SATURDAY, 1:13pm: Neal reports that Washburn has turned down Minnesota's offer.
FRIDAY, 4:08pm: Neal hears that the Twins made Washburn a one-year offer worth about $5MM. Neal hears that talks have been "pretty much dead" since the club made the initial offer.
THURSDAY, 10:28am: La Velle E. Neal III of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune spoke to several Twins people yesterday and "received NO indications that an offer has been made." Talking to MLB.com's Kelly Thesier, Washburn would not comment on Miller's report but said the Twins are "definitely one of the teams at the top of my list of places I'd like to end up."
TUESDAY, 10:35pm: The Twins made an offer to lefty Jarrod Washburn, reports Scott Miller of CBSSports.com. Miller doesn't have the details, though I'd say Washburn is a candidate for a one-year deal in the $6-7MM range. Then again, he's represented by Scott Boras. The Twins claimed Washburn off waivers from the Mariners in August of '08, but a deal could not be reached.
The Twins would have decent rotation depth with Washburn, since Carl Pavano accepted arbitration earlier this winter. Miller believes the depth might allow the Twins to trade for a third baseman. Kevin Kouzmanoff is the oft-discussed name, though Dan Uggla or Mat Gamel could make sense in my opinion.
Washburn might be considered similar to Doug Davis and Jon Garland; the Brewers are expected to sign one of the three. The Mets could also enter the mix.
Washburn to Twins
Davis to Mets
Garland to Brewers
trade Glen Perkins and Anthony Swarzak and Danny Valencia for Dan Uggla
no dan uggla, not what the twins need. Why would we get rid of Danny Valencia when he’s our best prospect/ready for 3rd base.
Because he’s 25 years old and is not their best prospect and has done nothing to prove he’s completely major league ready
thats too much for Uggla but it would be a popular move with fans.
I disagree with you. Glen Perkins fits nowwhere in the Twins rotation and has value. Danny Valencia Needs to be used to reel in a big bat for Minnesota since they lost out on Adrian beltre. What about if the twins sign Miguel Tejada?
I would like a Tejada signing. I think Tejada would be a nice fit with the club as he has shown a consistent ability to hit at or near .300 with some pop. He also always has a nice OPS and OBP two things the twins value. Any combo of the following would work for me regarding the 2B and 3B holes.
TEJADA 3B
PUNTO 2B
TEJADA 3B
CABRERA 2B
CREDE 3B
PUNTO 2B
CREDE 3B
CABRERA 2B
CREDE 3B
UGGLA 2B
TEJADA 3B
UGGLA 2B
(how great would that last one be, definitely the most unprobable I’m afraid.)
A Tejada/Uggla infield might be an offensive upgrade from 2009, but it would also be a really poor defensive one. Tejada’s defense at SS has been declining each year, and while a move to 3B might make sense from a range standpoint, it doesn’t automatically mean he’ll be a good 3B. In regards to Uggla, he was the second worst defensive 2B in baseball last season (according to FanGraphs). For a team like the Twins, they need good defense to stay competitive with their richer neighbors.
I agree. If the Twins do go for a 3rd baseman, I think it should be a trade for Kouz. His defense really blossomed last season and he should really come into his own as a hitter with a move out of safeco.
i have a question for twins fans
is the new target field a hitters park, pitchers park, or neutral? just wondering.
Since there have been zero games played there, I’m going with neutral.
nah..trade joe mauer, justin morneau, and cuddyer for Dan Ugly and PTBNL
ahh what?
I like the signing. Would Melvin Mora be considered for the 3B job for around a 1y 4m contract? Would that be “overpaying” cosidering he is 37?
He’s not $4m good anymore. After 500AB last year that shows he can’t field the position and hit at an average level, he’s got some proving to do. The age just lowers his chances to bounce back.
Seems like the twins have a busy week coming up
about time huh?
Uggla would be a nice bat for that lineup. Uggla would probably play second with Joe Crede (if resigned) /Nick Punto/Brendan Harris taking third. Twins have seen a philosophical shift from scrappy get um on get um over get um in guys to some serious thunder up and down the lineup. Even without Uggla, the twins have Kubel Mauer Morneau Cuddyer and yes even Young capable of smacking 25 homers/25 doubles next year. This is by far the most powerful small market team in all of baseball right now.
The Twins play in a cavern, right? How good is their OF defense? If it’s good, this is a good pickup for something like 2/12 or below. Washburn is an extreme flyball pitcher who can get a lot of outs when he has a good OF defense backing him.
The Twins outfield is going to be brutal. Delmon & Cuddyer have almost no range, and Span has average to slightly above average range. The dimensions at Target Field will be similar to those at the Metrodome, but who knows how it’ll play…
We already have lots of younger, cheaper soft-tossing flyball pitchers who don’t miss many bats. This just seems like a waste of money. May as well just spend another $2 mil and go after Sheets if you think you need a veteran lefty…
Span in center will make up for any lost range by Cuddyer and Young. Not our best defensive outfield in terms of speed but all three have flat out CANNONS for arms.
Doubtful. Span’s range in left & right were way, way above average, but his range in CF isn’t nearly as impressive. Gomez could cover that ground, but Span cannot.
Range is range, center left or right…Gomez is gone no more need to talk about him. Span is a plus defender, and teams won’t plan to challenge Cuddyer and Young going first to third as they can make them pay with strong accurate throws. You don’t remember all those outfield assists those two had last season?? 18 runners gunned down at either 2nd 3rd or home. That’s very good!
no one doubts their arms. outdoor fields of those dimensions play to the hitters advantage…balls that used to die in the outfield at the Metrodome will often carry at Target Field– thus outfield range could be an issue.
Agreed. The team would be spending a lot of money to aquire something they already have plenty of. They would be much better off putting the money toward infield help. For the money that’s being discussed to land Washburn, they could land Hudson – and that would help the team much more than Wasburn.
Wrong, target field will be a hitters park.
there was two of the same posts by different writers. ha ive never seen mlbtr do that before. im surprised washburn is not getting as much attention as he should. He had a good walk year. Well, good enough for a 3 year deal to match Wolf’s. The Mets could be suitors for him if he doesn’t mind going far from Wisconsin. Maybe the Padres they said they were looking for a veteran pitcher.
Washburn makes me cringe. He’s a fly ball pitcher that would be moving from a pitcher friendly Safeco Park to what looks like it will be a much more hitter friendly Target field. His numbers at Safeco also look like a fluke to me.
wasburn didnt play in safeco park…he was with the tigers..right?
He was with the M’s, then was traded later in the season to the Tigers.
Why???? We do not need to spend money on a 35 year old fly ball pitcher coming off an injury. You do not advance in the playoffs with 5 average pitchers. Liriano is our only pitcher with ace potential and despite is solid winter ball so far he cant be counted on.. Slowey, Baker, Blackburn, and Pavano are all solid but we need a power pitcher to match up with CC Sabathia and Josh Beckett if we want to make a run in the playoffs. Bedard at least gives you that ace potential and he will probably come at the same price if not cheaper.. Honestly, I would rather let liriano, perkins and duensing battle it out for the fifth spot than washburn. Take a chance for once Bill, enough of these old, washed up guys.
>>Take a chance for once Bill, enough of these old, washed up guys.
Actually he’s already got his old crafty veteran for 2010 in Pavano. This is just security blanket country and it needs to stop before we start looking like Detroit. We don’t have the money to surround our key players with expensive artifacts from years gone by.
I agree totally, except about Bedard. Let the 3 lefties they have compete for that 5th rotation spot. At least Liriano and Duensing.
Prelude to the Liriano/Jose Lopez deal we heard rumors about?
Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Pavano & Washburn right?
Baker (career 4.30 FIP)
Slowey (career 4.33 FIP)
Washburn (career 4.60 FIP)
Blackburn (career 4.39 FIP)
Pavano (career 4.17 FIP)
what an impressive collection of #3/4 starters…they better hope Target Field plays big, really big
Twins have the pitching, just need to regain some 2008 form. Slowey and Baker are not #3/#4 starters. I think with the lineup the twins will be using next season a rotation with 5 #3’s with upside will win more games that a team with a true 1-5 rotation.
by #3/4, I mean they have no true #1 or #2. apparently, you agree. Pavano and Washburn could easily regress to #4/5 in 2010.
Well you would have to admit, having Pavano and Washburn as your 4/5 starters is a nice position to be in. Many teams are in much dire straits.
yep, unfortunately for the Twins the White Sox are not one of those teams
I’m really not afraid of the white sox, they always find new ways to lose. Peavy is gonna get lit up next year playing at the cell against AL teams. Just watch it happen.
starting pitchers moving from the NL to the AL have been shown to take about a 0.4 hit in ERA on average. His career ERA is 3.26…so he will likely be about a 3.66 ERA pitcher–pretty good.
But when you go from Petco (best pitchers park in NL) to the Cell (best hitters park in the AL?) it’s gonna be more than a .4 bump. I still expect him to be a true ace since he’ll still pile up k’s, but era in the 3.80 – 3.90 range, but he’ll never reach the stud numbers he piled up on the west coast.
I don’t really understand that point either. Peavy will be a hell of a lot better than Pavano, Washburn, Blackburn–and possibly Slowey and Baker. Don’t get me wrong, I like the latter two, but if Peavy is healthy, he’s a top-notch pitcher.
WSox had the 3rd best FIP in the AL (with Colon and Contreras and without Peavy most of the year), Twins 8th in FIP and moving to a hitters’ ballpark. The math seems easy there…
Peavy is not going to get lit up. He’ll be their best pitcher until he gets hurt.
We should probably expect a fair K/BB drop, increased HR% and most important a pretty large LOB% loss. He wont get lit up, but I would expect an ERA somewhere in the 3.75-4.00 range.
Baker is a true no. 2 starter IMO. Before this last year I believe he was a top 40 starter. He couldn’t have dropped that far.
I like this signing for the Twins, considering he is most likely one of the “better” pitchers left on the FA Market. I think they will be pretty much set if they can fix those 2B/3B problems. By the way, I’d love to see the Twins make a move for Mark Reynolds. The D-Backs #2 prospect is Bobby Borchering, another 3B with exceptional power, who could be ready to move to the major leagues. Just wondering…. for something like 430,000, that would be an awesome pickup for the Twins! You may not like his defense or his strikeout ratio, but playing in Minnesota, a hitters ballpark, you could expect 45+ homeruns cosidering he is entering his prime years and Minnisota is a hitters ballpark. What do you think about this?
That’s a cool name to throw out there.
We don’t really know that Minny will have a hitter’s ballpark. I would say until a full season is played, it’s gonna be tough to say.
Forexample, nobody thought a thing about NY’s new stadium and look at all the routine fly balls that found their way over the left field wall. There could be some fluke in Minny as well.
That’s possible, but right now it’s dimensions look much more favorable to hitters, than pitchers. I have no idea what the Twins see in this guy.
I was actually a fan of Washburn while he was in the M’s. He was our most consistent pitcher besides Felix. However, he put up those numbers in Safeco, with Franklin “Death To Flying Things” Gutierrez, Ichiro “Ichiro” Suzuki, and Michael “The Condor” (stupid nickname) Saunders.
I really hope mets sign Doug Davis!
Uggla would be a good addition to the Twins. They would be my surprise pick for the World Series. If they did get him a line up could look like.
CF- Span
3B- Uggla
C- Mauer
1B- Morneau
DH- Kubel
RF- Cuddyer
SS- Hardy
LF- Young
2B- Harris/ Casilla/ Punto
If I were the GM I would do it but I’m not just a pissed off cubs fan
Uggla’s defense stinks. If the Twins do go for a 3rd baseman it should be Kouz.
Young For Kouz?
The Padres could use a right handed hitting outfielder
Twins do not have the outfield depth at the ML level to make a trade like this.
NO? Who is in the minors, in the wings in the outfield?
I, as a Padre fan, wanted Young before last year for Kouz.
The Twins’ top position prospects other than Wilson Ramos are mostly outfielders, but they’re a few years away. Tosoni is at AA, Morales, Revere, and Hicks are all around the single-A level. Morales & Hicks are very raw, to boot.
Yea I am familiar with Ramos, but that Padres just added another catcher so I am not sure if their would be a mutual interest anymore. Just stating that I would like Young.
IMO Kouz was robbed of the GG award and could really benefit from a “fair” park UNLIKE Petco!
I don’t know if I would call Kous not getting the Gold Glove getting robbed. Gold Gloves are a bit different than offensive awards. First off, they’re decided by coaches and managers. They are much harder to impress and are less likely to be swayed by a player having a career year in the field. It usually takes a few years of solid play just to get on their radar. Until a player establishes a consistency of excellence in the field, any big year he has is going to looked at as freakish.
Defense is also very hard to fully quantify by stats alone as well. There are little mental things that come into play. What good is leading the league at your position in range if you throw to the wrong base and allow base runners to advance? It will never show up in the stats, but if a player makes a habit out of it, no coach in his right mind would ever vote for him.
Kous had an amazing year defensively last year, but he also sucked every other year before that. If Kous can string another solid season or two to show 2009 wasn’t a fluke, then he should get his Gold Glove eventually.
Great defense is about Constancy. Doing the job day in and day out. While I can sympathize with the fans who believe the best defensive player gets the Gold Glove, I can’t discount the coaches sticking with the players that have established themselves either.
Nah, they really don’t. Several of our top prospects are outfielders, but they’re in the lower ranks. Aaron Hicks, Ben Revere, Angel Morales… all several years off.
You really don’t want Delmon’s terrible glove in left field anyway most likely.
The Twins could theoretically trade Delmon and play Kubel full-time in the outfield, but he’s hardly a defensive improvement and then we just have a hole to fill at DH as well.
Seems to make more sense to trade pitching if we go after Kouz, but I’m not big on Kouzmanoff anyway.
I would prefer the Padres target a lower level high upside arm from the Twins. The Twins dont have the outfield depth to solve the Padres problem (aside from Hicks who they are not moving for Kouz). But they have a couple of arms in the lower minors that have some serious upside (something you can never have too much of). Hunt or Gutierrez would be a nice haul, thou not sure how they are viewed by the Twins.
@zack money: Do the Twins have any other catchers then Wilson Ramos in the minors who in reality have a chance to make it (I assume that Ramos is again too much for Kouz)?
I’m assuming that Morales will be the backup catcher next year, and he’ll be okay at that. Butera is a decent defensive backstop but a horrible hitter. Horrible, putrid, terrible hitter. Not much beyond that that I know of.
Yea, thats what I thought. I think if any deal gets done for kouz to the twins it will be for pitching (just not Perkins)
Not going to happen. Young isn’t going anywhere.
Not gonna happen. Young is gonna have his breakout year in 2010. 25 years old and has 3 full years under his belt. I think when the Twins gave Young a vode of confidence, they made a wise move that will pay off very soon.
his defense won’t magically have a ‘breakout’…if anything, it will begin to get worse as he approaches age 30.
There are a lot of things wrong with a trade like that. The main one is you would be creating one hole to fill another. They need to trade from where they have a surplus.
Nooooooooo!!!!
Smith should either try for somebody with real potential to be an ace or stick with the pitchers we have and get someone like Hudson lopez or tejada (preference in that order)
I like signing Washburn. I know a lot of people are down on him, but he was great last year until he got hurt. Plus, it provides the team with even more pitching depth, allowing them to shuttle some young arms off to the bullpen or ship somebody out to fill other holes.
He was great last year in an enormous park with one of the best defensive outfields in recent history behind him.
His FIP was over two full runs higher than his ERA, and he posted a staggeringly low BABIP. Look at Washburn’s last four years and tell me what’s more of an anomaly:
Nearly four years of mediocre to terrible pitching, or two and a half months of a sparkly ERA?
Washburn isn’t going to help the Twins. Or any team, for that matter.
He’s not gonna help ANY TEAM?? Wow you really hate this guy! Why would you say such a terrible comment? He’s a very usable, durable, and reliable MLB starter.
I’m not a stat geek, so excuse me if I have no idea what you’re saying. What I do know is people are vastly underrating our outfielders and Target Field has similar dimensions to Safeco. Safeco is 331 down the left field line, compared to 339 for TF. Safeco is one foot deeper in dead center and two feet shorter down the right field line.
Again, I’m not counting on him to be a world beater, just a solid back of the rotation vet to provide another arm. People said going into last year that we had plenty of arms too and look how that turned out.
Safeco is also an indoor stadium and there is no wind factor.
Amen. Washburn solves nothing for the Twins.
Exactly right!~!
Washburn has never been great. His season last year was 80% luck, 10% defense and 10% Safeco. If Washburn is so great, why did the M’s trade him and even more curious, why don’t they just try to resign him again?
Ugh, if Smith goes out and signs Washburn, I’ll call for his head on a platter. There is no logic behind this whatsoever.Great idea Billy, sign an EXTREME fly ball pitcher to lob up 88mph fastballs so that our defensively inept outfield can get in some cardio in the outfield!Assuming Crede returns (which is looking more and more plausible), we’re going to have a very strong defensive infield. You want pitchers who are going to keep the ball on the ground. Blackburn and Pavano can do that. Baker and Slowey are already flyball pitchers, but can limit damage a bit because they both average about 2 more Ks per 9 than Washburn and both walk significantly fewer batters.What the hell is Bill Smith’s obsession with Jarrod Washburn? The guy is just flat-out NOT good. He doesn’t have impeccable control, doesn’t strike people out, pitches to contact, and doesn’t keep the ball on the ground.Where is the appeal? The fact that we even made an OFFER to Washburn speaks volumes about Smith’s incompetency. Someone get this guy out of our front office, ASAP.Watching Bill Smith try to put together a baseball team is like watching an episode of Mr. Magoo.
whoa back the truck up a little bit, since when is a guy with 107 mlb wins over 10 years and a carreer ERA of 4.10 flat out NOT good as you stated. He may not be a top flight starter but he is definitely a decent MLB starter, give the guy a little more credit than no credit.
Wins mean nothing. They’re the equivalent of gold gloves.
With Washburn, the outfield defense will be a non-issue. The balls have to stay in the park in order for the defenders to catch them.
I like him too, but is he that much better than Duensing or Liriano, because that’s who he is replacing? Meanwhile the Twins will be starting Punto AND Brendan Harris in their infield.
This is stupid.
Twinsgeek hits the nail on the head.
Not only is he not really better than Duensing or Liriano… he’s more likely to regress than improve at this point in his career. Liriano had a better xFIP than him last year… Liriano’s tradition stats didn’t look quite as nice though. Yuck. I hate this move, especially with our limited resources.
I really hoped that getting Pavano would end our obsession with Washburn…
This could open up the door for a trade here.
A trade for… an infielder? How about take the $6 million you’d spend on Washburn, and go get 2 years of Felipe Lopez. Go get 1.5 years of Orlando Hudson. With the limited resources we have, we should be focusing on true areas of need. Bullpen is set. Outfield is set. Rotation is fine with Duensing, Liriano, Manship, Perkins, or Swarzak as the 5th starter. We need an infielder. Signing Washburn, who’s likely going to perform worse than any of those options for the 5th starter, at 10 times the cost, then trading them for an infielder is completely asinine.
I’m not talking about signing a Lopez or a Hudson. They would look to trade for a major BAT for the lineup. That would be worth pursuing.
The Twins have plenty of offense. They had no problem scoring runs last year. They don’t need a slugger. They need someone who can get on base behind Span, and in front of Mauer. Mauer, Morneau, Kubel, Cuddyer, Hardy, and potentially Young are going to provide plenty of power.
Sooooo you are OK with the production we got from thirdbase last season?? We need power and defense at the corners, every relevant playoff team has this. So if your argument is we already have a great offense why are you so opposed to adding a pitcher that would benefit from this offense?? Did you not say earlier that you would rather us go after a BAT?? Which one is it?? Truth is Washburn is gonna pitch FINE for the twins and we’d be lucky to have him. My guess is you’ll be eating your words by midseason and as a twin fan you’d have to admit that would be a very good thing!
Zach is completely right. How many speedy guys that can get on base are on this roster? One. We need a number two. Lopez or Hudson would be a much better signing.
Here’s the bottom line, Hud/Lopez is a much greater improvement over Harris than Washburn is over Duensing. I’m not sure the latter is even an improvement. It may be a horizontal move.
As for needing power at the corners, arguably the second and third best teams in MLB in 2009 (the angels and phillies) had nothing for power at third base. When you have power at other positions on the field, you can focus on defense/speed/obp at the corners. If we end up getting another power bat, our lineup starts to resemble the white sox over the last few seasons. I’m not that excited about crumbling in september when the cold stalls the ball on what would otherwise be a ball heading over the “baggy”.
nedz more piranhaz….
Hudson or Lopez would also be contributing everyday as opposed to once every 5th day.
We are opposed because Washburn is a lot of money for something we don’t really need.
Okay, fine. They go after a major bat. Signing Washburn still doesn’t do anything to help make this happen.
Washburn gives the team nothing that they don’t already have. Signing him also makes it less likely that they will try to fix the holes at 2nd and 3rd.
Take the money you would have spent on Washburn and put it toward signing Hudson. He was asking for 8 million at the start of free agency, but his price has probably come way down since then. 5 million might be enough to cover the first year of a 2 or 3 year deal.
Next, either trade for Kous or resign Crede.
Now that’s would be a line up that could do some damage on both sides of the field.
They don’t need Washburn to open a door for a trade. They have plenty to trade with.
Exactly. With the exception of Deunsing, all the Twins pitchers have multiple years at the major league level. At some point you just have to take the training wheels of and let them go.
I like Washburn too, but is he that much better than Duensing or Liriano? Because that’s who he is replacing. Meanwhile the Twins will be starting Punto AND Brendan Harris in their infield.
This is stupid.
Not the way Duensing pitched down the stretch but YES in every possible way Washburn was a HUGE HUGE upgrade to Liriano. It’s sad to see a guy like lirano regress so much but he was just terrible last year and if we had a Washburn in place of Lirano we would have run away with the central hands down. I do NOT think the twins should sell low of Liriano unless someone overpays for him with a useful position player.
Except that Washburn’s xFIP was higher than Liriano’s… meaning that Washburn would be a DOWNGRADE over Liriano. Liriano had bad, bad, bad luck this year. Washburn’s was very very good, and he had an all world outfield defense. I’d rather roll with Liriano than flush $6 million down the toilet on Washburn.
Are you really defending Lirano’s season?? Wow. I watched a guy pitch to a 5-13 record with a 5.80 ERA. No other team in baseball had a starter perform so poorly.
Liriano was the recipient of bad luck. Washburn was the recipient of good luck. It’s unlikely either player will be as good or bad next year. Was that so hard?
Are you really expecting Washburn to reproduce those 2009 Seattle numbers, away from Safeco and away from those outfielders and in front of Young and Cuddyer with Target Field’s tiny foul ground? Wow. I watched a 57 year old guy have a freakish late career outlier that fell apart when he moved to Detroit.I expect Liriano to improve and Washburn to regress. There’s a chance Washburn could still be better than Liriano, but maybe he won’t be. No way to tell, really. What is certain is that Liriano will not cost $6m, that we could certainly use that money on something more important than a #5 starter, and that what cost us more in 2009 was Slowey’s injury, not Liriano’s performance.
last time i checked Duensing and Swarzak make league minimum, and they are comparable options to Washburn, for 6+mil less… USE YOUR HEAD BILL SMITH WE HAVE NUMEROUS 5th STARTERS, last time Smith used the Veteran starter excuse we were blessed with Livan Hernandez..
The Twins showed last year they really only need one veteran pitcher to anchor the staff. Baker had a rough start last year after the new contract but Im expecting a great season from him and emerging as the ace, slowey looked awesome till he went down and blackburn has been nothing but consistent. Add in pavano and you have a solid four. Then platoon liriano and duensing together and your fine, we have no need for this bum. Last year when detroit traded for him down the stretch we saw his true colors, he got them nowhere. Bill Smith needs to stop the wait and see approach as we’ve seen almost every 3B option taken off the market, now were left with Miguel Tejada or Crede. Personally I’d love O-Cab back even though throwing him at 2b or 3b would be questionable. I would love Uggla or Kouz at 3b, a package deal of perkins and a lower level hitter would be good enough to get them.
Were good at pitching, focus on 3b where we havent been able to fill since Koskie.
“Every 3B option taken off the market”? Excuse me if I don’t shed a tear over the likes of Atkins, Derosa, Glaus, Feliz, Uribe, Beltre or Figgins. Overrated each and every one of them. The best of the lot were Figgins and Beltre and Beltre clearly wanted to go to Boston, since he turned down multi-year offers elsewhere, and Figgins is getting way too much for the player he is. Smith is playing this just fine.
There are still decent options at 3rd and even more at 2nd.
Go with what you have now. If you need another arm and are still in it, go for a trade around the deadline – the quality will be much higher and you won’t have to give up as much.
Brian M,
Are you really going to cite Washburn’s 107 wins over 10 seasons as a reason for him being good?
Wins are a terrible way to measure a pitcher’s effectiveness, as they’re so heavily dependent on the team around you, and even if you DO for some reason value a pitcher getting a “Win,” averaging just under 11 per season is hardly good.
At one point in his career, Washburn was a reliable starter. At this point, he is no better than a #5 starter, which the Twins have plenty of.
I don’t understand how people can just ignore such glaring truths like Washburn’s bloated FIP, xFIP, miniscule BABIP… I realize that he had a 2.64 with the Mariners. That’s a very nice number, sure. But, it doesn’t tell the whole story of his ability. Washburn doesn’t strike people out and he doesn’t limit walks like Twins pitchers do.
He pitches to contact, but he doesn’t have the stuff to get the ball on the ground. Hitters put his pitches up in the air, and he benefited from a VERY large park in Seattle and what is quite literally one of the best defensive outfields of the past 25 years last season. They may have had one of the best outfields ever, while Endy Chavez was in left, Franklin Gutierrez in center, and Ichiro in right.
The Mariners, as a team, made their pitchers look better through ridiculous defense all season.
I’ve seen several people on these threads just ignore anything but Washburn’s ERA from those two months. Why are three months here the standard for which he should be measured when over the other 21 months he’s pitched during the last four seasons, he’s been nothing shy of terrible?
Sounds like the rantings of a White Sox fan to me!!!!!! š
Haha, where’s TargetField when you need him?
Seriously though, I just don’t get how people ignore all statistics aside from ERA. Even if you don’t believe in FIP, xFIP, etc. etc.– just look at Washburn’s track record and the defense behind him. Can’t you logically make the conclusion that he was just plain lucky for about 3 months?
Put that money toward a Mauer extension, Felipe Lopez, Orlando Hudson, or even next year’s draft, and let Duensing and Liriano fight it out. At least there’s some upside with those two.
Bill Smith is an idiot. The fact that we actually have an offer out terrifies me. Please Brewers, Nationals, anyone… outbid us. PLEASE.
Haha, i agree with everything you’re saying MorneauVP, i dont understand why we are spending our precious dollars on talent which we already have in our system
Yes, I absolutely feel the same way. I expected us to get taken to the cleaners by Jack Z last year for Washburn, and was thankful the Tigers got him instead of us.
I’d be fine if we were targeting a high-upside guy, like a Sheets or Bedard. But Jarrod Washburn is literally worse than any option we have. The money they offered him would’ve been better served towards a Beltre contract offer. Unfortunately, all the infield options are all signing while we “wait and see” and make stupid offers to Washburn. Go get Lopez, let Punto play at 3B. Sign someone for the bench. These are much, much more pressing needs.
Thank you to everyone in this little string for being the voice of reason. Washburn is a horizontal move at best to what we have. Hud/Lopez is a substantial upgrade over Harris and according to UZR, 3B is Punto’s best position defensively (gold glove caliber really).
Why do you even write on this you’ve made the following (terrible) points:1) Washburn won’t help any team in major league baseball. Dumb.2) Mariners play in a bigger park than the Twins. Wrong. (Look it up)3) Washburn is no better than a 5th starter. Wrong and Ridiculous. 4) Washburn has pitched 21 straight terrible months. Really?? Wow you are blind.Unless your wife cheated on you with Jarrod Washburn, highly likely, you are completely destroying this guy for no reason. I hope he proves you wrong. I hope he pitches great next season in a Twins uniform and I hope that with every quality start, you are home (alone) watching and stewing on how wrong you were. This is why you work at starbucks and don’t run a major league organization. Leave it to Smith, Radcliffe, Cox, Wilson, Rantz, Johnson, Followell, Ryan and Kelly. They know what they are doing. Twins in 2010, going all the way!!!
I work at Starbucks. Niiiice. Thankfully, I’ve got a desk job that lets me do this on slow days. Woohoo corporate America.
1. Washburn will help some teams, I exaggerated. Heavens no. A team like Washington or Pittsburgh could benefit from a mediocre innings eater. Fine. Happy now?
2. Safeco Field’s power alleys are 13 feet (left-center field) and 18 feet (right-center field) deeper than Target Field’s. Down the line, yes, there’s a 7-foot and 2-foot difference to left and right, respectively. The power alleys are what I was referring to, and that’s a significant difference. Think of an extra 18 feet in right-center– that’s enormous.
3. Why is this point wrong and ridiculous? Washburn’s FIP has consistently been in the mid-4.70 range. He’s aging, barely striking out 5 per game, and doesn’t induce ground balls. Home runs will become an increased factor, as will his fly balls with a weaker outfield.
4. My point is that you’re judging Washburn on three months last season (and actually, I’ll correct myself, it was four good months) rather than on the past four years of his career. What’s more important? Four good months which can be largely attributed to a great OF in a pitchers’ park, or four years of overall mediocrity?
Thanks for resorting to personal insults though. It really strengthens your argument as opposed to using, oh, I don’t know, facts.
Make a case as to why Washburn will be an improvement over our current staff for several million dollars using a point other than “I hope you cry at home alone while Washburn pitches well.”
If the Twins sign Washburn, and he pitches great for us, I’ll cheer for him all the way. But that’s not likely to happen.
Don’t insult me as a person for using actual logic and not blindly trusting a Twins front office that has failed miserably in free agency for the past several years.
Safco is also an indoor stadium. Wind factor is huge in most hitter friendly parks.
Safeco has a retractable roof, but it’s hardly indoors. The roof serves more as an umbrella and the wind is still a factor, especially in left field.
Grow up Brian.
Washburn’s numbers in Safeco are pure fluke.
Too much $$. They could use the depth, but not at that price.
I’m guessing the price is less than 6-7. Could be an incentive laden deal as well, which would work just fine.
“How about take the $6 million you’d spend on Washburn, and go get 2 years of Felipe Lopez. Go get 1.5 years of Orlando Hudson. With the limited resources we have, we should be focusing on true areas of need. Bullpen is set. Outfield is set. Rotation is fine with Duensing, Liriano, Manship, Perkins, or Swarzak as the 5th starter. We need an infielder. Signing Washburn, who’s likely going to perform worse than any of those options for the 5th starter, at 10 times the cost, then trading them for an infielder is completely asinine.”
My feelings exactly. What some people seem to be missing here is that the Twins’ interest in Washburn is only the second most appalling part of this story. The thing that really disgusts me is that if this rumor is to be believed, the Twins have an extra $6 million to spend and this is how they want to use it, when there are much more glaring needs. I could forgive them if there offseason came to a halt because the last remaining dollars needed to be applied to a Mauer extension. Instead, we hear that they do have some extra money, meaning that there’s no excuse for Smith’s failure to acquire an affordable infielder such as Troy Glaus and Kelly Johnson, or an affordable high-upside starter such as Rich Harden.
Completely agree with you. They have done a nice job so far in getting J.J. Hardy for a free swinging 4th OF. Getting Pavano to accept arb. They still have 2 holes though 2B and 3B. If you believe that a combo of Punto and Casilla are good enough at 2B then you only have 3B to fill. They have enough SP depth right now to deal one or two for Kouzmanoff of SD. Cantu of FLA is possible but he is more of a 1B now then an everyday 3B. One guy that hasnt been out there much that could help is LAs Casey Blake. Solid defense, solid bat, good clubhouse guy and less risk than a guy like Kouz regressing back to where he was 2 or 3 years ago and he could probably be added cheaply.
Kelly Johnson? Troy Glaus? Tell me you’re kidding.
As opposed to Tolbert? Punto? Harris? No, no I’m not kidding.
CHONE projects Johnson to hit .268/.346/.436 (+3 runs/150) in 2010, and Glaus to hit .249/.359/.447.
Johnson has had past issues defensively, but improved greatly last season and deserves the benefit of a doubt before he’s shifted from 2B. Glaus has a mixed track-record defensively, but performed well at the hot corner in his last full-season (2008) according to UZR.
Both provide power and decent on base skills, and at a minimum, serve as players who won’t cancel out the efforts of the better part of the lineup. And both served for cheaper than the 4mm paid to our incumbent 2B.
Or, we could just stick to this brilliant duo:
Nick Punto .229/.329/.285 (2009)
Matt Tolbert .222/.299/.285 (2009)
“And both *signed* for cheaper than the 4mm paid to our incumbent 2B.”
I’d rather stick with what we have than sign either of those two. Just more dead weight and change for the sake of change. I still think Brendan Harris, if given the chance, could be a better third baseman for a lot less money than the likes of Glaus, Atkins or Derosa even.
If the team is going to go out and sign somebody, it should be somebody along the likes of Felipe Lopez or Orlando Hudson, not a mediocre “upgrade” like Kelly Johnson or Troy Glaus.
So Troy Glaus, who lost 2009 to surgery but hit .270/.372/.483 with 27 HR in a pitchers’ park in 2008, is a “mediocre upgrade” over Brendan Harris?
Meantime, Jarrod Washburn, who has pitched well for 3 of the last 24 months of his career, should be signed for two or even three times as much money?
Where’s your logic in this Buffalo?
A 33-year-old baseman coming off shoulder surgery who won’t hit for average but might provide some power when he’s not injured? Why sign him when Crede’s available? But I would still prefer Harris. Go look at his numbers in 2007 with the Rays when he was given a fair shot.
Harris’ numbers with Tampa were very good; I don’t need to look them up, as I remember that I was thrilled to get him in that trade and thought he’d be an offensive upgrade over Bartlett (talk about hindsight being 20/20 now, right?).
However, if you’re going to use 2007 stats to vote for Harris, then I’m going to stand by the 2008 stats to vote for Glaus.
I know Glaus lost a season, and it’s obviously a risk. However, he signed for $2MM base. Would it have been terrible to offer $2.25MM or $2.5MM base and play him at third base to see if he could produce?
He cranked out a .270/.372/.483 season in 2008 with strong defense at third base. If he tanks, we’ve still got Harris there, and if he returns to form, then we’ve got someone leagues better than any other option we had.
That’s the difference, in my opinion, between a Glaus-type signing and Washburn-type signing. Washburn’s best effort would likely be an ERA in the high 3’s, and that would take some significant improvement over last year in his age-36 season. Glaus’ ceiling would be a legit slugging third baseman with 25+ HR to hit in the middle of our order. He’d also have cost probably at least half the price of Washburn.
It’s also worth noting Glaus is more or less done at third. Atlanta plans to use him as a first baseman.
I don’t know that he’s done at third. I realize Atlanta is using him at first, but I was under the impression that was more because of Chipper Jones being entrenched at third.
I haven’t seen anything questioning Glaus’ ability to play third. If there is, I’d be interested to read it if you’ve got a link handy. Thanks!
Again, the twins have never been linked to Felipe Lopez, tough to sign someone that isn’t even on the radar. I’m guessing Lopez would cost more than 3 mill a year as well.
No one’s been linked to Felipe Lopez yet, aside from the Cardinals. Doesn’t mean talks haven’t gone on, and doesn’t mean he doesn’t make sense for the team. We don’t have any way of knowing who is and isn’t on the radar unless a story like this Washburn one comes out.
The Twins have probably talked to several names that haven’t leaked out at all yet. If they’re looking at infielders, they’ve at least discussed Lopez internally. Any team looking at infielders probably has after the season Felipe put up last year.
Instead of aiming for a mediocre starter, they should get two solid bats. Either a corner OF and a middle infielder (Cuddyer could return to the IF), or a 2B and 3B.
I’d love to see them trade Liriano for Lopez and Perkins+Swarzak+[low minor prospect?] for Uggla.
Span
Lopez
Mauer
Cuddyer
Morneau
Uggla
Kubel
Young
Hardy
I hate Lopez for our lineup and would want more in return for liriano. Actually, I hope we dont trade Liriano at all because when we do, he will return to rookie form. That kind of thing just happens to my favorite teams. Also, I believe Florida wants some high upside arms in return for Uggla. Perkins and Swarzak have experience and could develop into middle of the rotation guys, but from what i have read, Florida is looking for future ace’s in return. Uggla will be hard to get for any team.. If i remember correctly, they turned down an offer from Texas which included Neftali Perez in the deal (throws 100+, nasty breaking ball, will be a stud). If that doesnt get you Uggla, i dont think Perkins and Swarzak will.
Plus Lopez would be a bad #2 hitter. His OBP is horrible. Sure he has pop but we need players to get on base, we have enough HR hitting players
Signing Washburn is such a mistake. I get that the Twins need a lefty in their rotation. But Washburn is not a solution. Not only would the smart bet be on Washburn declining, but he isn’t even better than our so called laughing stock in Francisco Liriano. Personally I am fully on the Liriano board. The 5.8 era is ugly but that is not the pitcher Liriano is. He got unlucky. He should be our 5th starter. If we want to compete in the Playoffs we need an ACE, a guy who can carry us. Liriano is our only guy with that potential. If he doesn’t work out by the deadline thats when you make a move but the smart play would be having Liriano be our 5th starter.
And if Bill Smith is so against Liriano, at least take a high risk high reward guy like Sheets or Bedard for a couple million dollars more. I know the twins are always very tight fiscally but signing Washburn for 6M is throwing money down the drain when you could get the results with what we already have. Put that 6M towards Mauer or suring up the infield.
Mike Lowell? Obviously cash would have to pass between the Red Sox and Twins, but I think if they’re looking for a solid option at third, Lowell could fit the bill.
Lowell is fresh off hand surgery and probably will take a bunch of time to return to whatever shape he can manage at this age. Picking him up to start now on a one year deal is very risky.
I never really thought about this, but I wouldnt be opposed to Lowell at 3rd. He’s a solid vet and still has some RH pop. He has lost his gold glove defense but is still solid. If the redsox would eat a lot of his salary, he could be a good option. Now that they signed Beltre, teams know they want to get rid of him, which should lower the asking price. The sox asked for max ramirez back from texas, maybe they would take morales and a lower level pitching prospect.
Thats jose morales, not angel obviously
I would be all for this.
So here’s the thing. This should come at NO SURPRISE to anyone following the twins. For the last 2 offseasons, the twins were rumored in trying to acquire washburn via trade, price was too steep. Last season, waiver claim, unsuccessful. So now they are gonna get their guy, they must know or see something they like and when it comes to pitchers, I trust they know what they are doing.
You trust the organization to judge free agent pitchers well? After Livan Hernandez, Sidney Ponson, Ramon Ortiz, Luis Ayala… let me just ask: Why?
I’m not trying to be a jerk or anything here, but it’s pretty obvious that the Twins have continually fallen flat on their face in terms of free agent pitchers because they prefer to spend on the cheap and try to catch lightning in a bottle rather than seek out a proven commodity.
Their idea of “upside” isn’t signing Ben Sheets, who was an ace two years ago before injury. It’s signing a guy like Washburn, who pitched well back in 2002 and hasn’t since.
I am convinced he is Target Field.
After reading several of his posts, I’m 100% in agreement.
Why the name change TF?
Open question to ALL TWINS FANS, of the three 1) WASHBURN, 2) DAVIS or 3) GARLAND signed at the same price, say 4-6 mil on a 1-year hitch, WHO DO YOU WANT?!?!?
I think Garland is the best out of the bunch but the Twins need a lefty. I hate Davis, and dislike Washburn. Twins need 1 power arm, or somewhat close to that. Pay the extra, get Bedard or stick with Liriano and pocket the cash for Mauer/a 2B like O-Dog. Pretty simple to me.
D) None of the above.
agree
Washbum is nothing special other than the fact that he provides depth. Slotting him in the rotation and FORCING the youngs to earn a spot rather than handing it to them allows for competition and options. Maybe trade an arm or two for a legit infielder… Duensing, while unproven, should not be handed a spot and Liriano should HAVE to show up this spring and earn one.
That’s asinine logic. You declare an open competition for the #5 spot, and let Duensing/Liriano/Swarzak/Manship/Perkins compete for it all spring. None of them are being handed anything.
Putting Washburn there declares “We just spent $6m for our #5 starter, because we really, really like him. Go ahead and compete for long relief”.
There’s no spot to earn if you sign Washburn.
Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, and Pavano occupy the first four right now, and barring an injury, that won’t change. If you put Washburn there, you don’t have a spot to compete for.
I’d rather see the Brewers get Washburn or Davis than Garland, if that is what it comes down to. None of them excite me, but they need another starter for depth when someone inevitably gets injured or is ineffective. Hopefully Doug Melvin doesn’t sit back and wait for a deal too long, before he has no options left.
This news makes me ill. It’s been thoroughly established here why; Washburn is NOT an upgrade over existing options, and even $1 spent on him is $1 unavailable for other (greater) needs. Not to mention he’ll cost starts for our young #5 options who need a chance if they’re ever going to develop.
I have long been skeptical that Smith would dismantle the sound system Ryan spent a decade crafting. If there’s any merit to this report, I’m ready to conclude Smith is indeed going to mismanage the Twins out of perennial contention.
Difficult to see Washburn as a serious upgrade to Liriano/Perkins/Duensing, et.al.
I believe that this money could be better spent on at least 1 infield position. Even if you lose one pitcher for Kouz, Washburn is not the answer.
Doubt the Twins will pursue Uggla. His fielding at 2B is poor and his agent has suggested he would resist a move to 3B.
I don’t understand this move at all!! Liriano is doing great in winter league and we have Duensing as another quite viable option. There is also Swarzak and Manship too. I don’t see the logic of bringing in a high 4, low 5 era pitcher that hasn’t played well in years. This is a silly move, unless Smith has some blockbuster trade in mind that might think the ranks a bit for a 3rd or 2nd baseman. Please do not trade Duensing or Liriano!!
This would be a huge mistake, just offering is a mistake. We don’t have the outfield speed to handle Washburn’s fly ball ways. This to me looks like the Twins going after the cheapest option on the FA market, business as usual for them. And he probably won’t come cheap literally either. This is not an upgrade over any of the pitchers that he will be replacing, as someone else said. Liriano is better, as bad as he was last year. He’ll put up the same numbers that Washburn will, but will be a lot less expensive. I’m pretty sure Liriano could put up an ERA in the 4 range, which what Washburn will do. Why waste money? I’d rather have them not do anything than to do this.
If we’re going to get a pitcher then go after Sheets or Bedard. They have a higher upside than Washburn and would actually be an upgrade. They’ll likely cost a couple million more, but that’s because they’re better.
And the Twins should also sign a second baseman. I’m one of the few people (i think) who is willing to give Valencia third base right out of the gate. We know the Twins aren’t going to do that though. I’d be fine with giving Crede a similar deal to last year until Valencia is deemed ready. I actually thought that was a good FA signing, even now, and his defense proved worth it.
What the Twins really need is OBP. They don’t need another power bat, we don’t want to become the White Sox who used to (not sure about this past season) rely so heavily on HR’s that their record was so terrible in games without at least one. I don’t want that to happen to the Twins. There is a balance. Hardy, Morneau, Mauer (if it wasn’t a fluke, I don’t believe so..though I don’t know if he’ll hit that many again.), Kubel, Cuddyer and possibly Young are enough power.
A good fit would be a second baseman with a high OBP. There is a black hole in the #2 spot in the lineup and a hole at second base. We don’t have anyone ready to play second in the minors so it makes more sense to fill that position rather than third.
There always is an automatic out in front of Mauer, we don’t need that. Mauer, Span, Kubel and Morneau are really are only OBP guys in the lineup and two are more power guys so we really only have Mauer and Span. That’s not enough. Most people’s first choice seems to be Lopez because he’s younger and cheaper. I prefer Hudson because he’s more consistent with the bat and glove. I wouldn’t mind either though.
I’d be happy with Bedard/Sheets AND Lopez/Hudson. I don’t think the Twins will do both, if they even choose those players at all anyway. That’s my wish though. They still have to extend Mauer, but I hope we’ll get at least one of the guys I just mentioned.
Well said. Either take a chance on a legit ace or go for an OBP guy. No Washburn!
Sheets and Bedard are going to be more expensive and are bigger injury risks. The Twins like neither of those two things. So as much as I would like them to take a flier on one of these two, I just do not see it happening.
Carl Pavano isn’t an injury risk? We offered him arbitration knowing full-well he’d be an expensive injury risk if he accepted.
They may be injury-prone and expensive, but assuming Washburn signs for one-year, $6MM wherever he ends up… why not pay an extra $2MM in base salary for a guy who has ace upside?
Bedard has no ace upside any more. I keep hearing this said and the guy is now 31, struggles with injuries and has never really delivered on his promise. Just not going to happen with him at this time. Sheets is more intriguing though.
Striking out nearly 10 per 9 innings last season in Seattle and posting an FIP over a full run better than Washburn’s alone merits the extra couple million that would be necessary.
Even if you want to say he has #2 upside, that’s still better than any other pitcher on the market, aside from Sheets, and still leagues better than Washburn, who doesn’t even have upside.
Great strikeout averages. Too bad he only averaged just over 80 innings the past two years.
So you are against Pavano also?? Would you be OK if we just left the staff “as-is” with Baker Slowey Liriano Perkins Blackburn Duensing (Swarzak/Manship/Bromberg) and just throw all the young guys out there and say here ya go, sink or swim. They already did that last year and they SUNK. They have no choice but to fortify the staff with vets. Pencils have erasers. If the young guys swim, they will play. Trades can be made at the All-Star Break and having a wealth of arms will always be attractive in the trade market. Who knows maybe this is a pre-cursor to some upcoming trade moves before the start of 2010. Believe me Gardy and Anderson will throw out the players that are performing. Always have, always will. Give this some time, let’s see the final opening day roster before we throw the front office under the bus.
I just said Pavano is an injury risk. I never said “I hate Carl Pavano and he’ll suck.”
Though truthfully, I’d have preferred Pavano to decline arbitration and for us to sign Rich Harden, but I’ll live with Carl filling out the back-end of the rotation.
As for the “players that are performing” argument, that’s a tough sell after we pretty much lost the division in 2008 for sticking with Livan Hernandez too long. Or after Nick Punto’s perennial starting gigs.
I don’t see a reason for the front office not to be thrown under the bus after the trades we’ve made and free agents we’ve signed in years past. Craig Monroe, Rondell White, Sidney Ponson, Ramon Ortiz, Adam Everett, Mike Lamb, Delmon Young, Brendan Harris… by and large their offseason moves have been disastrous.
Though, that said, I’m a fan of the Gomez/Hardy swap, and the Pavano acquisition worked out for the best midseason. I feel like we gave up a bit too much for Rauch and the Dbacks would’ve taken a lesser prospect, but if he pitches well, it won’t bother me one bit.
…cept we didn’t stick with Livan Hernandez too long. We cut him loose to the Rockies mid-season cementing my point that they will cut a veteren loose if he is not performing. ERA aside, Livan did have a 10-win season with us back in 08 and to place blame on him for losing the division is terribly short-sighted and just wrong.
Wow, Liriano really is completely dominating the Winter League. Granted, it’s an 11.2 IP sample size, but to see 17 Ks in there to just 2 BBs and no home runs allowed is an encouraging sign anyway.
His command was a huge issue in 2009. Gotta like even small signs of progress like that.
Good to hear. Don’t trade him unless he’s in a package for a great player….. Josh Johnsonnnnnnnn! haha
Ramos/Liriano/Swarzak/Revere
guess who’s the OPS leader in the Dominican Winter League (where Liriano has dominated)? wait for it: Wilson Betemit.
I am not sure what all of the whining is for, we do not even know the offer.
I assume the Twins are lowballing. Maybe he takes it coming off an injury and wanting to pitch near his home. If so, I will take one year of a cheap Jared Washburn to add to our pitching depth. We will have injuries and we will have regression. So why not start the year with 6 or 7 starters in your pocket?
Because history has shown that the Twins inevitably wait far too long to jettison dead weight veterans from the lineup/rotation once they sign them.
Bingo.
Hernandez/Ponson/Ortiz are just all-too-recent examples of guys who had 5-10 starts too many, once they had already proven they were worthless.
Incidentally, in every instance, the youth brought up in their place vastly outperformed them.
Provides plenty of trade flexibility and the Twins showed last season that they have a lot of “on the ML cusp” starters that have youth on their side. I pretty sure they are attractive prospects for many teams to consider, oh and cheap very very cheap.
Which begs the question… if they’re “on the ML cusp,” why not just go with a combination of them over Washburn and spend the money elsewhere?
You’re refuting your own argument in that statement, unless you honestly are willing to ignore our weak outfield defense, smaller park dimensions, and Washburn’s peripheral stats and recent track record in order to believe he’ll pitch to the tune of a 2.64 ERA for the Twins again. Which, if he does, hell I’ll do cartwheels and buy a Washburn jersey.
But it seems silly to bank $6MM-ish on that when we can likely get similar results for a fraction of the price, keep our depth, and just sign someone like Orlando Hudson, Felipe Lopez, or Joe Crede and improve both our defense and our lineup.
….cuz “on the cusp” doesn’t translate into ML success, it just means they’ve proved all they can prove in the minors. I would not be comfortable putting intense pressure on a young arm like we did with swarzak and manship et al. becuase they proved to crack under the pressure, something a veteren starter simply won’t do. Twins know when pitchers are ready for a full-time gig and they must no feel comfortable yet (especially after 2009’s debacle) to give Perkins, Swarzak, Bromberg, Manship the vode of confidence.
I don’t recall the Twins having a heck of a lot of major league ready depth in SP in the minors still. How many kids did we call up last year to start? The ones we DO have up here now are young, granted, but it’s not like we have 3-4 guys in Rochester who are ready to step up.
The problem with that for me is that I don’t even want to pay Washburn $1. Yes, it’s depth, but depth doesn’t matter if the player isn’t very good. If they just need a body, then anyone can do it. We have guys in the minors and I’m sure there are starters out there that are cheaper than Washburn who will put up the 4-5 ERA that he will. It’s a waste of money and a spot to me.
I want the Twins to go after a good pitcher, not just a body. A body is something they used to do and shouldn’t anymore. As someone else said, Hernandez/Ponson/Ortiz. I never wanted any of those guys and they proved why. Think about the money we gave those three combined. We could have put it all together and gave it all to one good pitcher. Instead we settle for the basement guys and got the results that most people expected.
The Twins have a new ballpark but that doesn’t mean that the payroll is going to skyrocket. It started in the 60’s last year, right? It’s going to start in the 90’s this year. That’s just with the guys we already have. That is a huge, huge increase. I don’t want to waste however much money it is going to cost to give Washburn because that lessens our chances at getting a good player elsewhere or at all. If you’re going to spend the money then get someone good. Save the money and get only a second baseman or save the money and get a pitcher only, if you can’t do both, which is likely. Don’t go after the cheapest guy because he’s the cheapest. There are many options that I’d rather have than to sign Washburn to a deal with the Twins.
Funny how Marines fans wanted A. Jackson for this guy and they actually thought it was a good deal.
Just found this in the Detroit paper…
“The Minnesota Twins, Seattle Mariners and New York Mets have expressed interest in the 35-year-old free agent, although the Twins appear to have a leg up on the veteran pitcher after reportedly offering Washburn a $6 million, one-year deal.”
Woowwww, 6 million dollars…….. This would be the biggest waste of money i could possibly think of.
I hope that is wrong. I just can’t find one good reason on why signing Washburn is a good idea.
Noooooooooooooooo
I am completely going off of Punto’s track record of having a good year every other year, but if he can regain 2008/2006 offensive form he would be a good #2 hitter. Last season, despite hitting only .228, his 61 walks raised his OBP to .337, compared to Cabrera’s .313 with the twins. Batting in the 2 hole in his career he is a .258/.329 hitter, so i think it would be a decent option if the twins only go out and get one 3b/2b.
I’m not sold on Washburn yet, he is aging and doesnt have the greatest stats as every one has said, but remember that he will be working with Rick Anderson, maybe it will help, who knows.
Its a pretty big risk hoping for the even year numbers, i would rather go get lopez/hudson for the two hole. But I dont hate punto as much as a lot of twins fans do. I dont think he should be getting paid 4 million or anything near that for that matter, but I think he is a solid 9 hitter. He, not Mauer saw the most pitchers per at bat last season, and he plays very solid defense at 2nd, SS, or 3rd.
Good points all the way around here. I would be really happy to see Punto put up a .260/.350 type of season and he is capable. As Mauerneau (great name by the way) said, Punto is the kind of player you like to have on the team, just not the kind of guy you want to rely on for offensive production. Right now, he is unfortunately the guy penciled in the #2 hole. I’d prefer he be plan B.
The only way I would be okay with this is if they already have a deal in place for an infielder but were waiting until they sign Washburn, just for insurance, before they pull the trigger.
I agree with other people on Tejada, a one year deal worth 5,5 million worth another 2 million in initiatives. Or you could get O-CAb for 2.5 mill with 2mil in initiatives.
So is scott miller of cbssports not credible?? Why would he report something that no one will confirm?!? It’s interesting to note that this site MLBTR.com is owned and operated by cbssports.
Whoa. Is this true?
MLBTR is most certainly not owned or operated by CBSSports. We have no affiliation with them whatsoever. At one point, about a year ago, we syndicated content to them (there was no claim to ownership or anything like that then either).
Tim Dierkes: Full-time MLB rumor messenger, part-time ownership rumor debunker.
Thanks Tim. I was pretty startled by the claim. You seem to be doing quite well for yourself, and my bet is it’s only a matter of time until ESPN snatches you up. I couldn’t imagine such a glaring conflict-of-interest would have been kept so hush-hush.
Do you have any basis for this “owned and operated” claim? I’ve never seen any evidence of that…
What is up with this erroneous reporting???
I don’t think Miller is unreliable but often some writers will jump the gun when they hear a rumor and will report it as the truth.
Well thank God….
Best news I’ve had all day!
Maybe Washburn extended a contract offer to the Twins
Washburn makes sense for the Twins. He would be a final piece to the rotation barring a trade. Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Liriano and Washburn (not necessarily in that order) actually puts together a solid rotation for the Twins. Being a Wisconsin native and all I could see either the Twins or Brewers working as La Cross, WI is practically the halfway point.
Final piece to a losing puzzle maybe. 1) The Twins already have Pavano, who considering luck/defense, will probably be better than Washburn this year. 2) Duensing/Liriano/Manship/Perkins figures to produce 1 starting rotation spot that is better than Washburn this year, at a fraction of the cost. 3) Washburn is simply not very good.
Washburn helps the club in no way. Spend the money needed for him on 2b or 3b, a backup CF like Church, or a high-potential SP like Sheets or Bedard vs. a 5th starter.
You’re right! I forgot about Carl Pavano. I actually like Pavano if he can repeat his 09 numbers with better luck than he had in 09: 199.1IP with a 4.00FIP. You can’t complain about 200IP with what should be around a 4ERA at the back end of a rotation.
Adding to the Twins rotation discussion. Liriano is said to be throwing the heat down in Winter Leagues. We will know more in Spring Training I think.
You are forgetting Pavano. So no need for Washburn. Please don’t sign him Twins!
Actually it was female twins at a Wisconny bar that propositioned Washburn. Close enough.
It is such a relief to know that Washburn is not coming here. Yet. Condrey is a solid addition to the bp though…
Glad to see talks are pretty much dead. You are not worth the money Washburn. Someone please sign him besides the Twins. (hint hint Brewers)
Boras rejecting this offer could be the best thing to happen to the Twins this offseason since they traded for Hardy.
Amen.
Let’s just hope Boras doesn’t pull a Crede on this one. Meaning, as LEN3 points out, realize there’s no other market for his client and come back to the Twins and say “Ok, we’ll take it.” Ick…
Unfortunately, the Brewers probably can’t come close to topping our $5MM offer. They’re really strapped for cash.
Let’s hope someone else jumps in. The Nationals are looking for veteran innings eaters… though Washburn wants somewhere he can win. Ugh. Take him back, Seattle… PLEASE.
Agreed. Sign one of Lopez/Hudson or Bedard/Sheets and I am happy. Sign one of each, and I am thrilled.
Of course but if they can’t afford Washburn, they won’t be able to afford Bedard or Sheets who are said to be looking for similar contracts.
I would rather have Duensing or Manship round out the rotation than a high priced veteran. All the free agent pitchers left are garbage for the Twins. We need to add a quality bat or preferably two. Even lower priced bats such as Ankiel or Tatis would be good.
I could see Duensing in the rotation, though I’d really like to give Liriano one more shot. Manship, on the other hand, needs more seasoning in the minors, IMO. I’d rather have Washburn than Manship at this point.I don’t see Perkins as a viable option anymore and if Duensing were to be part of a trade, Washburn would suddenly serve a purpose in Minnesota.I still wish we had picked up Rich Harden.
i wonder if the dodgers would be interested in this guy.
Now seriously twins front office, move on from washburn and use that 5 million toward an IMPACT BAT at thirdbase!! Miguel Tejada? Joe Crede? Who is left? Why wait so long on this when the hole is GLARING AT YOU!!
…..OR……I’m pretty sure Twins fans would JUMP IN THE STREETS if you took that 5 mill and signed Felipe Lopez!!!
I don’t understand why the Twins don’t do something like this, sign Felipe Lopez, trade Casilla and Perkins for Kousmanoff. Holes filled, fair deal. Very solid lineup.
Yeah, it’s been bugging me for some time that the Twins haven’t gone out and signed Felipe Lopez. He seems like the perfect fit for the Twins. He plays good defense at 2B and puts up a solid OBP so Gardenhire can fulfill his strange need to have a middle infielder bat second in the lineup. It’s perfect.Perhaps his demands are too high, however.
too bad…it would have been a hilarious waste of money. guess he’s going back home to Wisconsin.
Let the parade begin!