The Cliff Lee trade talk started intensifying yesterday, as the Twins, Mets, Yankees, Rangers, Phillies and Tigers now have a new suitor to out-bid: the Rays. Not only are the Rays on the periphery of the Lee sweepstakes, they are ready to add payroll and appear willing to part with B.J. Upton. The Yankees are confident that they can jump in and pry Lee away from their divisional foes, but let's not rule out the Yanks' crosstown rivals. Here is the latest on Cliff Lee, with more rumors to come throughout the day:
- MLB.com's T.R. Sullivan says that the Rangers are working hard to acquire Lee, but nothing is imminent. Texas has plenty of minor league talent to offer, but they don't appear to be willing to move Tanner Scheppers or Martin Perez according to Sullivan. Derek Holland, Blake Beavan, Chris Davis, Justin Smoak, and Jarrod Saltalamacchia could all be fair game. Jeff Wilson of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram says the Mariners "inquired about the availability" of Davis and Saltalamacchia. Righty Alexi Ogando is said to be on the Mariners radar, though "there is some resistance to include him in a deal" on the Rangers' side.
- Morosi expands on his earlier tweet, saying that the Reds and Mariners have exchanged names "in preliminary fashion," though the two sides have yet to exchange firm proposals. One GM called Cincinnati a "sleeper" in the Lee sweepstakes.
- CSNNE.com's Sean McAdam checked on the status of Boston's interest in Lee earlier today, and heard that the asking price was too high (Twitter links). Seattle wants a "stud catcher" close to the bigs, which the Red Sox simply don't have.
- Joe Christensen of the Minneapolis Star Tribune gets the impression that the Mariners aren't close to moving Lee, at least not to the Twins. He was also told that the two sides haven't exchanged official proposals, and that the Ramos-Hicks talk is "pure speculation."
- The Mariners are seeking a “mammoth return” for Lee, according to Jon Paul Morosi and Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. One executive interested in the left-hander said the Mariners made a “crazy ask,” demanding an even better package than Wilson Ramos and Aaron Hicks.
- FOX reports that the Twins offered Ramos and Kevin Slowey for Lee. At the moment, the Twins, Mets, Yankees and Rangers are most actively engaged with the Mariners in trade talks.
- The Mariners are calling teams back and telling them that it will take two blue-chip prospects plus a third young player to acquire Lee, according to Jayson Stark of ESPN.com.
- Two scouts tell Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports that third base prospect Juan Francisco would be the Reds' best trade chip, not Yonder Alonso (Twitter link).
- ESPN.com’s Buster Olney hears that the Yankees are not engaged in trade talks for Lee now. They are confident they could acquire the left-hander, but do not intend to deal for him. Olney says the Twins are the favorites to acquire Lee, followed by the Reds, the Rays, the Mets, the Rangers and the field.
- The Mets officials who have spoken to Joel Sherman of the New York Post don’t seem concerned that the Twins are the perceived frontrunners for Lee. The perception within the game is that the Mariners are leaning more toward scouting than number crunching, and the Mets believe that will work in their favor.
That’s because each NY team thinks they have god’s gifts to baseball.
If you’re not going to number crunch, Minnesota still has the best chance. Ramos=Unbelievable potential, hitting ~.200 Hicks=Even more potential, leads the team in AB’s but hitting ~.265
Or maybe they have confirmation, or something close to it, that Seattle is interested in their players…
I think you have to put the Rays above Minny if Upton really is available, Upton+ C Prospect would easily net Lee I would think
Didn’t they say they wanted major league-ready hitters?
Hicks can come in and steal 24 bags while hitting ~.220 as well.
Why would they want Upton. CF is the one position the Ms have a young, affordable, budding star. And Upton’s attitude issues are ongoing and serious. He’s very talented, true, but …
Hicks is nowhere near big league ready.
That being said, Hicks and Ramos is a really good offer for the Ms. But thats IF the Twins actually did offer that, because supposedly that is a rumor.
And stop with Ramos having unbelievable potential. He’s a good catching prospect is all.
Upton continues to show he’s really good at one thing — underachieving. Just what I want on my club, a guy who doesn’t always hustle and does not play to his potential. Yeah, real bargain there.
Upton continues to show he’s really good at one thing — underachieving. Just what I want on my club, a guy who doesn’t always hustle and does not play to his potential. Yeah, real bargain there.
Its an auction with a reserve (minimum) which rasies two questions: 1/ will the reserve be met? A. seems likely with this many bidders. 2/ What will be the high bid? A. Since the payment is not in cash or other fungible commodities, that is up to the determination of the seller. Stay tuned.
This has to be one of the weirdest posts I’ve read on this site. Just saying…
And yet, in relation to the post, makes absolute sense. Just think about it for a few minutes-it will come to you.
I’m familiar with how auctions work.
Odd way of telling everyone what they already know.
Odd way of telling everyone what they already know.
I think you spend too much time on eBay…
I think you spend too much time on eBay…
I think Philadelphia would ask for RAJ to be put into a mental institute if we end up getting Lee back. Unreal how are name is even listed in the list of teams looking at getting Lee.
No, I think people would just be happy enough to have him back.
With the injury to Peavy, I wonder if the White Sox will get involved in the sweepstakes. I believe if the White Sox created a package of Gavin Floyd, Dayan Viciedo, Tyler Flowers, Dan Hudson they could be the ones to acquire the southpaw. The M’s wanted major league ready hitters. In limited at-bats Viciedo has shown the ability to hit in the Majors at age 21. Flowers has struggled to hit for average in AAA Charlotte, but has shown impressive power. Floyd is relatively young and affordably under team control for a while and there is no denying his natural talent, winning 17 games in ’08. Hudson is likely to be called up to pitch Peavy’s next start. With an 11-4 record and a fine 3.40 ERA Hudson is are best pitching prospect. From the White Sox perspective, I would only make this trade if the M’s gave us the negotiating window and we could lock up Lee for a couple years.
That’s a lot for the White Sox to give up. They need to focus on getting younger position players. As for Upton in the Lee deal, I think that would be a good move for the M’s. A change of scenary is probably what Upton needs now and he has all the potetial in the world. Just because CF is controlled doesn’t mean one of them can’t change OF spots. The Rays also have some nice pieces down in the minors im sure the M’s would love to have. If they could work something out it would be a nice deal for the M’s and a horrible one for the Rays though, because Lee most likely wont resign.
That’s far too much to give up. No one is even sure how much time Peavy will miss, so I don’t see the team panicking. Also, since you seem to think Peavy is seriously hurt (he might be), then our rotation for a while would be: Lee, Buehrle, Danks, Garcia, ???. Don’t tell me you would call up Torres.
I agree with you that its a lot to give up, but say you make the playoffs. Dont you like the sound of Lee, Buehrle, Danks. As for the vacated spot you have no choice but Torres who seems to be a AAAA player, he does so well at AAA but struggles in the majors. I believe the Peavy will be out til September, and I mean if thats like 5 or 6 starts for Torres.
Even if we had a negotiating window, I’m not even sure I’d want to give Lee big money. We have Peavy making ace money, and Danks and Floyd are going to be getting big pay days soon. Anyway, I’m cautious to give up basically the rest of our 30th ranked farm system for a half year rental, when what our biggest need is isn’t starting pitching, it’s a DH/1B type. On top of that we would need to use Torres.
Acquiring Lee does two things for the White Sox. By acquiring Lee, you acquire a true ace and build on the strength of the team starting pitching, as i said before i think Peavy is out til september but just a guess, for all i know he could be back by the end of July. Lee, Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Garcia is a very good staff. The other thing is preventing the Twins or Tigers from acquiring him. I will agree with you that it isnt our most pressing need, but that sounds like a World Series staff.
Lee would probably put us over the top, I agree. And keeping him away from the Tigers and Twins would be great. I wouldn’t mind making this trade if we had a stacked farm system, but we’d be giving up basically everything we have left. I kinda wish we traded AJ before his rights kicked in because Texas would have given us quite a bit if we paid the remainder of the contract. But as we stand now, the farm system is very weak, and I don’t think it’s a good idea to ruin our future just so we can still be like the 4th best team talent-wise in the AL.
I think Adam LaRoche would be a good acquisition. He’s a lefty power bat, and the Dbacks couldn’t expect much in return. At the least he’s an upgrade over Kotsay.
Adam LaRoche doesnt have the average where you want it (.250). But is very productive for that. I wouldnt be opposed to a trade for LaRoche, but Kenny’s last trade with the D’Backs is the another reason why we sport the 30th ranked farm system. Brandon Allen for Tony Pena 🙁
If i had my choice though, Kenny would shop at the Major League’s Farm System aka Pittsburgh Pirates and make a deal for Garret Jones and can platoon in RF 1B and play DH
As for the DH discussion, who are the two guys that are worth picking up and available?
Dunn and Fielder. Dunn really doesnt want to DH and would not be excited joining this club. Fielder’s agent is Boras and wants Teixeira money and would take at least the package i presented for Lee.
Upton has had one good season and a couple good postseason series. Other then his .300 24 home run season THREE YEARS AGO, he has but up numbers comparable to Carlos Gomez. And Upton’s center field ain’t that great, remember he came up as a second basemen. Mariners would be foolish to give up lee for upton and a below average prospect IMO, don’t they have enough attittude problems in the organization with Bradley?
Man, The Rays would be unbeatable with Lee in the rotation.
Seriously, why would anyone center a Lee deal around Bj Upton? The guy went from great to good to lousy to still lousy. If I were the M’s, I would center the deal around Jeremy Hellickson or maybe Jennings.
The Rays wouldn’t do that. Not even for Halladay IMO
The M’s don’t need Upton. The M’s have a full outfield for the foreseeable future (Saunders, Gutierrez, and Ichiro). Saunders is still developing, but the M’s aren’t likely to contend until 2012 anyways. Second and 3rd base are also probably filled, (Ackley and Figgins). Triunfel is hitting pretty well for a SS in AA. He broke his leg last year, and has plummeted on every prospects list. I’m also not sure the M’s will trade for a catcher. The team has a love affair (for some reason) with Adam Moore and Rob Johnson.
I’d like to see the M’s get a first baseman who can hit for power in AAA who will be ready for next year.
“first baseman who can hit for power in AAA who will be ready for next year.”
Dayan Viciedo .290 14HR in AAA .278 1HR with the White Sox in like 30 ABs
Well it’s not AAA, but the Phils have Matt Rizzotti in AA… .360/.415/.640 28XBH (11HR) in 50 games…and he’s obviously blocked in Philly. Rizzotti’s a big dude (6’5″ 235), a classic AL 1B/DH type.
What about Yonder Alonso and Todd Frazier and maybe a AA pitcher for Lee.. What do you think would the Reds be paying too much then??? Replies please.. The Reds would have an amazing rotation then. I don’t even know where they would go with all their starting pitching. I don’t get why the Reds are being mentioned in all this. They need bullpen help with the starting staff doing pretty well and Volquez about to return, just don’t get why we are looking at starters. Though Lee would be an upgrade still.
I said it in the thread yesterday, I think, but I’ll say it again. If Jack Z accepts a package built around the highly overrated, retarded head case that is B.J. Upton, management should ask for his resignation papers that same day.
The Reds needs a legitimate #1 starting ace this year. Volquez and Chapman are not going to contribute much this year. I think a package of Yonder Alonso, Travis Wood and Devin Mesoraco gets it done.
Too much, can’t agree to give up that much for two months of Lee. Only way I give that up is if Lee signs a pre trade extension
Alonso is so-so and blocked. Wood is so-so and blocked. Mesoraco is having his first good pro year, and they just drafted a catcher who should move fast. I’d part with those guys for three months of Lee and two draft picks.
I am all for putting Alonso in this deal. Wood & Meso are better then so-so IMO & have a lot of upside yet to be reached. Wood won’t be blocked next season & Meso is still at least 1 season away from the M/L level … Who knows who will be catching for the Reds by then. So I am not willing to deal either. They can have their pick of Frazier, Francisco, & Valaika in an Alonso deal … but nothing more then that for a rental IMO
Sending Meso would be too much. We are vastly weaker at C than any other position organizationally. Meso is it. Grandal hasnt signed yet and there is no promise he will.
Yep, agreed … Meso, Heisey & Wood are my untouchables
Heisey is looking more and more like a 4th OF to me.
He is great off the bench and in the field, but in games he starts, he doesnt look overly impressive at the plate.
To me, Wood isn’t untouchable but it would have to be for more than 2 months.
My only untouchables: Chapman, Meso, Yorman.
I cant judge Heisey based on a spot start 3 times a month IMO … give him some legit playing time & we’d know a lot more about his ultimate potential.
Grandal will sign. Next year’s draft is much deeper and he’ll be a college senior, which means he’ll be drafted later and have less leverage.
Wood doesn’t have all that much upside, and I didn’t say Mesoraco is only so-so. I said he’s having his first good year in pro ball and the Reds just drafted a catcher who should be expected to move very quickly through the system.
I don’t agree & neither do a lot of people. Wood has a lot of upside. He was lights out at AA & getting to that point at AAA. He has as much potential as Lee had at this point in his career & has put together two better seasons in the minors than Lee ever accomplished. Whether he progresses to Lee’s M/L level of success remains to be seen.
He has as much potential as Lee? Please. I wouldn’t sign a 32 year old like Lee long term, but Wood does not have that upside. Show me someone who thinks he’s more than a 3 and isn’t linked with the Reds in some way. Not to knock the guy. He’s a good prospect. But I think some Reds fans here are too distracted by his numbers. Numbers can be misleading with pitchers. Look at what Yusmeiro Petit was doing in the high minors a few years ago.
Read what I said man … “at the same points in his career” … Lee was a 4th round pick and no one projected him to be a staff ace coming out of the minor leagues … so please, before you jump all over what I said, understand what you are reading. We have no clue how good Wood can be just like no one knew how good Lee was going to be when he came up.
Well, by that logic, it would have been unreasonable to project Lee to turn out like he did back then, and it’s unreasonable to project more for Wood. At the same age, Lee too was knocking on the door of the majors, but was more highly rated, because he had better stuff and scouting reports. Read what I said. Show me someone credible who thinks Wood has more upside than a 3. Just because someone with a superficially similar background turned out better doesn’t mean Wood has that upside.
He was not … Lee had about the same level of production as Wood. Lee was never projected as a top of the line Ace coming up. He developed into it. So the burden is on you to disprove that. I never said Wood was a projected more then a 3 & neither was Lee … that is my point … so I don’t have to provide you with anything … the burden of proof is on you. They had similar numbers all through their minor league careers and Wood was a higher profile player as a 2nd round pick. Whether you like it or not, minor league production & draft position does play a factor in how guys are projected. Superficial .. get real man … its only superficial because it ruins your argument. Either way, I am done discussing this … you aren’t going to change my mind on Wood anymore then I am going to change yours … so lets just drop it.
You keep going back to minor league numbers as if they’re the only piece of the puzzle. As far back as 2002, Baseball America referred to Cliff Lee as one of the top lefthanders in the minors, and that was before his stock took a major uptick. Scouting reports, stuff, projection; those things matter as much as minor league numbers. Yusmeiro Petit and Will Inman would be All-Stars waiting for Wood to join them if that weren’t the case. You’ve never shown me a report from anyone who’s scouted or talked to a scout that watched Wood and thought he was more than a potential mid-rotation starter. And draft position isn’t everything. Ask Greg Reynolds.
You can watch a pitcher for season after season til your blue in the face man. The numbers produced are what analysts look at to figure out what they are going to possibly key word possibly do in the majors geez. Take a deep breath good…
That’s why you have scouts in addition to analysts. A guy with lousy numbers but ace stuff is more likely to be an ace than a guy with so-so stuff and great numbers. And don’t talk to me about deep breaths after you jumped all over me because you misunderstood a point about Francisco.
That’s why you have scouts in addition to analysts. A guy with lousy numbers but ace stuff is more likely to be an ace than a guy with so-so stuff and great numbers. And don’t talk to me about deep breaths after you jumped all over me because you misunderstood a point about Francisco.
You can watch a pitcher for season after season til your blue in the face man. The numbers produced are what analysts look at to figure out what they are going to possibly key word possibly do in the majors geez. Take a deep breath good…
I am all for putting Alonso in this deal. Wood & Meso are better then so-so IMO & have a lot of upside yet to be reached. Wood won’t be blocked next season & Meso is still at least 1 season away from the M/L level … Who knows who will be catching for the Reds by then. So I am not willing to deal either. They can have their pick of Frazier, Francisco, & Valaika in an Alonso deal … but nothing more then that for a rental IMO
Alonso is having a bit of a down year the RBI’s are still there though. Wood So-So. HUmm.. you must not pay much attention to our farm team then. He has been lights out for quite some time. He has great poise too like Mike Leake. The Catcher we just drafted has not been signed from what I know of. So can’t really count him in yet. We don’t know what he will do in the minors too so too early to put your eggs on that catcher.
RBIs aren’t meaningful, Alonso has always had terrible platoon splits, he has no defensive value, he’s blocked on the Reds, and he has had more than a bit of a down year. Wood’s numbers are good, but he’s a polish guy without a ton of upside. Paying attention to numbers isn’t all there is to paying attention to the minors. A number 3 if everything breaks right. That’s not bad, but the Reds have such a wealth of young starters who are more advanced and have more upside that they can easily afford to deal Wood. And as I said above, Mesoraco will definitely sign, unless he’s a complete idiot. Next year’s draft is deeper and he’ll have less leverage, in addition to being drafted later.
Alonso is so-so and blocked. Wood is so-so and blocked. Mesoraco is having his first good pro year, and they just drafted a catcher who should move fast. I’d part with those guys for three months of Lee and two draft picks.
If I am the Reds I don’t do that deal giving up too much Wood is a future starter here. The reds don’t have any other catching prospect and Devin is tearing it up this year.
Who the hell CAN’T acquire Lee?I don’t know why anyone would care if the Yankees think they can or cannot acquire him…Every team in the league could if they offer the right package…Houston have the worst prospects in the league, and they could get him too…(OF) Hunter Pence, (SS) Jiovanni Mier (OF) Jay Austin and (SP) Jordan Lyles, would easily net Lee…
Plus it would be HILARIOUS if the Astros did that.
Yes it would haha
Yes it would haha
Plus it would be HILARIOUS if the Astros did that.
BJ Upton for Cliff Lee is not going to get it done, nor do I think that Upton would be a good fit for the Mariners and that is why I wonder if the Brewers might be also involved in a three way deal. If the Brewers are considering trading Corey Hart (if you believe the rumors), Upton would be a good replacement for him. Could the Mariners package Upton along with a combination of quality prospects (both from their system and what else they get from the Rays) to the Brewers for Fielder and Brett Lawrie?
With Boston seriously hurting right now, and Rays and Yanks both hot on Lee, why is there not even a slight grumble for the Sox getting Lee? In my opinion he is better than Halladay, his K/BB ratio is mindboggling and he’s on pace for another Cy Young if he stays in the AL.
The Sox could dangle Kelly, Kalish and a few other spects. Both those guys are A / A- prospects and we also have some strong B+ spects in Anderson, Rizzo, and Doubrount whose had two solid ML spot starts now.
I know the Red Sox need bullpen help the most and their entire offense seems to be hurt right now, but an average offense while a few key guys heal behind Lester, Lee, Buchholz, a rested Beckett, and Lackey as your number 5…… yeesh
Giving up those guys that you mentioned is a lot for a rental that is not guaranteed to resign. Plus, there is the question, do you want to resign him? He’s 32 now and Theo might want to stay away from a long term deal. I really don’t see how they trade Kalish with Drew wanting to retire after his contract and having Cameron who is in his late 30’s.
Dangling Kalish would be stupid. And Kelly is in his first full season as a pitcher so that would also be stupid. The Red Sox have Doubront and Stolmy Pimental for the future they don’t need Lee right now. Doubrount pitched well in both ML games he’s pitched in and they will be fine for now. Beckett is on track to return after the AS break along with Buchholz. Ellsbury will be back in a week or two also. No need to rush and get a guy like Lee. They need a bat and a BP arm.
They really don’t need a bat unless you mean until their injuries heal. It was the best offense in baseball until half the team got injured. Cameron can’t play everyday and isn’t producing. I think he should have been shut down a couple weeks back, but he might have to be DL’d soon. That means a LF/CF would be helpful.
The Red Sox needs are far greater in the bullpen and in the outfield. Their rotation is decent enough.
Uptons numbers, though limited to around 85 AB’s at Safeco, don’t exactly look promising. I hope there is something more in the works if a deal is made involving TB.
Lee, Lester, Buchholz, Beckett, Lackey… with Dice-K and Wake as spot fill ins.
That sounds like a world series ring to me even with Pittsburgh’s offense on the field.
And Lee isn’t 32 until the last day of August, and you don’t think Theo would be willing to give $20 mil x 4 years to Lee as opposed to the Yanks giving him that? That awful Lackey deal though, on top of the Beckett extension, would certainly hurt those chances though.
I love prospects, and guys like Kalish.. But just look at what happened with not wanting to part with Westmoreland in a Halladay deal. Such a sad thing to see to a brilliant talent, but in the end it’s another example of one of many top prospects who don’t turn out. If the yanks or rays get cliff lee they will win the world series respectively
The only problem is that the Red Sox would kinda need to agree on an extension before/during the trade. If the Yankees want somebody they go and get him and will outbid anybody. They reason this won’t get done is probably because of Lackey’s contract.
Not quite sure how Lee guarantees one a WS ring. (philly?)
i think the yankees should wait untill cliff lee is a free agent and take care of there needs that they have now like the bench or bullpen and get a wiggington for the bench or a octovio dotel for the bullpen.
Detroit could really make a strong play for Lee, or just drive up the price for the Twins. The Tigers have a few major league ready hitters in their farm system (especially outfielders) that are blocked by the likes of Boesch, Jackson, and Damon.
Damon isn’t blocking anyone. He’s not a long-term solution.
For this year, nobody is taking Damon’s job.
Sure. But if you’re talking about trading someone out of your farm system, being “blocked” typically means the guys in front of him are going to be around for more than 3 months.
Damon isn’t blocking anyone. He’s not a long-term solution.
Detroit could really make a strong play for Lee, or just drive up the price for the Twins. The Tigers have a few major league ready hitters in their farm system (especially outfielders) that are blocked by the likes of Boesch, Jackson, and Damon.
Francisco is the Reds’ best trade chip? That makes their chances look worse if you believe it.
sorry you are incorrect there are much better chips the reds have to play with than Fransisco. Geez
That’s my point, genius. I was responding to Morosi saying he’s their best trade chip. You know, in the post we’re commenting on.
Francisco is the Reds’ best trade chip? That makes their chances look worse if you believe it.
2 blue chips and 3rd young player to acquire a 3 or 4 month rental for a player with no interest in staying in Seattle. To high a price imho.
I agree, I was wondering why more people were not thinking the same. Lee is good, very good in fact. But he is still only one player, and a player that can only play every 5 (possibly 4) days.
In the style of Sophia from the Golden Girls:
“Picture it. Milwaukee. 2008. There he was-CC Sabathia.”
When a precedent is set, it is usually followed.
Seattle’s demands are getting ridiculous. One blue chipper is fair with another young player. But two? For a rental? I’ll pass.
I agree 1 top prospect and then a couple more good prospects with decent upside was the price for CC a couple years ago, now Seattle wants 2 top prospects plus another player seems like they may be overplaying their hand.
You have to distinguish the talk from the real expectations. Jack Zduriencik has shown himself to be an open minded, clever negotiator who doesn’t burn bridges and finds ways to get pieces of a puzzle to fit. (Look at the J. J. Putz three-way for example.) You can bet he will figure out how to get the best possible return on Lee that he can. He’s not going to alienate the interested by being totally off-putting in the negotiations.
Well I don’t know how true that is given the statement from the executive above that called their offer a “crazy ask”. Going around asking each team for the moon is going to alienate some GM’s. Jack-Z has made some good moves and some questionable ones to this point, this Lee deal will certainly be one of his most important ones.
I agree 1 top prospect and then a couple more good prospects with decent upside was the price for CC a couple years ago, now Seattle wants 2 top prospects plus another player seems like they may be overplaying their hand.
It’s all gamesmanship. You submit a low offer, Mariners ask for the moon, you raise your offer a little, they ask for a little less, etc. I know it’s obvious, just saying that because they’re asking for a ridiculous haul doesn’t mean they expect to get it.
It’s all gamesmanship. You submit a low offer, Mariners ask for the moon, you raise your offer a little, they ask for a little less, etc. I know it’s obvious, just saying that because they’re asking for a ridiculous haul doesn’t mean they expect to get it.
Seattle’s demands are getting ridiculous. One blue chipper is fair with another young player. But two? For a rental? I’ll pass.
OH NO! The Rays are willing to deal Upton for Lee? The other teams are screwed!
Really….really!? Upton isn’t that great and has been declining every year. His attitude is crap and he doesn’t seem to care. I think his offense would just disappear more in Safeco.
It was rumored that the Twins wanted Upton in the Garza/Bartlett deal instead of Young. Boy, I think we really dodged a bullet. Upton is declining while Young is on the rise (and I’m one of the few who believed Delmon would get better). Imagine the crying from some Twins fans if we had BJ instead of Delmon right now.
If the Twins are truely offering Ramos and Slowey I think thats a good offer for the Mariners, Ramos is or is near MLB ready and Slowey has proven a decent middle of the rotation guy who would do well in Seattle since he does give up a decent number of fly balls. If the Twins toss in one or two mid level guys I think thats the deal.
Where is the impact bat that the M’s are looking to get in that deal? Ramos? Sorry he does not look like a future impact bat. Maybe the M’s are asking a lot. But Jack Z is not just going to give Lee, arguably the current best pitcher in baseball away. Rental or not, whatever contending team gets Lee the chances of them going deep in the playoffs and possibly WS go up significantly. Can you say the same with the M’s getting Ramos and Slowey? Not even close. Not even sure a deal like that improves the team for next year. M’s Adam Moore has put up more impressive minor league numbers than Ramos. But he can’t seem to get it going in the Majors.
The Mariners can’t limit their choices. Sure, they could obviously use a bat, but the rotation needs help too. After Felix, you have back of the rotation guys. Slowey would be a big improvement there – plus you have him under control through 2013. If someone’s offering an equivalent package that features a bat comparable to Slowey, great, but you don’t take a bat just because your offense is terrible. You take whatever represents the best upgrade.
True, but do they need rotation help more than some offense? Jack Z has sure been playing the need to receive an impact bat in whatever deal finally goes down. I’ll be interested to see how Bedard performs and what the plans are for him when he comes back. And I’m pretty sure Michael Pineda will be up before the end of the year so they can get a look at him. Just seems that offense will be the best upgrade for this team going forward vs. a pitching prospect. I believe JackZ has even mentioned that they are only luke warm on someone like the Mets Mejia. I think it’s possible that some kind of 3 team trade goes down and the M’s get their impact bat. Anyway I’m hopeful.
The Mariners can’t limit their choices. Sure, they could obviously use a bat, but the rotation needs help too. After Felix, you have back of the rotation guys. Slowey would be a big improvement there – plus you have him under control through 2013. If someone’s offering an equivalent package that features a bat comparable to Slowey, great, but you don’t take a bat just because your offense is terrible. You take whatever represents the best upgrade.
Agreed. Seattle has an ace in Hernandez, but after that, it’s all back of the rotation guys. Slowey fills a big need there, and Ramos gives you another option at C (Moore certainly hasn’t showed enough to lock it down).
Not sexy, but practical. Slowey does get more expensive going forward since 2011 is his first arbitration year, but the Mariners might very well just sign him to a multi-year deal after acquiring him, like they did with Franklin Gutierrez, and avoid arb altogether.
If the Twins are truely offering Ramos and Slowey I think thats a good offer for the Mariners, Ramos is or is near MLB ready and Slowey has proven a decent middle of the rotation guy who would do well in Seattle since he does give up a decent number of fly balls. If the Twins toss in one or two mid level guys I think thats the deal.
With an All-Star roster and payroll like the Yankees have, there are no excuses to not win the WS. The only thing standing in their way to being laughable post-season favorites is Jesus Montero.
About Montero’s future…
a) Everyone says it isn’t at catcher.
b) It sure isn’t at 1B (Teixeira)
c) It must be at DH, at least for the next five or six years.
Are the Yanks incapable of paying a mashing free-agent DH over the next five years? Or the five years after that?
What are the odds that Montero is to be a 35-40 homer guy anyway?
I think the real question is about pride: Is giving up a fat prospect like Montero for a guy you plan on signing in the off-season an embarrassing move? It probably is if the Yanks win it all without Lee and Montero goes on to be a star.
But if they lose to Lee, or because they didn’t have Lee, it looks incredibly short-sighted. Clutching a young prospect without a position when you have deep pockets is potentially asinine, and in the end I think that outweighs the pride that would keep him in NY.
When the Yanks say they have what it takes, to me that means they will pay what it takes. Lee to the Yanks for Montero, unless someone outbids them.
I suspect Seattle’s price will start dropping rapidly as the deadline approaches. Should we really take it seriously when a seller starts a negotiation with an incredibly high asking price?
Do you want to wait the remaining 3 weeks and lose the 4-5 starts he gives you?
Absolutely. Not like he’s guaranteed to win those 4-5 starts, or Slowey is guaranteed to lose them in his place. In all reality we’re probably talking a 1-2 win difference.
Sorry, but Slowey + Ramos / Hicks + Ramos / etc. is not worth it. 6 years of Hicks for 1-2 wins this season? That’s asinine.
You’ll get Ramos and a B-level guy in a few weeks, and you’ll like it.
I know you’re being a little sarcastic about Ramos and a B-level guy but I think that is the problem with everyone’s thinking. There is competition for Lee’s services, there is going to be one team that breaks the bank. Ramos and a B-level guy won’t come close to the team that breaks the bank. If the White Sox or Detroit all of a sudden gets involved and they break the bank for Lee that completely changes the playing field and makes it so that maybe the Twins don’t make it to the playoffs. Not only does a GM owe it to the fans to compete but it also owes it to it’s players who work hard day in and day out to try to win and make it to the playoffs. How discouraging would it be for the Twin’s fanbase and players if Lee went to either the Tigers or White Sox.
Right. Minnesota will certainly offer less than the Mariners want, but all it takes is one other team to offer more than the Twins and they have to either up their offer or step out of the race.
I don’t see Minnesota as a team that’s going to get caught up in a bidding war, so my gut says they’re going to find the price too rich and bow out, but someone out there is going to make the best offer, and it’s going to be more than Ramos + B prospect.
I’ve always seen the Mets as that team. They’ve been disappointing the last few years. There has to be huge pressure to make a good playoff run and Minaya isn’t averse to dealing away talent.
I think the Twins are already in a bidding war if they offered Kevin Slowey or Aaron Hicks PLUS Wilson Ramos. Ramos might not be the blue chipper some say he is, but he is going to be a major league backstop, while Aaron Hick has all five tools and Kevin Slowey is a proven winner at the Major League level (over 2+ seasons worth of starts: 34-20) and is only 26.
I think the Twins are already in a bidding war if they offered Kevin Slowey or Aaron Hicks PLUS Wilson Ramos. Ramos might not be the blue chipper some say he is, but he is going to be a major league backstop, while Aaron Hick has all five tools and Kevin Slowey is a proven winner at the Major League level (over 2+ seasons worth of starts: 34-20) and is only 26.
Absolutely. Not like he’s guaranteed to win those 4-5 starts, or Slowey is guaranteed to lose them in his place. In all reality we’re probably talking a 1-2 win difference.
Sorry, but Slowey + Ramos / Hicks + Ramos / etc. is not worth it. 6 years of Hicks for 1-2 wins this season? That’s asinine.
You’ll get Ramos and a B-level guy in a few weeks, and you’ll like it.
Do you want to wait the remaining 3 weeks and lose the 4-5 starts he gives you?
I don’t agree. One huge factor is that so many teams are in the race. I could be off here, but it seems like the division/WC races are tighter than usual this year. The largest lead is Texas with 4.5 games over the Angels. The more teams in the race, the more buyers, and that’s going to keep the price high.
I don’t agree. One huge factor is that so many teams are in the race. I could be off here, but it seems like the division/WC races are tighter than usual this year. The largest lead is Texas with 4.5 games over the Angels. The more teams in the race, the more buyers, and that’s going to keep the price high.
JP Ricciardi never backed off of the sun, the moon, and the stars for Halladay last year, and all it cost him was his job. Jack Z is dealing from a position of weakness but that won’t stop him from acting otherwise. I guess he sees Lee as a golden ticket who can fix all the team’s holes, but sometimes you have to bow to reality. GMs seem to remember the outlier deals (Teixeira to the Braves) and they make that their minimum standard.
Weakness? This is one of the most competitive trading markets it recent memory.
You have the Yankees, Sox and Rays all withing a few games. You have the Twins, White Sox and Tigers all in it. You have the Rangers starting to lose a little ground to the Angels. You have The Reds fighting tooth and nail with the Cards. You have the Mets GM trying to win and keep his job.
Weakness???? Jack has BY FAR the best pitcher available and who happens to make peanuts. Lee is literally an option for half of baseball and if this Hicks/Ramos offer is true, he just got himself a TON more leverage by already having a big offer in his pocket.
Jackie Z is sitting about as pretty as can be.
He’s sitting pretty NOW, but he can’t sit there forever. Ask Bill Smith or JPR how that turns out.
Weakness huh. You’re right, nobody wants Cliff Lee. His stock is so low right now. Hopefully we’ll be able to pry Blackburn away from the Twins in a straight swap for Lee.
uh, there was a teeny bit more to JP Ricciardi losing his job
uh, there was a teeny bit more to JP Ricciardi losing his job
I suspect Seattle’s price will start dropping rapidly as the deadline approaches. Should we really take it seriously when a seller starts a negotiation with an incredibly high asking price?
Seattle can do better than Upton, they have serious leverage and a lot of teams interested. They should do very, very well. As much as I’d like to see the Mets get Lee I think the sleeper team is Cincinnati. They are contenders right now and can also afford to rent him to see how far they can go.
Rent him at the right price & I am all for it … if this Francisco rumor is true … count me in on him & Alonso in a deal
I just the sense the vibe from the Reds is they feel the dice are hot and they’re going to roll ’em. Normally seen as a more conservative team from a historic baseball town, haven’t been in the post-season for a long time, fans have waited long enough. If they don’t land Lee it’ll only be because someone else made a ridiculous offer. I think they’re going for it.
I hope you are right that they are after him … I just hope they don’t send a package like Alonso, Heisey & Wood for him … giving up that much talent could set the farm system back a few years lol
I don’t think you have to worry about the Reds giving that much up Jocketty is a good smart man. He knows he has to pay to get Lee but at the same time he is not going to give up future success that the team is having now to get Lee. A deal with Alonso and Fransisco and maybe a minor league pitcher that has upside to him would do it. Or perhaps give them Heisey and Alonso and someone else. I don’t wanna see wood get traded he has been pretty consistant in the minors doing a nice job. I don’t think he is a number 1 pitcher but he could be a nice 2 or 3 starter.
I just get the sense that the vibe from the Reds is they feel the dice are hot and they’re going to roll ’em. It’s a great, historic franchise with very supportive fans who’ve waited way too long since the team was last in the post-season. I think they’re going for it.
Seattle can do better than Upton, they have serious leverage and a lot of teams interested. They should do very, very well. As much as I’d like to see the Mets get Lee I think the sleeper team is Cincinnati. They are contenders right now and can also afford to rent him to see how far they can go.
Is Upton really that appealing at somewhere around $7 million after arbitration next year? Yeah some teams are going to like his potential but it’s not like he’s cheap.
Is Upton really that appealing at somewhere around $7 million after arbitration next year? Yeah some teams are going to like his potential but it’s not like he’s cheap.
I still don’t understand how the Braves only got CASEY KOTCHMAN for Mark Teixeira 2 years ago. Mind blowing. Every year some team breaks the bank for a rental player, sometimes giving up 2 blue chippers & another guy. We couldn’t even get ONE?
whats worse the fact you gave up 3 good players for him…had that been Omar Minaya making that deal…there would’ve been picket signs around Citifield
I still don’t understand how the Braves only got CASEY KOTCHMAN for Mark Teixeira 2 years ago. Mind blowing. Every year some team breaks the bank for a rental player, sometimes giving up 2 blue chippers & another guy. We couldn’t even get ONE?
I don’t think teams usually get 2 blue chips from a rental, look a the CC deal 2 years ago, they got 1 blue chip prospect in LaPorta and he still hasn’t lived up to expectations, they also got a couple other nice prospects but not top 10 prospects from the Brewers system. I don’t think Seattle gets more than 1 top prospect in a Lee deal.
I don’t think teams usually get 2 blue chips from a rental, look a the CC deal 2 years ago, they got 1 blue chip prospect in LaPorta and he still hasn’t lived up to expectations, they also got a couple other nice prospects but not top 10 prospects from the Brewers system. I don’t think Seattle gets more than 1 top prospect in a Lee deal.
I agree. But that won’t stop Zduriencik from asking. Especially if he already has a Hicks/Ramos offer on the table. It would take 2 blue-chippers to trump it actually.
Call me crazy, but I think Seattle is going to get pretty close to whatever they want. Lee is a difference-maker for a wide array of teams; he takes a borderline contender to true division contender status. He takes a legitimate contender to World Series team. Someone is going to make them a ridiculous offer.
The same exact thing can be said about CC 2 years ago, anytime a top rental player comes up they can obviously help a number of teams. Would teams rather give up 2 top prospects for 3 months of Lee or 2 years and 3 months of Dan Haren?
You’re absolutely right about CC, and he didn’t go to a team that normally makes a big splash at the deadline. I don’t know what the odds are on different teams getting Lee, but if I were a betting man I just might put some money on the Reds.
With so many teams extremely budget-conscious these days, it actually is a reasonable question to ask. Haren is owed lots of money over the next two years and change. Lee is owed only through the end of this year and then you’re off the hook. Plus, Arizona isn’t a motivated seller. They’ve been bad, but Haren under contract for the next two years isn’t something they have to get rid of. They can keep him unless someone blows them away.
But I do agree with your point re: Sabathia. I think the real question is whether someone’s willing to give up quality instead of quantity. The two deals for Lee and the Sabathia trade involved 3-4 prospects, but mostly good, not great, prospects. I suspect that’s what teams are going to want to offer – a package of 3-4 good prospects – and are going to have Seattle ask for less prospects, but of better quality.
Arizona might not be motivated sellers but they certainly would entertain offers for Haren and if Seattle sets their price too high teams will certainly call Arizona to see what the cost of Haren would be. Teams that can’t add much if any payroll may not want Haren (Rangers and Dodgers) but anyone who is considering re-signing Lee could get Haren for a bargain salary compared to what Lee is going to ask for. Haren’s deal is actually pretty team friendly and I’m sure teams would be willing to pay that price for a front end starter if they have room in their budget. From the Twins perspective I think Haren being locked up for a couple more years at a reasonable price would certainly be tempting since $12.75 million is 2011 is a very reasonable number for a front of the rotation starter that the Twins know they can’t get in free agency.
enough of this pathetic power trip; I hope Seattle fades away and ends up with nothing, and I hope if some team ends legitimizing this whole powertrip by coughing up their only relevant prospects ends shut out of the post season. forget market pirinciples; logic is that the longer the wait the less Lee is worth, the more irelevant complete games they make him pitch, thats even worse forget the market frenzie stick to logic Omar let someone else play sucker. even if Thole Flores Martinez and Heavans could get it down it’s not worth it. I for one, don’t believe Lee makes or breaks anything for the Mets, even if everyone else does.
“..even if Thole Flores Martinez and Heavans could get it down it’s not worth it.”
Its “Havens”, btw. Good piece of advice. Probably should learn how to spell your own prospect’s names before going on a rant.
I think that the Mets have way too many holes on their team to make selling the farm worth it. Their bullpen is very shaky due to Manuel’s overuse of certain players. I think if the Mets could trade for someone solid like Brett Myers would provide better value than giving up Meija and/or Flores to get Lee. Either way the Mets need another starter to allow Takahashi to move back to the bullpen.
Seattle is going to overplay their hand and ask for the world like Toronto did last trade deadline and end up losing bidders. The difference is of course that Toronto had 1 year and 4 weeks to move Halladay where Seattle has 4 weeks and only that. If I were any of the GM’s involved in the discussions so far I wouldn’t call Zduriencik for the next week (and also wouldn’t return his calls) and at the same time start making a ton of noise around Oswalt and Haren and others. Seattle has to realize that while Lee is the most attractive pitcher out there (both in terms of quality but also contract) but he isn’t the only one out there. If Seattle doesn’t look out they are going to piss off some teams and lose bidders. At some point they have to realize that the market value for a guy like Lee has been set pretty reasonably set at one blue chipper and a couple of other B type prospects. I can’t fault Zduriencik for asking for the world but he better be a little careful and be very fluid in these talks or some of the teams are going to jump out the Lee pursuit and when a team jumps out it can be really difficult to get them to jump back in sometimes.
I don’t mean to be rude… but thanks for breaking it down for the under-teen demographic.
Upton was a SS before being converted to CF and being promoted. I think his brother was too.
Upton was a SS who got converted to 3rd when he was called up again. He then got moved to 2nd base because of Akinori Iwamura. After that he was moved to CF because Aki was moved to 2nd as the Rays had some kid named Longoria.
so think maybe we might try and put him back at one of those spots? Just a idea?
Uh no. If Seattles dumb enough to center a deal around him they need to take it and not look back. Maybe Upton+Wade Davis+a couple more prospects. Zobrist plays center fine.
Theres a reason hes in the outfield
Zobrist has played CF in only 20 major league games, so I don’t think you can know whether or not his defense would be good in center.
I wonder what reasons, other than “The Yanks always go after the big names and spend tons of money and are bad for baseball….blah, blah, blah”, these writers are using to base the rumors that the Yanks are pursuing Lee on? I mean their rotation is far from their worst, most-needed-to-be-addressed issue. CC, Pettite, Hughes and Vazquez are looking better and AJ is owed to much to be moved.
Add on top of that, Montero’s struggles in AAA and the asking price for Lee and the fact that it’s only a rental and I simply don’t see the Yanks making a deal for him. I think they’ll engage enough to drive the price up like they did for Santana and Halladay but in the end I see them going after IF and bullpen help first.
On another note, someone mentioned Posada won’t be back next year. He has 1 more year left on his deal and Montero looks far from ready to take over for him. At 20 yo and a .250 avg and 6 hrs in AAA I think the Yanks will allow him as much time as he needs to find his stroke and to improve his catching skills, which oddly enough, is the one thing that scouts are raving about this year.
The way the Twins have played since April a rental player ain’t gonna do it. They need to sign a stud ace for more than one year, and upgrade the middle relief, or just bag it. They ain’t gonna get anywhere with the staff they have now…
That doesn’t make sense. Lee may not “do it” for this season, but he should put them in the playoffs. If all they need is a stud SP and middle relief, then trading for Lee and putting the left out SP in the pen would do both of those things. I agree that next year is far from certain if they can’t sign Lee (which they probably can’t), but that isn’t the point of this trade. Would you prefer they not trade for Lee and finish in second this year?
Making the playoffs isn’t really good enough anymore. And as a lifelong Twins fan I realize that is really saying something good about how far they have come. Just renting Lee is still not likely to get them to the Series. Meanwhile they aren’t going to be able to sign him long term, and they have shelled out two top prospects and possibly a current starter for him. And no prospect of shoring up middle relief this year. I’d save those resources and try to make a deal in the offseason ( I have to admit I don’t know who might be available). I just don’t think it is worth that price for a marginal increase in their chance to go deep into the playoffs.
I know were in need of a Catcher with some Pop, so why not wait till the off-season & sign Victor Martinez.
…because then they wouldn’t get anything for Lee. I think it’s assumed that he is out of SEA after this year. Ramos, etc. may not be a sure thing, but he’s cheap and young.
A team would be silly to give away their 2 top prospects plus a 3rd guy for a few months rental of Cliff Lee when its going to cost them at least $100m (probably more like $115m) and 5 years to keep him after this year.
Is it just me, or is this starting to smell an awful lot like The Santana Saga circa 2007?
A little, and it’s very weird to be on the other side of it. I’m hoping the M’s overplay their hand. The Twins got junk for Santana, though many of the situational factors were different (no trade clause, negotiation window, etc.). Luckily they were able to turn the junk into something.
I’m hoping the Twins can get a deal like that going in their favor.
A little, and it’s very weird to be on the other side of it. I’m hoping the M’s overplay their hand. The Twins got junk for Santana, though many of the situational factors were different (no trade clause, negotiation window, etc.). Luckily they were able to turn the junk into something.
I’m hoping the Twins can get a deal like that going in their favor.
If that’s the case then I will enjoy watching Lee on the Mets in the 2nd half and hopefully postseason
I predict Lee will be moved within 10 days after the All-Star break. His value will continue to depreciate the closer he gets to the Trade Deadline
The Mets have a “stud catcher close to the majors” in 23 year old Josh Thole and blue chip prospects in wilmer flores and Jenry Mejia, so why are the Twins front runners to get Lee??
Because Thole is not a stud catcher. His defense is in question and he’s a Sally at the plate.
The Mets have a “stud catcher close to the bigs” in 23 year old Josh Thole and have blue chip prospects Ruben Tejada, Wilmer Flores, Jenrry Mejia, and Fernando Martinez. So why are the Twins front-runners to get Lee??
Because Thole doesn’t project to be a “stud”, he’s expected to be a light-hitting C who’s decent but not fantastic behind the plate; not nearly the player Ramos projects to be. F-Mart’s stock is WAAY down. The Mariners have already said they “like but don’t love” Mejia. Flores is in A-ball (M’s have already said they want guys close to MLB) and Tejada is NOT a blue-chip prospect – dunno why you’d think he was.the Mets have some nice pieces, but Mejia and maybe Flores are the only guys that come close to the trade value of Ramos and neither seem to fit what the M’s are asking for.
Because…they have better prospects and Josh thole is a medicore catcher?
Because…they have better prospects and Josh thole is a medicore catcher?
If the Rangers sale goes through, it think they are clearly a frontrunner for Lee. They have so many up and coming prospects. Both hitters and pitchers. They have the best farm system in the majors. I would happily give up 1-2 good prospects plus a veteran like Harden (not that hes good…just for the salary) for Lee.
It probably take 3 good prospects if they want to dump Harden on us.
OMG if Cliff Lee goes to the Yankees, we’re looking at a three peat world series down the run T____T. how corrupted
Lee is going to texas.
Lee is going to texas.
Texas has plenty of minor league talent to offer, but they don’t appear to be willing to move Tanner Scheppers or Martin Perez according to Sullivan. Derek Holland, Blake Beavan, Chris Davis, Justin Smoak, and Jarrod Saltalamacchia could all be fair game.
That seems a little misinformed. Scheppers is untouchable but Smoak is in play? Doubt that much. But I would have to think Zduriencik would require one of Smoak, Perez or Holland in any deal with Texas. Especially if money is exchanged or Harden is added.
Texas has plenty of minor league talent to offer, but they don’t appear to be willing to move Tanner Scheppers or Martin Perez according to Sullivan. Derek Holland, Blake Beavan, Chris Davis, Justin Smoak, and Jarrod Saltalamacchia could all be fair game.
That seems a little misinformed. Scheppers is untouchable but Smoak is in play? Doubt that much. But I would have to think Zduriencik would require one of Smoak, Perez or Holland in any deal with Texas. Especially if money is exchanged or Harden is added.
Jason Churchill from Prospect Insider has heard that the Mariners have told Texas that a package around Justin Smoak is a must. Texas replied that they would “get back to them”.
So Smoak not off limits maybe? Could be a big turn of events.
Jason Churchill from Prospect Insider has heard that the Mariners have told Texas that a package around Justin Smoak is a must. Texas replied that they would “get back to them”.
So Smoak not off limits maybe? Could be a big turn of events.
Cliff Lee and Ichiro for Roy Halladay and Ryan Howard!!!!!
yeeha
Cliff Lee and Ichiro for Roy Halladay and Ryan Howard!!!!!
yeeha
Jurrjensftw put Chris Davis in instead of smoak and we are good!