Brendan Bianowicz has more GM Trade History series updates for us. Click below to download Excel spreadsheets with info on the AL Central GMs (trades, free agent signings, and top draft picks).
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Oh man, Brendan’s been on a roll lately.
After Terry Ryan attained near-deity status for creating a perennial contender in the 2000’s, Bill Smith certainly has us Twinks fans a bit on edge. He hasn’t had a big win yet, and seems to have gotten very little in return for Santana/Barlett/Garza in trades that should have netted big returns.
I disagree on the Santana trade. He came out pretty well. An allstar caliber SS, a solid setup man with closer experience and arguably our #1 pitching prospect. I don’t know how you can call that a bad deal. That’s as good of a haul as any Superstar has brought in return (in a two team deal) for any team in quite a while.Now, trading Bartlett away was certainly a mistake and Smith will probably wear egg on his face for years because of this deal.
Exactly – Johan had them in a box, easy to second guess that one, especially with the myriad of unconfirmed offers from the Sawx.
I still have hope for Delmon, and at the time most were pretty psyched, but if they still had Bartlett and Garza right now…wow. And while purely speculative, you know that for all his managerial greatness, the fatal flaw in Gardy is his admiration for himself in a player, and that carried over into choosing Punto over Bartlett.
Exactly – Johan had them in a box, easy to second guess that one, especially with the myriad of unconfirmed offers from the Sawx.
I still have hope for Delmon, and at the time most were pretty psyched, but if they still had Bartlett and Garza right now…wow. And while purely speculative, you know that for all his managerial greatness, the fatal flaw in Gardy is his admiration for himself in a player, and that carried over into choosing Punto over Bartlett.
What are you talking about?
I assume the “all-star caliber SS” you’re referring to is OUTFIELDER Carlos Gomez (who, incidentally, could barely hold a starting job, let alone “all-star caliber”)?
Mulvey/Humber were busts out of the gate – if one of those guys was your #1 pitching prospect, I pity your farm system. Mulvey was so uninspiring they cut him loose as a PTBNL for a meddling bullpen arm.
Trading the AL’s best arm, and two-years removed, not having a single MLB starting player in return, or a single highly-ranked prospect, is hard to call anything but a bad deal.
The allstar caliber shortstop is JJ Hardy. Maybe you’re new to the scene and missed that November transaction?
Rauch is much more than a meddling bullpen arm. He has a sub-4.00 fip for 3 years straight. That’s consistent performance at a solid level. Let’s not lump him in with true meddling bullpen arms like Scott Linebrink and Dan Wheeler.
Guerra is routinely ranked as one of the top 3 pitching prospects in our system by the like of the Twinscentric crowd. I’ll take their word for it that he’s pretty good.
You have to look at that deal like a real estate flip. Sure, Smith bought a handiman project, but he sat on it and some improvements were made to increase the value of the project and then he turned it for a nice gain. The end result is all I care about.
If you want to live in a vacuum, sure the individual parts were aweful at the time of the deal. However, the long-term planning here has put a couple of very valuable pieces on the field now for our favorite squad. In my book, that’s a good deal.
I mentioned elsewhere – I’m not keen to the idea of “linking” players to one another in a Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon game.
Just because Smith made a good deal for Hardy doesn’t mean he still didn’t get a bad deal for Santana.
We’re talking about the greatest pitcher to ever wear a Twins uniform here. Even playing your linking game, you trade that for a middle reliever (ok, sure, an above avg one, but still a middle reliever), a SS who may or may not remember how to hit better than .220 this year, and a prospect of debatable potential?
Santana is a once-in-a-generation talent for a ballclub like the Twins. You need to land a better return than Smith did on it. Period. Especially when the window of M&M means the chances for a WS is NOW, and not some distant real-estate-flippage date to-be-determined.
“Especially when the window of M&M means the chances for a WS is NOW…”
Hardy and Rauch are here to help win NOW. Besides, both Porno and Baby Jesus are better now than they were two years ago. Getting more talent now for the deal is better than two years ago since we can afford to keep them on the roster now and we have a good leadoff man for them to drive in.
Living outside of Minny now I don’t get to tussle about these things much except with my father-in-law once in a while. I’ve really enjoyed the debate. Thanks for proving me right 🙂
“Especially when the window of M&M means the chances for a WS is NOW…”
Hardy and Rauch are here to help win NOW. Besides, both Porno and Baby Jesus are better now than they were two years ago. Getting more talent now for the deal is better than two years ago since we can afford to keep them on the roster now and we have a good leadoff man for them to drive in.
Living outside of Minny now I don’t get to tussle about these things much except with my father-in-law once in a while. I’ve really enjoyed the debate. Thanks for proving me right 🙂
I mentioned elsewhere – I’m not keen to the idea of “linking” players to one another in a Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon game.
Just because Smith made a good deal for Hardy doesn’t mean he still didn’t get a bad deal for Santana.
We’re talking about the greatest pitcher to ever wear a Twins uniform here. Even playing your linking game, you trade that for a middle reliever (ok, sure, an above avg one, but still a middle reliever), a SS who may or may not remember how to hit better than .220 this year, and a prospect of debatable potential?
Santana is a once-in-a-generation talent for a ballclub like the Twins. You need to land a better return than Smith did on it. Period. Especially when the window of M&M means the chances for a WS is NOW, and not some distant real-estate-flippage date to-be-determined.
The allstar caliber shortstop is JJ Hardy. Maybe you’re new to the scene and missed that November transaction?
Rauch is much more than a meddling bullpen arm. He has a sub-4.00 fip for 3 years straight. That’s consistent performance at a solid level. Let’s not lump him in with true meddling bullpen arms like Scott Linebrink and Dan Wheeler.
Guerra is routinely ranked as one of the top 3 pitching prospects in our system by the like of the Twinscentric crowd. I’ll take their word for it that he’s pretty good.
You have to look at that deal like a real estate flip. Sure, Smith bought a handiman project, but he sat on it and some improvements were made to increase the value of the project and then he turned it for a nice gain. The end result is all I care about.
If you want to live in a vacuum, sure the individual parts were aweful at the time of the deal. However, the long-term planning here has put a couple of very valuable pieces on the field now for our favorite squad. In my book, that’s a good deal.
What are you talking about?
I assume the “all-star caliber SS” you’re referring to is OUTFIELDER Carlos Gomez (who, incidentally, could barely hold a starting job, let alone “all-star caliber”)?
Mulvey/Humber were busts out of the gate – if one of those guys was your #1 pitching prospect, I pity your farm system. Mulvey was so uninspiring they cut him loose as a PTBNL for a meddling bullpen arm.
Trading the AL’s best arm, and two-years removed, not having a single MLB starting player in return, or a single highly-ranked prospect, is hard to call anything but a bad deal.
I disagree on the Santana trade. He came out pretty well. An allstar caliber SS, a solid setup man with closer experience and arguably our #1 pitching prospect. I don’t know how you can call that a bad deal. That’s as good of a haul as any Superstar has brought in return (in a two team deal) for any team in quite a while.Now, trading Bartlett away was certainly a mistake and Smith will probably wear egg on his face for years because of this deal.
Breslow was claimed by the A’s, not the Indians.
He was claimed by the Twins from the Indians. He was then claimed from the Twins by the A’s.
Best trade by Kenny, Joe Borchard to the M’s for Matt Thornton. That’s enough for me to deal with his bad trades, including the Swish deal.
The Royals spreadsheet has an error. Dayton Moore took over after the 2006 draft. So it should not be counted as his draft.
Though I’m sure 3 days was not enough time for Moore to make proper evaluations for himself, he was hired on May 31st of ’06.
My question is when did he officially take over. My understanding is that he did not technically have input on the draft and did not officially take over until after the draft.
You’re right about him not having any hand in the draft. I think he had administrative control once he was hired but handed over control of the draft to Deric Ladnier.
The Royals spreadsheet has an error. Dayton Moore took over after the 2006 draft. So it should not be counted as his draft.
TwinsVet, pinkiepinkerton was clearly considering the fact that the Twins moved Gomez for Hardy and Mulvey for Rauch. Thus, Santana for Hardy and Rauch.
I suppose you could look at it that way, but then it becomes Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon at some point.
The Twins traded Viola for Knoblauch for Milton for Punto… hence, we traded Frank Viola for Nick Punto. Sure, it’s a bogus example, but it shows the point. There’s got to be some sort of statute-of-limitations on how quickly you flip a guy. I don’t buy the idea that trading Santana, and then acquiring Hardy two years later, is like trading Santana for Hardy.
I suppose you could look at it that way, but then it becomes Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon at some point.
The Twins traded Viola for Knoblauch for Milton for Punto… hence, we traded Frank Viola for Nick Punto. Sure, it’s a bogus example, but it shows the point. There’s got to be some sort of statute-of-limitations on how quickly you flip a guy. I don’t buy the idea that trading Santana, and then acquiring Hardy two years later, is like trading Santana for Hardy.
I agree. I see trades as independent events…perhaps if you flip a guy within a month or two you can link them together. It’s an interesting discussion to say the Twins ended up with Hardy based on the haul from Santana. However, if Hardy turns out to be good for the Twins I would still count the Santana trade as a loss and the Gomez trade as a plus.
I haven’t given up on Delmon yet. I think he will be a good player. However, what has always killed me about the trade is the inclusion of Bartlett. I think Gardy has been on record with a similar comment. Garza is a talented head case that wasn’t going to fit on a Gardy team. I just wish the Twins could have found someone besides Bartlett to get Delmon here.
That is so true, if it ended up being a straight up trade of DY and Garza, then it would of been almost a wash up to this point. Garza is solid but untapped potential and so is DY. But as much as I like Harris, NO WAY would i have given him up straight for Bartlett.
As for Eduardo Morlan and Jason Pridie. Well, Pridie is still with the Twinks. So moral victory. Small yippie.
I agree. I see trades as independent events…perhaps if you flip a guy within a month or two you can link them together. It’s an interesting discussion to say the Twins ended up with Hardy based on the haul from Santana. However, if Hardy turns out to be good for the Twins I would still count the Santana trade as a loss and the Gomez trade as a plus.
I haven’t given up on Delmon yet. I think he will be a good player. However, what has always killed me about the trade is the inclusion of Bartlett. I think Gardy has been on record with a similar comment. Garza is a talented head case that wasn’t going to fit on a Gardy team. I just wish the Twins could have found someone besides Bartlett to get Delmon here.
It’s not some “linking game” or “Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.” The basic point is they wouldn’t have had Carlos Gomez to trade for J.J. Hardy if they hadn’t gotten him in the Santana trade. Ditto for Mulvey. Without Mulvey maybe they don’t get Rauch. You need to look at prospects as assets. It’s not always what they do here, but what they can bring in return.
So yes, Santana DOES equal Hardy, Rauch and Guerra. No point in even arguing it.
Think in terms of stocks.
I invest $100 (Santana). That investment turns into $50 (Gomez, etc). I invest that same $50 into another stock (Hardy, Rausch). That investment turns into $150. Does that means my first investment was good (Santana trade)? No. It means my second investment was good (Gomez/Mulvey trades).
Comparing investments in dollars and players are two different things though. The fact remains that without Gomez they might not have had the pieces they need to address their shortstop issue. Without Mulvey they might not have landed Rauch, who helped settle down their bullpen last season.
To me, you really can’t argue it. The end result of the trade was Santana for Hardy, Rauch and Guerra. To each their own though.
It’s not some “linking game” or “Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.” The basic point is they wouldn’t have had Carlos Gomez to trade for J.J. Hardy if they hadn’t gotten him in the Santana trade. Ditto for Mulvey. Without Mulvey maybe they don’t get Rauch. You need to look at prospects as assets. It’s not always what they do here, but what they can bring in return.
So yes, Santana DOES equal Hardy, Rauch and Guerra. No point in even arguing it.
TwinsVet, pinkiepinkerton was clearly considering the fact that the Twins moved Gomez for Hardy and Mulvey for Rauch. Thus, Santana for Hardy and Rauch.
It’s amazing to think of what the Twins had a potential to look like if they didn’t have a predisposition to trade away their best future talent. Santana, Hunter, Ortiz, etc.
Probably worth noting Hunter and Ortiz weren’t traded. And Hunter/Santana cite were in their prime, not merely “future talent”. Ortiz was, admittedly, unrecognized potential.
But yes, the Twins have a predisposition to let great players slip away. They’ve stayed competitive by replacing it well. As Twins fans we’ve come to accept we don’t have a payroll to support multiple superstars.
You’re right about Ortiz…he kinda came out of his shell in Boston in a big way. It has to be frustrating to see a player do that. I can’t say the Sox fans have seen any similar situations. Javier Vasquez could be, I suppose. He was good with the Sox, but he had an every-other-start habit where he would pitch like Cy Young for the first 4 or 5 innings and then blow up. He doesn’t seem to be doing it now.
Ortiz came out of nowhere…..Ortiz took drugs. Ortiz was nothing more than an average player that took advantege of PED’s, became a stud and is now slowly fading into the backround as a has been that without drugs, never was. He will soon join the McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Manny gang. A bunch of cheaters that will never be in the HoF.Should Twins fans be sad they missed out on loveable Papi? Only if the assume he would be the same PED user he became after he left. And liar?
How is that not a linking game? In the long run, yes, Santana equals Hardy, Rauch, and Guerra. But stating that the Santana trade was good because we eventually got Hardy and Rauch? No. The trade was Santana for Gomez, Mulvey, Humber, and Guerra. Not Hardy and Rauch. Smith did well to trade some of those players away (though I’m still not a fan of the Hardy-Gomez swap), but the Santana trade itself was NOT good. You can’t use players we receive in the future to judge a prior trade. It’s not like Smith made the trade with the intent to turn around two years later and trade Gomez for Hardy and Mulvey for Rauch.
So yes…there is a point in arguing it.
Just an observation I saw, these trade histories aren’t complete.
For example, listed is the Ron Mahay for Cash trade.
However, Cash for Josh Anderson is not listed.
I apologize my excel failed to load the entire document for some strange reason.
IN KENNY WILLIAMS I TRUST!!!!
Great moves….sure the swisher deal wasn’t very good, but he has been on the ball with many many others..Peavy, Javier in recieving and giving him to braves, Thornton, Jenks off Waivers, extensions of Buerhle, Dye, Konerko, Quentin.
GO GO WHITESOX
He’s shaped up perfect so far HAHA
How is Rios shaping up for the Sox for this season?
We’ll let you know when the season starts.
thats the sickest name i have ever seen
his golf game has improved immensely this winter, thanks for pointing out something we dont look at enough
To think shapiro got brandon phillips, cliff lee and sizemore in one trade is ridiculous… then got hafner a little while after…
looking at that potential is purely ridiculous. If hafner kept up his hitting, and phillips stayed in cleveland along with v-mart… that’s a mashing lineup, with two aces in lee and CC, yikes
the trades that will define Kenny Williams era in Chicago are the Jake Peavy Trade and the Alex Rios Acquiration. Kenny gave up no prospects for Rios, but inadvertedly missed out on signing Chone Figgins and more because of it. While there’s no guarantee they would have gotten him, w/o Rios they definitely would have been one of the highest bidders. they also could have added another player on top of Figgins, like maybe keeping Jermaine Dye, or something. Meanwhile the Peavy trade, there’s not a doubt that Kenny gave up way less that what one would normally have to give up for a player of Peavy’s caliber. Clayton Richard is talented, but doesnt project to be more than a third starter, and Poreda is a loose cannon. the financial commitment is reasonable for a player of his caliber.
Why do they need Figgins when they have Juan Pierre? They’re both of a similar age and similar leadoff ability, and Pierre is not only making less money, but will have a majority of his salary covered by the Dodgers. I think it was a road less traveled than the Figgins hype, and proved that KW is one of baseball’s masterminds. Signing Figgins long-term would have committed a lot more money, and would have blocked Jared Mitchell out of the leadoff spot for at least two years. Plus, having Rios and Teahen in the lineup gives the Sox some power guys with more speed than they’ve had in the past. (Please don’t tell me you honestly expect Rios to hit .160 this year.)To me, the trade that defines Williams’s career to this point is Carlos Lee for Pods and Luis Vizcaino. That single trade completely changed the face of the White Sox, and gave them their spark plug at the top of the order as well as an important piece of their lights-out 2005 bullpen. That was one of his best trades, along with Borchard for Thornton and Carter for Quentin, and his boldest trade was McCarthy and Paisano for Danks, Masset and Rasner. I try to pretend that both Swisher trades never happened.