The Red Sox claimed pitcher Casey Fien off waivers from the Tigers today, according to the Tigers' official Twitter feed. Fien was designated for assignment on Tuesday to make room for Johnny Damon. The Red Sox announced that they designated former waiver claim Gaby Hernandez for assignment to clear a spot for Fien. It's been a busy winter for Hernandez, who was designated for assignment by the Mariners when they signed Ryan Garko.
Fien, 26, posted a 3.41 ERA, 10.2 K/9, and 2.3 BB/9 in 58 Triple A relief innings this year. He struggled in 11.3 big league frames, which marked his Major League debut. Baseball America ranked Fien 27th among Tigers prospects, writing that he "profiles as a middle reliever." Still, his minor league command is intriguing.
Heck yea! Sox to the W.S. and this guy will win Cy Young!
Given his minor league stats, this is an excellent move by the Sox. I’m guessing he’ll battle with the Boofster, Ramon Ramirez II, and Atchison for the final spot in the bullpen.
I don’t think thats really much of a competition. Ramirez has it pretty much on lock.
Boof shows a lot of promise, but I just don’t see him reaching his “potential”. I don’t like his delivery, and I’m sure that’s something John Farrell will address. But yea, for the first month or two, I think that middle relief spot belongs to RRII while RRI takes care of setup duties when facing primarily righties, and Okajima will face the primarily lefty lineups.
I think if anyone had it on lock, there would be less than 30 pitchers at spring training. Personally, I expect to see Boof in the pen (he doesn’t excite me at all, but I’m pretty sure they’d like a long man/spot starter) along with Shouse or Richardson, but I think it’s a pretty open competition between a lot of players.
I believe your thinking of the original Ramon Ramirez, the one we got for Coco Crisp. THAT Ramon Ramirez has a bullpen spot on lock. Ramon A. Ramirez, aka Ramon Ramierz II, has a pretty slim chance of landing the last bullpen spot which will most likely go to Bonser in my opinion.
No. I was thinking of the correct ramon ramirez. The one that pitcher for tampa bay last season and put up some very promising numbers.
No. I was thinking of the correct ramon ramirez. The one that pitcher for tampa bay last season and put up some very promising numbers.
But yes. Ramon ramirez who came in the crisp deal will be our righty setup man. That’s pretty much a done deal unless bard or delcarmen really come out firing. That pen is so stacked. If they put it together… Scary.
But yes. Ramon ramirez who came in the crisp deal will be our righty setup man. That’s pretty much a done deal unless bard or delcarmen really come out firing. That pen is so stacked. If they put it together… Scary.
Bonser has to show a lot in spring training to lock down a pen spot in Boston. I disagree with you on that. Without an amazing spring, he’s probably heading back to waivers.
Ram Ram isn’t gonna be the righty setup man, he’ll be more of a 6th/7th guy along with MDC probably. The 8th inning will belong to Bard & Okajima. That leaves 2 open spots. They might want to give one of them to another lefty in which case Richardson or Shouse will get one of the 2 spots and then I figured Bonser for the last spot since he can be a long man.
Ram Ram isn’t gonna be the righty setup man, he’ll be more of a 6th/7th guy along with MDC probably. The 8th inning will belong to Bard & Okajima. That leaves 2 open spots. They might want to give one of them to another lefty in which case Richardson or Shouse will get one of the 2 spots and then I figured Bonser for the last spot since he can be a long man.
Bonser has to show a lot in spring training to lock down a pen spot in Boston. I disagree with you on that. Without an amazing spring, he’s probably heading back to waivers.
I believe your thinking of the original Ramon Ramirez, the one we got for Coco Crisp. THAT Ramon Ramirez has a bullpen spot on lock. Ramon A. Ramirez, aka Ramon Ramierz II, has a pretty slim chance of landing the last bullpen spot which will most likely go to Bonser in my opinion.
He certainly has intriguing mL peripherals.
“He Will Change how the game of baseball is played, forever. look, Theo Epstien has never made a wrong decision, his genius is something we mere mortals cannot understand” – Peter Gammons
I haven’t seen this article, but I certainly think Theo Epstein has had a huge influence on how teams that want to win have established themselves. I keep reading articles on how many GM’s (including Cashman) struggle with maintaining a strong team and a strong farm at the same time. As of right now, the Sox and Rangers are the only two teams that successfully will put out a potential 90+ win franchise while maintaining a top 5 farm system. Theo has the luxury of a little bigger wallet to work with, but overall he’s only made 2 bad decisions to date: 1) Eric Gagne, 2) Julio Lugo.
Every other MLB contract (at least according to FanGraphs) has paid itself off and then some. Thats a pretty good rate I’d say considering he’s been the GM for 7 years? Was Renteria a mistake of his? I don’t blame that one on Theo however, because anyone could have made that mistake. Renteria is an elite caliber athlete who seemed worthy of the attention he was given.
Edgar Renteria
I mentioned him didn’t I? I wasn’t sure if he was theos work, tho I’d imagine so. That’s an understandable mistake. Kinda like giambi, where yanks didn’t know he was on roids and would decline the way he did. Can’t blame cash for that one
Edgar Renteria, I began to say, was a mistake. Maybe it’s a mistake you make 9 times out of 10 in Theo’s situation, but it still goes down as a mistake.
If you are going to give a person credit for low-probability signs or trades that pan out bigger rewards than expected, to be consistent you’ll need to hold that person responsible for high-probability signings or trades that do not pan out.
Was having your two most dominant hitters at 3-4 and having a clutch hitter in Ortiz (ranks as one of the best clutch playoff hittting performances ever) on drugs and cheating part of Theo’s genius, or was that just an added bonus amongst all his great moves?
A clean WS win might add to Theo’s greatness, but until then, he is just another baseball exec that turned a blind eye to what was going on within his own organization. Much like the Commissioner, er owner, nope, make that Commissioner, Bud Selig.
Was having your two most dominant hitters at 3-4 and having a clutch hitter in Ortiz (ranks as one of the best clutch playoff hittting performances ever) on drugs and cheating part of Theo’s genius, or was that just an added bonus amongst all his great moves?
A clean WS win might add to Theo’s greatness, but until then, he is just another baseball exec that turned a blind eye to what was going on within his own organization. Much like the Commissioner, er owner, nope, make that Commissioner, Bud Selig.
Gammons is not yet sure if Fien will part of the 2027 Hall of Fame Class that includes Lars Anderson, Josh Bard and Michael Bowden, or the 2029 Class that includes Ryan Kalish, Ryan Westmoreland and Casey Kelley.
I wonder how great a GM Theo would have been had he not been handed a team with an in his prime Manny Ramirez.
Oh wait, I forgot, Manny is bad and not a true Red Sox player.
You take Manny out of the lineup and there are no, I repeat, no world series championships in Boston.
They should have retired his number and put a plaque up for that guy already.
When Theo wins a title without an in their prime Ortiz/Ramirez 3/4 in the order, then I’ll give him props. I’m not a Red Sox fan, but I’m willing to concede that is the greatest 3-4 I’ve ever seen in my lifetime. Tex/Arod don’t even come close in comparison.
I wonder how great a GM Theo would have been had he not been handed a team with an in his prime Manny Ramirez.
Oh wait, I forgot, Manny is bad and not a true Red Sox player.
You take Manny out of the lineup and there are no, I repeat, no world series championships in Boston.
They should have retired his number and put a plaque up for that guy already.
When Theo wins a title without an in their prime Ortiz/Ramirez 3/4 in the order, then I’ll give him props. I’m not a Red Sox fan, but I’m willing to concede that is the greatest 3-4 I’ve ever seen in my lifetime. Tex/Arod don’t even come close in comparison.
Solid move. Not like this has any kind of risk attached is it. If he can figure it out in the bigs, he’ll be a good bullpen arm.
The Sox are very focused on fulfilling these next 2 years (3 including last year) with low risk – high gain players (Smoltz and Penny last year, Cameron and Beltre this year). He knows there will be plenty of years we will run away with the division. Conveniently, it comes along at the same time when the Yankees Mega-Deals will turn to bad contracts (see CC Sabathia, Mark Teixeira, A-Rod, Jeter, maybe Mo… cant count him out as a potential best closer in baseball even at 60). They will have a lot of money committed to a lot of age 37-42 players as the Sox will have Casey Kelly, Jose Iglesias, Lars Anderson, Ryan Westmoreland among others joining the long term signed Youkilis, Lester, Pedroia, Lackey, ect. They will be a force to be reckoned with. Yankees are getting their wins in now before they collapse. You cannot sustain the kind of contracts they have and continue to build. They don’t have another year like last offseason coming where 40+ mil comes off the books and they can spend 500 mil. Thats not anywhere in the next 6-7 years, especially if they extend Jeter the way most analysts expect which is 4/100-6/125
The Red Sox do not need the Yankees to collapse in order to be successful. I wish more Red Sox fans would leave all that crap out of it.
Excellent analysis. Obviously Kelly, Iglesias, Anderson, Westmoreland, and the rest are going to be all-stars. No doubt about it. Nevermind the fact that the only one out of the group to ever play a game above A-ball put up an OPS of .673 in AA last year. Equally as obvious is the fact that in a few years the amazingly fit Kevin Youkilis will not be 34 years old, but rather he will just stay in his prime forever. Just ignore that Lackey spent parts of the last 2 years on the DL with throwing arm injuries. He will also continue to improve and remain injury free every year now that he is past 31
Don’t even worry about the Yankees, I’m sure they will just lay down and let the Sox ‘run away with the division.’ All that money that grows at the new Stadium will be useless because there will no longer be free-agency in baseball. The Yanks are stuck with the roster they put out this year for the next 5. The will never again have $40M+ come off the books again. Except, of course, after this year when they have $66M. It doesn’t count though because all $66M will go to Jeter. I really do pity those Yankee fans, its going to be a tough road ahead.
Excellent analysis. Obviously Kelly, Iglesias, Anderson, Westmoreland, and the rest are going to be all-stars. No doubt about it. Nevermind the fact that the only one out of the group to ever play a game above A-ball put up an OPS of .673 in AA last year. Equally as obvious is the fact that in a few years the amazingly fit Kevin Youkilis will not be 34 years old, but rather he will just stay in his prime forever. Just ignore that Lackey spent parts of the last 2 years on the DL with throwing arm injuries. He will also continue to improve and remain injury free every year now that he is past 31
Don’t even worry about the Yankees, I’m sure they will just lay down and let the Sox ‘run away with the division.’ All that money that grows at the new Stadium will be useless because there will no longer be free-agency in baseball. The Yanks are stuck with the roster they put out this year for the next 5. The will never again have $40M+ come off the books again. Except, of course, after this year when they have $66M. It doesn’t count though because all $66M will go to Jeter. I really do pity those Yankee fans, its going to be a tough road ahead.
First of all, Keith Law is Theo’s best friend. No one takes his list seriously. He ranked the Red Sox ahead of the Rays which shows how biased he is. The Rays farm system puts the rest of baseball’s to shame.
Second, don’t get your hopes up that the Yankees are going to fall apart in 5 years. They won’t. They already have Jesus Montero coming up. A legitimate middle of the order positional prospect with power you don’t see without the use of PED’s. They also have OF prospects just as exciting and in fact healthier than Westmoreland coming up, but you wouldn’t know about that because you get your info from Keith Law who had a Red Sox logo carved into his scalp.
Montero, Cano, Texiera, Granderson will be just a part of the offense as it goes forward.
The Yankees will most likely sign Carl Crawford and Cliff Lee this off season when Javy Vasquez (who will net them 2 picks) leaves as a free agent and Andy Pettitte retires. They’ll barely have to increase payroll to sign the two of them, unlike the Red Sox who had to increase payroll buying Lackey, Scutaro, Cameron, Beltre, not to mention all the players they pay to play for other teams that most Boston fans casually forget about.
And you think the Yankees aren’t going to sign and develop more players in the coming seasons? You think they are just going to stand pat and lose?
Yes, Arod and Jeter being signed into their 40’s is problematic — it’s not a team killer though. The Yankees have worked around large contracts for years and still build winners. They had Giambi, Pavano, Igawa, etc. all eating up tons of payroll and they were still winning. They didn’t have to pay those players to leave town.
It’s great you’re excited about the Red Sox future, but just be aware that you’re putting a lot of faith in A ball players. 1 out of every 10 prospects make it. A lot happens between A ball and the bigs.
And if you’re getting your info from Law and Gammons, prepare to be disappointed. Gammons once called Manny Delcarmen the “best reliever in the game”….He also claimed Craig Hanser could come up shortly after being drafted and dominate in the pen and change the entire pennant race….let’s not forget his odes to Willy Mo Pena from the past or any of the other Red Sox can’t miss prospects who were all targeted to be all stars.
Considering how much they have overhyped Iglesias, I expect him to be Rey Ordonez at best which isn’t a lot.
You’re assuming every prospect in the Red Sox universe comes up and succeeds, stays healthy and doesn’t get traded at some point…
If you want Adrian Gonzales as bad as most Red Sox fans do, you do realize 1/2 the prospects you mentioned will be in San Diego by the time your great Yankee decline should be happening.
I hate to break it to you, but the Yankees already had their decline. They’ve rebuilt the organization and the team and are now running the show with an eye on flexibility while maintaining star power. The Yankees had more home grown players on their roster last season than any other team other than Colorado. And there are more young players coming. The Yankees have the market cornered on young catching prospects. At some point, they are going to turn them into players from other teams which will also help them.
But the biggest problem with your theory that the Red Sox will dominate the future is the Rays will keep getting better every year and so will the Orioles.
This is another reason to leave the Yankees out of your talk of the Red Sox future success, B_L_L. Invariably it results in a handful of long-winded Yankees fans jotting up a couple walls of text and high-fiving each other. Also in this instance they’re pretty much right.
Fanbase rivalries are the most tedious aspect of baseball.
This is another reason to leave the Yankees out of your talk of the Red Sox future success, B_L_L. Invariably it results in a handful of long-winded Yankees fans jotting up a couple walls of text and high-fiving each other. Also in this instance they’re pretty much right.
Fanbase rivalries are the most tedious aspect of baseball.
First of all, Keith Law is Theo’s best friend. No one takes his list seriously. He ranked the Red Sox ahead of the Rays which shows how biased he is. The Rays farm system puts the rest of baseball’s to shame.
Second, don’t get your hopes up that the Yankees are going to fall apart in 5 years. They won’t. They already have Jesus Montero coming up. A legitimate middle of the order positional prospect with power you don’t see without the use of PED’s. They also have OF prospects just as exciting and in fact healthier than Westmoreland coming up, but you wouldn’t know about that because you get your info from Keith Law who had a Red Sox logo carved into his scalp.
Montero, Cano, Texiera, Granderson will be just a part of the offense as it goes forward.
The Yankees will most likely sign Carl Crawford and Cliff Lee this off season when Javy Vasquez (who will net them 2 picks) leaves as a free agent and Andy Pettitte retires. They’ll barely have to increase payroll to sign the two of them, unlike the Red Sox who had to increase payroll buying Lackey, Scutaro, Cameron, Beltre, not to mention all the players they pay to play for other teams that most Boston fans casually forget about.
And you think the Yankees aren’t going to sign and develop more players in the coming seasons? You think they are just going to stand pat and lose?
Yes, Arod and Jeter being signed into their 40’s is problematic — it’s not a team killer though. The Yankees have worked around large contracts for years and still build winners. They had Giambi, Pavano, Igawa, etc. all eating up tons of payroll and they were still winning. They didn’t have to pay those players to leave town.
It’s great you’re excited about the Red Sox future, but just be aware that you’re putting a lot of faith in A ball players. 1 out of every 10 prospects make it. A lot happens between A ball and the bigs.
And if you’re getting your info from Law and Gammons, prepare to be disappointed. Gammons once called Manny Delcarmen the “best reliever in the game”….He also claimed Craig Hanser could come up shortly after being drafted and dominate in the pen and change the entire pennant race….let’s not forget his odes to Willy Mo Pena from the past or any of the other Red Sox can’t miss prospects who were all targeted to be all stars.
Considering how much they have overhyped Iglesias, I expect him to be Rey Ordonez at best which isn’t a lot.
You’re assuming every prospect in the Red Sox universe comes up and succeeds, stays healthy and doesn’t get traded at some point…
If you want Adrian Gonzales as bad as most Red Sox fans do, you do realize 1/2 the prospects you mentioned will be in San Diego by the time your great Yankee decline should be happening.
I hate to break it to you, but the Yankees already had their decline. They’ve rebuilt the organization and the team and are now running the show with an eye on flexibility while maintaining star power. The Yankees had more home grown players on their roster last season than any other team other than Colorado. And there are more young players coming. The Yankees have the market cornered on young catching prospects. At some point, they are going to turn them into players from other teams which will also help them.
But the biggest problem with your theory that the Red Sox will dominate the future is the Rays will keep getting better every year and so will the Orioles.
And by sustain, I’m referring to their 25th or 27th ranked (depending which source you use) farm system, and the Sox number 2 or 3 (depending again which source you use) farm system.
I haven’t seen anyone rating the Sox system that high at the moment, or the Yankees system that low. Mostly both of them around middle of the pack, with Sox a few spots better.
You have to be an ESPN insider to view Keith Law, but he’s the one who ranked Boston 2. And Yanks 24 or 25 (My mets where right there too). I’d post the link, but then I’ll get moderated. Just Google (just did it, do exactly) espn 2010 farm system rankings. You will ge the same list, however again, can only view it if you are an insider.
The other list is Baseball America I believe, but I’m at work. I’ll have to get you that one later.
Its the first link that comes up.
11.3 innings, huh?
11.3 innings, huh?
If you put the sox players that are 26 and younger against the yankees top players 26 and younger, the clear edge is to the Sox.
I am going with 26 b/c everyone is arguing about what will be happening in 7 to 10 years; therefore to be realistic you have to go with players that will be at most 36 years old. Yes if you are gifted and stay in shape you can have valuable years after 36, but i think we can all agree that the most significant years of production *unless you are getting some artificial help* come before age 36.
Red Sox:
1 Pedroia
2 Lester
3 Ellsbury
4 Buchholz
5 Bard
6 Reddick (based only on having some MLB time and no1 else does)
7 Kelly (from here on i’m not really ranking, just listing)
8 Iglesias
9 Westmoreland
10 Kalish
Yanks (I don’t know enough about the yanks system to rank them 1 thru 10 and be correct, so i am sort of just listing them after the first few)
1 Joba
2 Hughes
3 Montero
4 Gardner
5 Romine
6 Vizcaino
7 Heathcott
8 McAllister
9 Banuelos
10 Sanchez/Murphy
Now, i am really trying to not be biased, but if somebody told me i could have either list to start my franchise I am easily going with the Red Sox list.
Again trying to not be biased, but
-Pedroia is already a ROY, MVP, Gold Glover, multi year All Star
-Lester playoff experience, and is a Cy young candidate w/o ANY RESTRICTIONS
-Ellsbury has already stolen 70 bags in a year and hit .300
-Buchholz has a no hitter,a good playoff start and should be a solid #2,3 starter until his mid 30’s
-Bard is somewhat unknown as of now, however he throws 100mph w/ movement and should be the closer of the future.
So lets say only 2 of the other 5 listed pan out to be good (not even great) MLB players; you already have your #1 and #2 starter for years to come, You have your #1 and #2 hitters in your lineup for years to come, and your closer for years to come. As well as 2 of: gold glove ss, starting cf, starting rf, or your #3 starting pitcher.
Now for the Yanks:
– you have two great arms in Joba(RESTRICITIONS***) and Hughes, but have either of them proved to be consistent for a full year at either starting or relieving? Lets say Joba turns out to be the closer of the future and Hughes is your #1 starter (or the other way around, whichever fits your fancy).
-Montero; You have a middle of the order bat, that by the scouting reports i have read seems destined to be the DH *maybe he catches for a couple years (benefit of the doubt)
-Gardner is your starting CF, decent, i’d take Ellsbury all day tho
-Romine is probably your catcher of the future.
-So to be fair you have 2 of your 5 others listed to be good not great players.
You have maybe your ace and a number 3,4 starter; your cleanup hitter, starting catcher is a maybe at this point, a couple of’s and an above avg closer.
I honestly think that there is no way to look at it where you come to any conclusion except that the Sox have (at the very least) a very large head start in building toward their futures. There are some sox fans that think that every prospect the team has will be a MLB star, but i do not have that outlook.
But hey, even if half the list of ten turns out to be what they should, the sox have the clear advantage. It doesn’t matter what team you cheer for, or what way you look at it.
Those lists completely ignore free agent signings and international signings as tools for building a team in the future. For big market teams like the Yankees and Sox that have money to spend it is a poor tool for comparison. If you want to compare the Rays to the Nationals over the next 5-6 years then it will work nicely.
“Those lists completely ignore free agent signings and international signings”
It doesn’t ignore them; they don’t exist yet to be ignored. It couldn’t possibly account for them, only for their possibility — which was already obvious to everyone.
Except maybe oooone person…
“Those lists completely ignore free agent signings and international signings”
It doesn’t ignore them; they don’t exist yet to be ignored. It couldn’t possibly account for them, only for their possibility — which was already obvious to everyone.
Except maybe oooone person…
Those lists completely ignore free agent signings and international signings as tools for building a team in the future. For big market teams like the Yankees and Sox that have money to spend it is a poor tool for comparison. If you want to compare the Rays to the Nationals over the next 5-6 years then it will work nicely.
Vizcaino was traded to Atlanta. Mooks already mentioned it, but you’re completely ignoring free agency, trades, future drafts, and international signings. You can’t really gauge how good a team is going to be in ten years, then ignore all of the factors included in building a team.
Jesus. Yes, it did not account for the unknown. An outrageous oversight by any standard.
Jesus. Yes, it did not account for the unknown. An outrageous oversight by any standard.
Vizcaino was traded to Atlanta. Mooks already mentioned it, but you’re completely ignoring free agency, trades, future drafts, and international signings. You can’t really gauge how good a team is going to be in ten years, then ignore all of the factors included in building a team.
Ronny,
Your lists are silly since they don’t factor in all the potential moves both teams will make as far as acquiring new players and losing current players.
For instance, you’re assuming Ellsbury is going to be there. He’s a Boras client. Name me one Boras client who signed with his team long term and didn’t test free agency. Ellsbury, if they don’t trade him first, will only be with the Red Sox up until free agency when Boras will sell him for the highest dollar. You’re also assuming Buchholtz won’t be traded or leave via free agency.
Assuming Bard is your closer is a huge assumption. How about letting him actually pitch a full season in the majors before anointing him anything? Relief pitching is volatile from year to year. Consistency and good health is rare in that position.
You’re just making a ton of assumptions that are silly at this point. Predicting where your team will be 3-5 years from now is just silly.
Predicting where it will be this season is a more valid argument as the teams are basically built pending any injuries or in season trades/signings.
The poster was acting like it’s a foregone conclusion that every Red Sox prospect will pan out to be amazing in the future. That is not going to happen. If one of Kelly or Westmoreland turn into an impact player, you’ll be lucky. They’re both coming from A ball for crying out loud.
Boston fans need to stop puffing their chests about their future potential and focus on the season at hand. You keep drinking that Gammons flavored Kool Aid you’re gonna be real disappointed. He’s been wrong way more times about Boston prospects than right.
“Your lists are silly since they don’t factor in all the potential moves both teams will make as far as acquiring new players and losing current players.”
…Because…they…can’t. How many people are going to criticize an analysis for not doing the impossible.
“The poster was acting like it’s a foregone conclusion that every Red Sox prospect will pan out to be amazing in the future.”
Sounded more like “whether or not they pan out, we have better prospects who are more likely to pan out than yours/theirs”. I agree anyway though that it’s not a worthwhile argument.
“Boston fans need to stop puffing their chests about their future potential and focus on the season at hand.”
Not just Boston fans, but yes.
I think everyone realizes that you cannot analyze things that have not happened yet. Everyone is just pointing out that there are going to be a lot of other things that need to be considered before you say that “you cannot come to any conclusion except that the Sox have (at the very least) a very large head start in building toward their futures.” The only conclusion you can come to with the list is that the Sox have better players under the age of 26, which I will give you. Things such as the Steinbrenner’s bank account, the new Stadium, and the YES Network are going to probably be a lot more important in building the future than a handful of prospects who have yet to play a game above A-ball.
“Everyone is just pointing out that there are going to be a lot of other things that need to be considered before you say that “you cannot come to any conclusion except that the Sox have (at the very least) a very large head start in building toward their futures.” The only conclusion you can come to with the list is that the Sox have better players under the age of 26, which I will give you.”
Really? You wouldn’t say “the Sox have better players under the age of 26” supports the claim that “the Sox have (at the very least) a very large head start in building toward their futures”? Even if it doesn’t mean much, it makes sense to me.
I understood the purpose of pointing out drafts trades & signings. Those things exist and are self-evident factors; there’s no reason to cite them. There is no way to incorporate them into a comparison of two teams as they currently exist, which is what he was doing.
I think what the people responding have been trying to say is something like “we don’t care if your younger players are better because our team is committed to acquiring the best talent by any means available and at any cost.” That response makes sense and is correct. But it doesn’t pass as a criticism of a comparison of the two teams’ current young players, which is how it’s been offered.
Reverand.
Thanks for all of the support yesterday. I have only gotten online now since i posted my “lists”.
Yes they do not take into effect all of the variables that are impossible to predict. Mel Kiper can’t even get 50 percent of a NFL first round correct, how am i supposed to know what trades/signings/drafts will happen for the next 5 to 7 years?
I was only trying to point out, and i saw that you quoted it a couple of times: The sox have a head start on the Yanks as they build toward the future. It is not fair for me to take into account “the future success of players who haven’t played above A ball” but at least i am counting players who actually play in the Sox’ organization!!. and i don’t have to bank on players that are either playing in another organization or are currently 13 years old (or less).
The Sox do have a head start in building their team, is it a complete and accurate science? NO: but it’s accurate enough to show anyone with the ability to clearly consume thoughts, that while there is no way to tell which team will be better in 2017, that at the least, the sox DO HAVE a head start.
I disagree with you completely. Your “head start” is still full of assumptions based on artificial rankings by the likes of Gammons and Keith Law who are not astute judges of talent, but are instead closet and non-closeted Red Sox fans.
Have you seen all this young talent of the Red Sox’s actually play or are you basing your predictions on written words by overcooked fanboys posing as the press?
You certainly have not seen Iglesias play. I doubt you’ve seen Kelly or Westmoreland. Lars Anderson isn’t the player the Red Sox touted him to be, otherwise they wouldn’t be drooling over Adrian Gonzales. The Red sox wouldn’t have been forced to trade for Victor Martinez had the catching or 1b pipeline been as ripe as we’ve been told.
My point is this — the Red Sox “future” is hype generated by people who have a vested interest in seeing the Red Sox win.
To assume that all the printed word hype is going to come to fruition is silly.
I can go through the Orioles, Rays and Yankees and find just as many “can’t miss” prospects as I can on the Red Sox.
They have no advantage other than a financial one over teams other than the Yankees.
“Everyone is just pointing out that there are going to be a lot of other things that need to be considered before you say that “you cannot come to any conclusion except that the Sox have (at the very least) a very large head start in building toward their futures.” The only conclusion you can come to with the list is that the Sox have better players under the age of 26, which I will give you.”
Really? You wouldn’t say “the Sox have better players under the age of 26” supports the claim that “the Sox have (at the very least) a very large head start in building toward their futures”? Even if it doesn’t mean much, it makes sense to me.
I understood the purpose of pointing out drafts trades & signings. Those things exist and are self-evident factors; there’s no reason to cite them. There is no way to incorporate them into a comparison of two teams as they currently exist, which is what he was doing.
I think what the people responding have been trying to say is something like “we don’t care if your younger players are better because our team is committed to acquiring the best talent by any means available and at any cost.” That response makes sense and is correct. But it doesn’t pass as a criticism of a comparison of the two teams’ current young players, which is how it’s been offered.
I think everyone realizes that you cannot analyze things that have not happened yet. Everyone is just pointing out that there are going to be a lot of other things that need to be considered before you say that “you cannot come to any conclusion except that the Sox have (at the very least) a very large head start in building toward their futures.” The only conclusion you can come to with the list is that the Sox have better players under the age of 26, which I will give you. Things such as the Steinbrenner’s bank account, the new Stadium, and the YES Network are going to probably be a lot more important in building the future than a handful of prospects who have yet to play a game above A-ball.
Ronny,
Your lists are silly since they don’t factor in all the potential moves both teams will make as far as acquiring new players and losing current players.
For instance, you’re assuming Ellsbury is going to be there. He’s a Boras client. Name me one Boras client who signed with his team long term and didn’t test free agency. Ellsbury, if they don’t trade him first, will only be with the Red Sox up until free agency when Boras will sell him for the highest dollar. You’re also assuming Buchholtz won’t be traded or leave via free agency.
Assuming Bard is your closer is a huge assumption. How about letting him actually pitch a full season in the majors before anointing him anything? Relief pitching is volatile from year to year. Consistency and good health is rare in that position.
You’re just making a ton of assumptions that are silly at this point. Predicting where your team will be 3-5 years from now is just silly.
Predicting where it will be this season is a more valid argument as the teams are basically built pending any injuries or in season trades/signings.
The poster was acting like it’s a foregone conclusion that every Red Sox prospect will pan out to be amazing in the future. That is not going to happen. If one of Kelly or Westmoreland turn into an impact player, you’ll be lucky. They’re both coming from A ball for crying out loud.
Boston fans need to stop puffing their chests about their future potential and focus on the season at hand. You keep drinking that Gammons flavored Kool Aid you’re gonna be real disappointed. He’s been wrong way more times about Boston prospects than right.
If you put the sox players that are 26 and younger against the yankees top players 26 and younger, the clear edge is to the Sox.
I am going with 26 b/c everyone is arguing about what will be happening in 7 to 10 years; therefore to be realistic you have to go with players that will be at most 36 years old. Yes if you are gifted and stay in shape you can have valuable years after 36, but i think we can all agree that the most significant years of production *unless you are getting some artificial help* come before age 36.
Red Sox:
1 Pedroia
2 Lester
3 Ellsbury
4 Buchholz
5 Bard
6 Reddick (based only on having some MLB time and no1 else does)
7 Kelly (from here on i’m not really ranking, just listing)
8 Iglesias
9 Westmoreland
10 Kalish
Yanks (I don’t know enough about the yanks system to rank them 1 thru 10 and be correct, so i am sort of just listing them after the first few)
1 Joba
2 Hughes
3 Montero
4 Gardner
5 Romine
6 Vizcaino
7 Heathcott
8 McAllister
9 Banuelos
10 Sanchez/Murphy
Now, i am really trying to not be biased, but if somebody told me i could have either list to start my franchise I am easily going with the Red Sox list.
Again trying to not be biased, but
-Pedroia is already a ROY, MVP, Gold Glover, multi year All Star
-Lester playoff experience, and is a Cy young candidate w/o ANY RESTRICTIONS
-Ellsbury has already stolen 70 bags in a year and hit .300
-Buchholz has a no hitter,a good playoff start and should be a solid #2,3 starter until his mid 30’s
-Bard is somewhat unknown as of now, however he throws 100mph w/ movement and should be the closer of the future.
So lets say only 2 of the other 5 listed pan out to be good (not even great) MLB players; you already have your #1 and #2 starter for years to come, You have your #1 and #2 hitters in your lineup for years to come, and your closer for years to come. As well as 2 of: gold glove ss, starting cf, starting rf, or your #3 starting pitcher.
Now for the Yanks:
– you have two great arms in Joba(RESTRICITIONS***) and Hughes, but have either of them proved to be consistent for a full year at either starting or relieving? Lets say Joba turns out to be the closer of the future and Hughes is your #1 starter (or the other way around, whichever fits your fancy).
-Montero; You have a middle of the order bat, that by the scouting reports i have read seems destined to be the DH *maybe he catches for a couple years (benefit of the doubt)
-Gardner is your starting CF, decent, i’d take Ellsbury all day tho
-Romine is probably your catcher of the future.
-So to be fair you have 2 of your 5 others listed to be good not great players.
You have maybe your ace and a number 3,4 starter; your cleanup hitter, starting catcher is a maybe at this point, a couple of’s and an above avg closer.
I honestly think that there is no way to look at it where you come to any conclusion except that the Sox have (at the very least) a very large head start in building toward their futures. There are some sox fans that think that every prospect the team has will be a MLB star, but i do not have that outlook.
But hey, even if half the list of ten turns out to be what they should, the sox have the clear advantage. It doesn’t matter what team you cheer for, or what way you look at it.
How do teams like the Pirates makes claims on players like Jakubauskas, but pass on Fien? That makes absolutely no sense to me.
How do teams like the Pirates makes claims on players like Jakubauskas, but pass on Fien? That makes absolutely no sense to me.