The Red Sox are taking on a flier on Lucas Giolito, announcing to today that they have signed the right-hander. It is reportedly a two-year, $38.5MM guarantee that allows the CAA client to opt out after the first season. Giolito will collect an $18MM salary next year and would receive a $1MM buyout if he exercises the opt-out. His ’25 salary is worth $19MM.
If he doesn’t opt out next winter, a conditional option kicks in covering the 2026 campaign. Were Giolito to throw fewer than 140 innings in 2025, the Sox would have a $14MM club option. If he reaches or tops 140 frames, he’d convert that provision to a $19MM mutual option. Regardless of the option value, there’d be a $1.5MM buyout. The deal also contains $1MM in performance bonuses in each of the next two seasons.
It’s a modified pillow contract for the 29-year-old. That reflects a dismal final few months of last season. Giolito looked on track for a nine-figure deal early in the summer. Over his first 21 starts with the White Sox, he carried a 3.79 ERA while striking out more than a quarter of batters faced. Chicago’s fall out of contention made him one of the top starters available at the deadline.
A trade sending Giolito alongside reliever Reynaldo López to the Angels looked like a boost to his market value. Joining a fringe contender gave him an outside shot at a playoff berth. More meaningfully for his free agency, it took the qualifying offer off the table, as players who change teams midseason can’t be issued the QO.
That’s not how things played out. Giolito was one of the worst pitchers in MLB from the deadline onwards. He made only six starts for the Halos before they placed him on waivers, dumping the remainder of his salary after the team fell from contention to help limbo underneath the luxury tax line. Giolito was hit hard for both Los Angeles and the Guardians, who snagged him off the waiver wire at the end of August.
Over his final 12 appearances, he was tagged for a 6.96 ERA through 63 1/3 innings. He was staggeringly prone to the longball, allowing 21 homers (nearly one in every three innings) over that stretch. His walk rate also spiked. He handed out free passes to nearly 11% of opponents after issuing walks at a manageable 8.3% clip in Chicago.
Short of a major injury, it’d be hard to draw up a more frustrating final two months before free agency. That said, there’s a lot in his career résumé that made him arguably the top reclamation target in the rotation class. Giolito turned in upper mid-rotation results between 2019-21, combining for a 3.47 ERA with an excellent 30.7% strikeout percentage despite the hitter-friendly nature of Chicago’s Guaranteed Rate Field.
He has allowed nearly five earned runs per nine in each of the past two seasons, albeit for different reasons. His 4.90 mark in 2022 was attributable largely to a .340 average on balls in play, by far the highest rate of his career. That dropped to .274 last season, and his early-season results again painted the picture of a solid #3 starter. Then came the late-season homer barrage that left him with a 4.88 ERA at year’s end.
The longball has always been a bit of a problem for Giolito, but his second-half home run rate is unsustainably high. Boston is betting on positive regression in that department, hoping that’ll result in mid-rotation results. While Giolito’s whiffs are down from his 2019-21 peak, he still misses bats at an above-average level. Opposing hitters have swung through 12.2% of his offerings in each of the last two years, which tops the 10.8% league mark for starting pitchers. His fastball sits around 93 MPH and he misses a decent number of bats with both his changeup and slider.
Giolito’s performance has varied over the past few seasons. His durability has not. The 6’6″ hurler has taken the ball almost every fifth day for the last six years. He hasn’t had an injured list stint longer than two weeks at any point in his MLB career. He hasn’t had any arm-related absences as a big leaguer. Giolito has started 29 or more games in each of the past five full schedules and took the full slate of 12 rotation turns during the shortened season. Only Aaron Nola, Gerrit Cole, José Berríos and Patrick Corbin have started more games over that stretch. He’s eighth in the majors in innings pitched since 2018.
A source of volume innings is a sensible addition to a talented but volatile Boston pitching staff. Chris Sale, Nick Pivetta, Brayan Bello, Tanner Houck, Garrett Whitlock and Kutter Crawford are among the in-house options for the Opening Day rotation. Sale has battled various injuries over the past few seasons. Pivetta, Houck, Whitlock and Crawford have all worked out of the bullpen at times. Aside from Crawford, that group has generally found more success in long relief than out of the rotation. Bello’s rotation spot isn’t in jeopardy, but his production dipped at the end of his first full major league season.
That made adding a starter an offseason priority for chief baseball officer Craig Breslow. The Sox were on the periphery of the Yoshinobu Yamamoto market before he signed with the Dodgers. They’d been tied to Jordan Montgomery as well, although recent reporting suggested they were pivoting towards the second tier. Giolito becomes Breslow’s first significant free agent acquisition as Boston’s front office leader. The Sox could still explore the rotation market — they’ve recently been tied to NPB left-hander Shota Imanaga and old friend James Paxton — but this signing may lead them to turn their main focus to another area of need like second base.
The contract falls in line with MLBTR’s prediction of two years and $44MM from the start of the offseason, when we ranked him this winter’s #17 free agent. The two-year guarantee with an opt-out after the first season has become more commonplace in recent years for priority rebound candidates. It affords the player more security than would a straight one-year pact while allowing him to get back to the market after one season if he bounces back.
Giolito turns 30 in July, so he’d be well-positioned for a lofty multi-year pact next winter if he gets on track. Since he was ineligible for the qualifying offer, the signing doesn’t cost Boston any draft compensation. If he pitches well enough to opt out a year from now, the Red Sox would likely make him the QO, allowing them to recoup a draft choice if he only spends one year in Massachusetts.
The Red Sox’s 2024 payroll projection now sits around $187MM, according to Roster Resource. They’re just shy of $200MM from a luxury tax perspective, keeping them $37MM below next year’s lowest threshold. Boston opened last season with a player payroll in the $181MM range after topping $206MM the prior season. They did not exceed the luxury tax threshold in 2023.
Jeff Passan of ESPN first reported the Red Sox were signing Giolito to a two-year, $38.5MM guarantee with an opt-out; Passan was also first with the salary structure and the 2026 option specifics. Chris Cotillo of MassLive first reported the $1MM in annual incentives and specified that the buyout applied regardless of the option scenario.
Image courtesy of USA Today Sports.
aroid95
Fuel up the duck boats!!!
FletcherFan69
How could Chaim do this
Canosucks
As a Mets fan I am beginning to love the Saux!
First they took that bum of our hands Lowly Rodriguez last year and now they jumped on a live grenade and took that bum Giolito for big money!
I was in distress seing the Mets talk about him but Merry Christmas from Boston and Happy New Year no 41 HR bum!!
They say he is an innings eater well Boston eat this!! 🙂
Buckner
Wow. Gotta be honest, didn’t see that.
And for $18 big ones.
Red Sox Restoration Project
You’re aware that every other season before last he’s given up 25 homeruns or less a season?
User 3044878754
The trend is the recent trend. Bombs away at Fenway!!!
seth3120
I agree for what a bounce back candidate is going for this offseason I’d say they did well
Yanksfan1030
You’re aware he was never that good except one season?
Yanksfan1030
You might wanna recheck your stats. 2021 and 2018 he gave up 27 home runs each. Last I checked that’s more than 25. You can stop acting like
He’s good
Now.
Fever Pitch Guy
Cora – Why do you present false information as fact? You think we are all too dumb to look up basic stats? You think we all work for the idiotic Red Sox front office?
He gave up 27 homers in each of 2018 and 2021.
But that’s besides the point, he has flat-out SUCKED for the past two seasons.
Breslow and Bailey think they can fix him? If they can, great.
If not? Then the Sox have wasted $38.5M over the next two years on a guy that has had a 4.89 ERA and 1.37 WHIP the past two seasons, nearly all of which was in the weak-ass AL Central.
And BTW, career vs:
Bal – 5.19 ERA and 1.50 WHIP
NYY – 4.85 ERA and 1.50 WHIP
Tor – 5.40 ERA and 1.408 WHIP
This is a helluva stupid gamble the Sox are taking and is not a good reflection on Breslow at all.
Red Sox Restoration Project
I’ll take him for one or two years at that price. If he proves terrible, it doesn’t hurt us long term.
spareman7 2
Fever it’s a great reflextion on Breslow and the Red Sox. They are spending big money to make sure they end up in last place again.
SalaryCapMyth
@Cano. I don’t mind letting a poster do their home run celebration and all but you’re a little to vindictive for the fan of a team that was probably major league baseball 2023 most embarrassing team.
Smacky
Wasn’t he the main piece of the Adam Eaton trade? That trade ended up being pretty fair
dclivejazz
That’s a lot of $$$ for a flyer.
Murphy NFLD
Yea maybe 18 for 1yr or 30 for 2 at most. Maybe he didnt want to pitch there or had better offers elsewhere. Or maybe he just took the best 1 yr pillow deal he could get
Red Sox Restoration Project
Well, people complained that they didn’t spend money so are you here to complain just to complain or actually complain because you don’t like it with valid reasoning? Hard to tell at this point.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Also Fever I wouldn’t sweat it because there’s a high likelihood of the Sox also landing either a Montgomery, Snell, or Imanaga. If you guys can land one of those dudes, the Giolito signing is a bit more palatable. At least you’re not an M’s fan staring at Mitch Garver as your lone free agent signing to provide some much needed offensive prowess. (max 310 AB in a season,EVER). Take it easy…
Red Sox Restoration Project
I don’t think they’re getting any of those (Imagana, Montgomery, Snell). It’s pretty clear that spending money for a lengthy amount of time is not what they want to do.
I think it will come via trade instead.
Yanksfan1030
I think people question why they can’t hand out 25 million a year for an ace type. And gave 18 million a year to a guy who was just waived by the angels like a month after they traded for him.
DBH1969
@Yanksfan,
This!!!! Post of the thread!!!
For another 10mils they could have landed Yamamoto!
It isn’t about if they are spending or not, it is where the money is going, and for who.
With that said. The most important Stat for me here is IP. He will give at least 160 innings. Sox need that. I don’t know that it is worth 18 mils with this guy, but I will take it
bheath33
They waived him to save salary.
JoeBrady
Yanksfan10303 hours ago
I think people question why they can’t hand out 25 million a year for an ace type.
======================
It is really a totality of the deal, not the annual number. I’d bet serious money that Snell will be better next year by a fair margin. I wouldn’t even object to us signing him. But Snell is probably going to get something like $210M/7, and that might look weak even just three years from now.
“And gave 18 million a year to a guy who was just waived by the angels like a month after they traded for him.”
=====================
That’s not really meaningful. They waived him to get under the cap. A better way of looking at it is that the Angels traded (w Lopez) for a top-100 prospect + a recent 2nd rounder.
Johnny Devil
Even with the dozen or so ifs,will he,can he and he never wills in this convoluted contract, I agree its a BIG overpay. But who wants to pitch in Beantown.
Dogbone
No offense to Bosox nation, but I’ve watched Giolito P for the Chisox the last few years – $19M is quite a gamble.
But it does make me feel a little better about my Cubs paying Taillon $16M a season.
Fever Pitch Guy
Ignorant – You’re right, I’ve been saying all along they will likely acquire one of the three you’ve mentioned or Burnes. I won’t judge the offseason until March at the earliest.
But why give that much money to a back end of the rotation type guy? That’s something the Dodgers or Yankees might do, but not the frugal Red Sox. My fear is they’re projecting him to be one of their Top Two starting pitchers next year. Hope I’m wrong.
As for your M’s, why are they so cheap? They had the biggest profit in MLB last year, Snell wants to pitch for the hometown crowd, why aren’t they in on him?
GASoxFan
DBH – the problem with what you and yanksfan said is the player needs to WANT to go to Boston, and at that salary. It’s not a video game where you adjust the slider to the highest number and, poof, the guy is yours.
As longtime Sox fans, or, as fans of the sports best and most historic rivalry (at least in my opinion), it can be hard to remember that this team is BAD the way bloom left it. Defense is some of MLBs worst, you’ve got a manager who is a proven cheat and liar, and the front office has a history of spurning and disrespecting your best talent, all while last place divisional finishes are something of a norm, and, now you’ve got a rookie leading baseball ops who you don’t know what to expect from in the coming years.
Why would you sign there instead of a drama-free environment with a winning culture?
So for all we know Breslow could’ve been interested in guys at an equal or higher salary than they signed for. But if the player or his agent says ‘no thanks’ over the phone…. well, you can’t hang it on the new FO as if they weren’t interested or willing to pay. AND, publically disclosing what you were willing to offer free agent x only drives up the ask from free agent y knowing that money was on the table for the same position.
Red Sox Restoration Project
You might regret this deal as a Mets fan. They have a lot to regret already, so rub it in like your team is doing that much better
Fever Pitch Guy
DBH – Lance Lynn just signed a 1-year $11M contract, he pitched 183 innings this year.
if it was truly about just giving innings, Sox way overpaid.
And it’s especially absurd for Sox management to seek out acquiring a pitcher who pitches more innings, when Cora is chiefly responsible for all the short outings of his own pitchers. That is something I never see addressed here. Hopefully Bailey and Breslow will change the handling of the pitching staff so that SP’s are ALLOWED to pitch more innings per start.
920kodiak
Flags fly forever.
GASoxFan
Fever – Lynn is also going into his age 37!?!?! season, and doesn’t have the workhorse track record over the past few years that Giolito does, having thrown up 120 IP x2 and 150 IP once in the past few seasons, throwing out 2020 of course.
There is also the upside.
So, going 7+ years younger, for a stronger innings eater profile, with upside, has value. Note I exclude the WAR lead for Lucas because for pitchers, I dont like it.
paddyo furnichuh
@OIC….But we’re okay
Smacky
Because they don’t know what the deal with their TV contract is. I don’t know specifically but they’re operating under a tight budget and are assuming they’ll get minimal local TV money.
Canosucks
@SalaryCapMyth I agree that I am a fan of a team that was bad in 2023 but that doesn’t mean I want to watch Home Run Derby at Citi Field either. Not vindictive just analytical.
I would rather see and unknown AAA pitcher or the like get a chance and if he gets bombed then time well spent with an outcome and not on a guy from a weak division and rumors of sticky stuff.
Secondly I work 1 mile from Angel Stadium and I caught his act already. Nothing personal…strictly business.
Canosucks
@Cora the Explora My comments are mutually exclusive
Doesn’t matter if the Mets lose 101 games next year it doesn’t mean I can’t have an opinion on a trade?
Its not like I want to see the Saux fail, not my style I am just glad you took Lowely Rodriguez off our hands last year and this guy this year. Thank You!
BTW how did Lowley Rodriguez work out last year?
DBH1969
Good point, GA. I believe Yamamoto wanted west coast and use east coast drive up bids.
mboss
It was a one sided deal for the Whitesox. It was Giolito, Reynaldo Lopez and Dane Dunning for Eaton. Giolito was pretty dam good for 3-4 years. The Whitesox turned Dunning into Lance Lynn, and Lopez became a good.late inning arm.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Making up an alt to troll another commenter on a public message board says way more about you than any point you’re trying to make.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
You are being turned away because you are an annoying Troll of the most feeble and pathetic kind !!! And you add nothing to the conversation, so may I show you to the door now??
99CaptainJudge99
@Fletcher- I thought Chaim wasn’t there anymore?
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
That would be 18 big ones in the first half (hrs) and 18 big ones in the second half, whats that 2 million per home run?
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
Duh, $500,000 per homer, I need to ease up on the edibles…
Boxscore
18MM for a longball prone pitcher in Fenway. Could be a horror show.
If it turns out that’s it’s only this addition for pitching and picking up a 2B then this 1st season of Breslows tenure I consider a fail.
deweybelongsinthehall
Signing depends on whether or not there is a bigger deal for a starter. If this is the top move, it’s likely another last place finish. If though they sign Montgomery and send Whitlock and Houck to the pen (or make a trade). I’m ok with this. The one-two cannot be Sale and Giolito even if both rebound in 24.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Curly are you sure those are legal in your state?
Fever Pitch Guy
Box – You ain’t kidding.
Just imagine him facing Judge, Stanton and Soto.
Or Vlad, Springer and Bo.
Or Santander, Henderson and Adley.
Or Paredes, Siri and Arozarena
DirtyWater04
I’m with you. If this is “it” as far as pitching additions go, or the only thing resembling a “big ticket” item, this is a horrible move. If they think they’ve spotted something they can fix with him so picking him up is part of a larger overhaul of the rotation that also includes bringing in someone more reliable like Montgomery or Snell or Stroman, this is fine. Time will tell. Trying to be cautiously optimistic even though they’ve been giving us every reason not to be.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
@Fever I truly think Giolito has a reasonable shot at being a valuable bounce back candidate. He’s only 29, no arm problems; right? I know the guy seems bright, teachable, and personable. He could have just been the victim of a toxic clubhouse and pitching coaches and staff phoning it in. I think having some support and positive comraderie with coaches, etc. could be all he needs. The guy has the pedigree and been a winner since his college days. Not trying to blow smoke…just think he’s a better quality pickup than we’ve seen in awhile with this FO.
Fever Pitch Guy
Ignorant – It wasn’t just one team, it was 3 different teams that couldn’t fix him. Including a Cleveland team that has a pretty good track record of maximizing pitcher potential.
So the Red Sox can do what 3 teams couldn’t? They will need to prove that.
carllafong
As an Angel fan I can tell you Giolito was beyond horrible. I have no idea how the Green Monster will survive the rockets that will be fired into the breach. Bombs Away! Horrible signing and ridiculous money.
99CaptainJudge99
I heard Giancarlo is available
A'sfaninLondonUK
@aroid
Must admit, I’ve enjoyed a duck boat ride in Boston. Must also admit that the duck boats are more likely to keep a rotation afloat than Giolito. Is he a 4th or 5th starter? That seems a ridiculous pay out even against the likes of Lance Lynn…
aroid95
I guess they don’t tell jokes in London
A'sfaninLondonUK
@aroid
Tell em? We f***** write them darling…
aroid95
I’m not impressed
MafiaBass
That’s a symptom of not signing ohtani: Nobody wants to play for the Red Sox, and convincing them will cost more money.
99CaptainJudge99
This was supposed to say” the Red Sox sign Jordan Montgomery” I know the fans will obviously be pist!
all in the suit that you wear
Giolito had a weird year last year. Not sure what to think right now. I think we will need to see which Giolito we get next year.
carllafong
He’s been bad for the last few years and absolutely horrible last year. Unless his arm is suddenly jet propelled so his fastball has gained 5MPH this dude who gave up 41 homers might give up 60 with the ‘MONSTA” so close in Left.
Red Sox Restoration Project
Not a huge loss if we overpay a year or two and he flops. A much bigger problem if we signed Ohtani or Yamamoto to a 10 or 12 year contract and they flop in year 3.
carllafong
A very strange perspective. Signing the ineffective pitcher who has been blasted for the last two years is good and not signing the best player on the planet and the best starter available is good because they might flop down the road? That’s the same logic that prevented you from signing Mookie Betts and you see how well that turned out? Right? Are you aware of the ridiculous amount of money the Red Sox have/make? This money isn’t coming out of your allowance.
Red Sox Restoration Project
I’m looking at it positively. Let me put it this way: if he’s terrible for a year or two it’s not going to kill us anymore and won’t hurt our future.
Gioloto was decent for the White Sox last year until he was traded so I don’t think it’s unrealistic to think he can’t get back on track.
We will see.
Fever Pitch Guy
carl – Excellent post! It is the epitome of absurdity for the team with the 3rd-highest revenue in MLB to cry poverty as an excuse for not signing the best players. I still am confident they will open up John Henry’s dusty wallet and pay Monty or Snell or Burnes (extension), but if it doesn’t happen and the team once again has a middle-third payroll next year, I expect an even bigger fan backlash than this year.
johnrealtime
I seem to be in the minority but I like this deal. In a world where a player who hasn’t played in mlb gets 300+ million, this is a great buy low deal. Short term, so the risk is limited. He has great stuff and pedigree, could easily see him bouncing back and being a cy young candidate
Red Sox Restoration Project
I agree except for the Cy Young part. Gioloto has a career FIP over 4.00 and hasn’t eclipsed 200 innings in a season. That being said, I definitely think he can be reliable and the overpay isn’t bad over two seasons.
johnrealtime
When I said Cy young candidate, I actually meant that I think he’ll receive cy young votes, like he has in 3/6 of his full seasons
Red Sox Restoration Project
I still say Cy Young is a stretch, considering how he has had an FIP over 4.00 the last three seasons, but your overall consensus is sound.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
And I was mocked, ridiculed, and nearly tar-and-feathered and ran out on a railpost for simply questioning the 13million the Orioles handed over to Bobby Thigpen instead of using that cash towards a starting pitcher like Giolito. People were agog and aghast that I would presume Giolito would be even worth 13million. “Gross overpay”…they fumed & spittled.
ohyeadam
Agreed John. On its face it doesn’t look right but in comparison to other deals it looks fine
carllafong
He gave up 41 homers. What exactly do you like? Keeping in mind HOPE is not a strategy and we are not in ‘Wonderland’ where wishes and dreams come true.
Red Sox Restoration Project
41 homers in one year. No other year he averaged anywhere close and from the article, at least 1/3 of those homeruns were when he left the White Sox. Hard to tell if it’s decline, ability or just a bad change of scenery in such a small sample size.
carllafong
Oh, well then it’s okay. I’m sure the fact his fastball has diminished dramatically and he’s another year older will help him cut those homers down at a homerun stadium— not Anaheim (a pitcher’s park).
GASoxFan
I’m not totally against this signing.
Look, this is a building/bridge year for the team. It’s all it was ever going to be with how the 2023 season left the roster.
You’re got a SHORT TERM deal, and you always pay more for a short term.
First outcome is they get 2-3 years of an innings eater, which, does help the rest of the team and bullpen. Heck, porcello made more money for a similar production outside his award winning year, and that was a long time ago now. Pitching is expensive.
Second outcome is he bounces back, exercises his opt out, they got a great year of production for 18m, AND, they get to tag him with a QO to get a comp pick out of it.
Overall, I liked the deal more and more as I read the finer details.
It’s not earth shattering, but, the SHORT term makes it less risky BY a LOT than what the likes of snell if going to command. And it coming when it did should tell you a bit of how bkras is marketing the demands for the top remaining arms as far as price/years. Buyers on those guys are likely to get bent over
Knuckles
You are in the minority in liking this deal!
Fever Pitch Guy
GASox – If next year truly is yet another bridge year, then why commit that much money over a 2-year period? Why not just make do with what they’ve already got? They’ve already got Bello, Crawford, Sale, Pivetta, Houck and they want to continue the Whitlock starter experimentation. Heck, even Winck could be stretched out as a starter.
No, they expect Giolito to return to sticky stuff form which is a big and expensive gamble.
Let’s say you’re right and they plan to spend big NEXT offseason, you don’t think they could use that $19.25M that will likely be wasted in 2025?
“Pitching is expensive” …. now you sound just like John Henry! A billionaire owner of the 3rd-highest revenue team in MLB making a huge profit every year, complaining about the cost of players.
GASoxFan
Hey, if sounding like him would only give me his money….
I get Giolito has you mad, half about the player, half about your impulsive oath to swear off Gelato which you surely regret but will stick to your word only too well to back off from.
I think 2024 will be about improving the team, not conpletely fixing it, and making it a better destination for FA desirability the following offseason. Also, not hamstringing the club long term.
Too many of us assume the top tier guys really want to be here, but, look at August 2019-2023 and tell me what you see… I see a train wreck. You need to rebuild the brand and the trust for FAs to walk in.
You’ve said more than once Cora yanks guys too early. I hope Breslow takes a stronger hand AGAINST that than weak-minded bloom, and, Cora will be harder pressed to go against a former pitcher when arguing BP and SP use strategy.
Think of a stalwart innings-eater as a bulwark against some of that behavior – the tool is there as it were, which, HOPEFULLY aids in keeping the BP from being as gassed.
This is a 4 part contract – youth/rebound upside, IP limit capability, short term premium, recent results. Each piece gives you a chunk of that $19m, and as many others here are prone to saying, it’s only $$$, Henry has enough of it.
I want to watch how this signing plays out. It’s not your usual front-loaded 2yr bloom deal, and, it’s not a washed up 35-36-37 year old either. This will be age 30.
Fever Pitch Guy
GASox – Great post, especially the part about the gelato! I think what aggravates me the most is their tendency to pay good money for players who have been on a downward trend. If they have had bad years because of an injury that’s now heeled, that’s one thing. But gambling on being able to “fix” a pitcher is not something contenders do. I know we view this year differently, I think they can contend with a couple reasonable additions while you think they are a last place team no matter what they do. That’s probably why we view Giolito differently, you see it as nothing to lose.
Fever Pitch Guy
GASox – Does attending today’s game affect my boycott even with my ticket being free and no concessions purchased and free parking down the street?
Fever Pitch Guy
GASox – What about the third outcome?
He suffers a serious injury early in spring training which forces him to miss the entire season and pick up the 2025 player option …. and he misses most of 2025 as well.
Spring training is only six weeks away, let’s see if I’m right.
10centBeerNight
Good get for Boston. I tend to believe the divorce thing has a lot to do with his 2023 stats. And that’s the going rate, like it or not
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
The man takes the ball. Definitely need a Workhorse in the rotation besides the Nick Piveta option.
deweybelongsinthehall
Gary, if both are given the same chance, I wonder who performs better in 24, Giolito or Pavetta?
DirtyWater04
We’ve seen what Pivetta can do as a starter. His ceiling isn’t too far off from what Giolito has established as his floor. You can pan this as an overpay, but let’s not get too carried away.
deweybelongsinthehall
Pivetta has been inconsistent but has NEVER given up homers like Giolito. Pivetta proved himself last year on the pen when he earned his rotation spot again.
Fever Pitch Guy
dewey – Pivetta wasn’t in the pen last year, he was a starter the entire time and put up a 4.56 ERA which was MUCH better than what Giolito put up.
This year as a starter Pivetta was basically the same, 4.66 ERA which was MUCH better than what Giolito put up.
Now Pivetta can point to the Giolito contract when he’s negotiating his own extension, see how that works?
Fever Pitch Guy
Gary – If all you want is a guy to give you 170 innings with a 5 ERA, then might as well bring back Porcello or acquire Lance Lynn or Jordan Lyles. each at a fraction of the cost.
I guess you probably spent $10K on a Chevy Chevette because it gets you from Point A to Point B for half the price of a good car.
Knuckles
They can sign me as a workhorse to go out and get the stuffing’s kicked out of me for 5 innings, same result for a lot less!
A'sfaninLondonUK
@beernight
Was it the whole of south side Chicago divorcing him?
Slow day at work
@10centBeerNight Giolito is just not spinning the ball at nearly the same rate as he used to. Not sure if the divorce has anything to do with this, some people say that it’s because he isn’t using sticky stuff anymore. He still can be a good pitcher, I think he just needs to change his approach knowing that his curveball isn’t a strike out pitch anymore.
A'sfaninLondonUK
@slow day
I’m sure he’s a decent fellow, sings the anthem well, walks the elderly across the road, and tips his hat to ladies…
But he is a mediocre pie chucker at $20 million a season. Why doesn’t Boston spend a few quid more for a proper pie chucker with gravy.
Monty’s pies are available and his lady wife is working in the area.
Slow day at work
@A’sfaninLondonUK I think $39M for 2 years is crazy! I was thinking he would get a 1 year $12M-$15M max including incentives with a non-contending team
ou812jay8
You got the “non-contending team” part right.
Greenwell
Ouch! Lol!
padrepapi
Coming into the season MLBTR ranked him as the #6 free agent, ahead of Jordan Montgomery (8th) and Blake Snell (10th).
mlbtraderumors.com/2023/04/2023-24-mlb-free-agent-…
He had a rough year, but has been one of the most durable starters since 2018 and still racked up over 200k’s in 2023.
Spending 38m on Giolito seems smarter than 150-200m on Snell or Montgomery. If I was a Sox fan I would be pretty thrilled getting a 29 year old FA starter with his track record for such a reasonable fairly low-risk investment. Dude has struck out the 4th most batters in baseball over these past 5 years.
Canosucks
@padrepapi Ks mean nothing when your giving up 2 gopher balls per start!!! and an ERA that maybe is more important?!
They should give free tickets to fans for pitchers who consume innings while fans consume beer at $23 a pop
revolver
If he makes 25 starts, I bet he gives up 50 bombs.
Fever Pitch Guy
Padre – Rough year? Then WTF you call 2022 which was even WORSE!
This guy has flat out SUCKED for 2 straight years.
I’m keeping this short because I’m driving. All I can say is if they don’t sign Snell or Monty I’ll
A'sfaninLondonUK
@fever pitch
Save travels
But when an A’s fan feels bad for a Sox fan – the BB world has gone wonky…
Red Sox Restoration Project
Oh, what else is new. Fever Pitch Guy found something else to complain about. I’d like to see him do better.
FYI- in terms of FIP and homeruns allowed, Gioloto’s 2022 season is far better than his 2023 season.
Again, Fever is a guy who usually comes in an argument well informed. I don’t see it in this one
Fever Pitch Guy
UK – Thank you, and yes I agree.
Next year is the 20th anniversary of “The Team”.
Imagine how they feel, watching the Red Sox front office and some of their fans try to justify this signing by pointing out he’s an “innings eater” who comes at a lower price than the other much better free agent pitchers.
It’s a horrible Red Sox trend, going after players who are cheaper because they have been on a steady decline.
Didn’t they learn from Panda? Story? Kike? And so many others?
Apparently not.
jmi1950
And this site predicted 2yrs/44MM by the Mets or O’s — so this is market value. The ??? are can they fix him and how will he handle Fenway. & the Boston press/fans when he has his 1st bad start.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
@padrepapi You always have calm, coherent, and reasoned posts …thank you, I enjoy reading them.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
@Fever!!!! You know better than to drive and text at the same time! Don’t let your wife catch you. It’s dangerous enough on the highways & byways, now we have a disgruntled, fevered Fever texting away lol !!!!
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
@A’sfaninLondon For some reason beyond my capacity to remember I had you muted for a long time last season and I have no idea why because you’re a pretty funny bloke and I always enjoy an English perspective. So my apologies for that indiscretion on my part. Cheers!
A'sfaninLondonUK
Morning @ Ignorant S of a B
I think you’ll have muted by nemesis A’sfaninUK who was an absolute sphincter of an individual, so much so, that I muted a fellow A’s fan. Mercifully, he seems to have disappeared up said sphincter, and my prayers were blessed and answered. Easy mistake to make, though I’ve been an MLBTR fan about 7 years (back to the joys of Zabial!!!) and all was cushty until that clown appeared.
Regardless, thank you, and have a wonderful New Year in 2024
Red Sox Restoration Project
He gave up 40 homeruns only one season. No other season touched that amount. Easily an anomaly.
Fever Pitch Guy
UK – Same thing I was thinking! You are such a pleasant chap, I didn’t think there could possibly be TWO A’s fans in the UK. All I remembered was the other one being a proper belland. Thank you for clearing that up and Happy 2024 to you!
Fever Pitch Guy
Ignorant – You’re right!
This is bad, so bad I told Mrs Fever we are not buying gelato again as long as he’s in a Sox uniform. And I love gelato!
I’m just glad his name doesn’t sound like ice cream or pizza or burger.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Fever: LOLOL I almost fell off my stool !! For heaven’s sake its ice cream over gelatto (or is it Giolito?) any day of the week. Gellato is way too fruity, and not enough cream. So fruity it’s tart. Can Mrs Fever make a mean Boston Creame Pie?? Being a native Seattle-ite, I don’t even know what that is or ever seen one.
JoeBrady
I think you’ll have muted by nemesis A’sfaninUK
=======================
LOL! I had the same thought. You’re alter-ego is a nimrod, and I was wondering why you suddenly became funny & rational. Now I know why!
Fever Pitch Guy
Cora – I’ve never seen you before, you must be very new. That would explain how you could possibly miss the fact I have been very positive with no complaints ever since Bloom was canned. You make absolutely no sense and are constantly lying. Speaking of which, I have yet to see your apology for intentionally lying about Giolito’s homerun totals. So you’re a troll, is that your thing?
I’ve brought over two dozen stats to the discussion, proof that I’m well informed. As for FIP and homeruns, they are meaningless compared to what matters most – ERA.
The #1 goal of any starting pitcher is Run Prevention. Peripherals don’t matter, allowing as few runs as possible is all that matters.
Do you watch any games? Did you watch Eovaldi’s last start in the World Series? He allowed baserunners up the ying yang, but the important thing is he made the big pitches when he needed to make them and he kept the opponent from scoring. That’s what WINNERS do.
6 innings pitched, 4 hits and 5 walks allowed … but ZERO runs. He did his job, screw the peripherals.
Fever Pitch Guy
Ignorant – Gelato comes in all flavors, not just fruit. My favorite is chocolate hazelnut, I would get it at Barnes & Noble every time I went to the Inner Harbor in Baltimore.
I’ve never been a fan of Boston Cream Pie, which is similar to an eclair.
Have you been to Pike Place Fish Market? I’ve always wanted to go there and see someone get hit by a flying fish.
Fever Pitch Guy
Joe – Years ago I went through the same thing, a couple people created handles nearly identical to mine and pretended to be me.
Like they say, imitation is the highest form of flattery.
Red Sox Restoration Project
And Fever Pitch, I’ve been around awhile. Used to be PWNdroia, So I know you well.
If I’m wrong about something, tell me that, but don’t call me a liar. That’s you as usual putting words in people’s mouths. Huge difference between wrong and lying.
But he did only give up 40 homeruns in one season, so how is that wrong? Unless it’s another comment. I had no intent of lying whatsoever. That is far from the truth. Wrong, maybe.
So I can’t take you seriously, and you’re disrespectful if you call me a liar. I might be wrong, fine, but maybe coach instead of call people out and act all high and mighty like you do.
Red Sox Restoration Project
And, since when is 40 the new 25? Giolito gave up 40 homeruns in one season. That’s not a lie.
I was wrong about the 25 homerun quote, I read it wrong. But 27 twice is not 40. You calling me a liar on that one?
So how did he give up 40 homeruns in two seasons? Huh Fever Pitch Guy? You’re at it again with negativity. Switch fanbases already if you highly detest it.
And Giolito even had Cy Young votes in previous seasons. Stats are all over the place. Could be bad, could be good, but to go all out and call it a failure now is just dumb. Let the season play out. Breslow at least did something.
carllafong
What about his ever diminished fastball that is down to the low 90s and provides no separation for his changeup? When this cat misses it goes a long way. 41 homers allowed. Ba-boom!
Corradoj30
Um, yay?
Simm
Seems risky based off the finish to last year.
FenwayFanatic
The Sox front office loves taking high risk, mid reward players. Under 10 % end up working out. Some of the success stories were Michael Wacha, Garrett Whitlock, and Adam Duvall. The failed projects were Corey Kluber, James Paxton, Jackie Bradley Jr, Jeter Downs, Trevor Story, Hirokazu Sawamura, Hansel Robles, Austin Davis, Bobby Dalbec, Luis Urias, Richard Bleier, Mauricio Llovera, Ryan Brasier, and Kaleb Ort to name a few. There were plenty more.
spudchukar
If Giolito can garner this type of cash, just imagine what better pitchers will be shooting for. The Cards were smart to strike early!
Travis’ Wood
Cards were smart to strike early? By overpaying for two 36 year olds?? Yeah I think not lol
Bostonsports85
It’s so funny when people don’t think about what their actually typing before hitting send .. these cardinal fans are always sour !!!
WillieMaysHayes24
Pot, meet kettle.
Travis’ Wood
Nobody wanted bums like Lance Lynn and Kyle Gibson. Hilarious that anyone thinks it was a good idea to jump the market to sign them
carllafong
If is a wonderful poem by Rudyard Kipling, but it is not a strategy that wins divisions or championships.
Fever Pitch Guy
Travis – Spud must have been thinking of that other midwest Central Division team, the Royals.
They had two great signings, Wacha and Lugo.
FenwayFanatic
Wacha is so underrated
MacGromit
@spud
I agree. The Cardinals coming in early and picking up what they wanted before the runaway contracts were signed for the level of talent they got was wise from a dollar perspective. Somebody has to pitch and Gibson is a fine #4. I appreciated all he brought to the Orioles last year. Nothing to write home about but kept the team in games until the bats could break out.
Gio’s dingers to dollars ratio is gonna be ugly.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
I’m sorry but John Mozeliak has got to be in the Top 5 most inept, overrated, and past his ‘sell-by date’ of any GM/PBO in the league. Why the Cardinal fans arent calling for his ouster from every rooftop in the greater Missouri tri-state area is beyond belief. There are very few days I don’t confuse him with one of the rotating used salesmen I see at the corner lot.
soxintwo
I wouldn’t say that Paxton was a fail. I don’t think you can totally comment on Trevor story just yet until the contract is completed. And I am not understanding if you’re just talking about taking a chance on guys that you believe our mid range. Dalbec was an up-and-coming in our minor-league system for years and then found to be more of a AAAA player. And I’m sure that we can find a lot of guys that were mid range that worked out very well that you’re not showing here the narrative is everything.
DirtyWater04
Soxintwo, to your point, the 2013 team was comprised mostly of successful dumpster dives. Of course the results in the 2014 season were the other side of that same coin, but it was completely worth it.
Would also say Hunter Renfroe, Kike Hernandez as successful examples. But the thing is these reclamation bets have seemed to pretty much only work out on position players when they have worked. The only pitchers I remember having even remotely positive results with were Andrew Miller and Adam Ottavino.
Fever Pitch Guy
Fenway – This isn’t the same situation as Wacha, because Wacha got “fixed” and pitched quite well halfway through the season prior to his signing with the Red Sox.
With Whitlock it was strictly a question of whether or not he could stay healthy.
Same with Duvall, it was all about his health, it’s a shame he didn’t play the whole season as DH. I think he would have had a great season.
carlos15
And the year before that.
BloodySox
The risk is either we miss the playoffs or we miss the playoffs
deweybelongsinthehall
Or we simply miss the playoffs.
Fever Pitch Guy
dewey – One silver lining, it increases the odds of Cora being removed as Red Sox manager.
Henry is not gonna scapegoat Breslow after just a few months.
mikevm3
That’s not Reynaldo López’s team
Hannibal8us
It’s going to be weird for both of them not seeing the other one when they walk into the clubhouse in the morning.
ric7744
That’s a Sf Gia to type of contract
Ghost Pepper
Lemme know when the ink’s dry.
bluepelotas
UNBELIEVABLE, almost 20MILLI a year LOL
Claydagoat
Look, a man from the past!
bluepelotas
Holy over pay! Yikes, Ohtani deal looking good LOL
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
Not really, look at the market bud, 36 yr old Kyle Gibson got 14m early this offseason. Gibson is guaranteed to be around a 5.00 era guy. Giolito has been elite in the past and good plenty of other times. The Sox are taking a chance on the upside Giolito has, if he doesn’t bounce back, oh well. He will still give you 180+ innings of Kyle Gibson production.
rct
Nearly $20 million a year for a worse-than-league-average innings eater like Giolito is incredible. You’re supposed to be paying him a small amount and hoping for a bounce back, not paying almost 8.5% of the CBT threshold. Silly move by the Sox.
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
So would you prefer the Sox to not sign a pitcher? Let’s be honest, it doesn’t seem like they are going after any of the top options this year. it’s obviously been costing teams this much or close to this much to sign even some of the b tier guys this offseason. At least with Giolito there is some upside at play. Obviously this isn’t the greatest or most ideal option but I think it was one of the better options in this price range. I’d honestly rather have Giolito at this price on the braves over what we gave Reynaldo Lopez.
D2323
Stearns keeps taking Ls. Gotta get Imanaga now.
Gwynning
Wait… you actually wanted Gio?
FenwayFanatic
I’m not sure anybody did. We are all just starved for pitching.
D2323
I think he’s a decent enough candidate to bounce back. So yes I wanted him over starting Butto or Megill all season. 20m a year is more than I would pay so I’m not unhappy the Mets didn’t get him but the starting pitching is going to be real bad next year as things stand, especially when the inevitable injuries happen. They have to add somebody.
Gwynning
Fair enough, good points gentlemen.
rct
“So yes I wanted him over starting Butto or Megill all season”
Megill (90) and Giolito (91) had nearly identical ERA+. Giolito had a higher FIP (5.27 to 4.90). Megill makes peanuts. Give me Megill all day.
Joe Spivey
Overpay
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
Can’t please you guys. Why haven’t we signed anybody.., and then when we do.., “over pay.”
Do you understand what the market is today? Jeepers this crowd is tough.
StreakingBlue
Seems high due to the nature of Fenway park being more offense oriented.
yewed
I agree with what you’re saying. I’m more focused on now what. If we assume CBT is the limit that doesn’t leave a whole lot of money left to get at least one more pitcher, a bat and 2B. More so if they do indeed sign Hernandez.
ibuititnoonecame
You can please us go out put your money where you mouth is and a secure the guy go get one of the top 3 free agents lock him up. Then take some “prospects” and go make a move that actually mover the damn needle….
yewed
That’s the thing, those days are gone. Have been for awhile.
They’re not going out and trying to get the best player available and get into bidding wars. They’re trying to sign best players that fit into their plan. Especially pitching.
ibuititnoonecame
Correct and the plan does not work it never worked. It for sure will never work for a blue blood team like Boston. So we need a full blooded Boycott of all thing RedSox
yewed
Henry and Co don’t have the stomach for it anymore. I think it started with the Panda contract. Then hit the fan with Price and Sale and even Eovaldi to an extent. Not to mention all the money spent for all the last place finishes.
The plan can work if you do it correctly and have the right people in place. Sox don’t.
They’d have been better off tearing out down like Houston did for a few years and coming back strong.
Boxscore
This is a plan?
yewed
Of course it’s a plan. There’s always a plan. Doesn’t mean it’s a good plan. or could be a good plan but executed poorly. I’ve always said you need to have the right people in the right positions to make it work. Sox completely changed the way they do things and strategy. Which is fine if done correctly.
Sox hired their FO employees based on what they were doing at the time. Now that they changed are those same people still the right people for the job? Bloom changed certain dynamics of the organization for the better but was unable to do it all. Breslow was hired to continue what Bloom did and do better at what Bloom couldn’t do. Breslow was not hired to just go out and throw money around.
I’ve said before other teams have had success doing what Boston is trying to do. If it didn’t work then Sox wouldn’t be doing it. Some fail and some succeed. It all depends on the people in the organization. Right people in the right job.
Breslow may or may not be that guy but it’s way too early to make a fair analysis.
ibuititnoonecame
Sale, price and evoldi won a World Series ci tracts are fine if you win they won John is a loser looking to fleece the fans the Sox made 530 million last season public record.
ibuititnoonecame
Name a team that has won doing this I will wait
Knuckles
I have nothing, keep waiting!
yewed
It’s all about perspective. Sure they all won a WS. By your definition nobody should be mad about the Sale contract because he won a ring. Nobody should be mad at rightfully dumping Price and some of his contract and not getting much in return for Mookie because he won a ring. Like I said Eovaldi is border line. When he pitched he was good. He also averaged less than 100 innings during that time. I personally would rather get more from my starters but that’s me.
yewed
There’s no one stop option to success. I said earlier I don’t agree with all of the approach but other teams have had success in stepping back then going full out. Braves and Astros come to mind. Nationals and Cubs had moderate success. Orioles remain to be seen as do the Mets.. Completely different versions but still the same intent.
As I said different versions of the same plan. Some work and some don’t. Some organization are better equipped to succeed and some aren’t. If just spending money was the answer then the team with highest payroll would win every year.
JoeBrady
the Sox made 530 million
======================
I assume you mean that they had $530M in revenue, and not that they “made” $530M.
soxintwo
Actually, they complain that Red Sox management doesn’t want to spend any money, but then complains about the money that they spend. I’m still trying to figure out why so many commenters have not received a job offer to be the GM for any major league team at this point seeing they seem to know more.
yewed
I know. It doesn’t make sense to me either. They always compare them to being the Rays which makes no sense. Rays will never spend what Sox spend. The Sox will also not spend like Dodgers or Mets or Yankees. Most teams don’t. and have same or better success. Look at all the money spent last year and how many of those teams didn’t even make the playoffs. Look at all teams with low payroll that DID make the playoffs.
A properly run organization doesn’t need to spend that type of money to be competitive.
l9ydodger
@yewed; or lucky in a short series!
yewed
Luck is part of the game and always welcome. The only way luck works for you is at least putting yourself in the situation.
Fever Pitch Guy
Gary – You really want to go there? You really want to talk about what the market is right now?
Okay …. Michael Wacha, 5.7 WAR combined over the past 2 seasons, $32M guaranteed over 2 years.
Giolito, 2.1 WAR combined over the past 2 seasons, $38.5M guaranteed over 2 years.
Need I continue?
JoeBrady
I think the signing is more likely based on what Breslow expects, including Giolito’s good seasons, not just his bad ones.
FenwayFanatic
Agreed
Whyme
It’s what 2 years lol
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
Exactly. Watch snell and Montgomery get 7 years and bust after 4. This is a better move than most realize.
FenwayFanatic
I don’t think it’s that bad. I had him getting 17M per year and 19.25M isn’t egregious, but I think everyone was hoping for more. I think that if he is our number 2-3 pitcher, this deal is decent. This fanbase is also not going to be happy with any move at this point.
all in the suit that you wear
I think an overpay is needed when a player is signed for less years than he is looking for. I’m guessing Giolito was looking for more than 2 years.
Longtimecoming
Fenway, “I think that if he is our number 2-3 pitcher, this deal is decent.”
Ok on that but the problem is that he is being paid an AAV of a 2-3 pitcher and he hasn’t been even close to that level in production for a couple of years. If his production from the past couple of years is your 2-3 – RSox are in Big trouble.
So basically, you are saying that he needs to pitch over his recent years to make the contract “decent”?
What are the odds of that happening?
What does it take for the contract to be “good” – CY contention?
Just look at the Wacha contract or even Lugo to see what you could have had (recent production) for less money!
Big overpay and yes, it’s a short term but that doesn’t justify such an overlay for a below average trending pitcher.
JoeBrady
Just look at the Wacha contract
========================
That’s a fine comp.
Wacha had a 5.11 in the three years before he joined us. And a 3.27 since. Depending on the pitcher and the age, the most recent outcomes are not always predictive of the future.
Longtimecoming
Joe – the Wacha and Lugo deals were speculative for their own reasons: Wacha’s recent ERA that you mentioned and Lugo because of the focus tk starting.
Fair enough to that point but then you see that they signed just last year, for 7.5 mil AAV – not 19 AAV.
At say 10-11 AAV Gio would be a “take a flier” situation.
However under his terms he actually needs to be one of the best #3 guys in MLB just to be a “decent” contract.
yewed
3rd year player option or team depending on innings.
yanks2009
Everyone is!! ♂️
Ebouch25
It’s an overpay because some stupid team decided to pay a DH $700M.
yewed
Lol, doesn’t overpay and free agency usually go hand in hand.
marrtho
I’m sorry how much?….
phenomenalajs
I was hoping the Mets would sign him, but that seems a bit high after his last season.
Canosucks
As a long time Mets fan I am Happy they didn’t sign this bum!
Doug
Nobody wants to dive into the dumpster fire in Flushing.
Canosucks
@Doug Agreed dude, just cause the team I root for sucks doesn’t mean I can’t comment on another trade especially when the Mets were going to sign this bum and I am glad now they can’t!
Gwynning
Alot of cheese in that contract pairs well with Gio’s taters…
BaseballBrian
That’s a waste of money.
B dog 351
The new Ace . Omg
MacGromit
I was going to post disappointment that the O’s couldn’t even sign him but then saw the price tag… WHOA!!!!
I no longer have any clue what the SP market is worth if Gio is worth $20MM.
now glad the O’s didn’t match that.
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
Now we know exactly why this is taking a minute. Paying this guy $40 million over 2 years?
Imagine what Snell and Montgomery are going to receive. Hope you guys are happy because it’s a tough Market out there but at least we got somebody to plug in the rotation. The Lefty Japanese guy must cost an arm and a leg also.
iml12
Honestly, I rather take a shot on Giolito for 20 million than pay insane trade prices. Gio was pretty dang good from 2019-2021 and was having a decent bounce back last year until he got traded. There is upside here and no insane commitment. Nice signing
BaseballisLife
4.90 ERA the last 2 years. As soon as he was forced to stop using sticky substances his pitching went in the toilet.
So unless the Red Sox invented a sticky stuff that can’t be discovered by umpires, there is no shot at this guy being any good.
$18 million is a steep price for a #5 starter.
Snell and Montgomery will be well over $30 million AAV based on deals like this and the ones signed by Gipson and Lynn.
Bob_Laublaw
Yep. Snell doesn’t pitch nearly enough and there have been “ reports” Monty wants a similar deal to Snell. With all the teams looking for pitching and willing to spend, with better defense and better recent records-I’m just glad we didn’t get completely shut out. If they blow past the luxury tax and spend a bunch of money spread around amongst a slew of short term deals …I mean, it worked in 2013. Now just go get a bunch more guys.
Longtimecoming
Bob – check out how many SP in all of mlb pitched more innings than Snell in 2023.
Everyone knows he can have a stretch of 5 inning games due to pitch count but, in todays mlb, if your SP gives the BP a game with less than 2 runs after 5, that is fine.
Now, look at all of his 6+ outings – most of which were 1 run or less.
Yes, he gets 30 mil. However, you want his productivity at 30 or Gio’s at nearly 20?
I’ll take Snell all day even if it is only 180 innings and making every scheduled start with a 2 ERA! LOL.
GASoxFan
Long –
The problem is that in EIGHT Seasons Snell has averaged 5 IP only TWICE.
And, of those EIGHT seasons he has reached or exceed 130 IP on the year again only TWICE.
Now, you can *almost* cross one of those off as the covid season, but, only for the total IP on the year, not the IP per start.
Whoever signs the guy to a big money contract will be DRASTICALLY overpaying for what they get more often than not.
when it comes to Snell, there’s a bad smell, and that stink is that he’s a weak link.
Longtimecoming
2 CY Awards – I think whoever signs him will get one of the better pitchers in baseball.
Your belief that a SP in todays MLb has to go 6 or more is misplaced. BP’s are being designed to allow a starter to max effort in less innings.
I take 2 run ball for 5 every 5th day over what 90% of the rest of the SP’s give.
The old days are the old days for a reason.
Now, I’m not about to argue against the idea of giving any SP a 6-7 year. The odds of only getting 5 years due to TJ are just too high. But that is what the modern mlb is all about.
Your bias against Snell because he only pitches 5 is wrong because it isn’t even accurate. Compare his 5.2 and above starts to his 5.1 or less. Even most of those 5.1 or less is 2 run ball so he turns it over to BP with a winnable game.
Longtimecoming
After 5/1/23 – Snell went 5.0 or less 7 teams. In 5 of those seven he had given up 1 or 0 runs.
Really, you consider that a negative?
GASoxFan
Long –
Again, in EIGHT years snell got to 5 IP per start only TWICE.
Since you don’t understand that, let’s say it the other way…
In SIX OF EIGHT mlb seasons, Snell was unable to even hit 5 IP per start, averaging somewhere around 4.x, which isnt even a QS.
Longtimecoming
GA – do you really believe that anything matter from 2016 when talking about the FA contract signings that these guys are signing this year?
2023 is a lot more relevant.
Oh because I was curious – Gio went 5 or less 9 times after May 4 start and you dont need me to explain why but here it goes – because he was getting rocked hard and not giving his team a chance to win that day!
Pick any stat thst matters relative to helping your team win and Gio can’t touch Snell.
WAR? ERA? hR’s allowed; CY Awards and on and on
JoeBrady
2 CY Awards – I think whoever signs him will get one of the better pitchers in baseball.
======================
I think he’ll be great. I’d take him straight up against any FA for 2024. but I’d be real concerned about years 5, 6 & 7.
JoeBrady
2 CY Awards – I think whoever signs him will get one of the better pitchers in baseball.
=======================
It was 4x, if my abacus is not out of juice. And 5.2 for his career. And 5.5 over the past two.
And define a QS a little more broadly, including games where he allowed 1 or 2 runs in 5 innings. In 27 games last year, he put his team in position to win.
all in the suit that you wear
These days it seems just as important to avoid a bad contract that could limit you for years as it is to sign a good player that could help you for years.
thecrocusesareinbloom
I guess I’m glad they did something, but I sure wish it had been anything but this.
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
Unbelievable. Can’t please any of you guys. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Hilarious.
User 2079935927
You said that already. And it’s you Red Sox fans outside of the NY fans that criticize everyone else. the most on here.
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
I’m a punching bag among my own fans. You’ll see it here.. they can’t believe the Red Sox haven’t signed anybody two days ago and are ready to assassinate the owner and the gm, yet here the Red Sox sign a guy and pay a little more because of the market conditions and they’re not happy with that !!
Can’t win with some of these people. And yes I’ll tell everyone, one at a time. I’ve got a little extra time tonight.
thecrocusesareinbloom
Wanting them to sign someone is different from wanting them to sign anyone.
lasershow45
I’m with you on this. I like it much more than any Snell or Montgomery contract. If he bounces back, great, it’s a one year deal and he’s worth it. If not? He’s still better than our 4/5 options
ibuititnoonecame
Hell yes it is
soxintwo
Totally agree
soxintwo
So out of every possible move that they could’ve made this one you see as the one you never wanted to see happen? Smdh
thecrocusesareinbloom
Guys, I’m happy that you’re excited about this signing if you are, truly no hate. But I’ve pretty consistently discussed my wariness of Giolito in comments for the last two months. He has a home run problem, his spin rate has significantly dipped since the institution of stricter substance regulation, and he was lit up as soon as he left the nest in Chicago. His durability is a mark in his favor and I hope as much as anyone that he can find his form, but this much money for a guy with that many warts does not strike me as a good use of the Sox’s (apparently limited) financial resources. Has Kluber Pt. 2 written all over it.
In short, then, yes — Giolito is the “front-line” FA acquisition I have been least intrigued by all offseason. Totally okay if you disagree, but it’s unreasonable to suggest that my disappointment here is because I’m impossible to satisfy. I’d have been fine with them spending big on Montgomery, for instance, and equally disappointed if they’d spent big on Snell (whose inconsistent profile I find similarly worrying).
At any rate, if you’re excited about Giolito, I sincerely hope you’re right and I’m wrong! I’d love to see a good Sox team come together. 🙂
ibuititnoonecame
The signing stinks
CaseyAbell
The price of pitching is ridiculous this year. But when it comes to the offseason, if you wanna play, you gotta pay.
cwsOverhaul
No doubt. That is why the trade market prospect asks are so high if someone is inquiring about Cease for 2 yrs/Luzardo from Marlins or 1 year rentals of Burnes/Bieber.
Ma4170
Luzardo not a FA til 2027 apparently
cwsOverhaul
Yeah. 3 arb years. He’d cost the most in trade return.
MacGromit
there’s no way that Cease is worth whatever ridiculous ask the White Sox want.
I’d be willing to unload some talent for Luzardo. That’s what I asked Santa for but Santa is late with my present.
Burnes only if the Orioles could get him to agree to an extension but with the market as it is, I don’t see John Angelos paying market rate for Burnes unless he were to add pay toilets at Camden and also convince the State of MD to let him install private toll booths on I-395 outside the stadium.
Rishi
I understand the contract but in a sense this is insanity. Potential brings dollars I guess. And durability. Even if you are bad. CWS are horrible with pitchers (and ballplayers in general). I mean I really do get it. Just seems odd
Frank_TananaDaquri
Now go get Montgomery.
Jimbo_Jones
Wow…Snell is dancing at this moment
padrepapi
Maybe not as the Sox were considered a potential landing spot and now they probably aren’t.
Luis Severino and Nick Martinez got 13m/yr, Michael Wacha got 16m/yr… I definitely take Giolito at his price over those guys.
BaseballisLife
I would take Wacha and his 24 starts of 3.25 ERA for $16 million over Giolito and his 30 starts of 4.90 ERA for $19 million every single time.
Ma4170
Well, Wacha was dreadful from 2019-21, so can you be sure you’ll get the last two years or those years? Similar risk to Giolito, but with more recent success, which helps. Though Gio’s upside much higher, which entices teams.
BaseballisLife
Wacha’s best years are better than Giolito’s best years. Upside and recency to Wacha.
Ma4170
Wacha’s best years arent near Giolito’s best years. Look at all the measures for wacha 2022-23 vs giolito 2019-21. Yes, recency definitely for wacha, no doubt. Peak? One was a CY contender, the other a solid number 3.
dankyank
Don’t forget Jack Flaherty is downwardly spiraling career for $14m, or Lance Lynn at $10mm.
icantstandyous
Definitely too expense for Mets to counter. Ha…and to think they were screaming bloody World Series trophy when cohen bought the team. Pretty funny that he learned the wilpon game is more profitable.
FenwayFanatic
Finally. Something. Anything.
Jimbo_Jones
This helps at securing last place once again
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
Overpay central. I wouldn’t have given him 2 years. Maybe 1 year 12mil to see if he could get back to what he can be and what he has done in the past.
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
You can’t be the least bit serious. He probably has two year offers everywhere. You have to go two years to get this guy.
Are you understanding the starting pitching Market at all? My goodness you people.
Rishi
I don’t think it’s absurd to question why you have to pay almost $40m for a Kyle Gibson like season with strikeouts and upside. I mean it doesn’t matter if you strikeout people if you aren’t any good. So it’s for upside and “eating” innings. I must assume they have a plan to address his awfulness.
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
Rishi, I’m questioning his balking at 2 years. He wants to give this guy one year and I’m saying that’s absolutely impossible in today’s market.
You have to go two years on this guy and one year is not a possibility. Yes in the grand scheme of things this signing is too much money for the wrong guy but considering what’s going on right now December 2023 you almost have to do it if you need pitching.
You’re not going to get this guy for one year that’s a fact.
YankeesBleacherCreature
They’re just not paying attention to what Kyle Gibson and Lance Lynn signed for and Giolito is only 29.
ibuititnoonecame
Listen we see we pay attention we don’t care what they payed him. He is trash he isn’t a splash he second rate at best money be damned they made 530 million last season open the wallet and shut the %^^% up
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
ibuit, strong language there and quite a liberal use of your freedom you so proudly stand upon to make your points.
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
It could turn into 2 years with incentives. Sub 4 ERA, IP , Wins. Things like that.
bluepelotas
1yr-14milli MAX!
scottn59c
Obviously, that wouldn’t have gotten it done; look at the contract he was able to secure and understand that it’s a market.
Knuckles
Then pass on him.
TrillionaireTeamOperator
Wow. That is…. An overpay. And yet it’s also basically the standard now.
With a few exceptions, most players on shorter term deals are making 1.5 to 2 times what they typically have earned, based on traditional value per 1 WAR and market value trends, which is almost precisely what Giolito has received.
If you divide this by his WAR number, Giolito basically got market value, crazy as it is.
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
As crazy as it seems it appears you are right. The going rate. What are you going to do? Sit back and throw out young guys and lose or pick up vets like this, which is not a bad deal at only 2 years. Watch Jordan Montgomery get seven lol.
Mojo37
what a relief…
Best Screenname Ever
Low risk, high reward deal perfect for where the Sox are right now. Worst case he’s tradable at the deadline, best case he helps the Sox move up past Toronto and possibly NYY.
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
Big big big overpay!
Andrew Heaney should have really opted out. Also, this could be even worse than the terrible Jon Gray contract at long last! It makes me appreciate Texas overpaying earlier to avoid really overpaying later for pitchers. Mahle is also kind of a bargain compared to a fully healthy Giolito.
dankyank
The price tag is a little high but the gamble is reasonable. Despite being a hitter friendly park, Fenway is harder for hitting home runs than Guaranteed Rate Field and nominally below average. If Giolito can improve his HR rate with the White Sox by even 5 percent, he’s capable of a 3.50 ERA.
Not the ace the Red Sox truly wanted, but an infinitely better investment than Paxton.
Cody1981
Royals did better with Wacha
dankyank
I disagree. Wacha is 3 years older and hasn’t broken 150 innings since 2017. Giolito spent most of 2023 on terrible team, with divided attention due to divorce. With the exception of Home run rate, I would take his overall skill set by a mile.
Further, he’s moving to Fenway, a park that limits HRs by roughly 5% over Guaranteed Rate Field. The opt-out should keep him motivated so a 3.50 ERA is well within reach.
Giolito is an easy choice for at most, an extra $3.5 million.
Canosucks
@dankyank wow 5% of 41 is ≈ 2 gopher balls less per year.
Not much to be roughly happy about 🙂
dankyank
He’ll also be on a significantly better team. Plus, he’ll have the motivation of another platform year and better focus with the divorce behind him. Plenty of reasons to think he can register more than a 5% improvement over his numbers with the White Sox.
If Flaherty was a clearpay at $14m, Giolito gives you a far better floor and ceiling for barely $5m more.
Slow day at work
Imagine how many more doubles he’s giving up to righties because of the green monster
dankyank
Are we controlling for the competent position players that will be behind him this season? By all means, imagine away .
Polyglot
Guess the red sox enjoy being in last place.
LordD99
As a Yankee fan, I believe our 5th starter worked as a peanut vendor at the Stadium last year, so don’t assume last place for the Red Sox just yet!
YankeesBleacherCreature
That’s no way to talk about Severino just bc he’s gone!
LordD99
Ha! No. I’m projecting one of our peanut vendors from 2023 will be our fifth starter for 2024 unless Cashman gets to work! Still zero dollars spent on free agents this offseason.
Hmmm. Wondering now if German will be a peanut vendor next year.
Knuckles
Yeah, but I bet he has better upside than Giolito!
dankyank
It will be a three way race between them, the Yankees and Blue Jays for third place.
revolver
I see no chance in hell they escape the cellar .
dankyank
The Yankees rotation is thin and they also weakened the bench, bullpen and farm to acquire three outfielders. The Jays rotation is also incomplete and IKF is perhaps the worst signing of the entire off-season. Frankly, I think the Red Sox have a better shot at third than the other two.
Poolhalljunkies
Thats rich coming from a pirates fan
Polyglot
I am a Sox/Pirates fan thank you. What i meant was, if he is our ace, when younger ones are out there, expect bad results. But, perhaps Oneil can pick up the slack lazyboy couldnt bring. Teoscar is still out there also. But, sadly, i think the ace will end up being Luzardo at the cost of some very high prospects. The boston Cheap sox.
BuddyBoy
Two year deal with an opt out only protects the player.
butch779988
Paying for past performance…meh
revolver
Even his brief flirtation with good wasn’t really that good
Saint Nick
Holy f*** yall. Giolito got damn near $40M/2. Wtf
Travis’ Wood
With an opt out. That adds tons of value
BaseballisLife
And incentives based on innings pitched. He could put up another 5 ERA season and still make $20 million.
letsholdemandgohome
Sure seems like an overpay for a 4.43 career ERA. Hope he has a bounce back year for the Sox.
If Giolito gets almost 20 mil, what kind of contract will Snell & Montgomery receive? Yamamoto type $$$ I would assume.
LordD99
I’m confident Montgomery won’t be getting $300MM, but I do believe he’s going to be overpaid.
Sometimes it’s best to sit out certain markets. This is one of those markets.
BaseballisLife
8/288 is my guess.
Simm
Yeah this seems like a very nice deal for gio. He gets 19m, if he pitches well he opts out and gets more. If not he opts in and gets another chance to do the same thing again the next year if he pitches 140 innings.
Not a lot of upside unless he pitches great for the Sox then it’s 1 year worth of upside.
cwsOverhaul
He is bit of a high anxiety guy. Not sure Boston is the best fit……….and especially going from ALC offenses in his career to the AL East gauntlet.
DarkSide830
In agreement? Like, on public policy issues?
Moneyballer
You have a team and I am a pitcher. An agreement has been established! Huzzah!
acoss13
Pending physical perhaps.
mrmackey
Needs to cut down on those dongers, 41 is a TON.
windmill_noise_causes_cancer
Yuck
soxshortstop
Huge overpay as some have already mentioned. 500 level pitcher with a 4.4 ERA. Is the rate for a #3/4 on a pitching staff. Guess so. Only positives – Sox have money to spend and years are low.
Mickey Solis
I’m guessing he went to his hometown Dodgers first and they said no since they have first right for every single free agent so he settled for Boston?
Mojo37
about right
roiste
I like this contract in the context of the current market. Everything is more expensive now. Giolito has upside and will at the very least provide innings, which is something that rotation needs desperately.
That said, this absolutely cannot be the best pitcher Breslow adds. Montgomery, Snell, or a trade piece are an absolute necessity. Reclamation projects like this only work when there’s a floor of high-tier talent on the roster around them.
alexthegod
Massive overpay for a guy coming off back to back 4.90 era. Also gave up 41 bombs in 184 innings. Thought it would have to be more a prove it deal
sheerterror
Wow, you can give up 41 homeruns last year and still get 19 million for the next season..
Ghost Pepper
A change of Sox might be good for him.
sufferforsnakes
F’n stupid.
Pedro Martinez’s Mango Tree
Continue to pay for garbage pitchers. I’m out on this team
Moneyballer
You’ll say that until he’s got a no-hitter going with 10k’s heading into the 8th. He loses that game by the way.
Zheff F
Probably by giving up a home run!
Moneyballer
He loads the bases on walks to preserve the no-no then gets thrashed with a down the line bases clearing standup double. He then exists the game.
Pedro Martinez’s Mango Tree
No, I won’t. I don’t want the guy who gave up 41 home runs last year
Poolhalljunkies
Bye
JoeBrady
I’m out on this team
=========================
That alone might be worth the $40M.
User 2079935927
ESPN (You know the unbiased network when it comes to Boston and NY teams)
has announced a 2 hour special tonight “Red Sox Nation road to the 2024 WS”
Tonights guest panel include…….
Bob Costas
The Ghost of Jerry Remy
Jim Rice
Carlton Fisk
Dave Henderson
And the man of hour who will take Red Sox Nation to the Promise Land Lucas Giolito.
Programming note: The first 20 minutes they will play Dave Henerson’s HR in Game 5 of the 1986 ALCS in case you haven’t seen it the first 500 thousand times.
BosRedSox
Alright, it’s not flashy or what we hoped for but a moves been made and hopefully there’s more coming soon! Teoscar and another SP would make feeling right with this postseason.
ibuititnoonecame
Damn your East to please and a sucker this team stinks and will be hard pressed to win 80 games. Just a garbage signing
BosRedSox
Thanks for your input
HBan22
Would rather have Paxton back for one year, $10-12 million. Not a huge fan of this signing.
GM Wannabe 2
Giolito goes 8-15 w/4.88 era & gets $38.5M? I could do even worse than that. I wonder how much they would pay me? I would hold out for $100M.
YankeesBleacherCreature
Why do you aspire to be the second best Wannabe GM as opposed to the undisputed Best?
FenwayFanatic
I would not
roiste
Yeesh I wouldn’t. We need pitchers who actually go on the field
LordD99
Expensive on a likely one-year deal, but it is short term, and he is durable. Still, surprised he got $18MM.
LordD99
I guess I should amend this now that I see he got $38.5MM.
acoss13
Good job Boston, he’s going to be great for you guys. I wish the Cubs would’ve gotten him, he’s a great bounceback candidate.
revolver
You cannot be a Cubs fan and type that post.
acoss13
Saw him plenty with the White Sox. Giolito was on the Titanic, he’s going to bounceback.
Pedro Martinez’s Mango Tree
lmao
nando390
38 mil for a guy that was DFA’D last year. Boston got fleeced
gardyparty
Not exactly a traditional DFA
Slow day at work
He was also traded for a #1 prospect last year, Boston got fleeced either way
NoNeckWilliams
At least the “Owners need to spend more money” fans are happy about this.
ibuititnoonecame
Spend money on the legit players
NoNeckWilliams
Define “legit”.
ibuititnoonecame
players not looking for a possible “bounce back”
Players who last Allstar game was say last season.
Players who career arc is pointed up….. give me break sing a real player for god sake walk in the room ans pay one of the top 3 best free agents show you have some balls……
solaris602
I’m not too sure about that. It actually may have been a wiser investment for ownership and FO to take that money and blow it all this weekend on booze and hookers. Wouldn’t take much of an argument to make that case.
HalosHeavenJJ
My fear when the Angels got him was that he feasted on a weak division.
He imploded here. The East isn’t going to be easy by any stretch.
Rking
That’s a good short term signing, great if he works out and not a big deal if he doesn’t. Still need a TOR starter but with Bello, Pivetta, Crawford and Sale also, at least they will be competitive.
ibuititnoonecame
The hell you say “they will be competitive” lmao
revolver
I just do not see it . That rotation would struggle to compete in the ALC.
Pedro Martinez’s Mango Tree
You have a very strange concept of being competitive
Canosucks
As a Mets fan I am beginning to love the Saux!
First they took that bum of our hands Lowly Rodriguez last year and now they jumped on a live grenade and took that bum Giolito for big money!
I was in distress seing the Mets talk about him but Merry Christmas from Boston and Happy New Year no 41 HR bum!!
They say he is an innings eater well Boston eat this!! 🙂
FenwayFanatic
Your Welcome :\
acoss13
What a charming fellow…
Mercenary.Freddie.Freeman
I guess this is why AA exercised Charlie Morton’s 20 million option for 2024. It’s a good thing I haven’t been to a game since Chipper Jones played. I don’t think I can stomache the cost of tickets and food. It was bad enough then.
Southside Hitman
$600,000 per start. Enjoy Red Sox nation.
Deleted Userr
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo they broke him and Reynaldo Lopez up!
Paleobros
A sad day indeed. Maybe they’ll reunite in the WS.
Pedro Martinez’s Mango Tree
lmao The World Series?? This is a last place team
cash3w
I didn’t follow him that close between ChiSox and Halos, but I know his numbers weren’t great. I’m guessing the BoSox thinks he’ll turn it around. Posting this feels weird, but given the FA salaries, this doesn’t seem that bad.
acoss13
No he’s not bad, a bounceback is definitely within the realm of possibility.
revolver
He was worse than his numbers
ibuititnoonecame
Not excited still BOYCOTT all things REDSOX this is a cheap mover no real deal money no real commitment to player that maybe juts maybe catches fire but more likely is average to below average. Bottom line we are not lining up and damn duck boats smh cheap cheap ownership fleecing us fans
Crash_n_burn
So sad he finally won’t be teammates with Renaldo Lopez anymore.
But there is always a midseason trade option down the line.
Slow day at work
Plot twist, they get traded for each other
Misty Moobs
Red Sox are screwed now. He is one of the meatiest pitchers in the league
Americanentropy
In the real world you typically take a pay cut and are told you are lucky to keep your job when your performance declines. I don’t know… I guess I’m just old school.
Poolhalljunkies
Lot of money for a bum
B dog 351
I like him over Paxton even with the over pay .
Poolhalljunkies
Do we know we are out on paxton? Lol..hoping for the 19-21 version of giolito..lets see bailey earn his pay and fix this guy
Pedro Martinez’s Mango Tree
Paxton is trash too
LFGMets (Metsin7) #ConsistentlyBannedBaseballExpert
Can somebody remind David Stearns that the offseason is more than 3/4ths of the way through and we’ve signed nobody. The Detriot Tigers have made more impactful moves than the Mets so far. Instead of Sleepy Stearns munching on potato chips on the couch while counting his millions, he should be trying to make some dam deals. I got the Mets at 68 wins right now with a last place finish in the division. Stearns, Cohen, Alex, and Mendoza need to go go go!
Slow day at work
@LFGMets maybe someone should remind you that this season the Mets aren’t making any significant moves because they’re focusing on 2025 and beyond.
LFGMets (Metsin7) #ConsistentlyBannedBaseballExpert
@Slow day at work You do realize that you can sign guys this offseason that can contribute in 2025 right? Clueless
JoeBrady
Y’all were screaming last year about all the guys you signed. Now comes the hangover.
cguy
Frankly I’ll take Nick Martinez and his 2/$26MM contract before Giolito and his deal with the Red Sox, particularly when pitching out of GABP. Still quite a few large and midmarket teams bidding over just a few TOR/MOR SP. I wonder if FA SP pricing this year will begin pushing talented pitching prospects ahead of comperable position prospects in future drafts?
HBan22
Or Kenta Maeda at 2 years, $24 million. That was the guy I wanted the Sox to snag. I guarantee you he will be better than Giolito next season, for way less money.
dankyank
GABP is literally the most home run friendly ballpark in the majors over the last three seasons. Why is that suddenly a checkmark in Martinez’s favor when he’s moving from pitcher friendly Petco and will be relied on for more innings?
dankyank
Martinez, not Giolito, is the one pitching out of GABP. Giolito will be in Fenway, which is nominally below league average for home runs.
cguy
checkmark in the giolito comparison.
This one belongs to the Reds
Giolito not a fit for GABP for sure. There are plenty of better choices out there.
yewed
Different pitchers and different environment. Sox already have their own Nick version that pitches more innings and has similar numbers.and better AL numbers and better numbers on most categories.. . Martinez wouldn’t have made sense for Boston.
Market changes every year and I think most teams have a formula that they follow for drafting. Don’t think one year of FA pitchers will be enough to change an entire organizations philosophy on drafting.
Trollfree
So we now have something big to evaluate Breslow’s skills at acquiring talent.
Cost/Benefit analysis suggests the COST is greater than the VALUE. The question is why look for a SP3 to SP5 when we need a SP1 and SP2?
I think if we slot him in he’s behind the less than $1MM a year Bello and before the less than $1MM a year Houck or Crawford!! Bello, Houck and Crawford are all pitchers that have a higher VALUE than COST. We have Sale who has a higher COST than VALUE. So the rotation at this point is:
1 – Sale with a greater cost than value
2 – Bello with a greater value than cost
3 – Giolito with a greater cost than value
4 – Houck with a greater value than cost
5 – Crawford with a greater value than cost
Overall, it’s the fifth best starting rotation in the AL East and probably somewhere between 11th and 15th best in the AL and probably the 21st to 30th best in baseball.
Evaluation of Breslow – D. Didn’t fail but came very close!!!
Trollfree
Key aspects of Giolito’s history:
1 – He gives up roughly a hit per inning
2 – He gives up roughly three and half walks per nine innings
3 – His career ERA is 4.43 and his career WHIP is 1.254
4 – He averages roughly 125 Innings per season
5 – His ERA+ was well over 100 in 4 of his first 6 seasons
6 – His ERA+ has been 91 and 81 the last two seasons
Maybe Breslow thinks his pitching coaches can fix his current issues and return him to a decent pitcher!!
JoeBrady
4 – He averages roughly 125 Innings per season
==========================
The 125 includes his rookie year with the Nats and his real rookie years with the WS, totaling 11 starts in the two seasons combined. And it also includes the strike year.
Since he became a fulltime player, he is #8 among all pitchers in IPs, and tied for #5 in starts. He virtually never misses a game.
Trollfree
Joe – That’s fair. He has been around 30-32 starts in his recent years. You want to know who else came to the Red Sox with an excellent track record of starting? David Price actually had more starts in the years prior to coming to the Red Sox. He also had 35 in his first year with Boston. Then he got to play for Cora and he averaged 26 starts before he was pushed out the door. Sale was averaging roughly 30 starts a year from 2012 to 2016 in Chicago. In Boston, he got 32 starts for Farrell and then things went down hill with Cora. He got 27, 25, 9, 2 and 20 under Cora..
Giolito like others before him will come to Boston looking like a work horse. Lets see what happens with Cora as his manager. That’s why Cora needs to go ASAP!!
JoeBrady
He got 27, 25, 9, 2 and 20 under Cora..
========================
Price had 30 and 22 starts for Cora, and only 11 and -0- for LA. He was a workhorse in his prime, but the innings caught up with him.
Trollfree
Joe-
It’s perfectly fine if you want to believe two Cy Young caliber starters both coincidentally ended their effectiveness while pitching for Cora.
To me changing the success of one pitcher is something that might happen by outside causes but to have it happen twice in two years seems to two elite pitchers seems like an issue not a coincidence. Then, take into account all the one year wonders that weren’t wonders when Bloom got them for Boston and maybe you should see an issue not a simple “it must be a coincidence!” Cora is a bad manager for pitchers.
JoeBrady
1 – He gives up roughly a hit per inning
=========================
No, it is only .874, which is significantly lower than 1, and quite good. He ranks #48 since 2016 out of 215 that meet the FG qualifications.
But your last sentence is something I was thinking about. Is it possible that Breslow, as a pitcher, sees something in his mix that he doesn’t like?
jmi1950
Joe — I hope your right that the Sox think they see a way to make him better. Last year when they signed Kluber I said Wacha would have been better. This year I have been saying I preferred Wacha for the 2d SP sign because he had no problem at Fenway in 2022. I hope I’m wrong.
Trollfree
Joe – I have no problem with the Giolito that pitched before and including in 2021. That pitcher had four good seasons during his mid 20s. Then 2022 saw a dramatic drop-off in all his stats. Last year is hard to read since he started well with Chicago and got traded to LAA where he went from a 118 ERA+ to a 68. Then he gets traded to CLE and it drops to 60. His hits per 9 IP in CLE was 8.8, in LAA it was 9.1, in CWS it was 7.9. So which is the most accurate as a forecast? The most recent? What about 2022? It was 9.5.
You went back to his good years to come up with better numbers than his recent years. Is that really reflective of his skills now?
I agree that the Giolito of 2018 to 2021 would have been a great add but this is 2024 and his 2022 until now numbers are nothing to get excited about. It’s just like O’Neill. You have to hope he suddenly rekindles his skills from 3 years ago or longer. Does that sound familar? It should. Bloom did that with guys like Paxton and Kluber.
So pardon me if I’m a bit skeptical of something we have watched for the last several years. I’d really like to add guys that have done WELL lately.
JoeBrady
I agree that the Giolito of 2018 to 2021 would have been a great add but this is 2024 and his 2022 until now numbers are nothing to get excited about.
====================
Of course, but that’s why we got him for $38M/2. The earlier version of Giolito would’ve been looking at Snell or Monty money.
The variance is too high for me to even hazard a guess, but if he is only a league-average ERA+, and gives us his usual 175 IPs, this will work out okay.
GASoxFan
TF – We can talk about ‘it’s a business’ and ‘Suck it up and do your job’ but, is it just possible that 2022 was an off year, and, that in 2023 he just flat didn’t handle the disruptions of being traded, shipped across country away from an established living situation, and everything else that was going on in life, not to mention working with an unfamiliar catching situation?
I just wonder, because there is that odd data point of having righted the ship for the majority of 2023 sitting there.
Trollfree
Joe – You think Giolito at $19MM a year is a deal? A guy has multiple bad years he doesn’t deserve over $10MM a year.
How much do you think Snell and Monty will get? Snell will want over $30MM but Monty shouldn’t. He’s a $25MM a year guy at best.
Giolito’s sole strength right now is innings pitched. His other numbers haven’t been good. A $20MM a year pitcher should have a sub 4.00 ERA and sub 1.25 WHIP with over 10 wins.
Trollfree
GA = OK a player traded needs time to adjust. That is fair.
Did Giolito just get traded? How long will it take him to adjust? If it’s like the last time, this deal sucks. Isn’t this similar to Kluber and Paxton? A guy was good a few years ago and now we hope he’ll return to form?
If he does, it’s a good deal and if he doesn’t it’s not. So what is the probability? And why take a risky guy for that much money when you need two guys better than him? It doesn’t make sense to me.
Zheff F
When I heard the Mets were interested in Giolito I wasn’t too thrilled; too many dingers and a bad spin rate without the help of the sticky stuff.
I’m hoping the Mets go for Montgomery for 5 or 6 years. Yeah, they’ll have to overpay, but he’ll definitely shore up the rotation and should still be a valuable pitcher 3 or 4 years from now.
Jimmy joe
I think this is the best move the Sox could have made under the current circumstances. It may be an overpay but it’s a one year deal with a mutual option. I’d rather see this than a massive overpay for a couple of mediocre/poor pitchers on the market. Better to wait till next year when Burnes and Fried are available. The asking price for trading for pitching is probably ridiculous. I believe Breslow knows pitching wins championships. The Sox are stockpiling pitching with the hope of developing from within. It may take a couple of years but I like where they are headed. They are finally putting an emphasis on pitching. Given the current price of pitching teams that don’t or can’t develop their own will be very far behind. Unless you’re the Dodgers of course.
Jimmy joe
Correction, two year deal
Fever Pitch Guy
Jimmy – So instead of paying $10M for one year of Kluber, they are paying $38.5M for two years of Giolito.
But that’s not a massive overpay you say? Really?
And we don’t even know how he’ll be pitching in an intense environment like Boston. At least we know Snell and Monty have excelled pitching in the AL East.
JoeBrady
But that’s not a massive overpay you say? Really?
==========================
MLB-R projected him to sign for $44M/2. Based on that, this is an underpayment.
Trollfree
Joe – My uncle Sal says he was supposed to make 20 for 2 years!!! I trust my Uncle Sal more thatn MLB-R projections. They are run by the Players Union!!!
JoeBrady
I trust my Uncle Sal more thatn MLB-R projections.
======================
Most of the pitchers have signed for more than what they predicted.
Trollfree
Joe – So the early results are over stated? What about the middle results? Do you predict over stated to the same degree or less? How about the last guys? Will they get what was predicted or not?
The point it is it’s a guess not a fact and I don’t have an Uncle Sal. I was making the point that everyone has an opinion and you can choose to believe anyone you want. That doesn’t make it right or even more right. It just makes it an opinion.
swanhenge
Like this move a lot. Only two years and way more valuable than whoever shells out long money for Snell or Montg.
Gio has a good enough track record that I think he’ll bounce back. Divorces have spun out more than a few MLBers over the years. Here’s hoping he’s motivated to bounce back.
Good move Breslow
Old York
SP is overrated in today’s baseball.
Goose
The good news it is a one year deal if it turns out to be the disaster we all expect. If he somehow has a good year they get him cheap for a 2nd year.
IF they pull a trade for a Burnes or someone they can in the ace role Giolito could be a decent 3 behind an REAL ace and Bello.
Pedro Martinez’s Mango Tree
It’s a 2 year deal if it’s the disaster we expect
uvmfiji
Oh man. What’s the Sox record for homers allowed? They will need to reinforce the monster.
sdono25
Add Montgomery and trade for Fernando Tatis
NOW
Knuckles
HAHA HA!, not happening!
slider32
We know that drafting and trading for players is a better way to build a team than signing free agents who are usually over payed. But teams like the Rangers and Braves have signed free agents to put them over the top. The big question is it worth it to over pay for a free agent when you are not a contender?
Thec’s
WTF this will be as bad as Kluber only twice as much! John Henry is full of s”t!
Trollfree
Thec – Breslow brings the deals to the board and the board says yes or no. I don’t think they have said no much since Devers got 50% more than his value in the last Bloom deal.
Always blame the GM not the owner. The proposal comes from the GM and the owner simply nods his head or shakes it sideways. I don’t think Henry and the board have shaken their head sideways since Mookie. I think we’ve had a horrendous GM and a new one who is behaving similar to Bloom in that he is BANKING on players recapturing their skills from over 3 years ago.
BaseballisLife
Strange baseball world we live in where pitchers with a 5 ERA are getting $18 million per year.
How much will actually good pitchers like Snell and Montgomery get?
Aaron Sapoznik
I predicted Lucas Giolito and his pal Jack Flannery would settle for pillow type contracts this offseason. There’s no logical reason why the White Sox couldn’t have signed both, reuniting them with high school mentor and current ChiSox pitching coach Ethan Katz while attempting to contend in MLB’s crapiest division.
cwsOverhaul
Aaron: JR’s main mission is to minimize the payroll in ’24 after having a top third to top half one last couple seasons. If he could offload half to 2/3 of Moncada’s salary for no return-he probably would but no dice there. Maybe the club will be up for sale within next 2 years.
Aaron Sapoznik
So JR’s business philosophy is to strip his team down to the bones before he sells in order to maximize his sale price to the next buyer? All the additions this offseason are his way of putting a fresh coat of paint on his crap product?
As for Chris Getz, how do these acquisitions set him up for his future as White Sox GM, now or post-JR? Tanking has become more difficult with MLB’s new draft lotto. And because of another anti-tank clause in the CBA, the White Sox will be ineligible to pick in the Top 10 in the 2025 draft no matter how bad their record is in 2024.
cwsOverhaul
Yes-JR is simply slashing payroll. The “additions” are bargain basement. Even Fedde comes at 40% of what struggling Giolito just got in the inflated starter market.
Getz has to do what the boss says…..and up to him how to make it happen since he is indebted to JR…..who could have/should have interviewed smart budding execs from strong organizations (Atl/Hou/Tampa/Balt/Milw).
Wealthy people will bid on an MLB franchise. He is probably comfortable with a scale back not affecting the value too much.
Red Sox Restoration Project
Finally something. Not a bad deal. I think he will rebound. Not sure why I thought he was still on the Whote Sox and not a free agent but we will take this. Kind of a high amount but not for a long time, so it works out. Let’s just hope he can get back on track.
Everyone complaining is ridiculous. You complain when we don’t spend money. Then we take a gamble and spend money and you still complain. If this fails, it’s only 2 years.
teddyballgame
It’s going to be the same response from the majority of the posters on here. Great short term contract. Guy will have value at the trade deadline if we’re out of contention again. Difference here is Breslow actually making the trades that Bloom wouldn’t.
Red Sox Restoration Project
Well for one, this isn’t a trade yet.
For two, I havent seen a huge difference in terms of this year’s deals to last year’s. Breslow has a similar philosophy in the way he deals.
Biggest difference is Breslow has a plan and was vocal about it
Bruin1012
Giolito on max two year contract for 38.5 million sounds about right. It’s a decent pickup by Breslow. The guy was served with divorce papers in July and who knows how much that affected him. I have gone through a divorce and it’s rough I’m sure it affected my production and I think it’s reasonable to expect it hurt Gio as well. He was quite effective in the first two months of the season he pitched to a 3.5 era with 9.5 ks per 9 and a little over 2.5 walks had a 1.18 whip. He was awful after he was served in July. I think he’s a decent bounce back candidate. He had a down year in 2022 but advanced stats says he pitched better.
The guy now is pitching for his career he is the kind of guy you take a chance on wouldn’t surprise me at all if he rebounds well.
Otto371
I dont understand the hate here. Its a 2 year contract. Is it higher than he should get? Probably. But wait until Snell and Montgomery sign. This will not look so steep. Shorter term equals higher AAV. The hypocrisy is real. Clamoring for the Sox to do something, and when they do it gets bashed. Unbelievable.
YanksPhan42
Neither Snell or Monty gave up 41 dongs last year
Otto371
Which is why they are going to blow past this contract in term and AAV. This is way less risky and in today’s market is absolutely worth the gamble.
Fever Pitch Guy
Otto – Call me crazy, but I’m pretty sure it’s the 4.89 ERA over the past two seasons that has real fans up in arms.
Is the goal to put together the best team possible, or put together the least expensive team possible?
Your answer will let us know whether you are a real Sox fan or not.
Otto371
“Real fans” can understand the logic of this signing. People who want to crap on ownership will hate it regardless of who or what it is. They could have signed Ohtani and you would still get 98.5 bashing the signing. My point is you just cant win sometimes. Damned if you do, damned if you dont. This is a 2 year deal, big market clubs can take chances like this and be just fine even if he does end up being awful.
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
the comment section of this page is hilarious, everyone is freaking out about giving 18.5 a year to guy who has been elite in the not too distant past. Look at the market lol, Gibson and Flaherty got just a few million less and those guys don’t have Giolitos upside.
solaris602
Hands down the WORST signing of the winter so far. Nothing even compares. The media played ball and pretended last year never happened, and apparently BOS bought it hook, line, and sinker. This deal raises the bar WAY up for the price of mediocrity.
soxintwo
Please go away!!
dankyank
Are we excluding Lance Lynn for $10m, Jack Flaherty for $14m or IKF for 2yrs/$15m? All of those signings are far worse in my book.
kingbum
Man fans on this page are so short-sighted at times. The man had a rough second half lol that doesn’t erase 5 years of striking people out and being an innings eater. Who would of wanted to pitch for the Angels anyway knowing Ohtani is walking and Trout is never healthy? 19 million a year for a veteran starter seems to be the going rate, especially when a pitcher who never pitched in MLB gets over $300 million at 28M AAV.
drasco036
This is a solid pick up by the Red Sox, he’s one of the best strike out pitchers in the league and pitched in front of some of the worst defense you can imagine. I expect the Sox staff will attempt to convince him to attack more aggressively in the zone and let the defense work behind him.
Cub fans now have a reason to complain about Hoyer sitting on his hands since Giolito should have been a target for the Northside. Top of the rotation upside, short term contract, tremendous defense up the middle, really affordable AAV for luxury tax purposes.
Trollfree
Kingbum – You have to start actually reading the stat lines.
This guy was great in 2021 and earlier and has sucked the last two years. You might argue he didn’t suck as badly with the CWS to start the 2023 year but by the end he sucked badly.
Your comparison also makes no sense. There is NOTHING similar between Yamamoto and Giolito except they are pitchers whose last name ends in o. Yamamoto is a japanese superstar and Giolito is a has been. He’s three years removed from being good and Yamamoto was outstanding in 2023. $28MM per year for outstanding vs $19MM per year for great 3 years ago. I’ll pay the extra $9MM for the currently great pitcher.
GASoxFan
TF – Problem is, if you read the remarks from ‘Moto’s conference, he wanted the LAD for their winning culture and postseason consistency. Was his true earnings ceiling $28m? Or was that as high as LAD went and he wanted to play winning drama-free baseball? Maybe he left Cohen money on the table, and, the Yanks certainly offered better terms with a chance to rake in front loaded money and opt out a year earlier allowing him to REALLY cash in.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, the player has to WANT to go to you, nevermind at the same price.
Fever Pitch Guy
GASox – Right on, Post of the Year!
It is so refreshing to read posts that aren’t just numbers being regurgitated. You and I often think of aspects that others simply cannot grasp.
Trollfree
GA – I agree that there is NOTHING appealing about going to Boston as a SP. Bad manager, bad field, bad fielders and high expectations with lots of stiff competition and owners that don’t behave logically.
Boston is one of the worst places in the MLB to go thanks to Bloom.
kingbum
Maybe Giolito was uninspired by being on scrub squads? Boston isn’t any better at this point but at least Giolito knows the fans here won’t tolerate it for long. Yamamoto might be great in MLB, Giolito has a proven track record. I can guarantee Yamamoto won’t be sub 2 for ERA and I seriously doubt he’s going to be sub 3. Giolito won’t give up as many homers as he did last year, I’d bet ya on it.
Fever Pitch Guy
King – Senga had a sub-3 ERA in his first MLB season last year.
If anything Yama will be his best early on, until opponents get a proper scouting report on him. It was the same with other Japanese pitchers.
Nomo’s best year, his rookie season with a 2.54 ERA
Tanaka’s best year, his rookie season with a 2.77 ERA
Dice’s best year, his second season with a 2.90 ERA
I will bet anything Yama has a sub-3 ERA in either his first or second year, probably both.
Trollfree
kingburn – We watched Bloom do the same thing. Kluber used to be great and Paxton uses to be great and even Perez had a great May the year before Bloom got him. All were signed in hopes of them returning to form.
Same is true about Giolito. Time will tell if Breslow is better at his job than Bloom was. It’s a low bar but signing iffy pitchers was a habit of Blooms. Let’s hope this is an exception not a habit for Breslow!!
YanksPhan42
Awesome signing!!!! If you’re a Yankees fan. : ))
Can’t wait till Soto hits 3 dongs in a game off of this human batting practice machine.
benhen77
Breslow reeling in the big fish!
drdback
Toward the end of next season, I bet he has to go on IR for a couple of weeks. Not due to an arm but a neck injury, from twisting his head around watching all the gopher balls he gives up sail out of Fenway Park.
No Soup For Yu!
“Okay, what if we take the starting pitcher with the second worst groundball rate and worst homerun rate since 2018, and give him $19 million with a player option to pitch in our very flyball friendly ballpark?”
mookiesboy
I’m neutral on this it you may just be you locked yourself into expensive mediocrity
soxintwo
Two years is not locked in 7 to 10 years is locked in
RobM
So, if I understand this correctly, if he’s vaguely good in 2024, the Red Sox will pay him $19 million, including incentives, and then watch him walk away, but if he pitches poorly, they’ll owe him $38.5 million over two years. I feel like the latter option is more likely.
Fever Pitch Guy
Rob – The odds of you being right are definitely in your favor.
soxfan1
Sox will also get a draft pick from the qualifying offer. The bet and hope is that he is successful and opts out.
Trollfree
soxfan1 – What’s the going VALUE on a QO draft pick? $19MM?
JoeBrady
If he opts out, then it means he earned his $19M already.
RobM
Under. Fenway consistently inflates offense more than any other AL park, but not via the HR. Overall BA and doubles will increase, but HRs will drop. Not pitcher friendly at all.
Cooperdooper7
Good move…. 2 years is the key…. yes an overpay.. but so was Yamamoto. Montgomery and Snell will be massive over pays as well with at least 5 to 7 years each. Taking a chance on a 29 year old is different than a close to washed up 36 year old.
Trollfree
Cooper – For me this smells like a Bloom deal. Fragrances include:
1 – A need for the player to perform like he did in the past when he was younger and possibly had more talent
2 – No slot for the pitcher. Currently we need a #1 and #2. I believe Bello, Houck and Crawford are all better than him and they cost less than $3MM as a group!!
3 – HOPING for a player to return to a level he maintained 3 or more years ago is both risky and probably foolish and don’t people usually go to the track to bet AFTER they pay their bills? Breslow needs to get a #1 SP and a #2 SP and a 3B and a 2B and a lefty reliever. Then putting $19MM on the 27 horse at the local race track is permitted!!
JoeBrady
HOPING for a player to return to a level he maintained 3 or more years ago is both risky and probably foolish
—————————
He only has to return to his May-July 2023 form.
Trollfree
Joe – Wow what a rationalization!!! That’s the whole point. You had to select a short window of success to hope for not a career or a last couple of years, you had to find an anomaly and say he needs to return to that form.
Next time just point out ONE GAME that he has to return to. It’s not different than what you did. It is a complete rationalization for taking a guy who hasn’t been good in several year. At least you are consistent.
I can remember when Devers used to go a month without an error and you’d be the first guy along with Bruin1012 to say he Devers is improving. Then the next month he would make 7 errors but that didn’t mean he was regressing. It’s a rationalization of an unlikely event. Giolito is NOT likely to be great, it’s a long shot. The baseline will be can he throw 150 innings better than any pitcher not named Bello, Houck and Crawford. Because if he can’t it was a complete waste of money. Remember, Bello, Houck and Crawford cost less than 1/6th of Giolito’s salary and likely will provide way more value. Breslow was supposed to be about maximizing value over cost. Giolito is not likely to be a good example of that. He got rid of Verdugo because his cost was to be higher than his value. He got rid of Sale with a pay down so Grissom’s $17MM cost will be far greater than his value.
Breslow has done two deals in a row that make no financial sense. Bloom did that all the time.
HBan22
It’s starting to feel that way, unfortunately.
seth3120
I wish the Cardinals had signed him to this deal instead of signing to guys that need to bounce back in there mid to late 30s
Pedro Martinez’s Mango Tree
You want him? Take him. Please!
neurogame
Nearly $20M guaranteed annually for his dogsh* stats last season. The Red Sox must really believe in their coaching staff and analytics to turn his performance around.
towinagain
Actually, like this move for Boston. Not a long term deal. Builds value. Both part ways if it doesn’t work but if it does, you have a fromtline starter.
Trollfree
towinagain – So wasting money is ok if the time frame is short enough.
Interesting philosophy.
Parting ways after it didn’t work. Wow it sounds like Boston is dating him not paying him 50% more than his value to pitch 64 starts in the next two years.
bigjonliljon
Dumb
BloodySox
Yama who?!
Butchh
Corey kluber all ovwr
olmtiant
Well with this signing Brais can’t be far behind!!! I figure 3 -60 should get it done
martras
It’s an overpay for Giolito for sure, but that’s what Free Agency usually is. Teams have to overpay for talent they failed to develop in house.
I don’t think it’s a big overpay, though. No qualifying offer so no loss of draft picks, and Giolito wasn’t going to get less than $12MM/yr so it’s not a big deal. The Red Sox can happily eat $6MM, and there’s a good chance Giolito rebounds to provide good enough value to opt out of his contract at the end of the season.
The Red Sox locked up an arm who has a high probability of being rotation worthy with some upside before the market completely dried up.
Trollfree
martras – So we got the brownish bananas not the yellow but they would have been worse by tomorrow. And we paid a premium price for the brown bananas. Sweet. Sounds like a heck of a deal.
JoeBrady
Brown bananas are much tastier. The more yellow the banana, the more starch and less sugar it has.
GASoxFan
The 2024 redsox are just baking bread anyways, so, maybe the brown banana was a better choice to start with.
martras
Nah, you got a box of peaches from some discount wholesaler. You know the ones which are 50% of the time woody/mealy, but sometimes they’re great, but either way, you saved a little money over prime quality stuff.
Trollfree
martas – A fine analogy. You forgot to mention that the shopping list didn’t have the peaches you bought, it had the peaches you needed and we won’t have those for 2024 and that will cost the team many, many wins.
Poolhalljunkies
Lets not forget we beat out other teams for him including the dodgers..assuming we are “full throttle” why does anyone rooting for boston care that its an overpay.breslow actually got a player he wanted..thats one up on bloom right there in my book..and if bailey can fix him..its a huge win
Trollfree
Pool – That glass is half full!!
Old York
A lot of money for a guy who’s Forecasted Run Average is around 4.04 in 2023 and has been increasing 13% since 2020. kwERA sits at 3.42, so it’s a bit of a saving grace for him.
If he was being signed for #4 or 5 guy money, it could be a decent pick up. Oh well, good luck!
dasit
health is a skill that raises the floor of any player. he’s an inning eater who will come in handy when sale gets hurt making a sandwich. imho this is a good signing considering the market
soxfan4381
This will be a lost season. They are putting too much hope on prospects that may not even pan out. I didn’t think Bloom was good at judging talent so I don’t have faith in the prospects. By most accounts we are ranked as a middle of the road farm system after this guy spent his entire time focused on it. Casas and Bello were not even Bloom guys. I don’t think Mayer is going to be a franchise player like he tried to bill him as. Henry needs to sell the team to someone who will focus solely on the Sox and not worrying about owning a franchise in every sport.
Poolhalljunkies
Soxfan4381. Regarding mayor..how can you possibly say that about someone who literally turned 21 years old less than 2 weeks ago?
.damn give the kid a chance.
JoeBrady
I don’t think Mayer is going to be a franchise player like he tried to bill him as.
=======================
Contrary to popular opinion, Henry is not in charge of the rankings for Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus, FG, etc. FG ranks him as a 55 FV, BA had him as #10, and BP had him as #13.
Trollfree
Joe – Those guys had Jeter Downs similarly ranked. How’d that work out. Stop trying to predict the future through idiot services.
Mayer’s numbers suck compared to comparable picks in 2019. That’s how you determine if this guy is living up to the fourth pick in the draft not by paid services who take money under the table to boost the rankings of certain players. At least use a stat based service like ROTOWIRE to rank prospects. They actually care about how well a player is performing not his name or draft position..
Right now ROTOWIRE has Mayer as the 5th best prospect based on performance in the Red Sox organization.
1 – Anthony #11 overall 19 years old
2 – Rafaela #40 overall 23 years old
3 – Teel #64 overall 21 years old
4 – Abreu #76 overall 24 years old
5 – Mayer #78 overall 21 years old
6 – Bonaci #99 overall 21 years old
In 2019 Bobby Witt Jr. went #2 in the draft as a high school SS and he has played 308 games in the majors. That would mean Mayer would need to come up in 2024 and play nearly two seasons to be as advanced as Witt is with his baseball career. He is what one would expect out of a top pick. CJ Abrams in 2019 went 6th in the draft as a HS SS and has played 241 games in the majors by the end of 2023. Again, that’s the expectation of a top pick. Mayer has fallen far short of those expectations. Pretenders need to be dealt before other teams realize it so we need to treat him like Moncada and move him before the cat is out of the bag.
teddyballgame
Mayer played a significant amount of time with an injury before being shut down. Prior to that he was playing fantastic.
Everyone who rates prospects has a high grade on him. Our prospect group has all the signs of being successful in building a foundation for our major league team. This year a full season in Portland is going to reveal who is for real.
JoeBrady
Those guys had Jeter Downs similarly ranked.
==========================
1-Nowhere did I say that the rankings were guaranteed.
2-Finding a player who under-performs is not an indictment of the system.
I picked the top-10 from BA for 2018 at random. They were:
Acuna
Ohtani
Vlad
Eloy
Robles
Gleyber
Senzel
Bichette
Tatis
Whitley.
They hit huge on five of the picks, good on 2, and struck out three.
SteveC
Trollfree: Mayer was drafted in 2021, not 2019
Trollfree
teddy – Go look at what Bobby Witt and CJ Abrams did and compare it to Mayer. It’s all about expectations. I expect Mayer to perform like other HS SS taken in the first six picks. If you don’t, that’s ok but both 2019 early round SS have played over 200 games in the majors and Mayer has struggled at AA in one year less time.
Trollfree
Joe – The top 10 has been far more accurate for the services over time than all the others in the top 100.
Jeter Downs was 44th not in the top 10.
Here is the 1996 top 10. The most outstanding of the outstanding usually are easier to find than the 11 to 100.
1 – Andruw Jones
2 – Paul Wilson
3 – Reuben Rivera
4 – Darin Erstad
5 – Alan Benes
6 – Derek Jeter
7 – Karim Garcia
8 – Livan Hernandez
9 – Vlad Guerrero
10 – Ben Davis
Note = Ben Davis was a mistake and all the others had good to great MLB careers. Then go to 11 to 20 and see how dramatically the success rate fall off. That’s because these are guesses. No better or worse than yours or mine.
If it was a science then the best players would be drafted in the order of selection but it’s not. Swihart was ranked above Mookie is just one of thousands of missed rankings.
If you narrow the prospect list to ONLY the top 10 it’s hard to argue that the system sucks. If you count all 100, it sucks. It’s less right than wrong. That’s my point. It’s truly meaningless unless you make the top 10 and then as you pointed out they might be right 70% of the time. That’s a C= in school!!
Trollfree
SteveC – Yes. The 2020 draft due to COVID didn’t have any SS in the top 6. So I took 2019 to show how much has been accomplished by similar HS SS drafted two years earlier. If you think Mayer will have 200 or 300 at bats in the MLB in two years that’s great but he failed at AA in 2023.
If we look at Jordan Lawler who was drafted two spots later than Mayer in the 2021 draft he has played 14 MLB games already which is quite a bit better than failing at AA, injuries or not.
Lawler played 109 games at AA and 16 at AAA before being promoted late in 2023. It’s fair to say he has out=performed Mayer. Brady House a HS SS was picked 11th in 2021. He finished the 2023 season in AA like Mayer. Here is a comparison of their numbers;
House at AA – 36 games .324/.358/.476/.833
Mayer at AA – 43 games .189/.254/.355/.609
My point all along has been that Mayer has not lived up to his draft spot. I have now showed how bad he is compared to comparable picks in 2019 and worse picks in 2021.
It’s not an insult to Mayer it’s the facts about his performance and how he hasn’t lived up to expectations as the fourth pick in the 2021 draft.
teddyballgame
Man you’ve got some hate in there.
CJ Abrams has barely cracked an OPS over .700. Low .600 in his first attempt.
Witt barely broke .700 OPS in his first year at 22. Great success at 23 this past year.
Mayer is 21 and started his time in AA with an injury. Your comparisons and analysis reek of bias.
Could he turn into a bust, sure it happens all the time. The list of high draft flameouts is significantly longer than the success stories but let’s give him a chance.
Goose
People sitting in the Monster Seats better pay attention when he is pitching or we could see a ‘death by head shot’.
User 2079935927
Red Sox Nation “SPIN” is in overdrive..lol
bcjd
Not exactly the headliner we’ve been waiting for, but this is a decent signing without overcommitting. If he doesn’t perform, it won’t cripple the budget for years. If he does perform, the contract will be a good value.
MTDewdWV
One reason why Charlie Morton isn’t an overpay.
30 Parks
Too much money, but somebody has to pitch. Good luck to LG.
JoeBrady
This is reasonable. It is tough to tell which Giolito we will get.
From 2019-2021, he was one of the best in BB.
In 2022-23, he was pretty bad.
But if the meds are okay, then at age 29.5, he is plenty young enough to revert back to form.
PutPeteinthehall
Saw him pitch a few times last year. Was fine until he was traded. Either dead arm or a troubled spot between the ears later in the season. If he’s healthy he will be a good add.
smkelly1970
hell of an expensive flier when the White Sox signed Chris Flexen for less than $2 million for 1 year. that’s a flier I would’ve taken.
THEY LIVE!!!
Could have gotten better results signing Greinke and Rich Hill.
THEY LIVE!!!
Few pitchers can make a bad team’s ERA go up…
but Gioloto is the #1 that can do that!!!
Knuckles
Oh thank goodness! We finally have our full throttle move! I hate being a small market team with a big market everything else. Sell the team!
semut
Yikes, $38.5mil/2yrs for a guy with a lifetime 4.50 era, and who’s coming off a season where he was closer to 5.00??
Rsox
If nothing else he’s been durable throughout his career so there’s that.
I have said a few times here that they would probably end up with Giolito and here we are. Now if only they would sign Teoscar Hernandez…
Trollfree
Rsox – I don’t get it. Giolito is like Paxton. You can hope he reverts to his form from 3 or more years ago but why Hernandez?
Boston has a stout outfielder core that should be allowed to develop further in 2024.
Anthony in the minors is incredible and may be ready in 2024
Rafaela had a great minor league career then came up and hit lead-off while Cora bounced him between the outfield and SS. Abreu looked excellent in September after a very solid minor league campaign. In addition we have Bleis who has been inconsistent but has a decent upside if they can fix the issues.
Boston is overloaded with OUTFIELD talent and Hernandez is not a great defender so do we really want Cora to put Yoshida in LF so Hernandez can DH? You know Cora is not a bright man so this is a real possibility.
The last thing we need is a DH as always, the next to last thing we need is an OUTFIELDER. We also don’t need more right handed relievers.
What we do need is – SP1, SP2, 3B, 2B, Lefty reliever/closer and to trade Yoshida so we only have ONE DH.
GaryWarriorsRedSoxx
Sign Hernandez and trade excess outfielders for controllable starting pitching.
Trollfree
Gary = What if Rafaela and Anthony are the next Yaz and Tony C or Betts and Benny? Duran could be the next great speedster. The two fastest guys are needed to give Boston a new dimesion they haven’t had for a while and Anthony so far has looked like a tier better prospect than the other high tier prospects.
I think the weak prospects are in the infield. So lets trade them for controllable pitchers. Great idea just wrong group of prospects. Need to trade pretenders like Moncada not the real deals like Mookie.
Rsox
Sox need power and Hernandez has 14 Home Runs in Fenway (his most as a visitor in any stadium).
Trollfree
Rsox – I think the Red Sox need all-stars not a bunch of slightly above league average guys. I liked what I saw from a 22 year old Rafaela. Anthony in the minors looks special and Duran has the type of speed we need in our line-up. The power needs to come from Casas at 1B, Devers at DH and a new 3B. Story needs to hit again and if that happens he’s solid at HRs and Grissom is not a power guy. So you have Rafaela who is a power/speed guy, Duran is a speed guy, Anthony who is a power guy, Casas who will grow his power, Devers at DH as a power guy, the new 3B as a power guy and Story as a small power/speed guy IF HE HITS. Grissom is neither. Wong and whoever is neither.
Hernandez is like straddling the fence. He’s inconsistent but looks to have an above league average career in front of him but doesn’t seem likely to be an all-star. So his performance will likely not be as high as his cost. Anthony, Duran and Rafaela are 2030,2028,2030 free agents costing under $1MM in 2024 with Abreu the 4th outfielder being similar. We also have O’Neill who COULD have a bounce back year otherwise he was a waste of money unless he’s included in a deal for controllable pitchers or a SP1/2 type pitcher.
Boston has NO legitimate hitting all-stars because Devers is not playing a position that helps us. They need three if not four all-stars like in 2018. Where can they get them and how can they afford them. They can get 1 at 3B which moves Devers to DH making him a 2nd all-star. Casas and Duran could take a step forward or Rafaela or Anthony could have a break out year or least likely Story has an all-star year.
Bottom line 2 all-stars would be a great step forward. Add to top flight SPs and you have four all-stars and Kenley. That team has a shot at the playoffs and the low prices on the four outfielders, 2B, 1B and Catcher make the offense reasonably priced. The SPs will be 3 under $1MM a year and 3 very expensive ones starting with Giolito at $19.25.
Breslow can stay under the CAP but he has to trade the $18MM going to Yoshida to get a top flight SP. He also has to move Devers to raise the 29th defense to top 10. Yes, one move could do that. Devers is that bad!!!
It’s not that I dislike Hernandez it’s more like I don’t see how he fits into a plan that has to have lots of low cost controllable guys playing with many very expensive players thanks to Bloom.
dramsey10
This guy gets a deal while Trevor Bauer is still available…
Pedro Martinez’s Mango Tree
Get it through your head, nobody is signing Trevor Bauer!
GarryHancock'sGhost
According to b-ref, the Rangers signed Nate the Great for three years that average out to only $333K more than the Sox paid him from ’19 thru ’22. The Phillies are only paying Schwarber $20M a year. Besides, didn’t Giolito try to kill a guy in a bar fight last season?.
baseballguru
Gio was expected to ink a 2yr 44m contract per MLBTR as the 17th ranked FA available this year. By that estimate he was a short term deal bargain at 18 in yr 1 with a 1 mill buyout, and 19 for the 2nd year if he’s mediocre to bad. What I don’t get is how the SP expectations have gone from 7 to 9ip to 5ip and the going rate stays at roughly 20mill aav? Shouldn’t the RPs or long men be where the uptick in dollars are? I think Breslow and Boston looks at only true Aces for Ace money. Which is smart. Next year is Burns, Beiber, Freid, and a decent Ace market. I would wait for that over signing either Snell or Monty long term. It is likely that Sale, Gio, and Pivetta will all be gone before ST 2025 so they’ll be $ there for proper long term contracts for a clean true Ace or 2. Still rebuilding in Beantown, just a year or two away from go time.
Trollfree
baseballguru – Still rebuilding is inaccurate. The real situation is that the tear down by Bloom is now complete since he was fired. Now the rebuilding must begin. There is no still in the sentence. Breslow is starting the rebuild after the Bloom tear down.
Waiting a year to be competitive. Boy that sounds like something Bloom would say. DD, on the other hand, would ask how soon do you want it and then make it happen. Too bad Breslow is NOT similar in his mind set.
Firing Cora and moving Devers to DH takes no money and should have been done by now if the team is to improve. Firing Cora would add more value to the team than adding Giolito. Moving Devers to DH would add more wins than signing Giolito.
We need a GM who gets it. So far, Breslow does NOT!!
User 4223176798
Farhan, are you still working the phones? Or are you looking for another job?
NWI ChiBears
I don’t understand all the hate. He’s a very serviceable starter. Also, 2 years is nothing at that price. He’s very inconsistent, could look dominant one day and awful another. But he eats innings and is great in the clubhouse. He’s a perfect 3 to 5 SP, more like 4/5 in the rotation at this point. The way the money is nowadays that’s a decent deal. Just my opinion as a southsider. Best of luck Gio! We’ll be rooting for you! Of course unless you’re facing us.
Ps. I admire his work ethic that much more, given he’s from a well to do family.
YankeesBleacherCreature
It’s bc RS fans were expecting a bigger signing like Snell or Montgomery and have been sitting out on FA until this.
NWI ChiBears
Yeah I understand that. They’re a big boy franchise so they should expect that. I think they got a good one in Breslow, so give it time. I wanted my White Sox to hire him. He’s extremely intelligent, but let’s see how that translates.
Trollfree
NWI – I’m a Chicago guy who grew up on the Cubs and Red Sox and even the White Sox since they were my mother’s team. The FOUR years with Bloom was so miserable that for many it’s hard to get the taste out of their mouth after many, many hours of gargling. Breslow is a new guy doing similar things so the knee jerk reaction is to compare them.
Until Breslow make a clear “GOOD MOVE” he’s going to be compared to our recent nightmare. His Giolito move is ho hum because the guy has been bad lately. His O’Neill move is ho hum because he’s been bad lately. His trade of Sale would have been great had he not made the cardinal sin of doing a buy down. He basically eliminated Boston from contention by wasting $17MM to have Sale recover for Atlanta. Even if he doesn’t. Paying $17MM for a guy to pitch for another team is pure stupidity. There are so many smarter options for any GM.
Got to ask? Marvin Harrison Jr? Or will Fields be gone?
❤️ MuteButton
If my favorite team signed a guy with a 4.43 career ERA, and trending in the wrong direction to a 2 year $38 million contract, I’d be done with them.
Joe Sweetnich
As reported by Boras employee Passan. That should tell you all you need to know about those 2. Both should be fined for collusion.
I.M. Insane
Oh, great. Lance Lynn’s body double. It’ll be like watching Kluber again.
bsakfl
$38.5 million is a flier these days?
its_happening
Congrats to Giolito’s agent.
whyhayzee
Giolito’s performance has varied over the past few seasons. His durability has not. The 6’6″ hurler has taken the ball almost every fifth day for the last six years. He hasn’t had an injured list stint longer than two weeks at any point in his MLB career. He hasn’t had any arm-related absences as a big leaguer. Giolito has started 29 or more games in each of the past five full schedules and took the full slate of 12 rotation turns during the shortened season. Only Aaron Nola, Gerrit Cole, José Berríos and Patrick Corbin have started more games over that stretch. He’s eighth in the majors in innings pitched since 2018.
This is basically the whole reason they signed him. Not to be at the top of the rotation, but to be middle at best. But more than anything else, they need reliable innings out of multiple pitchers. He joins Pivetta as an innings eater. Shades of Rick Porcello.
The top of the rotation is going to be Bello and Sale, but they probably will attempt to get another arm, because Sale is an unknown. If they sign Paxton, that’s another unknown. I think they go with a six man rotation, that’s 27 starts.
I like Whitlock and Houck to have clearly defined roles next year. Whether it’s rotation or bullpen, those guys need consistency. Last year was not good.
There is still work to do but this is a step forward. Be patient and see what’s next. Or complain endlessly about everything Red Sox. Your choice.
Trollfree
whyhayzee – Everything you say is logical about Giolito. He’s a workhorse and a workhorse is goodness BUT we needed a SP1 work horse and a SP2 work horse not a SP4 work horse. We have Bello, Houck and Crawford PLUS Pivetta. Lots of good young arms and Giolito is one more but he costs more than 19 times as much which makes him a mistake. Big money must go to the #1 and #2 because we have good cheap #3 to #5 pitchers. Huge mistake by Breslow even if he pitches like a number 3 not a number 4. The odds of him being a #1 or #2 SP are so low that the gamble wasn’t worth it prior to getting the #1 and #2. If they had both then this deal would not be a problem. Instead, it took away from the available funds for a #1 and #2.
GASoxFan
TF – the reason I don’t see Giolito as mush of a mistake as you is the short term.
You need that #2 or #1 who WANTS Boston’s money, and who you could spend that on.
Snell is not that guy. Monty? Maybe, depending on cost, but, there’s still plenty of money for him.
Yamamoto never even considered Boston, he wouldn’t visit before they even got to teams making formal offers.
Henry has plenty of money, but you need alternatives to spend on before you can really start making the arguments of whether it was a misallocation
Yankeesforever
The Yankee hitters may have to add a bib to their uniform attire, to handle all the excesses drooling that will occur when he takes the mound especially at Fenway.
Canosucks
@Yankeesforever As a long time Mets fan I must say for the first time I am going to enjoy seeing the Bronx Bombers tee off on Gio or GioCash. 🙂
ramon garciaparra
Lucas received Cy Young votes three years in a row between 2019 and 2012; was quite solid this past year for White Sox before trade to Angels. Sox get a 29 year old strikeout pitcher with a history of being durable and are only obligated for a couple years. This play has considerable upside potential for the short run.
❤️ MuteButton
I understand your Red Sox fan and you want to be optimistic, but come on
Trollfree
Ramon – So did Kluber!!
Jay Wheeler
Ownership, thank you for the championships and memories, but unfortunately it’s time to sell this team. Please, do it for the fans.
This team that was once so filled with talent and personality has become one of the leagues most boring and mediocre. We can see your focus and desire for greatness has weaned so please, it’s time.
Steve E.
The term “positive regression” is an oxymoron.
whyhayzee
Regression in the statistical realm can be positive or negative. Pitchers tend to improve for awhile, then plateau, then decline. Somewhat parabolic. If he can improve, that will be positive regression. There’s also regression to the mean. Putrid results over partial seasons tend to be followed by improved results, and vice versa. None of this is bound to happen for sure, just a tendency.
Trollfree
whyhayzee – Your positive regression is incorrectly stated.
Regression to the mean is the process of bringing an anomaly in the progression back to the normal average. A negative regression would happen if the value continued to drop below the starting point and the player couldn’t continue on the terrible decent they were on so their regression is backward BUT it’s still far below the starting point. So this would NOT be a case of negative regression as being positive. It’s simply less negative!!! Until it bounces back to the other side of the starting point, we really don’t want the results!!!
Cohn Joppolella
I hear he’s been working on his knuckleball.
KeithK
I understand Gio is a great candidate for a bounce back year, but I’m shocked by the money. I’d think they’d have a low salary for 2024 as a make good year with escalators OR option years that could automatically vest based on performance.
When pitching for the Guards, we thought we’d see some of the old Gio come back, but he couldn’t sustain it. Hopefully he is really putting in the work this off-season.
Motown is My Town
I’d rather have Jack Flarehty at $14M for one year and Kenya Meada at $26M for two years than Giolito under this insane contract. For once I can say the Tigers did all right for themselves in this crazy priced pitching market. There is no way Giolito is worth almost $20M a year..this signing reeks of desperation by the BoSox. Wow!
gravybaby
If this is the route they’re going and staying away from snell and Montgomery then I think Michael Lorenzen could be a good pick up
deGrom/Langford Texas Ranger
He was smart to pay off his alimony debts before hitting free agency by filing for a divorce. Otherwise, half this money would get wasted…
mang
Might wanna update the article. Chris Sale isn’t much of an in-house option unless the Braves allow him to make some starts for Boston.
YankeesBleacherCreature
Can we make 30-days contracts a thing in the future?
Tom the ray fan
He’s gonna get rocked in the AL east, bestow luck Lucas this isn’t the central anymore.
Deleted Userr
“It’s been a long day without you my friend. And I’ll tell you all about it when I see you again.” – Reynaldo Lopez
Prophet of the SL
What is your War prediction for Giolitio? A number of you think Flaherty and Maeda will out-perform Giolito., I’m afraid I have to disagree.
Getting out of Chicago, working with a new pitching coach, Bailey, and his overall health and desire to put a miserable 2023, on and off the field, behind him will translate well. In terms of pitching in the AL Beast, the new schedule makes that a little less painful.
cmessick2080
I think he had a combination of bad luck and bad defense behind him and I think that not being counted on to anchor a rotation will help him recover.
Trollfree
cmessick2080 – Boston is top notch in bad defense so he should feel at home if not buried by the clown at 3B. The score keepers only could 1 out of 4 or 5 of his errors so when he puts up his annual 15 to 25, you do the math. Giolito won’t throw the ball inside and low if he knows Devers is at 3B. The ball will bounce off Devers glove for a hit at least 20 to 40 times a season. That’s a lot to make up for when you are pitching. He’s going to hate pitching in Boston as long as Devers plays 3B.
drdback
Giolito will likely miss some time this season due to periodic neck injuries. This will be from twisting his head around, watching all the dingers he gives up exiting Fenway.
RynoScoobs
Pitching market is way too inflated right now. This is a 10mm over pay and he’s not the only one.