With as many as 12-15 teams teams potentially showing interesting in Cliff Lee, ESPN's Buster Olney says that the Mariners still want "big bat potential" in any deal for the lefty ace (Twitter link). He lists two candidates: Justin Smoak of the Rangers, and Yonder Alonso of the Reds. Alonso is blocked in Cincinnati by Joey Votto.
As the Rangers showed with the Bengie Molina deal, they are unable (or unwilling) to take on payroll, instead choosing to give up a higher caliber prospect. Other big bat prospects that could be moved in a trade: Jesus Montero of the Yankees, Fernando Martinez of the Mets, and Domonic Brown of the Phillies. Whether or not those teams are willing to surrender those players in a trade for a 2008 AL Cy Young award winner is another story altogether.
God I hope Smoak is in play!
Is Martinez still a “big bat” compared to the other prospects mentioned?
He’s been overrated his entire career throughout the minors. His numbers have never been very good.
funny how met prospects are always the one put into question…
montero has stunk up the joint this year. but martinez is the one put into question.
Cause Mets prospects have a habit of being declared insanely awesome prospects then flaming out to be fringe MLB players at best..
Carlos Gomez, Lastings Milledge …now Fernando Martinez are the most recent examples. All 3 of those guys were supposed to be superstars. Yeah.. call me a skeptic when it comes to Mets prospects declared for greatness. I even would be willing to bet Ike Davis is only going to be an average offensive first baseman with above average defense.
I have no bearing for the Mets, so this is not going to be a ‘biased-homer post’…
But how the hell can you call Martinez a bust? THE KID IS 21! Are the Mets handling him horribly, yea, but is he a bust? HELL NO. He should be in A ball, instead he is in AAA and has 100 MLB ABs to his name(good or not). Before you call a kid a bust, let him reach 22…
Nowhere in CrustyJuggler’s post did I see the word “bust”.
yes, but he hinted at Fmart would flame out to a fringe player… aka a bust
Perhaps you are right about some overhype in the mets farm; however, you are failing to recognize the positives behind this and that it may be exactly the organizations intentions. For example, Carlos Gomez always had very good tools and the body and frame to develop; but by no means, was he ever considered a potential superstar; for the most part he sat behind milledge and martinez in prospect lists and was constantly designated as an extremely raw talent..they were able to parlay him into the best pitcher available at the time.
I agree with you.
How about people giving the Mets some credit for being able to recognize the players who are overrated, and getting something for them while keeping guys like Reyes, Wright, Pelfrey and Davis.
Please dont let David Wright…Jose Reyes…Mike Pelfrey….Scott Kazmir…Heath Bell…Jonathan Niese… get in the way of looking things…and Carlos Gomez was NEVER rated insanely high…he hit .232 in limited play in 07…then was traded to the twins…the centerpiece of that deal was deollis guerra…who was 18 then and is still 20/21 years old now…( or younger than matt garza was when he was drafted by the twins )…
every team has overhyped prospects…
and to say ike davis is going to be an average 1st baseman with above average defense…well…lets just say that out of the 9 homeruns he has hit this year…about 4 of them have gone for 450 feet..his ceiling will be limited only by his work ethic and ability to adjust…I see him being more of a mark texiera than a lyle overbay but we shall see
“I see him being more of a mark texiera than a lyle overbay but we shall see”
I’ll take that bet. Don’t let the fact that Davis was never projected as a power hitter get in the way. 22 career minor league HRs in almost 700 official ABs aside. A bet of my own.. I think he finishes the year with less than 20hrs and hits under .250 the rest of the way. Pitchers are figuring him out.
BTW, I’ve seen Mike Carp hit a 460ft HR in spring training. Doesn’t make him a power hitting prospect.
hmmm…Davis never projected as a power hitter ?
according to milb.com in 2008 ( Davis has some untapped raw power that could
be developed as a pro.)
and last year…he hit 20 HR’s in 488 AB’s …( also hit .298 with a .381
OBP ) …lets not mention the fact that his A ball year, he had an oblique
injury and didn’t hit a HR …( this year he was hitting AAA pitching, which
is where the other 2 HR came from )
…and ur really comparing spring training HR to ML HR’s ?…
Do you even watch Davis play or do u just have a gripe with the Mets/NY
teams ?
“…and ur really comparing spring training HR to ML HR’s ?…”No. I was contrasting the whole “he can hit the ball 450ft..” argument. Just because you can hit a long HR doesn’t mean you can do it anytime you want. Hence the Mike Carp reference. I don’t have a gripe with the Mets I just don’t think Ike Davis is as good as everyone is trying to make him out to be. Sure he has 9 HRs. That’s in 250 ABs though and he’s been slipping the more pitchers see him.
None of us are Scouts but according to them Ike davis will be a power hitter with great defense. Get your fact straight and He only palyed one full season in the minors. Batting clean up in your rookie season isn’t easy, especially in New york.
its too early to say he is slipping…the same way its too early to etch his name in Cooperstown..I, like most Met fans, are enjoying the ride and taking it as it comes along…with regards to his importance on the team, he is untouchable not because he is that good, but the stability he has brought to the infield and lineup has made all the difference with Wright/Reyes and the pitching staff…its not a coincidence that the pitchers have all pitched to contact and the mets record since Davis came up is 41-26…
I’ll agree with that. Just irks me a bit when Ike Davis is mentioned like he is on equal ground with a player like Smoak or slated as the next Mark Teixeira. Who knows what can happen in a few years but he isn’t quite of that ilk. Not yet.
Not sure if my comment will show up later, but I basically made the point that the most he’s ever accomplished is hit for a high average. Not much else. Montero is having an off-year his first time through AAA, but has been above and beyond amazing offensively in his minor league career.
Does no one else find it ridiculous that the Phillies want back in the Cliff Lee game? Ruben Amaro, Jr. made a huge deal about dealing him because they needed to replenish their farm team and how ownership wasn’t too keen on pushing pay-roll over a certain amount. So all of that goes out the window? The Mariners will want more than they gave up for him… Makes me think the Phillies GM didn’t do his due-diligence when shopping Lee around this past off-season.
I find it hilarious!
You find it “hilarious” that the Phillies want to trade for a top-five pitcher? Dealing Lee and prospects for Halladay wasn’t about replenishing their farm system at all. It was about locking up an ace through 2012, which they did with Halladay. It became clear fairly quickly that Lee wasn’t going to sign an extension, so they dealt for a guy that would.
Anyway, whatever team acquires Lee will only owe him about $4 million this year.
The Phillies didn’t trade Lee for Halladay. It was a completely separate deal, they could have kept both and chose not to.
Yeah, not sure what you’re on about here. The deals were separate and the Lee move was very clearly an attempt to restock young talent. (Swing and miss.)
Cliff Lee said in his first interview with the Mariners media that he was shocked because he thought they were working out an extension with Philly. I find it “hilarious” they they screwed up and traded a top five pitcher to Seattle in the first place and now want him back and will have to give up way more than they got for him.
I wonder what you guys think about this… I think it’s possible that part of Amaro’s motive in trading Lee was to set a precedent for players who are considering free agency. The message is this: we have a winning team here with a lot of great talent locked up for awhile. Stay with the Phillies and you have a chance to win for the next 3-5 years. But if you try and hold out on us, you’re done.
Amaro seems to be trying to force players into making a decision before really exploring free agency. There were rumors that the Phillies had offered Burrell a new contract for more than he eventually signed with the Rays (I don’t know if that’s true), and when he didn’t sign quickly they went out and got Ibanez. Then this year they went out and signed Polanco before Pedro Feliz had signed, and then they went and traded Lee because they knew he wanted to explore free agency and they seemed to know they could get Halladay locked up for 4 years. Then Amaro was really aggressive with (read: threw a ton of money at) Howard because he didn’t want to have to deal with him becoming a free agent.
Though they’re a large market team, the Phillies have a limited budget, so I can see how this could be an effective strategy–make players decide whether or not they really want to stay on the Phillies before getting involved in a bidding war. I think we may see more of these tactics with Jayson Werth, who has sent mixed messages about whether or not he wants to stay in Philly (he said playing for the Phillies was like working with the best company in the world but also said that he’s been playing all his career for his free agent year). It could be that Werth’s time to decide is fast approaching, and he’ll be either resigned or traded by July 31st.
I can see why su
No way it would happen. Simply because it would take Dominic Brown to get Lee back and Ruben Amaro might as well tattoo “Jack Zduriencik’s bitch” on is forehead if he gave into those demands.But it might be even worse if the Mets get Lee and beat the Phillies with him.
Both very good points. As a Mets fan I don’t know if I would be that upset with getting Brown out of the division for 2 months of having to deal with Lee. Brown is looking like a monster and should probably already be up.
If the Mets do land Lee and go onto beat the Phillies, Amaro will have to ride around town in the Popemobile. I have a suspicion that Lee’s agent may not have been as upfront with the phillies as Lee thought
I don’t think Martinez is in the same class as the other players mentioned. However, he might be the only one available. I can’t see the Rangers trading Smoak and I think Phillies fans would be very angry to see the Phillies trade maybe the best prospect in the game for Lee when they had him and traded him away for no reason.
The Yankees are another story all together. I think they’re going to be heavily involved in Lee discussions. The combination of their plethora of catching prospects and desire to slow down Hughes innings total make them a huge dark horse.
I really cant see the Rangers giving up Smoak.. I know I wouldnt if I were them
Permission to smack the Rangers GM if he trades away Smoak?
Permission granted.
You guys can smack him, but we’ll kiss him. And then watch him cry as Smoak kicks his butt for the next six years. God that’s a beautiful dream.
Nah I’m not a Rangers fan so I wouldn’t go that far. I’m just aware of how great he can be, ‘specially in Arlington.
Yeah, I think it’s a bit crazy to talk about prospects like Smoak, Brown and Montero here. We’re talking about 2 months of Cliff Lee (plus playoffs). Not to take anything at all a way from Lee, but he’s a rental.
When the Indians traded CC Sabathia, they got one good, but not superb prospect, and a few other lesser players. I think that’s what the Mariners fans should be expecting here. A player like Wilson Ramos or Yonder Alonso would be the center of the deal, and if they can get one more player close to that level I’d call it a big win.
If I hear it explained that Cliff Lee is a rental ONE MORE TIME… I think I’ll flip.
Note to everyone: YES. We all know Cliff Lee is a rental. You don’t have to explain why he may not be worth this package or that package because he’ll only be around for 3 months. You just don’t. We get it.
When people are expecting a team to give up their future superstars for him, they clearly don’t get it.
That’s retarded. Of course they get it. They simply value more than you do a great chance WIN NOW more than a potential chance to win later. They are not the only ones. Plenty of GMs & owners share the same philosophy.
They will pay the price considering his experience in the post season. Sure you can get a Roy Oswalt or a Dan Haren but there no Cliff Lee.
I think that the M’s could expect more given that nearly half of the league is expected to be involved in these trade discussions. It’s hard to rule out anything. If I’m the M’s, I’d offer salary relief with Lee and throw Branyan in the deal to make sure Smoak would come back in the package with a couple of other decent prospects. I’m okay with trading within the division because it’s highly unlikely that Lee would re-sign there anyway.
I think that the M’s could expect more given that nearly half of the league is expected to be involved in these trade discussions. It’s hard to rule out anything. If I’m the M’s, I’d offer salary relief with Lee and throw Branyan in the deal to make sure Smoak would come back in the package with a couple of other decent prospects. I’m okay with trading within the division because it’s highly unlikely that Lee would re-sign there anyway.
That sentiment may have been a little more reasonable last month, but it is becoming very clear that A LOT of teams are going to be in on him. There is a lot of parity in every division among the top teams except in the AL West, and if they Angels pick up some offense, that may change too. Nobody is safe right now, not even the Yankees. Someone of the 10-12 teams looking at him is going to get desperate in the end and pull the trigger.
Those GMs don’t sound to smart to me then. Why would you trade an Ace for moderate prospects? Someone should slap them all.
As a Reds fan, IMO, they have the best chance if Jocketty pulls the trigger. Alonso is on a tear after a slow start in AAA right now. He’s ready for the show. AA C Devin Mesoraco is a rising star and available after the draft of Miami C Yasmani Grandal. And we have the Minor League pitching depth to sweetin a deal. And Aaron Harang may also be available with Volquez almost ready to rejoin the rotation.
If the Rangers give up Smoak for a rental super star pitcher would be crazy! Yankees probably the C talent but I don’t think they have the right depth. Phillies probably wouldn’t give up Brown. The Phillies would be crazy to spend the money on Werth to resign and get rid of a prospect of Brown’s caliber and him being under the Phillies control contract wise. Brown has way more upside than Werth.
No way the Rangers trade Smoak. Just won’t happen. I wish they would but I am more of a realist than that. I would be gitty over a Perez OR Holland/C.Davis/?? package though. The Ms could even take Harden back to balance salary. Getting Harden would also placate fans a bit in a spin of not totally giving up the season. Much like the Russell Branyan move.
Perez or Holland may even be a bit optimistic.
the rangers would not deal smoak. hopefully they wouldn’t deal holland, perez, scheppers, but one of them may have to go. I can’t speak with any real knowledge of the other clubs, but i think brown and montero would be crazy hauls as well, and dumb moves for their current team considering how close all the kids we’re talking about are to the majors.
I agree that Smoak won’t get traded, but Zduriencik should push for it. Davis would be fine as well, but with a better package of other prospects.
As an A’s fan, I have to ask, why in the hell would you want Harden?
No way the Rangers move Smoak for a rental. They’re morons if they do.
Agreed. But that would mean one of Perez or Holland would need to be in the deal. Are they morons if they deal one of those two?
Nope. Most people ignore the fact that the Rangers can sustain a loss of a great prospect better than most teams. IOW, if the Mets (for example) and Rangers have approximately equivalent prospects to offer, they’re not on equal footing. The Rangers have more high-ceiling talent behind what they’d offer, so they are hurt less by trading it away.
Learn you some marginal utility bros
I would agree that the Rangers can sustain a greater hit, but both the Mets and the Rangers have the same problem when it come to the Mariners demands. Smoak and I. Davis are both the future 1B starters for their teams and neither can afford letting them go. I suppose that Texas has C Davis to back up, but they clearly did view him to be more than a place holder for Smoak. Beyond that, the Mets and Rangers have VASTLY different talent pools. The Rangers are LOADED with pitchers, way more and of higher quality than the Mets farm. I would never say they are equivalent.
Davis are both the future 1B starters for their teams and neither can afford letting them go. I suppose that Texas has C Davis to back up, but they clearly did view him to be more than a place holder for Smoak.
Er, wut. Yes, one can definitely afford to let theirs go: Texas. Davis was a placeholder not because he sucks but because Smoak is better. You’d never prefer Davis to Smoak…
…Unless maybe it meant getting Cliff Lee.
No, a Holland/Davis kind of thing could work well for both teams.
Talk about an overrated prospect in Alonso. No power, probably a .250-.260 hitter in the bigs, etc. No way I would deal Lee to the Reds if he was the main centerpiece.
Alonso is coming off a broken hamate bone in his wrist … those kind of injuries kill power for about a year after that type of injury. That said, he would be PART of a deal … not the center piece IMO … I am sure the Reds would have to add a couple of other pretty good prospects to make it happen … but if the M’s want to much … I’ll pass … Lee just isn’t worth it as a two month rental
But Alonso really has never shown a lot of power. He’s shown a good approach at the plate but the lack of power is disconcerting for a offensive 1B prospect.
He slugged at a near .500 clip in the FSL … a notoriously bad league for hitters before being rushed up due to injuries … Homers are not the only consideration when it comes to power … he hits a ton of doubles. Which in Seattle’s gigantic stadium, would be a big plus
He has been coming back from a broken hamate bone and is finally tapping back into his stroke. He was rushed up to AAA too soon because of injuries and he wasn’t ready yet. He is finally starting to heal and get healthy.
Yonder Alonzo his a good to great prospect. His defense is below average, but is power and patience more than make up for it.
He his every bit has talented has Matt Laporta. Just a left handed version. And Laporta was used a cornerstone piece in landing an elite left handed starting pitcher a couple deadlines ago.
So a package featuring Yonder Alonzo and Homer Bailey along with a couple of prospects may intrigue the Mariners.
I’m just saying his minor league numbers (any of them) don’t show big hitter potential.
.276/.353/.423 in 619 MiL ABs over 3 years. Also only 16HRs in that time. The injury could attest for some of the problems I guess but its still a cause for concern that he’s struggling mightily in AAA this year at 23 years old.
Moving Smoak for Lee doesn’t make any sense, his bat is starting to heat up and you would be subtracting an important piece of the ML roster to add another. Also, Alonso really shouldn’t be mentioned in the same breath as Smoak. Prospects like Perez and Beltre could be in play but no way is Smoak, doesn’t make a lick of sense if they are trying to make the playoffs on a rental.
Moving Smoak for Lee doesn’t make any sense, his bat is starting to heat up and you would be subtracting an important piece of the ML roster to add another.
How can you even pretend this is a complete analysis? Smoak’s production — which doesn’t exist yet, but is projectable — can be adequately replaced (if not matched) by Davis. The Rangers are not hurting for offense.
Exchanging a surplus to fill a need makes all the sense in the world. It is merely a question of how much Lee would help now versus how much losing Smoak+ would hurt in years to come.
Considering that Chris Davis’ swing and miss tendencies have not translated to the majors and it’s been three seperate stints, I don’t know how you can consider Smoak + Davis a surplus. Chris Davis has given no indication that he can be an average major league first baseman while Smoak has seemingly adjusted to major league pitching since early struggles in May.
You said they would be subtracting an important piece of the ML roster. Important to what? You think Chris Davis can’t hit .200 with some pop? Smoak has not been important to them so far and their success this season clearly doesn’t depend on premier production from 1B. It is a matter of trading a solution to a future potential need in order to acquire a solution to a known present need. And two picks.The surplus referred to their offense, not 1B specifically.
The whole Smoak conversation is silly. Aside from the talent argument … Smoak is their 1st baseman. Someone they need (hence the call-up). Teams in contention generally don’t want to subtract from their ML roster only to add pieces back in. You want to maximize the strength of your current roster by keeping everyone you have AND then adding new pieces.
Lee to the Rangers makes a ton of sense given his limited salary. However, it won’t be in a deal for Smoak.
I agree with everything you said, but if Olney is right, and the competion is heating up for Lee, someone might get desperate and force the Rangers to give up Smoak or lose him. Would the Rangers do it?Hypothetical question to Rangers fans: IF you could be certain that adding Lee to your roster would guarantee a WS title, would you trade Smoak? Remember, a hypothetical question, so you would have to assume its true.
Yep.
See I’m kinda more for keeping the prospects, but that situation is different. Guaranteed title? You take that 15 times out of 10.
Why shouldn’t the M’s expect “possible” future star’s in a Lee deal (rental or not)? Jesus Montero, F Mart, Domonic Brown are all nice. But they are still just prospects. None of them have proven at all that they can play in the majors. Lee has proven that whatever contending team gets him will be the team to beat in their division. Might be “renting” themselves a world series title.
Don’t be dumb. Every top prospect is 2 or 3 years from being an All-Star and 10-15 from the HOF.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you were joking with that laughable comment.
Nothing gets by you.
Fernando Martinez hit .350 this past Spring Training. He didn’t get as much attention as Jason Heyward got during Spring Training, but he was very impressive. His issue is staying on the field, but he’s also only 21. Dumping on Mets prospects is old news, sooooo 2009. Jonathan Niese, Ike Davis and even Reuben Tejada have proven that.
As I’m sure you know, spring training numbers don’t mean a whole heck of a lot. Shoot Mike Sweeney hit over .700 for much of the spring and earned himself a spot on the M’s opening day roster. His regular season numbers have been mediocre at best. That’s not to say that F Mart may not turn into a decent major league player. But I think JackZ is looking for something more than a packager centered around F Mart. Maybe even something more than a package with both Mejia and F Mart.
Chris Parmelee could actually make a semi-interesting addition to Wilson Ramos in a package from the Twins if the Mariners are interested in “big bat potential.” He’s struggling in AA right now, but he’s a former first round pick (out of high school) who’s got huge power and has shown it all the way through the minors to this point. He strikes out a lot but can draw a walk as well and only turned 22 this season.
Ramos, Parmelee, and a pitcher or two seems like something that can intrigue the Mariners that the Twins could part with. It’s not like the Twins are going to be in need of a first baseman for the next few seasons anyway.
I think that is a good idea… Parmelee has the pedigee (first round selection) and minor league track record (good power and walk numbers) to potentially intrigue the Mariners. Maybe Ramos, Parmelee and Swazak for Lee?
I see this as a darkhorse situation. The Reds just make too much sense with Alonso blocked by Votto. Im not very familiar with the Cincy’s farm system but I am sure they would have a few other pieces to fit along with him. Possibly Alonso+Homer Bailey+ that Mesoraco catcher. The Rangers are a good fit though as well. I would say Scheppers + Chris Davis + Max Ramirez would snag Lee. In addition they could send Rich Harden so he could be close to his Canadian homeland and they could send back Milton Bradley who hit like the Dickens when he played in Texas two seasons ago. They would probably have to work out the money owed situation but it makes total sense to me. Maybe Harden could find his feel again like he had in 08 with the Chubbies and Bradley could bother his old team. Maybe Ron Washington and Bradley could talk it out over and 8 ball.
I think with the progress that Mesaraco has made this year, you would be hard pressed to pry him out of my dead fingers … and I hope Jockety feels the same way. Top catching prospects are to hard to come by … I’d be pretty upset if Walt dealt him for a 2-3 month rental. Alonso, Bailey & Valaika would make more sense to me because both Alonso(Votto) & Valaika (Phillips) are blocked at the ML level.
Milton is owed 12 million for 2011 plus another 6 or so this year. Rangers ain’t taking that on and Seattle wouldn’t eat it.
If I am the Rangers I don’t move Smoak. I would prefer to see them maybe build something around Chris Davis. Especially if Lee is going to be just a rental player. Giving up Smoak for a few months of Lee just isn’t good.
The comparisons to the C.C. Sabathia trade need to stop. That should be a reason to NOT trade top prospects because you know that Lee is going to leave to NYY in the off season, just like Sabathia. If the Twins, Mets, Phillies, Rangers, etc think they have a chance to sign Lee in the off season, they are sorely mistaken.
To the Smoak’s bat heating up comment- 4-36 in his last 10 games with no home runs, not really heating up in my opinion. Everyone is so caught up in not giving up a prospect for a proven superstar it’s ridiculous. all these comments “it would be dumb to trade away Smoak for Cliff Lee”…. Why would it be dumb to trade away an unproven prospect for arguably the best pitcher in the Major leagues right now in hopes of capturing a must needed world title? im confused here…….. If i was the mariners I would want more than Justin Smoak, they can get a prospect just as good if not better than Smoak by just keeping Lee and receiving draft picks, get real Rangers fan, stop riding your high horse, your in first for the first time in what seems like forever, win now because we all no you wont be winning later.
The best possible scenerio for the Mariners if they keep Lee and just receive the two draft picks is picks number 16 and 31ish, but it could end up being the supplemental pick and a second round pick if one of the worst 15 teams end up signing him this offseason….so dont say the M’s can get just as good if not better prospects as Smoak when he was considered a top 5 pick in 2008.
I understand what your saying but you also must realize he wouldn’t be considered a top 5 pick now, i’d take 2 draft picks within the first 40 picks before i would just be satisfied with Justin Smoak. His righty lefty splits concern me along with his inexperience, this whole conversation is mute though because Lee will in all likelihood not be a Texas Ranger anytime soon.
Moot
There’s like a 1% chance Seattle would get a player as good as Smoak in next years draft. Not a good argument.
Here’s another argument: Giving up Smoak isn’t necessary. The Texas Rangers are very deep on the farm and are rich in high ceiling prospects that would entice the Mariners.
But the Mariners are rumored to want a ML ready bat. That widdles it down quite a bit.
Wouldn’t the M’s want someone that is not in the bigs yet since they are nowhere near contention next year or the year after? IMO, even if they had Smoak all of this year, they still would have been no better than a third place team.
Just askin’, hopefully someone can clarify.
As bad as Seattle’s been, its not out of the question they contend next year if they get a decent haul for Lee. Its not like they’re the Pirates or anything.
I don’t care when the Mariners want in return for Lee the bottom line is NO GM in major league baseball will trade a at the major league level or right now major league ready guy in a package deal for a guy who will be free to walk away after the season.
The only way that seattle gets the return they want is if Lee agree to a new contract prior to the deal happening.
So good luck with dealing Lee.
Its kinda like the question I posed farther up. I asked Ranger fans, “Would you give up Smoak for Lee if you knew it would give you a WS ring?” Thus far the only reply was a simple “Yep.” That’s the same question that JD is asking himself right now. The Rangers have the offense to beat any team in the ML. Their bullpen isn’t bad, but their starting rotation needs a front liner to complement the 2-3s that they’ve got in there. Its not a guarantee by any means that Lee will get them a WS ring, but if you look at that team as a whole, they start to remind you of the ’08 Phillies, with the massive offensive punch, the young unknown rotation anchored by Lee, and that lock down closer. The Rangers have never even been to a WS much less won one. This may be the best shot that they have at it. Can you honestly say there is no way the Rangers or any other team will come to the same conclusion? That they say, “Maybe this year is our year.”
That is why the Mariners can ask for the moon. And with so many teams seemingly close to the top of their divisions, its more likely now that someone will give into the demands.
Here’s one from a Rangers fan since the 1970s…nope. I wouldn’t go for one World Series win now and back to mediocrity for the next few years because we trade away our top talent to the Mariners. This team isn’t a “one and done” team. It is built to be successful next year too and with Vlad to be back next year, the sale of the club to be done for sure by the winter meetings, then the Rangers can use this season to secure a top pitching talent for a run next season.
The question really isn’t whether it’d be worth it if they won the WS. The answer to that question is easy.
The question is whether it’s worth it merely for the chance to win a WS. That’s a toughy.
I wish you were right, but with this Molina trade, the Rangers seem to think that maybe they have to win this year or else…which is foolish. I’d be happy to see the team in the playoffs this year and then use that experience to win the World Series next year with the existing talent on the team PLUS picking up a top pitcher in a trade or as a free agent in the offseason without giving up all that young talent that could produce an ace on its own for this club to build around for years to come.
If you think that the M’s won’t get great prospects within the first 40 picks of the draft you are HIGH. When Jack Zduriencik was in Milwaukee they drafted:
Ben Sheets
Prince Fielder
Ryan Braun
Rickie Weeks
Mat Gamel (4th round)
Tony Gwynn Jr. (2nd round)
Dana Eveland (16th round)
Hunter Pence (40th round)
J.J. Hardy (2nd round)
Matt Laporta
So lets please stop acting like the 2 draft picks isn’t worth anything. In a few years our farm system will be just as stocked as any now that we have a decent GM running the show.
You do realize those 1st round picks were in the top 10 right? Out of those other picks only 1 is worth mentioning…Pence. You would rather roll the dice on a player who has experience in the minors and producing against better talent..to a player who turns out to be a Gamel, Gwynn Jr., Eveland and Hardy? Because unless you get extremely lucky you won’t be drafting a Sheets, Fielder, Braun, Weeks or Laporta with picks you got from some team signing Cliff Lee.
I would probably trade Smoak for Lee…if that were all I had to give up in top talent, but the Ms are gonna want Smoak, Holland or Hunter, Scheppers Perez or Font and probably Kiker or Beavan too. Even if just 3 of the names above for Lee without an extension, as a Rangers fan, I wouldn’t give up a bright future of home grown talent and multiple WS wins for one MAYBE WS win this season.
We can all blame Omar Minaya for this way of thinking that teams cannot give up young talent for proven veterans ( i.e., Bartolo Colon trade ). Same for that bozo that gave up Adam Jones and George Sherrill and whoever else for Erik Bedard. But you cannot hold onto prospects for years while your team is so close to a title. Sometimes you just trade them and get the proven veteran and try for it all. I see no problem with Texas giving up Smoak in a deal with a couple low level prospects. Maybe if its Chris Davis instead you throw in a Scheppers or Perez to base the deal around. But you dont not make the deal because of that. I think you can draft a good fielding 1B with power easier than you can make up for Cliff Lee.
I like how you think 😉
The prospects that Cleveland got for Lee when he was first traded need to be a reference. Pitchers Carlos Carrasco and Jason Knapp, catcher Lou Marson, shortstop Jason Donald were sent to Cleveland and Philly received Lee and Ben Francisco. All four of those players were listed in the top ten of most Philly Prospects lists for 2009, but none of them were truly “elite” or “blue chip” prospects.
That was a trade that netted Philly 1.5 years worth of Lee, not just a rental type trade. Since Lee is now only worth half a season the return for the Mariners should be less. Let’s say they get 2 top 10 prospects.
That means:
Twins: Wilson Ramos and David Bromberg
Mets: Ruben Tejada and Brad Holt
Rangers: Tanner Scheppers and Jurickson Profar
Reds: Yonder Alonso and Travis Wood
I doubt you can quantify it like that. Cliff Lee will be worth what some team is willing to pay. With as many as 15 teams on him I wouldn’t be surprised if its more than people think.
I guess I wasn’t try to say that is what the Mariners WILL get, but more that it is what they SHOULD get. It seems that most teams are valuing their prospects more than in the past. The Mariners might have to settle for quality in one prospect over quantity in multiple.
I laugh a little bit every time I read the name “Yonder Alonso”. It’s almost as good as “Socrates Brito”.
I just like how everyone seems to knownfor a fact that Seattle won’t get top prospects in return. You guys aren’t the darn GMs and we won’t know until it happens.