The Mets are willing to deal for Cliff Lee without requiring a negotiating window to sign him to an extension, a source with knowledge of the team's thinking told Mark Hale of the New York Post. Two years ago, when the Mets agreed to trade for Johan Santana, they secured a 72-hour negotiating window with the ace.
The source also told Hale that the club would be unlikely to trade Jenrry Mejia, Jonathon Niese, or Ike Davis for Lee. Without those three in a deal, the Mets could offer the M's a package built around prospects such as Ruben Tejada, Fernando Martinez, Wilmer Flores, Jeurys Familia, and Josh Thole.
Meanwhile, several Mets officials said that the Mariners have not yet made Lee available, according to Andy Martino of the Daily News. The same officials say that there are no untouchables in the minor league system, though Angel Pagan is now "virtually untouchable" with Carlos Beltran's health so uncertain.
The Mets with Lee would make the NL East very competitive and interesting for the rest of the season.
The Mets would definitely make the NL East more interesting with Lee. And it would be really funny if the Phillies get beat down by the guy they traded cause they didn’t think they could afford him.
I’d gladly trade a guy like Thole or FMart for Lee. Obviously it would take more than that but you get my point. If the Mets can retain Niese, Davis and Mejia it’s a win/win for both clubs. Plus, even if Lee doesn’t sign/trade it gives him an idea of what it’d be like to pitch for NY, which may help in the off-season when the Mets attempt to go after him long term.
Get it done Omar!
Reyes, Pagan, Beltran, Wright, Davis, Bay, Tejada, SP
Santana, Lee, Pelfrey, Niese, Dickey
And put Taki in the BP with Feliciano.
Downright NASTY!!
Nasty is a bit too much over the top. Excellent, but not nasty, plus you’re relying on Beltran being immediately back to his old self, plus Bay finding his power stroke.
Yeah, it would be nice. Takahashi/Feliciano + K-Rod, as well as Dessens, are a good core of relievers. Hopefully 3 of Nieve, Igarashi, Parnell, Acosta or Valdes can put it together. Probably not Valdes though. You also have to take into account that it can boost revenue if we’re more competitive down the stretch and we’d get two compensation draft picks in next year’s draft if we lose him. Plus, our prospects would be out in Seattle in the AL where they can’t play us.
“If the Mets can retain Niese, Davis and Mejia it’s a win/win for both clubs.”I dont know what fantasy world your living in, but your not going to get him unless at least one of them is in the deal. Our preference is Davis, Niese, Mejia in that order. The only way it is a win for Seattle is to get a bat in return. If you haven’t noticed, our pitching is kinda killing everyone else in the world. Our offense….is getting killed by everyone in the world. We wont trade with the Mets without Davis in the deal so keep on dreaming.
in case u havent noticed…you are 13 games out of 1st place…and no bat is going to make that much of a difference this year…
also…Davis has been a stabilizing factor for the Met infield, and he is not too shabby with the bat either…why would the mets trade away their 1st baseman…with no real replacement in sight..
the mets may not be the best fit, as the twins may offer ramos ( top catching prospect )…ramos ALONE is better than the prospects u gave for Lee…and probably a better choice than the 2 picks u would get…
Funny how the past deal don’t mean anything. You want Lee, we get Davis. Its the way barter systems work. And of course no bat is going to make up 13 games THIS year, but next year maybe. And Ramos is not as good as everyone thinks he is. He was pretty average until ’08 and then was injured for most of ’09. He has tanked this year and is once again injured. We definitely would get better in the draft.
No. Actually he’s not. What’s he hitting at AAA, like .210? And I also heard he’s injured right now. He’s currently not worth even one of the draft picks the M’s would get if they let Lee walk.
first off, he is currently 22 years old…or…slightly older then some
college draft picks are now…( davis was drafted at 21…struggled his
first year in bk
2nd off.he hit .317 with a .795 OPS in 205 at-bats at AA New Britain at age
21. He had similar years with the bat in the Class A Midwest League and the
Class A+ Florida State League in 2007 and 2008….so to base a bad year on
197 AB’s might be jumping the gun…esp when he has had 3 good years
previous
2rd, there is no guarantee that the pick u get is even in the 1st
round…for example, if the orioles sign lee…u dont get their 1st round
pick..
3rd…the success rate of 1st round picks makes the baseball draft much more
of a crapshoot…so to say that someone who now has major league exp…and
hit .317 at AA last year is not worth a 1st round or possibly a 2nd round
pick is hyperbole. Is he worth Bryan Harper? no…but ramos had comparable
numbers to jason castro…the 10th pick of the draft a in 2008…Ramos hit
.317 with a .795 OPS in 205 at-bats at AA New Britain at age 21 ( better
than castro ) . He had similar years with the bat in the Class A Midwest
League and the Class A+ Florida State League in 2007 and 2008….so to base
a bad year on 197 AB’s might be jumping the gun…esp when he has had 3 good
years previous
First, I don’t think the Orioles are going to sign lee.
Second, the massive disparity between his AA numbers and triple AAA numbers are a big red flag.
Third, he’s damaged goods right now.
u dont know who is going to be signing lee…i was using the orioles as an
example…
the point is, he could sign with a team that had a less than stellar
record…or a team that signed multiple type-a free-agents..
and using a small sample size as a barometer isnt exactly smart…for that u
can say he handled MLB pitching just fine ( in his cup of coffee recently )
and calling him “damaged goods” is a stretch…esp considering lee has been
injured already this year…
the indians didnt get much for him
the phillies didnt get much for him
but for some reason u think the mariners are going to pull a boatload of
prospects for 3 months of his time…
ok, if u say so
Geez. Did I say “boatload” of prospects. The fact that Lee was injured for a couple of weeks at the beginning of the year is irrelevant. I guess you haven’t watched him pitch this year. He’s very healthy and dealing. Ramos not so much. And small sample size? Hasn’t Ramos been at AAA all year?
And please, another “Phillies didn’t get much for him” argument. I guess that’s Jack Z’s fault. Please name me one player available on the trade market that is better than Lee.
Ramos had almost 1,200 AB’s from age 18-21…in that time he batted around
.290…
in 147 AB’s ( in a year where he has been injured, he is batting .220
)…yeah i think its a small sample size…
and yes lee is the best available pitcher…and also the one least likely
to stay beyond 3 months..
u can net Oswalt for this year for less prospects if u absorb all his salary
( around 20 mil incl next year )…
what’s even better is the mets can make a run this year with
Santana/Pelf/Oswalt…and then add Lee on top of that…
i really think tampa is the sleeper in this whole deal…if i were them, i
would go bawls to the walls and go for the title this year…the net amount
of draft picks they get from losing 3 type A free agents in one year ( 6 )
combined with the shot to win the division this year would propel me to send
Seattle 3 prospects…
u dont know who is going to be signing lee…i was using the orioles as an
example…
the point is, he could sign with a team that had a less than stellar
record…or a team that signed multiple type-a free-agents..
and using a small sample size as a barometer isnt exactly smart…for that u
can say he handled MLB pitching just fine ( in his cup of coffee recently )
and calling him “damaged goods” is a stretch…esp considering lee has been
injured already this year…
the indians didnt get much for him
the phillies didnt get much for him
but for some reason u think the mariners are going to pull a boatload of
prospects for 3 months of his time…
ok, if u say so
First, I don’t think the Orioles are going to sign lee.
Second, the massive disparity between his AA numbers and triple AAA numbers are a big red flag.
Third, he’s damaged goods right now.
“We wont trade with the Mets without Davis in the deal” Did Jack Z call you to make sure you shared this information in the comments section of MLBTR?
And as for you’re pitching “killing everyone else,” the Mariners are ranked 20th in the league in xFIP on the year, with SP’s ranking 18th, so yeah….not really setting the world on fire there.
xFIP doesn’t mean anything unless your trying to compare players for other teams. The fact is, Seattle has a good defense. That’s why 4 of our starters rank in the top 17 of the AL ERA leaders.
So you’re saying that xFIP, a stat that attempts to factor out the luckiness/unluckiness of a pitchers HR/FB ratio, is meaningless for a team that plays half of its games in a park where it is difficult to hit a HR in……
They just brought up Thole since Barajas is day to day. He’s been tearing up Triple AAA so I think this is their chance to showcase him a little. I just like the way the organization is running coming up to the deadline. They have their eyes set and they think they have the pieces.
Yea, combination of Barajas needing some rest and Seattle needing a young Catcher. I’m sure we’ll see Thole make an appearance over the weekend. I like Thole but I’d glady trade him if it meant getting Lee. As long as we can keep Davis, Mejia and Niese I’m good. I’d prefer to keep either Tejada or FMart as well but I wouldn’t be picky if it came down to it.
No! Seattle does not need a catcher. I don’t know where this rumor started but we have a good young catcher already. Adam Moore is our future catcher, he has been out this a leg injury. Everyone is freaking out about the M’s needing a catcher because in his three weeks of playing time he struggled. He will get more of a chance to prove himself when he gets back off the DL later this month.
Wasn’t Jeff Clement supposed to be their future catcher?
My point is that it obviously can change and having depth at catcher would be a luxury worth having. Texas once had a surplus of young catching with Teagarden, Saltalamacchia, and Ramirez. Now, Ramirez is the only one whose value hasn’t changed a whole lot.
They could trade Thole, F-Mart and Bobby Parnell for Lee. Im not sure how much Jack Z would want for a rent a player. Hes a smart guy so I would think that he wouldnt let himself become this years Riccardi. Just keep him out of Minnesota. PLEASE.
I wouldn’t worry about that, the only interesting piece Minnesota has they have already said they wont part with.
The Twins definitely have the pieces to get Lee if they wanted to. And I’m assuming you’re talking about Ramos with your “the only interesting piece” tidbit, and if so can you provide a source?
i was talking about Kyle Gibson.
Oh, ok well yeah Gibson is probably untouchable from a Twins perspective, but either way they still have the prospects to pull of a Lee deal without including him.
I’m not denying that they have good prospects, just not the ones we need. That’s going to be the big question. Who will give Seattle the best prospects that we need verses who will give the best prospects.
Well, you can understand that I thought you were denying that they had good prospects by saying that they only had one interesting one. And you keep yearning for a 1B prospect, yet don’t seem to realize that almost any prospect can be converted to 1B, and that it is the easiest position to fill via FA, so I don’t think that Jack Z has it in his head that he needs a first baseman to make this trade.
I don’t see em trading Lee to the Mets. Simply because Jack Z will demand at least one quality ML ready offensive piece in return. FMart or Thole don’t fit that bill.
That can be Angel Pagan. However, they won’t be getting Mejia or Niese to go along with that. The best they’ll get pitching wise is Brad Holt. Maybe piece it together with a mid-level like Tejada or Parnell.
We dont want Pagan. We have a full outfield already. Saunders is our version of Pagan, but he is younger faster and will prolly hit for more power.
Pagan has 5.5 war in his last 600 plate appearances, Saunders wont have a 5 win season in his dreams
That may be true, but Pagan hasn’t either. He has a total of a 5.5 WAR over 3 years! When Pagan has a 5.5 WAR in ONE year, we can talk.
He is on pace to go over 5 this year, and the 5.5 is over this year and last. And with the way the mariners payroll is set up the next few years they cant afford to turn down cheap production like Pagan.
Actually we can. We are going to shed the rest of the albatross contracts after next season which is about the point we expect the team to begin competing again. In addition, Seattle is way under payroll right now. The team is usually around 100 or so and they decided to cut payroll to 93. The ownership isn’t in trouble so theoretically the payroll can still be increased. In fact, I wouldn’t put Seattle out of contention to resign Lee in the off season if he so desires it. It wont be Yankee money, but it wont be too bad of an offer either. If you add together the money payed to Lee and Bradley, that should be enough to pay Lee and we would give away Bradley and eat his money if that meant keeping Lee alone. So Seattle isn’t completely toothless in the monetary department.
If Seattle didnt raise their payroll this year, which was supposed to be their big year to contend, what would suggest they are going to bring it back to 100 million in the next few years. If they had the money, they would have spent it this year. Plus in 2012 they already have about 52 million committed to 4 players. They are going to have to fill out 21 players on 40 million dollars, they need all the cheap talent they can get and Pagan fits that bill perfectly. And if they resigned Lee it would cost around 20 mil per year which would bring the total to 70 million in 2012 to 5 players including 3 20 mil per year players, the Mariners are not the Yankees.
I’m sure that the comment that Pagan is “untouchable” does not apply to a trade for Lee. That would be stupid.
Why wouldn’t that apply to Lee? Beltran is coming off an injury and his knees are a huge question mark. Pagan is playing on fire lately, it wouldn’t make any sense to trade him. If you trade Pagan and Beltran comes back only to be injured again, what do you do then?
As it is, Beltran will need rest and Manuel will need to rotate Pagan, FCore and Beltran. They may not say it but the “untouchables” on the Mets are Niese, Mejia, Davis and Pagan.
I don’t understand why John Niese is untouchable. He’s a #4 starter. Guys like him are all over the league. That’s why as an M’s fan, I have no interest in him.
Right now he is, but he has upside. But we need Davis more.
Id like to ask you and all mariners fans a question… it seems as if a deal of either Mejia and Fmart for lee or Flores and a couple of hitting prospects (evans, duda lutz, etc) are floating around… as mariner fans would you be happy with either
Id like to ask you and all mariners fans a question… it seems as if a deal of either Mejia and Fmart for lee or Flores and a couple of hitting prospects (evans, duda lutz, etc) are floating around… as mariner fans would you be happy with either
You mean to tell me if If you have the chance to get one of the top starters in the game you wouldn’t be willing to include a guy who is basically a fourth outfielder? I mean, it would take a lot more than that to get him obviously; in fact, they probably wouldn’t even want him. Still, when you think of “untouchables” you think of guys who are either young prospects or star players. And Pagan fits neither description.
You mean to tell me if If you have the chance to get one of the top starters in the game you wouldn’t be willing to include a guy who is basically a fourth outfielder? I mean, it would take a lot more than that to get him obviously; in fact, they probably wouldn’t even want him. Still, when you think of “untouchables” you think of guys who are either young prospects or star players. And Pagan fits neither description.
I’m gonna spell it out for Mets fans because I think they are a little nuts with their demands to not part with any premiere prospects or even mediocre talent like Niese.
The M’s aren’t going to want a package headlined by Thole, Parnell, or any other middling prospect.
If the Mets want Lee the package will look a lot more like Flores, Martinez, and a couple of B prospects, then some of the crap packages mentioned above.
As a Met fan, I’d be fine with that too but Parnell is a solid middle innings guy, so if he doesn’t leave the organization, I’d be fine with it! But, it makes complete sense that they brought up Thole to “showcase” since he’s been hitting well in AAA right now, since Seattle is looking at the Catching prospect from Minnesota as well.
Are you kidding??? Niese as a mediocre talent. You realize one scouts say his upside potential is a cliff lee… he threw a fricken one hitter.
Niese is definitely more than “mediocre talent” but his 1 hitter was just one good game. Any one can throw one good game.
He’s a #4. John Niese will never be anything near Cliff Lee. Jarrod Washburn and a million other mediocre arms have tosses 1 hitters. That isn’t special.
Hell Galaragga threw a perfect game and he isn’t any good.
I would love to meet the scout who thinks Niese can be Cliff Lee. What a moronic statement.
Jon Niese is not a number 4. Your just looking at stats. He is a very very solid number 3 starter and will probably remain that but definitely has the upside as a number 2.
Hahaha. What stats am I looking at. He’s barely even pitched at the ML level.
Number 2 upside?!?! Haha.
Hahaha. What stats am I looking at. He’s barely even pitched at the ML level.
Number 2 upside?!?! Haha.
Just read the Hale article. That guy sounds pretty clueless. He thinks Lee is going to get 6 years and 150 million this offseason? Off his rocker.
And again, Seattle won’t be dealing Lee for a handful of 18 year olds in Low-A ball like Hale assumes. If what he says is true, best cross off the Mets right now for potential landing spots for Lee.
Seattle WILL get an A-level prospect that is less than a year away from the bigs. Write that down.
I agree. The M’s like to get ML or near ready talent, however I think they would have to take a strong look at a package built around Flores or Mejia.
The Mets overall aren’t a good matchup with the M’s though because they don’t have near ready impact players in their system or at the ML level. Davis is the only guy that fits that description and they won’t deal him.
I must disagree with you on one thing… Thole is definitely ML ready. last year he batted 323 with the mets from august to the end of the 09 season. HE stayed down to work on defense and thats what he has done so far this year. a package of Thole Fmart and Jeuryes Familia would be a trade i could see the M’s agreeing to.
Thole will be 24 this year and has had little success above AA. The .323 he hit was in 50 ABs so that doesn’t carry as much weight. He also is the definition of a gap ONLY hitter. The guy has zero power and has only hit 10 HRs in 6 years of minor league ball. Yikes. Unless he is a gold-glover behind the plate he’s a worse option than what Seattle already has in Adam Moore. FMart looks like his upside is a 4th OFer at this point. The guy looks to have lost everything that made his a uber-prospect when he was 18-19.
I can’t see Seattle agreeing to the package you mentioned. Too much risk and not enough reward there. Both Martinez and Thole have a high probability of being bench players.
Adam Moore is a better prospect than Thole. If we’re going to deal for a catcher it’s going to be for a guy like Ramos. Not a guy who is equal or slightly worse than our current in house options.
The deal must include Davis; its that simple.
Davis is not even a “prospect” anymore, he is a ML rookie slugger who has proved he can hit with authority, he is no longer a gamble he is a valuable commodity, worth more than two months of an ace pitcher the Yankee$ are already licking there chops for in his impending free agency….
Nick Evans,Josh Thole and Eric Campell gets it done…maybe the M’s fan base don’t like it, but a GM would realize it’s a fair and realistic offer, worth the risk. by the way I don’t think Mariners fans on here are acknowledging the mutual risk at play here…TWO MONTHS! that might end being as worthless for us as it would be for you guys!
Wow, you are really lost if you think any team would even contemplate that garbage package.
That is a pretty garbage package… but i bet you Thole Evans Fmart and Jeuryes familia would get it done
That’s your risk to take not ours. We already took that gamble and it didn’t pay off for us. You don’t see us crying to the Phillies. Jack Z has made it know that Seattle wants ML players and/or ML ready players. That means that Ike Davis is included in that description. If you want Lee, Davis is the price. If you don’t want to risk it, then I’m sure someone else will. Stop whining to Seattle about how unfair it is. Its supposed to be unfair. That’s why Seattle holds Lee’s contract and the Mets don’t. Stop being an NYer and learn that the world of baseball does not revolve around you.
Hahahaha. That gets it done huh? With that talent you should just send it to the Cardinals for Pujols. As long as the video game you’re playing allows you to.
Hahahaha. That gets it done huh? With that talent you should just send it to the Cardinals for Pujols. As long as the video game you’re playing allows you to.
I don’t think the deal has to be for Davis. Though if he was included, the Mets wouldn’t have to include much else.
Lee probably wont get 150 million but he could easily get between 100-120. Hes been the best pitcher in the al this year in only 11 starts
“He thinks Lee is going to get 6 years and 150 million this offseason? Off his rocker.”
considering how it is the Yankees who are going to sign Cliff Lee, does it really sound that insane?
The Yankees are the big city and believe it or not, unless NY blows away any deal from somewhere else, he may not sign with them. He isn’t the big city kind of person. From what we know of him here in Seattle, he lives in rural Arkansas and likes the low profile nature of the smaller teams. But that’s just the feeling we get, when someone waves $150mill its kinda hard to say no. I’m just saying, don’t be so sure he is definitely going the NY.
keep in mind, he wants to win, and his best friend is CC Sabathia. Philadelphia is a big city, and he wanted to stay there. there are rural areas in every state, especially new york.
I’d rather they trade for Oswalt since they could possible get out of giving up a lot by eating most of his salary. And if they are willing to give up a lot, I’d rather it be for Dan Haren (though I doubt the Dbacks would make him available).
In Oswalt they’d be taking on the rest of this years salary and 18 million next (including buyout). Put it at about 26 million total. For a year and a half of Roy Oswalt. That’s a load of cash plus they would still have to give up a few pretty good prospects.I doubt the DBacks would give up Haren. If they did, you bet your ass they would need to be overpaid to do so. You know those three that were deemed untouchable (Niese, Davis, Mejia)? Guarantee it that the DBacks would want all 3 …and I bet they could get a better package from someone else.
How do you add a 2 million dollar buyout to a 16 million dollar contract and get 18 million if they don’t buy him out? It’s either they pay him 16 million and keep him or pay him 2 million and he becomes a free agent again. You don’t add the buyout to his salary if you don’t buy the player out.
Oswalt is signed for the rest of this season, all of the 2011 season ($16mill) and then a $2mill buyout of his $16mill option for the 2012 season.
With Oswalt, you can probably give up fewer prospects AND have him for another year. Lee is making less but if you want to give him an extension or want to sign him, the money isn’t going to be much different.
Oswalt, as great of a career as he’s had, has picked on impotent offenses in 2010. He hasn’t been nearly the pitcher Lee has been, and he’s overpaid. It would be interesting to see Oswalt in the AL. My money says he gets relatively hammered.
I don’t want to live in a world where Pagan is untouchable and Flores is not.
I wouldn’t either.
I would much rather have Pagan right now. The time is now, not in 2-3 years.
That’s what the Red Sox said when they traded for Larry Andersen, what the Braves said when they traded for Teixeira, and what the Mariners said when they traded for Bedard. And two of those were more than rentals. Flores is more than a Lee rental should command.
I think it is careless for the Mets to call up Thole for a few games. They did that before. Use Omir Santos for that. Come on. He would have been the starting catcher if we didn’t get lucky getting Barajas last minute.
There is something perplexing about the Mets when it comes to hype prospects. They never seem to live up to the hype they are spoken about. And than there are many players (many of whom never play with us ala Heath Bell) who turn out great. The only prospects to live up to their hype in the last 7 years that stayed in our organization were Wright, Reyes and Pelfrey is starting to. Milledge never worked out, Gomez wouldn’t have worked out (although we got lucky using him as the main piece in the Santana deal) and Fernando Martinez (formerly coined ”teenage hitting machine”) has taken steps back. Now Wilmer Flores (a SS who’ll probably get turned into a 2B) is considered our top position player prospect (besides Ike Davis, who’s doing great, but Flores still may have been expected of more).
Now there is talk about Angel Pagan? Does that really make sense if Beltran’s not 100% ready? There’ll be no way of evaluating this because another team may get to Lee first and they’d only get 2-3 weeks to look at Beltran even if they have until around the deadline. Plus, Francoeur is really streaky. It isn’t the worse thing to play him against lefty’s and Pagan against righty’s with Beltran getting a good amount of days off. If they get Pagan, they won’t be getting Mejia.
As far as your suggestion regarding the team using Santos instead of Thole during this Barajas dinged up-period there is just one problem: Santos was placed on the AA DL before Wednesday’s game with a “fifth-digit fracture.” So while it makes sense in general, it was impossible at this time.
Oh, okay. I didn’t know this. Merci š
ultimately i dont think it matters because another team will likely offer more than what the mets will. fernando martinez is being talked about as the big chip and to be honest doesnt have a bright mlb future (just in my opinion). not to mention Minaya is cheap, and i look at a team like the Twins who could offer more.
Martinez has potential if he can stay healthy. How much I don’t know. All I know is luckily we still have uncertainty in Martinez. What is there to hope for in Milledge and Gomez? Mediocrity? F-Mart is only 20. It’d probably be to our benefit to hold onto him though. Beltran will probably be the CF the rest of this season, with Pagan / Francoeur splitting RF (or perhaps Beltran in RF when Pagan starts, but Pagan may get more starts). There is a good chance Francoeur gets traded or cut as he hit 5 million in arbitration last season which isn’t worth it for a part time player. Than after 2011, if F-Mart proves he can be ready, the 2012 OF can potentially be Bay/Pagan/F-Mart, with Niewunheis in the wings.
the M’s want major league ready hitting, and cliff lee pitched like a mad man through the playoffs last year, so everyone knows what he is capable. dont expect to be getting Lee for anything less than a TOP major league ready prospect.
Mets top prospects in order (counting rookies for argument sake) who are probably not available (never say never though, because look at what happened to Kyle Drabek for the Phillies): Davis, Niese, Mejia, Flores
5-12 who are available: Fernando Martinez, Brad Holt, Josh Thole, Bobby Parnell, Ruben Tejada, Reese Havens, Kirk Nieuwenhuis, Jeurys Familia
Look at it this way. Lee will have similar value this year around deadline time as last year. The reason why is he was coming off of a Cy Young season last year. Granted he pitched like one in the postseason and couldn’t really compete for the award splitting two leagues, but his proven postseason pitching boosts his value even more. The reason his value wouldn’t be higher than last season though is he’s a 2-3 month rental.
The group of prospects the Indians got weren’t bad. They just haven’t done much since arriving. They really didn’t get any top prospect, maybe except for Jason Knapp (although he was not ranked as high as Kyle Drabek or Dominic Brown). Everyone kept on thinking the rookie/inexperienced J.A. Happ would be in the deal much like the inexperienced Niese of this season (although he’s not doing what Happ did last year) or establishing Pagan. Like Happ though, I don’t expect Niese or Pagan to go. It doesn’t make sense to trade what’ll cost your current team plus the future for a player who’ll help now. Amaro should have realized that when trading Lee in a separate deal when it is clear starting pitching is their weakness and he’ll just be looking for it anyway. And the double edged sword may be that if Lee ends up a Met, it just cancels out the Halladay acquisition.
So here is what Philadelphia traded last season: Knapp/Donald/Marson/Carrasco
The equivalent for the Mets can be: Holt (Knapp) / Tejada (Donald) / Thole (Marson) / Parnell (Carrasco)
An interesting point though is Tejada is starting to play well and it may be time to give up on Castillo who wasn’t playing well and is always hurt juet like we did with Maine and Perez.
M’s would sooner take draft picks then that package.
Also, Davis, Flores, and Mejia are better prospects than Niese. I wouldn’t have any interest in John Niese other than him being a throw in player.
I agree, Seattle would take the picks. I personally like Niese, but we need big time hitters and we desperately need it at 1B.
the problem with this is that for whatever reason, the indians didnt want much for lee, Knapp was the center piece of that deal as a future closer. (also look at how theyve handled some of their other super stars, exactly what did they get in return for cc and victor?)
after what lee did for the phillies last year his price has gone up significantly, the package that got him out of cleveland wont come close to taking him out of seattle.
I would throw in Francoeur in the deal. F-Mart, Captain Kirk, Familia and Tejada/Havens/Flores. Any opinions on this?
Also Thole or Santos
Francoeur: No way
Thole and Santos: No interest
FMart: interest as the 2nd best prospect in the offer
Kirk/Familia/Tejada/Havens: interest as third best prospect in the offer
Flores: Definite interest. Would have to headline the package. Him or Mejia.
That is if F-Mart is healthy. There may some interest in Thole. Santos doesn’t have value and shouldn’t even be considered a prospect. Either Mejia or Flores head the package. Or a combination of F-Mart mixed with Holt (who in my opinion still has more value than Havens because of injuries, and as much as Tejada, Familia and Kirk), plus 2 or 3 of Familia, Tejada, Havens, Kirk, Gee and Parnell (still a live arm). The Mets got the pieces. It is just a matter of less quantity, more quality or more quantity, more quality. This team has at least 12-13 prospects that are at least worth reviewing in this type of trade.
Im sorry but you are very very mistaken if you think the deal would/should be
Mejia/Flores + Martinez + Kirk/Familia/Tejada/Havens
Lee is a freaking rental.
Seattle has a full out field. We have power arms and a couple in the minors who should be up next year (Pineda, Fields, Hill). We have Figgins for years at 3B, Ackley for 2B, Triunfel or Franklin for SS (in two years), and Moore behind the plate. We have nothing, NOTHING at 1B. Which is why Ike Davis or bust for the Mets.
There is no way Triunfel sticks at SS, and Franklin has half a season of a ball under his belt so its a bit premature to say hes gonna start at the big league level in two years
No we don’t. Saunders is still a question. He’s showed improvement this season, but I wouldn’t say he’s locked into being out LF for the next 5 yrs.
Pineda is the only legit near ready arm we have currently in the system. At least until Paxton signs. Fields is a reliever. Hill is John Niese like. Nothing special. Back rotation guy.
Franklin is in A ball. He’s 3-4 years away from being an impact major leaguer. Triunfel is a third basemen. I agree that Moore still looks like a solid league average catcher.
Mets will never give up Davis and we shouldn’t be looking for a 1B in return. 1B is not a hard position to fill in the short term. There are always 1B available who could provide some pop in the short term.
I know Jack wants near ready players, but I have no issue just taking the best prospects being offered, even if it’s guy who won’t be ready for a couple years.
I wouldnt count on anything from Josh Fields, he is 25 and is in double a still. He had an awful year last year and he has major control issues.
Why in the world would the Mariners want Frenchy? That deal is crap.
If anything the Mets need to deal Frenchy somewhere. Pagan is the guy who should play RF when Beltran returns, not French-Teeth has Jerry Seinfeld put it.
I don’t doubt the Mets like Lee and they’re not so incompetent that they won’t try. But I wonder if the Mets are getting name dropped just to scare the Yankees into trading for Lee instead of waiting for the offseason. I don’t know if the Wilpons have their money mojo back, but you could reasonably assume that if they get Lee for 2 months, they also have the money to give him a huge deal to keep him around. I assume the Yanks are confident that they can outbid just about anyone for Lee, but the Mets might be one of the only teams to challenge them, and the Mets would get a significant advantage in signing him (Yanks can’t talk to him until after the season, giving the Mets loads of time to work on him).
Yeah, you’re probably right. The thing is though, even though it’d potentially be embarrassing in the newspapers, that is only temporary and it’d be nice to see him end up in the AL in the event it happens. I’d have to think our chances are 25% at best to sign him this off-season, but 50% if get acquired him via trade. And in the even we don’t, we still get two compensation picks which will probably give us 2 better future prospects than a group of 4-5 mid-levels we may give up to get him.
I am so sick and tired of people suggesting that the Yankees are going to trade for Lee, or any SP for that matter. Look, we don’t need a SP this season, Vazquez is now pitching the way we expected him to, (3.76 ERA since May) and no one else is going to get bumped from the rotation. The only help the Yankees need is in the bullpen, and maybe a better utility infielder, there is no way that Cashman is going to give up the necessary prospects it will take to get Cliff Lee.
And as for which team can challenge them in the offseason, my vote goes to the Tigers, they have a ridiculous amount of money coming off the books and I could see them wanting a top line starter to pair with Verlander.
And there have been many reports that have Lee wanting to test FA, no matter who he gets traded to, so I really don’t think that the Mets, or any other team will have an advantage on resigning him if they trade for him this season.
Stop talking about the Yankees. The Mets can sign him to a deal similar to the Yankees this off season.
Angel Pagan is now “virtually untouchable”.
I laughed when I read that the 1st time, and I just did again after typing it.
he would be if they could get rid of Beltran, but no one wants that contract.
I think as far as they would not be looking to trade him at all because they have no CF replacement. You can’t count on Beltran. Angel has been the Mets MVP so far this season.
The Mets will not be trading any of Pagan, Niese or Davis for a rental regardless of who it is. They also would be idiots to trade their top pitching prospect for a 2 month rental as well. Neither the Phillies nor the Indians required top prospects for their trades of Lee WITH years on his contract. You get guys like Fmart, Kirk New.., Tejada, Thole… if you don’t like those then good luck actually getting what you want from the Twins who also have no thoughts of actually signing Lee longterm.
the thing is that lee showed what he could do last year in the post season. the M’s know that and are going to make sure they get the absolute best package they can, because they could always just hold onto him seeing as how even at being 14 gb in the west, no one in that division is really good enough to win it, but no one in the division is really bad enough to lose it either. the M’s could just as easily acquire a bat and a pen arm and be right in the thick of things.
Cleveland got trash for Lee because they were too eager to trade him off, and you have to remember he had struggled mightily for a portion of last season. Since the trade, including postseason, he has been absolutely brilliant. Having gotten a chance to see Lee pitch the last two months, I can say that he’s in the convo for best pitcher in baseball. He is that good. His strikeout to walk figures are absurd, and he has been dominating everybody of late.
If the Mets get him they instantly become WS contenders in my opinion. He’s an automatic win every fifth day. And come postseason he’s a helluva lot more reliable than an inexperienced Pelfrey, and a Santana who is no longer an elite pitcher.
There is no way the M’s turn down an offer of Thole, Martinez and Flores. In my opinion that is just as valuable or more valuable than what they gave up for him. M’s need some offense in there system. Adding a shortstop to compete with Triunfel for playing time in the next couple years would be nice. Yes ideally you would like to get an arm in a deal like this, but you can’t argue with this package.
Triunfel and Flores are future 3B. And I agree, you absolutely make that deal even though Thole is pretty much destined to be a career backup.
Flores is a bigtime prospect, and Martinez if he can stay healthy can be a solid corner outfielder. That’s a deal you definately make, pretty much because Flores has become a premiere prospect.
By the way, the M’s gave up absolutely nothing to Philly in that deal. Totally fleeced them even though the season hasn’t worked out as planned. None of those ex-Seattle prospects are any good. Amaro did a poor job identifying talent in that case.
Pagan is one of the few players on this team that should be considered “untouchable” he hasn’t even played a full major league season yet, people say he is on fire, I think he is just gettin warmed up, the sky is the limit for him, he is only 28 and we should hang on to him till the wheels fall off; he’s a star calliber player, playing for a bench price….end of story. renting Lee shouldn’t cost a proven prospect like Tejada, Ike or Niese, they should be taking a gamble on a lower level prospect with loads of promise; the same way the Mets are taking a gamble that three months of Lee is worth anything; nothing short of a WS title would satisfy the sacrifice, and lets be honest the mathematical probability is that Lee gets us no where and the trade bate fizzles out; lose/lose for both sides.
Pagan is not a star calibur player. Sorry. He’s having a great year, but he isn’t on star calibur level. I’m not saying he’s fluking, though, because I’ve seen a back-up turn into a great everyday player when given the chance due to an injury. And his name is Martin Prado. Yeah, I guess I have a little bit of a man crush on him.
I’ve been accused of the “man crush” with Pagan from my wife as well, I noticed him from the second he had a Mets uniform on; I think if you look at the particulars of his career ie. the kind of injuries he’s had, the off the field issues, even the on the field errors, he is a superstar player who’s career just got stunted a little, like I said before I would bet my life he will only continue to get better and top out in around three years; he is a five tool player and I think the best athlete in a Met uniform who has only hinted at his potential….Prado is nasty too though!
Players like Pagan typically don’t get grouped in the ‘star’ category though. A guy that may not even hit double digit homeruns doesn’t attract that sort of attention. He’s a valuable player none-the-less though. I’m cheering for him.
The MLB is in a different spot than it was only a few years ago. Teams over value all their prospects so it might be a tough sell to get a team to give up the farm for a half year rental of Cliff Lee, despite how good he has been. The Mariners might just be better off offering arb at the end of the year and getting the 2 picks when Lee signs elsewhere. They could also choose to just keep him. Felix + Lee is a pretty great starting point to build a team around.
Why in hell would Cliff Lee resign with the Mariners no offense…
Money? He likes the city? He likes how the future looks? It was just a thought.
You gotta give up something to get something. Just because Cleveland is inept doesn’t mean Seatlle will do the same. Even Davis is expendable as he could be replaced with A-Gon or Prince. Get Lee and make a run for another possible Subway Series.
Mets have a solid team top to bottom. Any rotation that has Lee and Santana can compete with anybody, especially in short series. Santana, Lee, Pelfrey is great one through three. Dickey and Takahashi are hot but the Mets would be foolish to bank on them to get them through the postseason. When you are this close you need to get the sure thing. Imagine how lethal Lee would be pitching at Yosemite……i mean Citi Field.
I hope Jack just deals Lee for the best possible package but gets at least one near ML-ready player. Whether that be a pitcher or whatever. As far as the gaping black hole at first base is concerned; the Mariners can always make a run at Prince in the offseason anyway.
bottom line for every met fan to consider… if your team acquires cliff lee, you automatically become the favorite to win the pennant. how much is that worth to you?
So the Pirates still stand a chance?! š
Not if we give up Niese Davis or Pagan…
You Mets fans are funny. You say you want Lee but won’t trade any of your top 4 prospects. Do you think Jack Z is going to get hosed like Minn did with Santana? Its about quality instead of quantity these days. If the Mets get stingy then that opens the door for the rest of baseball to swoop in with their middle-tier prospects. If you want Lee, you gotta pay up. There will be a ton of competition for him. Personally, I think its Minnesota’s to lose.
doesn’t it seem like the longer they wait to trade him, the less he’s worth? I’m aware there are some basic economic principles involved and I don’t know as much about sports business as some on here maybe, but if you are getting 8-10 starts out of a guy, maybe he wins 6 or 7 if things go well, how is that worth one Davis, Tejada, or Niese? I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect battled tested players to be included in a rental; shouldn’t be a deal of actual prospects?
Really sucks for Lee that he might end up with the Mutts. The Phils should have kept him.
LOL….this is a riot. Seattle fans: YOU AREN’T GETTING IKE DAVIS. Just take the draft picks, since you’ve clearly gone insane.
LOL….this is a riot. Seattle fans: YOU AREN’T GETTING IKE DAVIS. Just take the draft picks, since you’ve clearly gone insane.
And Phillies fans….it’s not the Mets’ fault your GM is an idiot. Sorry.
And Phillies fans….it’s not the Mets’ fault your GM is an idiot. Sorry.
Wow….this is insane! I’m going to say this one time since it seems like no one else has and I want you NY guys to listen up good!
YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO WANT LEE!!!!! He’s the best trade target out there by far and you think that some package of 3 mid level prospects will “get the job done”?!? There will be 8-10 teams asking about Lee and offering packages. You think that garbage will be better than all the other offers? Really?
I love the statements of “that will get it done”, NO it won’t! To get him you will have to beat other offers, you’re NOT bidding against yourself here. I assure you that more than one team will be willing to trade a MLB ready bat PLUS a top prospect and another throw in player or two for Lee. Heck the Twins might even offer Ramos and Slowey for Lee……and that offer would take a piss all over the offers some of you have suggested.
STOP, I know you’re thinking “no way the Twins do that deal”….doesnt’ matter, someone will offer a boat load more than some of you are thinking.
In the end Lee will NOT go to the Mets without a deal that includes one of the 3 guys you all don’t want to trade because you have to give something we want to get something you want!
2 other points: Seattle has 2 young catchers and Moore might be the guy but I don’t think that management is so fond of him and I think it’s very realistic to think that they will be looking at top catching prospects in a Lee deal (NO Thole would not be a “top catching prospect”). Second, Saunders is not a guy the team loves either and I would not be shocked to see him traded this season. They tried to trade him in the off season, and I’d personally rather have Pagan than Saunders any day but I don’t think that Pagan would be a part of a Lee trade.
Oh and nice work CrustyJuggler on consistantly having good and educated points.
Wow….this is insane! I’m going to say this one time since it seems like no one else has and I want you NY guys to listen up good!
YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO WANT LEE!!!!! He’s the best trade target out there by far and you think that some package of 3 mid level prospects will “get the job done”?!? There will be 8-10 teams asking about Lee and offering packages. You think that garbage will be better than all the other offers? Really?
I love the statements of “that will get it done”, NO it won’t! To get him you will have to beat other offers, you’re NOT bidding against yourself here. I assure you that more than one team will be willing to trade a MLB ready bat PLUS a top prospect and another throw in player or two for Lee. Heck the Twins might even offer Ramos and Slowey for Lee……and that offer would take a piss all over the offers some of you have suggested.
STOP, I know you’re thinking “no way the Twins do that deal”….doesnt’ matter, someone will offer a boat load more than some of you are thinking.
In the end Lee will NOT go to the Mets without a deal that includes one of the 3 guys you all don’t want to trade because you have to give something we want to get something you want!
2 other points: Seattle has 2 young catchers and Moore might be the guy but I don’t think that management is so fond of him and I think it’s very realistic to think that they will be looking at top catching prospects in a Lee deal (NO Thole would not be a “top catching prospect”). Second, Saunders is not a guy the team loves either and I would not be shocked to see him traded this season. They tried to trade him in the off season, and I’d personally rather have Pagan than Saunders any day but I don’t think that Pagan would be a part of a Lee trade.
Oh and nice work CrustyJuggler on consistantly having good and educated points.
Wow….this is insane! I’m going to say this one time since it seems like no one else has and I want you NY guys to listen up good!
YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO WANT LEE!!!!! He’s the best trade target out there by far and you think that some package of 3 mid level prospects will “get the job done”?!? There will be 8-10 teams asking about Lee and offering packages. You think that garbage will be better than all the other offers? Really?
I love the statements of “that will get it done”, NO it won’t! To get him you will have to beat other offers, you’re NOT bidding against yourself here. I assure you that more than one team will be willing to trade a MLB ready bat PLUS a top prospect and another throw in player or two for Lee. Heck the Twins might even offer Ramos and Slowey for Lee……and that offer would take a piss all over the offers some of you have suggested.
STOP, I know you’re thinking “no way the Twins do that deal”….doesnt’ matter, someone will offer a boat load more than some of you are thinking.
In the end Lee will NOT go to the Mets without a deal that includes one of the 3 guys you all don’t want to trade because you have to give something we want to get something you want!
2 other points: Seattle has 2 young catchers and Moore might be the guy but I don’t think that management is so fond of him and I think it’s very realistic to think that they will be looking at top catching prospects in a Lee deal (NO Thole would not be a “top catching prospect”). Second, Saunders is not a guy the team loves either and I would not be shocked to see him traded this season. They tried to trade him in the off season, and I’d personally rather have Pagan than Saunders any day but I don’t think that Pagan would be a part of a Lee trade.
Oh and nice work CrustyJuggler on consistantly having good and educated points.
Then keep him….because you aren’t getting Ike Davis or Jon Niese for a two or three month rental.
Ha, AngryPoster was so angry he posted it twice…..sorry my first post here and I kinda got carried away lol.
Ha, AngryPoster was so angry he posted it twice…..sorry my first post here and I kinda got carried away lol.
You may be angry at Mets fans, but the Seattle fans are grossly overestimating his value. Sorry guys, you aren’t going to rebuild your team by trading Cliff Lee. You get Jennry Mejia and lower-level guys or shop elsewhere. Lee isn’t the only pitcher available.
yeah, I hear Jarrod Washburn is available.
yeah, I hear Jarrod Washburn is available.
You may be angry at Mets fans, but the Seattle fans are grossly overestimating his value. Sorry guys, you aren’t going to rebuild your team by trading Cliff Lee. You get Jennry Mejia and lower-level guys or shop elsewhere. Lee isn’t the only pitcher available.
flores, martinez, familia, and havens. throw in kirk if need be. i think the mariners take that, and i can’t see why mets fans wouldn’t like that deal. lee puts them over the top, and none of these mentioned prospects look like guys that could help the team at all this year or even next. hell, id give up any prospcts not named davis niese of mejia for lee. santan, lee, and pelfrey just looks awesome in a short series. and what makes it even better is the fact that beltran is only a couple weeks away.
Mets already fleeced the Twins with that garbage they gave away for Santana. There prospects for the most part are in fact overhyped. What are you actually selling Mejia as???? Starter??? Well if he was such a great SP prospect how come he has not been able to crack their rotation. You gotta bet big to win big.
The Mets farm ranks #15 by Baseball Prospectus….so…NO, they aren’t overhyped. The Mets have some good prospects. The problem here is that the Seattle fans want to believe they are entitled to a boatload of talent for a three-month rental. You aren’t and you’re going to be disappointed with what you end up with, be it from the Mets, Twins or whomever.
Those prospects include the likes of Ike and Niese. To make a run at a World Series you need a very good 1-2 punch. Im not saying unload everything but if you were the GM of the Mets and they were in the position Seattle was in what would you want for Santana? A very nice return im sure.
They still have some good prospects. They aren’t like Houston or the Cards, with barren farms. The fact that they are considered a frontrunner speaks to this. The return just isn’t going to be there. He’s a rental. Seattle will get one good prospect and a bunch of lower-level, high upside guys.
If Jack Z decides he likes Wilson Ramos and his sub 600 OPS in AAA, have at it.
My main point is the M fans aren’t getting the return they think they are.
They still have some good prospects. They aren’t like Houston or the Cards, with barren farms. The fact that they are considered a frontrunner speaks to this. The return just isn’t going to be there. He’s a rental. Seattle will get one good prospect and a bunch of lower-level, high upside guys.
If Jack Z decides he likes Wilson Ramos and his sub 600 OPS in AAA, have at it.
My main point is the M fans aren’t getting the return they think they are.
Those prospects include the likes of Ike and Niese. To make a run at a World Series you need a very good 1-2 punch. Im not saying unload everything but if you were the GM of the Mets and they were in the position Seattle was in what would you want for Santana? A very nice return im sure.
Yeah. They are overhyped.
Whatever – at least we have prospects, unlike you guys. How’s first base treating you?
Enjoy Wilson Ramos.
We’ll be in the playoffs and you’ll be in the cellar.
Whatever – at least we have prospects, unlike you guys. How’s first base treating you?
Enjoy Wilson Ramos.
We’ll be in the playoffs and you’ll be in the cellar.
The Mets farm ranks #15 by Baseball Prospectus….so…NO, they aren’t overhyped. The Mets have some good prospects. The problem here is that the Seattle fans want to believe they are entitled to a boatload of talent for a three-month rental. You aren’t and you’re going to be disappointed with what you end up with, be it from the Mets, Twins or whomever.
100% the M’s will get much better than anything you have to offer after the top 3 you all seem to think are untouchable (or has been reported as “untouchable”). I actually don’t think the Mets will get Lee anyway because I think there will be a better option as a MLB ready bat than the Mets will trade. I don’t think that they will part with Davis, and I don’t blame them so I don’t think they will have the package the M’s want.
So really this is all probably pointless to even talk about because he’s probably not going to be a Met.
How would Ike Davis be a fair trade for Cliff Lee?
A solid 1B,cheap and under control for five more years for a three-month rental?
You guys need to get real. It’s hilarious.
How would Ike Davis be a fair trade for Cliff Lee?
A solid 1B,cheap and under control for five more years for a three-month rental?
You guys need to get real. It’s hilarious.
I believe the M’s will in fact do one of two things. They will get the best package availabe or let Lee walk in free agency and recieve the 2 picks in compensation. As far as Ike Davis for Cliff Lee straight up thats never happening. The Mets would have to center a deal around him. Pitching wins WS period. Santana and Lee could be serious one two punch to throw out there.
I dont understand fans sometimes. You are not fantasy baseball owners. You go to games and support your team in hopes that they win. If you would rather control an Ike Davis for the next five years then take a legitimate shot at a WS then more power to you. For the Mets the future is now. Your ace is not getting any younger. I say trade for Lee.
I understand the arguement on both sides but if you want to win you gotta go for it.