They are the Nats, so they should accept spare crap for all their best players, just because we are *Insert Team* and they are the Nats. How dare they expect decent value for their best players!”
and note, I am not talking about the prospect specifically. but the overall vibe of “Rizzo is stupid for asking for a a good deal for a prominent middle-of-the-order power hitter.”
if Rizzo is “overhyping” Dunn and he’s not worth it, then don’t trade for him and we’ll be more than happy to keep him here.
You can’t blame them; that’s what the Expos/Nats franchise pre-Rizzo had conditioned them to expect. I still think it’s a miracle that the team didn’t sell Alfonso Soriano for a pile of magic beans.
Soriano – yeah too bad we didn’t re-sign him for even more than the Cubs gave up. Zimmermann (the pitcher) was one of the comps for Soriano, so we’re fine with letting him walk.@Bob Loblaw: As for Dunn, the team that acquires him can offer arb and get picks in return if they don’t re-sign. So, in the case of the ChiSox, if they gave up Beckham and Viciedo (for instance), they would get Dunn for the stretch run and either extend him or get a 1st round pick and sandwich pick. I’m in the camp that Rizzo is doing the exact right thing….
Dude, you’re angry!
Its cause Rizzo is not falling in line and behaving like he expects him to.the Nats are supposed to be a farm team to all the contenders and we’re supposed to give up our best hitters easily and without much fuss and for very little.but we’re expecting to get something good in return, how dare the Nats? who gave them the right to expect to make their team better in a trade?
I think the key word in this article is “or”, as in the White Sox are willing to trade Hudson OR Viciedo – it’s not saying that Kenny is willing to trade both to acquire Dunn.
Personally, as a Sox fan, I totally see where Rizzo is coming from and I completely agree with the way he’s handling this. In my opinion, I think Dunn is severely underrated and is never really mentioned in the same breath as Fielder or Howard, which is laughable.
But, without overrating the White Sox prospects, I do think that if they offered Hudson AND Viciedo, that Rizzo would be a fool not to take it. The Sox don’t have a great farm system, but both of those guys have high ceilings and I think that would be a pretty good haul for the Nats. But if the Sox are just offering one of those guys and some fodder and think they are going to get a deal done, I doubt that happens.
Agree with you, at the end of the day the Sox and the Nats just don’t have the matching pieces to work out a trade. Either the Nats get too little or the Sox give up to much. The Sox don’t have the B/B+ prospects to go with a top guy (Hudson or Viciedo) and get a deal done.
I agree with your last point there. Hudson and Viciedo would be a good haul for Dunn.
hell, any combination of Beckham, Hudson, and Viciedo should really get it done.
I like the hard line Rizzo’s taking, but he should definitely trade Willingham. He’s the kind of player who ages poorly and could fall off a cliff any year now. Get value for him while he’s at his peak.
People should realize that Dunn is not necessarily going to get you first round picks, it could be 2nd or 3rd or 4th round picks. Remember the Yankees signed Teixeria, CC, and AJ, well they only had one first round, so who ever had more points in the Ellis Ranking will get you the higher pick. Or if a team is under the 15 mark it becomes a second round pick. So stop saying your trading for Dunn and two first round picks, because your not. Your trading for Dunn and the chance at two first round picks.
One of the picks is in the sandwich round no matter what. The latest that could be is in the low 40s overall.
The Nats are good at finding diamonds in the rough in the draft. Stras and Harper are good examples…
helps to be picking first overall…hahaha! that is truly ridiculous logic
I have never seen someone miss a joke so obvious.
also, if we don’t trade Dunn, forget about arbitration and free agency. we won’t let him walk. book it.
Dunn wants 4/60 from us. I think that if we don’t trade him, we’ll give it to him. or something close.
I think extension talks are at a freeze due to Rizzo fielding trade offers.
LOL at Beckham and Dunn being equal. Really? A second baseman with a .638 OPS is = to a guy headed for another 40-homer season and an OPS of .950? Okay. I think Nats fans have made their point here. The Sox are a poor fit. If Beckham – or Quentin, I guess – isn’t in the mix you don’t have what it takes to get a deal done. Hudson might become a mid-rotation starter. That and a fat Cuban with power isn’t good enough. If these players were so good the Sox wouldn’t be putting them into the deal.
Thank you for being the voice of reason!!!!
(I hope you noted my extreme sarcasm)
The fourth exclamation point gave you away. If you think Hudson + crap prospect is an equal deal for Dunn I could care less about your sarcasm. If you think Gordon Beckham and his sweet .298 OBP is equal to Adam Dunn on any level you’re beyond hopeless. Like everyone else said – go find a lefty power hitter somewhere else.
Your equating a 2 month rental of Adam Dunn to a talented young player with 5 years of team control left. Watching Beckham firsthand his swing path was all out of wack but he’s finally starting to return to the norm and is more than some .298 OBP second basemen.
Hype Dunn any way you want but he’s a very valuable slugger with negative defensive value (DH). There’s a reason teams (Mariners, crazy Nationals) want Beckham despite his “sweet .298 OBP” and they realize their getting a steal while his value is at an all time low. No teams giving you that much talent so if that’s truly is your GM’s demands have fun with crapshoot compensation.
Was in response to poster above claiming Beckham has “more value” than Dunn by himself. That’s laughable. We’re talking about a guy with a .950 OPS who could be popping 40 homers for three or four more years vs. a second baseman with a terrible .638 OPS and the potential to get better.
I like Beckham. I’d do that deal if the Sox threw in another piece. But on no planet is he more valuable than Adam Dunn. What good is five years of control if the player isn’t a guaranteed star? Your deal has to beat the value of two high picks. Nothing I’ve seen from Sox fans comes close. Go look at all the other top 15 OPS players in MLB and ask if you could get one of them for Dan Hudson – a mid-rotation starter ceiling – and a garbage prospect.
I like Adam Dunn but I’m not seeing a fit for two reasons:
1) Even if we were to deal Hudson (apparently a garbage prospect who you’ve likely never seen pitch other than a 35 second highlight reel on mlb.com) Peavy going down has thinned out the starting rotation to the point were without a corresponding move that trade makes little sense.
and more importantly
2) A crazed Rizzo apparently like his fans want guys like Beckham or Quentin in a trade, so apparently were supposed to close one hole in our lineup to open up another. I’m not quite sure how else to explain myself other than a 2 month rental of a player is not worth major league talent unless your speaking about a true Division changing player like Cliff Lee and his 6-7 WAR of production. The majority of the mentally sane outside of Washington thinks these demands are hilarious as if Kenny Williams actually pulled the trigger on some ridiculous trade like this he would likely be greeted with a pink slip in roughly 3-4 months.
and yet the Nats are supposed to gut the middle of their lineup by giving up one of their 2 best hitters for a minor return just to satisfy white sox fans. right? no, its not a fit. and not because Rizzo or Nats fans are “crazed”. The White Sox just can’t afford to give up what it would take to convince Rizzo, who DOESN’T want to trade Dunn, to change his mind.what I don’t understand is why you all seem to think that the Nats are OBLIGATED to trade Dunn in the first place. Williams wants Dunn . Its on him to offer an attractive package to land him. Its not on us to simply give him to you when we don’t have to and don’t really want to in the first place. why is it that people don’t understand this?
I’m a Nats fan, and I know the Nats farm system fairly well. The reason that people feel the Nats are “obligated” to trade Dunn is that we currently have no Top 100 pitching prospects in our minor league system. Dunn wants 4 years 60M bucks. That’s quite a raise. You may believe in Detwiler or Zimmermann as young core pieces but that seems a shaky foundation. They could be 2/3 starter they could be 3/5 starter or they could be not much at all. If we have the option to get a guy who projects as a 3 starter and above by 2012 plus 2 secondary pieces, we really, really need to pull the trigger on that move unless we are 100% sure we are going to pay Dunn’s price and add major additional payroll (Willingham gets a raise in arbitration and we’re going to have to pay somebody to play 2B) for yet another starting pitching if we want to contend.
Nats fans are in the same division as the Braves. The Braves are umpteen games ahead of us and they have a better farm system. The Phillies are ahead of us and they have a black injury cloud circling Citizens Bank. Imagine the horror show the Nats would be if Strasburg or Zimmermann or Willingham or Dunn had been injured for a significant period of time.
The moves are:
1) Resign Dunn and go all in and add payroll so that you are ready to contend in 2012 at the latest.
2) Build your farm system and show incremental progress as we finally undo the damage that Bowden inflicted on our farm system.
Maya’s likely signing indicates it’s largely 1. But most teams would probably go with 2 and I personally would go with 2.
Rizzo apparently like his fans want guys like Beckham or Quentin in a trade, so apparently were supposed to close one hole in our lineup to open up another. I’m not quite sure how else to explain myself other than a 2 month rental of a player is not worth major league talent unless your speaking about a true Division changing player like Cliff Lee and his 6-7 WAR of production. The majority of the mentally sane outside of Washington thinks these demands are hilarious as if Kenny Williams actually pulled the trigger on some ridiculous trade like this he would likely be greeted with a pink slip in roughly 3-4 months.
JMWIV for the win!
I’m sick and tired of seeing other teams fans just expecting the Nats to roll over and give up their good players for crap.
Good for Mike for sticking to his guns with Dunn.
These people that dont get to see White Sox games really shouldnt be commenting on different players’ physiques. Dayan Viciedo is not fat. Stocky yes but fat not hardly. Here is the deal with Adam Dunn in my opinion. Its a win win situation for the Nationals because if they a) trade him— get players for him since hes going into free agency after the season b) offer arbitration and he signs with another team and they get free picks c) re sign him— lock him up longish term and have a power hitting threat for a few years. They come out ahead in all options. With the White Sox not so much the case. If they trade for him they automatically lose pieces of their future. Young pieces too ( Viciedo is only 21). Say they trade for him and best case scenario he helps hit them into the playoffs. Off season begins and to capitalize on Dunn the Sox offer arbitration. There are two ways this turns out. 1) He turns it down, signs with another team and the Sox are stuck with a couple of question marks going into the draft. Remember they already know what kind of players they have in the ones they are trading to Washington. 2) Realizing the market for DH-1B-LF types is not what is was circa Steriod Era, Dunn accepts the offer and plays a season with Chicago at a much higher price on a one year deal than he ultimately is worth. Ive been watching Adam Dunn since his early days with The Reds and I know he is one hell of a home run hitter but The White Sox are going in a more athletic five tool direction and to pay an ungodly amount for a younger Jim Thome is pretty much defeating the purpose. With that said I think The Nationals would be in a much better position to just hold onto Dunn and re sign him to ensure run support for Stephen Strasburg in the future. However if they feel like they absolutely have to trade him then I say offer them a deal of Hudson+Lillibridge+Linebrink and take it or leave it. Do not mortgage the future for a few months of homeruns. Great player yes. Worth more definitely yes. Worth more to the future of the Chicago White Sox NO.
I agree the Sox shouldn’t mortgage their future. I understand the Sox are taking a huge risk for a rental. But that’s your problem. The Nats are either fleecing someone or they’re taking the picks – with I guess an outside shot at re-signing Dunn if the deadline passes. You guys are underestimating Rizzo here. He’s fine with taking the picks. Are you fine with finishing second in the AL Central? The Nats have nothing to lose here. They already stink.
Nats are clearly trying to win sooner rather than later. A totally, totally unexpected move in going hard after the Cuban defector Maya suggests that they do not want to give up pieces that can help them win in the next two years. Rizzo clearly believes he can resign Dunn after the deadline or during the offseason closer to his price than Dunn’s or has overconfidence in his drafting ability if Dunn leaves a la Soriano. I believe the Hudson centered package is something the Nats should be going after if they are committed to applying 20M dollars (the amount of Dunn and Guzman’s salary) at options at any positions (2B, OF, 1B) where they are currently sporting close to replacement or subreplacement options.
The fact is, in my view…that Rizzo does not want to trade Dunn at all, but he’s keeping his options open just in case. and all the talking is coming from other teams.I honestly don’t think Rizzo is out there saying “Dunn is for sale, for this price”.Its more like Williams: ” Hey Mike, you guys willing to trade Dunn? I’ll give you this, and this.” Rizzo: “Not really keen on trading him, but if you give me *insert astronomical price* I might consider it.” Williams to Media: “Man Rizzo is asking way too much for Dunn.” WhiteSox Fans on MLBTR: “RIZZO YOU SUCK, YOU STUPID. GIVE US DUNN FOR NOTHING WE DESERVE HIM AND THE NATS SUCK.”
Maybe if you could both read and comprehend what a solid trade for a team in a division race (i.e. the Sox filling one hole to open another) would be you could see that most Sox fans are laughing at Beckham/Quentin demands over complaining about acquiring Dunn for mid-level prospects.
and that’s fine. keep laughing. we’ll keep Dunn. everyone’s happy.dunno how many times I have to state my belief that Rizzo is simply not intent on trading Dunn, and astronomical demands simply show that Rizzo wants to keep him.You guys are acting like Rizzo called up your GM and said “give me this, this, this and this for Dunn”, and I am not at all convinced that this is how it went down.I think teams inquired, and Rizzo said it’d take an astronomical offer in order to convince me because I DON’T WANT TO TRADE HIM.and you guys are taking this and running with it as if Dunn is being actively shopped, when he is more than likely not.its either terrible reading comprehension on your part, or wishful thinking. maybe a bit of both.the fact is, if the Sox, or any other team, want Dunn, they will have to knock Rizzo’s socks off with their offer in order to make it happen, because Rizzo is more than content to simply keep Dunn.with Dunn the Nationals have a very formidable 3-4-5, with nothing around it. would it be easier to acquire pieces to put around that 3-4-5, or to replace 4 AND get pieces to put around it?
You seriously need to calm down. Don’t take offense because White Sox fans do not want to trade off pieces of their major league ball club for Dunn. Its nothing to do with what “we” expect to get from the Nationals or what “we” think they should take. Its like the expression cutting off your nose to spite your face. If we trade Beckham then we dont have a 2B for the future and essentially wasted a No. 7 or whatever pick on a rental player. A guy like Quentin you don’t just trade either. The White Sox lucked into getting him. Its not that he is better than Dunn or vice versa. But once Dunn walks or whatever happens then we still do not have Quentin. I know you will reply with “Fine dont trade for him we will be happy to keep him”. This makes you sound like a complainer. No one is saying Dunn isnt worth those players. However it would defeat the purpose and open up too many cans of worms to trade off big league players for Dunn. Since the Sox do not have a lot of good farm prospects to match up with Washington I can see this not getting done. “Fine dont trade him we will be happy to keep him”. HAHA
Don’t forget, but you’d be getting more than a rental player. Assuming the team offers him salary arbitration this offseason, he’d either no longer be a rental, or you’d pick up two top picks in compensation for the Type A free agent that Dunn will be. A couple of top picks can ease the sting of giving up a top prospect or two.
I do think this is getting out of hand. As noted in my previous posts, I’m a Nats fan.
I like what windycitywarrior has to say, though. What it probably comes down to is that the White Sox farm system is generally considered among the five worst in baseball (not that the Nats’ farm system is real deep in its own right). What that means to assumed trade negotiations is that the options are extremely limited, which could be a major contributor to the supposed stalemate.
Let’s do this rationally.
Dealing for Dunn from the White Sox perspective: They’re obviously trying to acquire him to make a run at the postseason this year. Breaking up your middle infield and dealing a young (club controlled for five years) player who looked like a star as a rookie but has struggled a bit to build on it in his second season makes little sense. It temporarily fills a hole at DH, but creates one that would presumably be far bigger in the future (as well as this season, which is their entire point in making a trade).
They hit the lottery with Quentin. He was an MVP caliber player in his first season in Chicago, but since suffering an injury late in that season, has struggled to stay healthy (and hasn’t looked quite the same when he’s been healthy). I will say that I would see the logic in the White Sox trading Quentin (compared to Beckham) a lot more, as he’s much further along in the service time department, and they don’t control him for as long. He also doesn’t exactly play a premium defensive position. Still, I don’t think that 3 years of Quentin (again, removing one of their bigger bats from the equation) add up to the two months of Dunn…. even with the draft pick compensation.
The White Sox would love to be able to trade from their farm system depth. The sad fact of the matter is that there’s just not a whole lot there that the Nats would want. You could argue that their two best prospects (discounting Hudson and Viciedo, who are at the big league level) are both untradable at this point in time… one because he’s recovering from a severe ankle injury (Jared Mitchell) and another because he’s illegal to trade until it’s been a full calendar year since he was drafted (Chris Sale).
I tend to trust John Sickels quite a bit, and per Sickels, the White Sox had exactly four prospects who graded above a C+ this season (Hudson B+, Mitchell B, Tyler Flowers B, and Brent Morel B-…. he rated Viciedo a C+). Again, the Nats aren’t particularly deep themselves, with just 7 rated above C+ themselves. Anyway, to those prospects…..
– Morel (and Viciedo, technically, though the book on him is that a switch to 1b would probably suit him well) plays a position where the Nats have their cornerstone offensive player already in place.
– Though reports seem to be better, there were concerns that Mitchell’s ankle injury may cut his career short at one point. He’s entirely too risky to build much of a trade around.
– Flowers’ prospect status has certainly taken a hit this season, as he’s batting just .228/.336/.475 in AAA. Concerns about his ability to stay behind the plate (with his glove) have always been there. Toss in that the Nats’ best offensive prospect (until Bryce Harper signs… Derek Norris) happens to play the same position, and he’s not a real attractive centerpiece for a deal.
Viciedo’s play this season both in Charlotte and in Chicago have certainly boosted his value. Hudson remains a solid B+ type prospect who could be a nice centerpiece in a deal. Other than that, the Nats pretty much have to look at big league level talent if they deal Dunn to the White Sox.
From the Nats’ perspective (sorry… this is getting long): Two key pieces are set in place for the club to try and make a serious run in 2012 or 2013. One of them (Ryan Zimmerman) sees his contract expire in 2013, and the assumption is that the Nationals had better show they’re ready to start winning by the time Zimm’s contract expires.
If they’re unable to do this, then everyone’s predictions that Strasburg and Harper are Nationals only as long as they have to be will come true. If they can add a couple of players that figure to have an impact on contending by 2013 at the latest, then Zimmerman likely re-signs, and the chances of keeping the young superstars that they’ve drafted the past couple of years increase exponentially.
There are other pieces that may contribute (an optimistic ETA for Harper would be late 2012/start of 2013), but not a ton of them. Jordan Zimmermann figures to be a strong contributor in the rotation. Ross Detwiler’s another probable contributor. Ian Desmond is still learning on the job, but the upside is certainly there for him to be a factor. Norris likely joins the club at some point in 2012, while Drew Storen figures to give them a quality young closer. Apart from that, there are a whole lot of question marks…. Can Danny Espinosa take a big step forward? Chris Marrero? Michael Burgess? Most importantly, there’s just not a lot of pitching depth, which is why Hudson should be an absolute must for the Nats to complete a deal with the White Sox.
Simply put, Brent Morel and Tyler Flowers don’t look to be guys that are going to be significant contributors in the near future on a contender. Jared Mitchell, even if he comes back at 100% from his ankle injury, doesn’t look like he’ll necessarily be ready to reach the majors by 2012 or 2013. The options are limited, so Rizzo doesn’t have a lot of guys that he can inquire about.
Generally speaking (from third party sources who are fans of neither team), the assumption has been that Dunn’s value on the trade market should be 2 B level prospects. I certainly don’t disagree with this notion, which is why I continue to say that a deal of Viciedo and Hudson for Dunn would make plenty of sense for both sides in a vacuum.
The Peavy injury drastically reduced the chances of this deal happening, but Rizzo should ABSOLUTELY hold tight if his real stance is that they need a top-flight pitching prospect to be the centerpiece of the deal. It’s his system’s biggest weakness.
Dunn is not worth Beckham…. I’d flip a coin on Quentin, but don’t see how the deal would really make a ton of sense for either side if they swapped Dunn for Quentin straight up. Rizzo’s goal with this deal should be to get Hudson and Viciedo… if he can get an organizational depth guy that he likes as a sleeper down the line, bonus.
There hasn’t been a single post I’ve made where I’ve been angry. your fellow northsiders on the other hand have been ranting and raving about me disagreeing with them like spoiled kids. you’ve been pretty nice about it though.
and yeah, I’ve been complaining. I’m tired of the “Nats suck, so they have to trade any good players to the good teams for nothing ASAP” mentality. and the “Nats suck so they don’t matter just give them whatever” attitude. that’s what I’ve been complaining about.
and no, this trade isn’t going to happen, for the reason I have stated many times here that is conveniently being ignored by everyone in favor of their own arguments about “creating holes” and “your a Nats fan, your stupid” and yadda yadda.
Rizzo doesn’t want to trade Dunn at all and it’d take a ridiculous offer to convince him to change his mind.
Here is a question for all those who think Rizzo is “crazed” and the Nats fans are “stupid”.What would YOU offer for Dunn if you were Kenny Williams. rather than continuing to trade insults, let’s talk about this rationally.I keep hearing about “making another hole in order to fill one” from the White Sox fans, so I would like you to consider what Dunn is worth to Us, compared to what he is worth to you. and consider the hole we would be making by trading him.Keep in mind, that Dunn is1) Our cleanup hitter. 2)Team Leader in H, R, 2B, HR, RBI, SLG, OPS. He is 3rd in BA and 3rd in OBP. 3)He is 2nd in the NL in HR, SLG. 3rd in the NL in OPS. 6th in 2B.considering this, what would you offer that you honestly believe would convince us to trade what is easily our best hitter, the center of our offense, and one of the best power hitters in the National League? what would you demand for the hitter that is most important to your team’s offense?how would we fill the hole that we will open by trading Dunn right now, rather than keeping and extending him?I know that the lowly Nats don’t count in they eyes of you mighty playoff contenders, but you really need to look at this from our perspective if you think we are “crazed” and “overvaluing” Dunn.
How about Paul Konerko, John Danks, Alex Rios and Alexei Ramirez for Adam Dunn? Is THAT reasonable enough for a couple of months of Dunn’s Strikeout/Walk/Homerun? Im just kidding of course. But do you think he is worth creating gigantic holes to fill when he is only under contract through the end of the World Series? That is one reason you won’t be able to get multiple top notch prospects. So you offer him arbitration and he walks and you get the high draft picks. Whoopti do. Now you take a chance on the guys you are drafting. Trust me the Nationals are holding just as many cards in this game as the other teams. No one is going to give up top prospects for a rental player even if he comes with draft picks. I cant believe people are actually using that as a selling point. The draft is a crap shoot. Even more so in baseball than the NFL. You a lot of times are drafting for at least three years down the line. Why would you give up talent that could be in the major leagues by that time for a player that you probably wont be able to sign to an extension. And yes the Nationals dont have to trade him. We know that before you start banging that drum again. I don’t think they have quite the upper hand that you are proposing.
so who? that was my question here, and none of you seem willing to answer it.what is Dunn worth to the White Sox?what would be a fair trade, in your opinion?in my opinion, non-specifically and considering what how important he is to the Nationals, it’d be a High-tier prospect and a ML ready player(note I said MLB ready. not MLB roster). I haven’t said any specific names here.what would you offer and think is fair value for him.I am asking honestly and seriously. and not ranting. Give me names and I’ll look em up.
and Personally, I’d just rather not trade him in the first place. I’d rather keep and extend him. He’s worth a lot more to us in the middle of our lineup, as I have shown above.
annnnd just to reinforce my point that Rizzo does not want to trade Dunn, and the White Sox fans are running the wrong way with this, making it seem like Rizzo is actively shopping him and asking for the moon….
csnwashington.com/07/20/10/Zuckerman-Nats-Not-Acti…
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According to sources familiar with Rizzo’s thinking, the Nationals GM is not looking to deal any of those players despite serious interest from several clubs. When approached by teams about Dunn, Willingham and Capps, Rizzo continues to ask for a significant return, usually big-league-ready players.
“He’s getting plenty of calls about those guys, but he’s asking for a lot back,” one source said. “He’s not the one initiating any of the talks.”
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sounds like something I said earlier in this thread, doesn’t it?
By the way, anyone who thinks that a player like Dunn “clogs the bases” should immediately be banned from watching baseball. No joke. Just give up your right to watch baseball. Being on base is NEVER a bad thing, and Dunn is really good at getting on base. He is also really good at hitting the ball really far. What else would you want from your DH?
Before anyone even mentions Juan Pierre’s 34 stolen bases, please keep in mind that he has a .327 OBP. That’s not very good for someone who leads your team in PAs.
I find it truly amazing that fans of a second rate team in Chicago are talking down to Nats fans. Quit your begging and pony up or just go away. Chicago’s Three Biggest Disasters: The fire. The flood. The sox.
Seriously I cant believe a Washington Nationals fan is talking smack to a team in first place.
What would the Nats want for Dunn? What would be a fair trade for them
Whatever it is it will be painful. It is not like Nationals are shopping or even looking to trade Dunn which was the point of the article.If you want our cleanup hitter, it will cost a pound a flesh. Probably Viciedo, Hudson, and a filler.Enjoy first place while it lasts. 😉 Twins series. Cough. Cough.
This thread has taken on a life of its own. Here is the thing. The White Sox do not have the right pieces to make a fit for the Nationals. Bottom line pure and simple. They could stretch and over/under value players but in reality the match ups are just not there. With that said I would say Brent Lillibridge+ Tyler Flowers+ Scott Linebrink would be enough for a rental player. And before everyone starts hitting me with compensation draft picks and what not and what have you lets just remember that Adam Dunn’s contract expires after the World Series so as of now thats what you get for him. I would say a SS/middle infielder, a catching power hitting prospect and a veteran major league reliever would be enough. Youre not gonna get blue chippers like Montero from the Yankees for a few months of Dunn. Not gonna happen. If the deal gets done in Chicago then thats what it should look like.
Who in their right mind would talk trash about the hottest team in baseball. Seriously people dont pay attention for a month or so and its like they didnt battle their way out of the AL Central cellar.
And Adam Dunn isn’t necessarily a base clogger but when he reaches base a great deal of the time via the walk, then you gotta admit that you dont have a real swift set of legs on first.
I agree with your points. I don’t see it as a fit. To be a fit for the Nats, the Sox would have to give up too much. To be a fit for the Sox, the Nats wouldn’t get enough back.
As a Nats fan, I just wanted to thank you. It’s nice to see some Sox fans that are level headed, making intelligent discussion without resorting to condescension or name calling.
You cant move Dunn for nothing and most teams are offering basically nothing for Dunn or Willingham. Why give a guy with the year Dunn is having for free. Is Dunn the long tern answer here? No. But the Nats problem this year has been consistent starting pitching and middle relief and inconsistent fielding and have a decent home record and are really only poor on the road.
Dunn will be back next year playing first base for the Nationals. They will have an improved outfield and infield defensively. Preferably with prospect Danny Espinosa close enough to start out of ST. Mike Rizzo’s exactly on target, and has never wavered from what he said is his first priority for the team: YOUNG, top-of-the-rotation, power pitchers. Thus Edwin Jackson, thus Yunieski Maya (top right handed pitcher in Cuba in 2009), thus drafting Jordan Zimmermann, thus drafting Stephen Strasburg, thus drafting Sammy Solis and AJ Cole. If this all falls into place, with their current bullpen and the backup they’ve got in Syracuse for it … they hit .500 next year perhaps a bit higher.