9:25pm: An AL GM told ESPN.com's Buster Olney that he believes the Twins could acquire Lee with a package built around prospect Wilson Ramos. Rival GMs believe the Rangers may be better off holding onto their prospects than acquiring Lee.
4:15pm: The Mariners have not started making counter offers for Lee, according to ESPN.com's Buster Olney. Rival executives remind Olney that the Mariners may want to deal soon, since an injury would deflate Lee's trade value (all Twitter links)
3:37pm: The Mets, Yankees, Rangers and Phillies appeared to be the only teams scouting Lee last night, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. The Twins and Dodgers were among the interested teams that did not attend, but it is early and Lee is a known commodity, so the lack of scouts hardly means there's a lack of interest.
10:11am: The Mariners will require a blue-chip prospect in a Cliff Lee trade, reports Joel Sherman of the New York Post, even though the last two Lee trades may not have included one. Sherman suggests the Mets want Lee badly, while the Yankees would just like the Ms to "keep them posted."
Sherman explains that the Mariners like, but don't love, Mets pitching prospect Jenrry Mejia. He feels that a Mets trade would have to be built around Mejia or Wilmer Flores. The Mets are willing to trade Flores in a Lee deal, reports Matthew Cerrone of MetsBlog. They're reluctant to part with other top prospects. The Mets would like to trade for a starting pitcher as soon as possible, but Cerrone says the Mariners prefer to wait until after the All-Star break to trade Lee.
From the Yankees side, Sherman recommends they make Jesus Montero available. They've done so before when Lee and Roy Halladay were on the trade market. Sherman also notes that the Mariners like Yankees Double A second baseman David Adams. Baseball America ranked Adams 22nd among Yankees prospects heading into the season, and he sports a .309/.393/.507 line at Trenton. Should the Yanks prefer to pursue Lee as a free agent, Bill Madden of the New York Daily News learned that old friend C.C. Sabathia would be happy to help recruit.
In a longer blog post, Sherman elaborates on what Lee would mean for the Mets, what the Mariners will require, and how prospects are overvalued these days.
Please mets trade meija+a few other guys!!! Cliff Lee is a sure thing. Meija is not. Plus even if they can’t extend Lee in the offseason, they get two draft picks if he goes somewhere else with which they can replace meija. This is a perfect scenario for the mets. Lee would do really well in Citi Field and a 1-2-3 of Lee, Pelfrey and Santana sounds pretty darn good. If they get Lee I believe they win the division. It will also be fun to see a Lee vs Halladay matchup!
trade some of our farm system gems, with bright futures, for a guy who will make 10 to 15 starts & bolt for the Bronx? NO WAY!
As an M’s fan, I’d prefer that your Mets don’t trade for Lee. Seattle needs a couple of big-time bats more than it does pitching.
I don’t want the Mets to trade for Lee either, I like our prospects.
Do you like takahashi pitching every 5 days? For that matter do you like 5-5 johan santana pitching every 5 days? We do not have a legitimate ace right now and expecting ted lily or fausto carmona to do anything is just stupid. I think met fans are content on making the playoffs… well i want a world series and that’s exactly what lee will do make us big time world series contenders
So then Lee leaves and how does our rotation look in 2011? When Meija could’ve been a part of 2011..you just traded him for a chance to get into ONE World Series. Lee leaves we’ll have 2 holes in the rotation..oh wait, we can always use Maine and Ollie again. That’s been working out great.
I’d rather not think of winning a World Series RIGHT NOW, however, if the Mets can trade F-Mart, Holt and someone not named Flores, Havens, Kirk, Mejia, Tejada, Niese, Parnell, or Familia it’ll be a good trade.
I’m happy with the opportunities Takahashi and Santana gives the team to win. I also DO NOT want Lilly or Carmona. I’d rather have Haren to be honest.
I’d rather not think of winning a World Series RIGHT NOW, however, if the Mets can trade F-Mart, Holt and someone not named Flores, Havens, Kirk, Mejia, Tejada, Niese, Parnell, or Familia it’ll be a good trade.
I’m happy with the opportunities Takahashi and Santana gives the team to win. I also DO NOT want Lilly or Carmona. I’d rather have Haren to be honest.
The mets prospects aren’t great if you could trade meija and a few lesser guys for lee I dont see how you dont do it…that would almost secure a playoff spot for the mets
And a fair shot at making a run with that 1-2.
But all the talk is not about the Mets lesser prospects…
But all the talk is not about the Mets lesser prospects…
Agreed. I still remember the Santana trade. Those prospects were bad.
Very liberal use of the word “prospect” there.
Very liberal use of the word “prospect” there.
Yes way, because your GM don’t think this way. For him, winning a World Series title generate more revenue than having a bunch of young players, it’s not about quantity it’s quality.
If they happen to lose him in the offseason they get two draft picks…
It’s the same exact deal with Santana, remember when some people said not to trade Carlos Gomez? Look how the mets turned out, they got a 6 year deal done and now they are a much better team.
Exactly, prospects are never a sure thing but Cliff Lee is and even if you only have him for half a year…hes going to get you a bunch of really good starts. Although Santana is struggling this year, that trade has still worked out well for the mets.
Jose Reyes, Mike Pelfrey and F-Mart were the players not to be included. Carlos Gomez was never a factor. Mets were not holding up that deal because of Carlos Gomez
Who do the Mariners think they are? They’re asking the Mets, Yankees, and Twins for they’re BEST prospects for 12 starts of Lee. Are you serious? The Mariners GM should be happy if he gets one A level guy for Lee. Trading away someone like Jesus Montero or Jenrry Meija for Lee would be a SIN! Montero is a hitting machine and projects to have Mike Piazza numbers while Meija figures to be an above average starter. Trading prospects like this would be cool only if a guarantee was made that Lee would sign an extension with his new team. Message to Mariners from the Yankees : HAND OVER LEE ALREADY!
Do you not know how these kind of trades work?
It’s called trying to win-now. As a Yankees fan, you should understand that. When the other guy has something you want or need, you give him what he wants. What you’re trying to do is bully the guy into thinking you’re too good for him.
That doesn’t ever work, especially since this isn’t grade school. Prospects are prospects. A lot of Yankees fans and in the organization don’t even know if Montero can play the catcher position well enough defensively. If that’s the case, Montero is nothing but a DH or a 1B, which would greatly decrease his value.
Cliff Lee is a money pitcher, and has been since 2008. The guy is a tier1 pitcher. Remember when the Brewers traded for C.C. two years ago? They gave up probably their best prospect in LaPorta. Where the hell is he now? Hitting .230 for the Indians…
TOTALLY WORTHWHILE. Seriously, your arrogance is sickening. Take your 27 World Series championships anywhere you want, but the Mariners aren’t going to beg the Yankees to take Cliff Lee off their hands.
They are asking for that many prospects because if they lose him to free agency they get two pretty good picks in the draft…
A window for discussing an extension would have to be part of the deal for a big market team, or else they won’t bother. Whoever gets this guy doesn’t want him as a rental, they want him for 6-7 years down the road also. A blue-chip prospect should be given up because this guy can flat out pitch. If teams were smart though, they would hold on to their prospects and not jump into a deal right away. The M’s will get desparate at some point.
Craziness. I would so much rather have Lee as a rental than have to sign him LT. Give me the picks to hopefully replenish most of what I lose in acquiring his ace ass. I’ll happily take my chances in the playoffs with Lee & Santana (for example).
What about the reports that the Phillies Assistant to GM Ruben Amaro was in the Bronx last night to watch Cliff Lee pitch????? I swear to god if the Mets get Cliff Lee Ruben will be run out of town faster than Eddie Jordan.
I read that…I think they were probably scouting Aardsma considering Lidge sucks.
The M’s get desperate? They have nothing to lose. He walks away at the end of the season and they get draft picks. Seems to me the desperation will be from the contending teams, those who believe an addition of Lee can get them to the top. He is a sure thing (Lee = WINS). Prospects…not so much.
Yup. If I’m the Mariners, I play hardball the whole way home. Here’s the list of demands. Call us when you’re ready or good luck with your season.
I hope he gets dealt, because the guy deserves to win a ring. Not saying the Mariners should give him away, but in a perfect world, Lee goes to a contender, wins them a championship, and the Mariners re-stock for 2011 and beyond. Win-win.
It would be unfortunate for him to finish 2010 with Seattle, without any hope for the playoffs. Although it’s certainly possible – look at Alfonso Soriano when he was with the Nationals. They apparently didn’t get offered more than the two draft picks were worth to them, so he didn’t get moved.
I say take the 2 draft picks. As a matter of fact, in the last 10yrs, how many Mariners came thru the system and was drafted? People keep mentioning draft picks like their team will pull out a stud. I don’t follow the Mariners and i could be wrong wrong wrong but the last time you had a drafted player become something special was a long time ago. His name was Ken Griffey Jr. Who have you had since?
Morrow was a top prospect that you guys drafted and he never became what you guys expected. Then there was that OF you guys included in a trade to the Mets in the deal for Putz. You have 2 stars on your team and none were drafted. Still want those draft picks now?
I don’t follow the Mariners and i could be wrong wrong wrong but the last time you had a drafted player become something special was a long time ago. His name was Ken Griffey Jr. Who have you had since?
They had one other dude who turned out okay. I think his last name was Rodriguez or something. Can’t remember his first name.
How long ago was tho? THE 90’S? lol..I purposely left him off to prove my point. You havent had a star caliber player drafted in over a decade. But you guys keep mentioning draft picks, like you gonna draft the next Albert Pujols
How long ago was tho? THE 90’S? lol..I purposely left him off to prove my point. You havent had a star caliber player drafted in over a decade. But you guys keep mentioning draft picks, like you gonna draft the next Albert Pujols
Seriously, roids or not, how could he forget that they drafted A-Rod?
Seriously, roids or not, how could he forget that they drafted A-Rod?
I didn’t..i wanted them to say it..just so it would prove my point. The last player they drafted with any relevance was in the 90’s. So draft picks mean squat
I didn’t..i wanted them to say it..just so it would prove my point. The last player they drafted with any relevance was in the 90’s. So draft picks mean squat
QED
QED
That last sentence is just so horribly wrong, I don’t even know what to say….
The question should be for the other team; Do you want a world series ring, or not?
Alex Rodriguez has had an ok career.
I would never trade Mejia or Flores for a rental of Lee. A controllable pitcher would be different.
It’s not just Lee. It’s also the two draft picks you net when you offer him arbitration and he signs elsewhere. 3-4 marginal wins from Lee, plus hopefully his postseason starts, plus the value of the two draft picks, is pretty valuable to a contender.
Look at it this way – if you give up Meija and Flores, you get two high draft picks to replace them, plus Lee. If you draft well, all you really lose is the years of development time for the draft picks to catch up to where Meija and Flores were.
Mejia and Flores are stars. I doubt those supplemental picks will be as good as they are.
Neither of those two are stars. Stop it.
Ok I went overboard with “stars” but Flores is 18. In the US he’d be graduating HS but he’s in high A with guys 2-3 years older than him and he’s raking and rarely strikes out. Guys like that don’t grow on trees. Mejia is projected to be a front of the rotation starter. Neither of which are worth a rental.
You don’t need to convince me that they’re great prospects; they are. Great prospects indeed do not grow on trees. But they’re not nearly as rare as Cliff Lee’s.
Certainty is extremely valuable. That Flores is 18 for example suggests some good things, sure, but it also means there’s a lot of room, a lot of time before he’s valuable for his production rather than his potential production.
I’m not doubting him. It’s just the choice the Mets have to make. They are rolling the dice either way. What confidence can you have that when the time comes the Mets will be able to surround Mejia and Flores (presuming they flourish) with a good enough team to win championships? There are WAY more variables to account for. As a gambler, that’s not the better bet.
Lee is no guaranteed WS ticket. But his production is a virtual lock, and you know exactly what kind of team you’re adding him to. This is why teams almost always prefer certain commodities now to potential commodities later, even when the latter might be better overall commodities.
You don’t need to convince me that they’re great prospects; they are. Great prospects indeed do not grow on trees. But they’re not nearly as rare as Cliff Lee’s.
Certainty is extremely valuable. That Flores is 18 for example suggests some good things, sure, but it also means there’s a lot of room, a lot of time before he’s valuable for his production rather than his potential production.
I’m not doubting him. It’s just the choice the Mets have to make. They are rolling the dice either way. What confidence can you have that when the time comes the Mets will be able to surround Mejia and Flores (presuming they flourish) with a good enough team to win championships? There are WAY more variables to account for. As a gambler, that’s not the better bet.
Lee is no guaranteed WS ticket. But his production is a virtual lock, and you know exactly what kind of team you’re adding him to. This is why teams almost always prefer certain commodities now to potential commodities later, even when the latter might be better overall commodities.
OK. So what’s an elite young shortstop prospect worth? Fortunately, we have a way to figure that out – what teams pay those prospects through the draft or as non-drafted free agents. If Flores was drafted as an elite HS shortstop, top 5 draft pick let’s say – what would he get? $5 mil?
Now he has a value. Balance that against the value of half a season of Lee ($7-10 mil), along with the draft picks you get after you offer him arb, and you see how Flores plus something is what you need.
I said it further up, but people are underrating how valuable Lee is, even in half a season. On the open market, he’d get far more than the $4.5 million he’s due in salary. Let’s say $12 million – half of Sabathia’s salary. You’re getting a $12 million player for $4.5 million. That’s a $7.5 million savings.
Yes, half a year of a player can be very valuable.
You know who else raked as an 18 year old shortstop in A ball?
Wilson Betemit.
you know who else was traded for and did NOT bring a WS ring?
Cliff Lee
Phillies – made it to the show…did not win it all
Mariner – traded for lee…and stunk up the house with him
you know who else was traded for and did NOT bring a WS ring?
Cliff Lee
Phillies – made it to the show…did not win it all
Mariner – traded for lee…and stunk up the house with him
You know who else raked as an 18 year old shortstop in A ball?
Wilson Betemit.
Ok I went overboard with “stars” but Flores is 18. In the US he’d be graduating HS but he’s in high A with guys 2-3 years older than him and he’s raking and rarely strikes out. Guys like that don’t grow on trees. Mejia is projected to be a front of the rotation starter. Neither of which are worth a rental.
As a Mets fan, after seeing the way the Mets drafted this year, I really don’t care too much about the picks.
Yankees are going to be looking for veteran bench help and a reliever, not another starter. They’ll wait till Cliff Lee is a free agent and keep Montero (much like they did with CC – Hughes)
How about Wilmer Flores SS, Reese Havens 2B, Fransico Pena C, and Robert Carson LHP. fellow Met fans might think thats to much, but even though I don’t think Lee is the one way ticket to a ring that Seattle fan’s make him out to be, I think on our team he is the missing link. He would make the twins stronger, but we have a much more dynamic offense and Lee puts our rotation over the top. We don’t need Lee exactly but we need a good pitcher and I don’t see the point in getting anybody else when Takahashi and Dickey could very well end up with more wins than Lilly or Carmona, and the diamondbacks want even more than the Mariners for Dan Haren.
Look over what you said.
I really see the Mets as the team that gets Lee.
I don’t see the Twins giving up prospects. They *love* their system and never want to give up players that are close to (or recently promoted to) the majors. Good fit with the Mariners, unfortunately for them.
The Mariners are going to want near-MLB ready talent in return. The way I see it, Flores is a little far away for them, since he’s ~2 years away from the majors. If I had to guess, I’d say they’d get Meija (could be in the rotation next year), Tejada (MLB-ready middle infielder, Jack Wilson can’t stay healthy), and someone else (probably another AA/AAA arm – LH relief type?). Fernando Martinez would be interesting, but Michael Saunders is playing pretty well and if he sticks in LF, you don’t have a spot for Martinez. Thole isn’t a sufficient improvement over in-house options to include.
Mets fans, what say ye? Is that a deal that works for both sides?
Im just worried about Mejia’s shoulder. I think Flores, Tejada, and Havens is a good deal for us.
Tejada gives us the near ready ML player that Jack likes. The other two guys have good sticks that could be regulars in a few years.
Three middle infielders? With Dustin Ackley in AA?
Three middle infielders? With Dustin Ackley in AA?
This deal was brought up in a thread yesterday and makes sense to me. Mejia, Tejada, and a B prospect not named Martinez or Thole.
Not sure if the Mets would do it, but I think Seattle would be silly to turn it down.
This deal was brought up in a thread yesterday and makes sense to me. Mejia, Tejada, and a B prospect not named Martinez or Thole.
Not sure if the Mets would do it, but I think Seattle would be silly to turn it down.
If you read the NY Post, you will know Joel Sherman is a complete idiot.
Ms will not get Flores for Lee. He is a rental. Flores is only 18 and is raking while he is the youngest in his league.
Fernando Martinez, Josh Thole, 2 pitching prospects are more than enough.
“He is a rental” is simplistic. You’re renting half a season of an elite SP for $4.5 million, way below market value. The difference between his performance level and his contract is substantial.
Yes, Flores is a good prospect. He’s also 18 and in high A ball. He could flame out. People have studied the value of prospects like him and figured out a value. Pretty sure it’s less than half a year of Lee.
If the Red Sox wanted they could land Lee in a second before any of these teams trying to get him. So let’s not start with the Yankees being the “big boys.” The Sox are one game out and if they feel like Beckett is going to need time and Dice-K and Wake aren’t cutting it, they have more prospects with bright futures than any of these teams.
I wish the red sox never got lackey and traded for lee…Ima sox fan and I just really hate lackey.
Sox fan here too. And I’d rather see Lee, but Lackey will come around.
No need to hate him. He is a quality starter.
Hating his contract makes sense, though.
No need to hate him. He is a quality starter.
Hating his contract makes sense, though.
The Sox really just paid him to be an innings eater and give them the top rotation in the league. 4.00 ERA and 200 innings? I’ll take it, plus he is good at keeping his team in the game and is a winner.
Lackey is being paid way too much for him to just be an innings eater, so I doubt that was Mr. Eptsein’s plan for him.
While I agree that the Red Sox have a better farm system than the Mets and Yankees, their system value has significantly decreased the last year and a half. Buch is no longer trade bait (in my opinion), Westmoreland’s injury makes him a huge wild card, Reddick and Kalish have never had world beater potential, Lars’ value has plummeted since the beginning of ’09, Bard is probably untouchable since Paplebon seems to already have one foot out the door, and as for Doubront, well I actually like the way that kid pitches, so we’ll see about him.
Yeah, it’s not a lot better anymore really. It’s mostly been made worse by success actually as Bard & Buch no longer count imo. Neither does Westmoreland. Kelly, Iglesias, and maybe Doubrount are the only sexy names around at this point.
They have lots and lots of what you might call prospective prospects – low A talent with good ceilings – in Rizzo, Pimentel, Fuentes, maybe Tejada and some of the new draftees. But in terms of exchange or trade value, those guys don’t count for much yet.
You do not consider Kalish sexy ? Gotta call JT to being sexy back. 🙂
Way I see it Lee is going to be the Teixeira of pitchers. He will never sign an extension. Seattle wants Montero, if any starters get injured or start having consistent bad outings, Yanks make the move. As A Sox fan, who has seen Montero in Double AA, I’d be happy if this trade is made. Lee for a few months to Montero for the next 8 years would make me happy.
If the Yankees dealt for Lee, they wouldn’t let him go anywhere. So you’re talking about instead of 8 years of Montero – knowing NYY – probably 18 years of Lee. 3 or 4 of which would suck for you.
I still don’t get why it is a forgone conclusion that the Yankees will sign Lee. I realize they have been the foremost buyers the past few year but how many long term deals and tens of millions of dollars guaranteed to guys who will be in their early to mid 30’s when the deal is up until they realize it isn’t the way to build a team? I think they will aggressively pursue Lee but I think someone else will get him. And if I were a Yankees fan I’d be happy with that too, better than having 3 pitchers locked up into their mid 30s for around 20mil each. Not to mention what you’ll have to pay Jeter, Arod, Teixeira, Cano after 2013, and Crawford if they get him (who I think they want more than Lee). That’s potentially 8 guys who will be making big money and maybe Hughes and Chamberlain depending on when they hit arbitration not to mention anyone else New York will /have/ to have over the next 3 years. Even the Yankees have a limit. Note: Mariano is left out because I don’t think he will be around at this time. I think he’d be happy with 2 more years.
how many long term deals and tens of millions of dollars guaranteed to guys who will be in their early to mid 30’s when the deal is up until they realize it isn’t the way to build a team?
Eh? It’s been working pretty well. It’s not a good way to build a team iff you have a short budget.
That’s potentially 8 guys who will be making big money and maybe Hughes and Chamberlain depending on when they hit arbitration not to mention anyone else New York will /have/ to have over the next 3 years. Even the Yankees have a limit.
Probably. But I don’t think they’re very close to it. “He costs a lot” is not a valid reason for NY not to sign Lee. If he demands crazy years, that would be. But they could always just jack up the salary for shorter years.
Well why should Lee be looking for anything less than Burnett’s 5yr/82.5mil contract as a start? Lee is left-handed and is just plain better than Burnett. And both have the same agent I believe. Do the Yankees really want to deal out another contract like that? I made a post a month ago or so where I listed the ages of Yankees players in the last year of Burnetts contract and it wasn’t pretty.Edit: they do in fact have the same agent
Well why should Lee be looking for anything less than Burnett’s 5yr/82.5mil contract as a start?
Actually he should be starting with Lackey’s deal, but yes.
Do the Yankees really want to deal out another contract like that?
Probably. Especially if they can talk him into 4 for more money. The guy is good. And the Yankees like good. Not to mention that a title or two will mean it’s more than paid off.
They really aren’t as concerned with total budget as it seems to most of us they should be. A mil does not mean to them what it does to you and I and 29 other franchises.
I know the money aspects and the Yankees lucrative TV deal and everything else that makes them a lot of moolah but there is still a cap as to what they want to be paying. And if they do get Crawford I say here is no way they get Lee.
You could be right. But I kinda doubt it.
Lee will almost certainly be prioritized over Crawford, the Yankees have at minimum 1 rotation spot open next year, with the possibility of another one being open if Andy retires, whereas in the OF, there isn’t a whole lot of room for Crawford unless Gardner decides to drop off a cliff.
Well Crawford is a guy who the Yankees have wanted since forever I’m sure and if they don’t get him, I’m sure the Sox will be in on him.
Except they already have a player just like Crawford in Brett Gardner, I’m not saying Brett is as good as Carl, just that they have the same skill set, good defense, phenomenal speed and light power, there is no reason for the Yankees to pursue Crawford at the expense of solidifying the rotation.
I think there’s a chance Crawford develops some pop in the next few years, particularly in Yankee stadium.
Having said that, I really like Gardner.
No doubt NYS would help Crawford’s HR totals, I just don’t think it will be worth it for the Yankees to give him a 5/80MM deal when Brett Gardner can do everything that makes Crawford valuable minus HR power, which Crawford doesn’t even have that much of (~15 if he played half his games in pinstripes).
I also really like Gardner, he plays all out all the time, and I remember last year when he visited a kid that had cancer and promised him/her (I can’t remember) that he’d hit a home run that day, and he got an inside the park HR, that was just awesome, and I’d like to see him stick in the OF. (provided that he can keep up his current level of production)
I know the money aspects and the Yankees lucrative TV deal and everything else that makes them a lot of moolah but there is still a cap as to what they want to be paying. And if they do get Crawford I say here is no way they get Lee.
Well why should Lee be looking for anything less than Burnett’s 5yr/82.5mil contract as a start?
Actually he should be starting with Lackey’s deal, but yes.
Do the Yankees really want to deal out another contract like that?
Probably. Especially if they can talk him into 4 for more money. The guy is good. And the Yankees like good. Not to mention that a title or two will mean it’s more than paid off.
They really aren’t as concerned with total budget as it seems to most of us they should be. A mil does not mean to them what it does to you and I and 29 other franchises.
Well why should Lee be looking for anything less than Burnett’s 5yr/82.5mil contract as a start? Lee is left-handed and is just plain better than Burnett. And both have the same agent I believe. Do the Yankees really want to deal out another contract like that? I made a post a month ago or so where I listed the ages of Yankees players in the last year of Burnetts contract and it wasn’t pretty.Edit: they do in fact have the same agent
how many long term deals and tens of millions of dollars guaranteed to guys who will be in their early to mid 30’s when the deal is up until they realize it isn’t the way to build a team?
Eh? It’s been working pretty well. It’s not a good way to build a team iff you have a short budget.
That’s potentially 8 guys who will be making big money and maybe Hughes and Chamberlain depending on when they hit arbitration not to mention anyone else New York will /have/ to have over the next 3 years. Even the Yankees have a limit.
Probably. But I don’t think they’re very close to it. “He costs a lot” is not a valid reason for NY not to sign Lee. If he demands crazy years, that would be. But they could always just jack up the salary for shorter years.
If you read the Joel Sherman article, it´s much less definate than Tim summarizes it as. It´s basically all Sherman´s suggestions, beliefs, wishes, and biases. There is nothing concrete at all in Sherman´s piece.
I dont see the Red sox just stepping in and getting LEE, their system has taken a hit this yr, Westmoreland for obvious reasons, Casey Kelly they wont trade and he’s over hyped anyway, Lars Anderson has done nothing outside of 18 games at AA this yr, tazawa, Bowden, Kalish, reddick all down….what do they have close? if they did they wouldnt be using darnell MacDonald, Eric patterson, Bill hall to fill in….M’s supposedly want a catcher than they dont want Montero who is a DH/1b, minor leaguers have run wild on him, he’s not a C….. As a met fan, I feel they should go for it, determine who they can center deal around, Mejia or Flores and add a mid level guy or two if necessary …and do it, Lee is not signing an extension, draft picks at their price and risk ( most dont make it and also if signed by a top 15 pick team they get screwed)are not all they are cracked up to be, Mets hope they win & he enjoys NY and NL and mets win giving them a fighting chance against the Yanks checkbook.
How are Kalish and Lars down? Sure they struggled in AAA but that is expected after moving up a level from AA where they raked (albeit small sample size for Lars but it is a small sample size for Kalish in AAA where he has struggled his first 13 games). Sure they aren’t really ‘close’ but you named 4 guys in AAA already. And after the Sox set Bowden’s mechanics back to what they were before (they changed them) he has pitched better and he never had a high ceiling to begin with. And Casey Kelly is now overrated when he’s just in his first full season of pitching in AA and is still 20? Me smells bias.
I like KAlish, think he could be a decent MLB OFer, to say Lars’s stock is not down can only be a redsox fan bias, I think kelly is a good prospect but Sox seem to think he’s untouchable, but he doesnt throw all that hard and may have trouble missing bats in MLB and being an true ACE, thus maybe a bit overrated in my opinion. ANyway not tryingto say Mets system is better, Sox have a ton of lower level, draftees that were considered hard signs w/ big upsides the few years, just saying dont think sox can step in and cherry oick whomeever they want esp. w/ Kelly off the table
I agree with most of that now except for the fact Lar’s stock has to be up since it was at about 0 last year. He already jumped on the Sox’s top prospects list because after seeing a guy who was abysmally bad in AA last year atleast show an 18 game improvement has to bump his stock up from nothing because he was a highly touted guy in the past. And I also think Kalish has more potential than you are giving him but that is probably my bias lol
I agree with most of that now except for the fact Lar’s stock has to be up since it was at about 0 last year. He already jumped on the Sox’s top prospects list because after seeing a guy who was abysmally bad in AA last year atleast show an 18 game improvement has to bump his stock up from nothing because he was a highly touted guy in the past. And I also think Kalish has more potential than you are giving him but that is probably my bias lol
Butting-in here just because that’s a pretty negligent scouting report on Kelly. Sox weren’t forced to develop him as a starter; he projected as a solid regular SS. They chose the starter route because of his ceiling there, which is very high.
Ask Cliff Lee if FB velocity is a problem when you have plus movement. =P
Plus I think the scouting report was that he would take several more years to develop if they wanted to make him a SS and even then he wasn’t that special. Pitching was just the best route for him in both aspects.
Not meant to be a slight against Kelly, just b/c I think his ceiling may be more solid #2 than an ace, I think mejia’s ceiling is an ace but he’s much less likely to reach that ceiling and could end up a dominant reliver, or flame out before becoming anything. I think Kelly, young already in AA, commands several pitches well, athletic, talented has an extremely bright future and Kalish being a solid MLB OFer is not a slight either and Im saying Lars stock is down from a few years ago and even from early this season when people were back on the band wagon, he’s def lost a couple of bandwagon jumpers since then….all in all my point being Sox couldnt just jump in and take Lee at anytime, esp considering now way they incl. Kelly.
Kelly is ranked #10 by KLaw’s latest mid-season ranking. He doesn’t have the ceiling of an ace (at least by what I have read) but his floor is high so there’s that.
I like KAlish, think he could be a decent MLB OFer, to say Lars’s stock is not down can only be a redsox fan bias, I think kelly is a good prospect but Sox seem to think he’s untouchable, but he doesnt throw all that hard and may have trouble missing bats in MLB and being an true ACE, thus maybe a bit overrated in my opinion. ANyway not tryingto say Mets system is better, Sox have a ton of lower level, draftees that were considered hard signs w/ big upsides the few years, just saying dont think sox can step in and cherry oick whomeever they want esp. w/ Kelly off the table
How are Kalish and Lars down? Sure they struggled in AAA but that is expected after moving up a level from AA where they raked (albeit small sample size for Lars but it is a small sample size for Kalish in AAA where he has struggled his first 13 games). Sure they aren’t really ‘close’ but you named 4 guys in AAA already. And after the Sox set Bowden’s mechanics back to what they were before (they changed them) he has pitched better and he never had a high ceiling to begin with. And Casey Kelly is now overrated when he’s just in his first full season of pitching in AA and is still 20? Me smells bias.
Theo isn’t trading a significant portion of a farm he’s long coveted — that would be sold low right now anyway — for another starting pitcher. Even if he might in other seasons, not this one. The longterm plan had this built-in as an iffy year and that’s definitely what it is. He might be willing to shore up the pen or even make a splashy transaction if something long-term fits, but renting makes even less sense for him this year than it otherwise would.
Unlike the Mets and many others, the Red Sox have the budget and the development system to have a shot at the playoffs – and thus the WS – year after year. Accordingly, they have significantly less incentive to trade away pieces they’re developing for a short-term shot. Their future is more certain than most.
Theo isn’t trading a significant portion of a farm he’s long coveted — that would be sold low right now anyway — for another starting pitcher. Even if he might in other seasons, not this one. The longterm plan had this built-in as an iffy year and that’s definitely what it is. He might be willing to shore up the pen or even make a splashy transaction if something long-term fits, but renting makes even less sense for him this year than it otherwise would.
Unlike the Mets and many others, the Red Sox have the budget and the development system to have a shot at the playoffs – and thus the WS – year after year. Accordingly, they have significantly less incentive to trade away pieces they’re developing for a short-term shot. Their future is more certain than most.
He’ll be a Yankee, sooner or later. It wouldn’t surprise me if they got him this year (who gets knocked out of the rotation though?) but I expect him in pinstripes next year when one of two things happen
1) Javy leaves via FA
2) Andy retires
If the Yankees win this year, say goodbye and thank you to Andy.
If A-Rod and Tex start hitting, a bat isn’t a HUGE need. Appreciated, sure…but not necessary.
I don’t see Andy turning down another 10mil if he had a good year this year. Even though he is pitching over his head he must be feeling good about himself and not many people go out like Mussina.
I think Andy makes the All-Star team this year and if he keeps pitching well and wins another ring, I think that is enough for him to walk away. He’s said he wants to spend time with his family but if he wants a shot at 250 or 300, maybe he’ll keep it going.As far as the Yankees, I don’t think they’ll mind having him back to anchor down the #4-5 spot moving forward at all.
I wish Mussina would have stayed another year and gotten his ring. The Yankees sure could have used him last year, especially in the post-season. But Moose is happy post-baseball, so good for him.
I don’t see Andy turning down another 10mil if he had a good year this year. Even though he is pitching over his head he must be feeling good about himself and not many people go out like Mussina.
I can’t say I want the Yankees to win a title this year, but it would sure be a great way for Andy to wrap things up. A brilliant season at this age and another ring. That’s going out on top.
Joel Sherman. Stop making suggestions. They are bad. Thank you. the Yankees made Montero available because, last year, both Lee and Halladay still had more than a year left on their contracts. That is not the case now. I know that wasn’t the case with CC and the Brewers, but, unlike the Brewers, the Yankees don’t need to overpay for a pitcher in order to make the playoffs. We just need some good veteran bats off the bench and another reliever. Our starting staff is just fine.
Yeah, that was evident last night……..
Yes, do cite ONE instance where a pitcher going on, what, 10 days rest, which I think is a first for Hughes, having trouble locating his pitches. Spot on, my friend.
The only starter in trouble right now is Burnett.
well Pettite does have a xFIP near 4.00 and Vazquez still hasn’t showed me anything. I do think Hughes is the real deal though.
I have you check Vazquez last 6 starts?
Yes. One came against Baltimore another against HR or die Toronto and 4 came against the same NL teams he had a ERA under 3 against last year. Nothing that impressed me there. And his bad start during that stint came against the Twins.
I’m pretty sure that the Yankees paid Pettitte to have an ERA near 4 and eat lots of innings, the fact that his ERA is so pretty is just gravy.
I don’t mean he won’t be worth the money I just mean he is probably going to regress obviously
I bet Hughes makes the AS game?
Yeah, that was evident last night……..
Joel Sherman. Stop making suggestions. They are bad. Thank you. the Yankees made Montero available because, last year, both Lee and Halladay still had more than a year left on their contracts. That is not the case now. I know that wasn’t the case with CC and the Brewers, but, unlike the Brewers, the Yankees don’t need to overpay for a pitcher in order to make the playoffs. We just need some good veteran bats off the bench and another reliever. Our starting staff is just fine.
If the Phils can admit they made a mistake they should offer JA Happ and John Mayberry for Lee. Both are cheap, minimum salary players who are ready for the majors. From what I read Seattle is looking for lefty starters and outfielders so this should be a fit. Lee can take Happ’s place in the rotation and give the Phils a top of the rotation that no one can rival.
Makes no sense. Happ is a CHEAP, far more than quality starter who is young. Happ is a future All Star. Mayberry has pop and is at the point in his career where he will only get better if he plays every day. His average is around .270 in AAA, the Phillies wanted him to cutdown on his strike outs. I get the feeling he may be one of the replacement answers to Jayson Werth, so I dont know how they would feel about dealing him. And also I dont get the feeling that there is much interest in Mayberry, his ceiling tops out at a good player, not an All Star.
If the Phillies were somehow stupid enough to trade Happ, then how would they afford to extend Lee? Happ isnt even making 500k.
Not going to happen, but I think a three-way deal that sent Lee to the Yankees and Vazquez to the Mets would actually make quite a bit of sense. Javy’s biggest problem is being a righthanded flyball pitcher in Yankee Stadium, and he was born for CitiField. The Yankees wouldn’t need a negotiating window for Lee, since they’re the Yankees, and can afford whatever he wants. And the Mets can probably afford to resign Vazquez if they want to. A combination of Montero and some of the Mets pretty-good prospects ought to be fair for the M’s.
I’ve tried to read through most of the comments and believe it or not, there are quite a few intelligent ones. That being said, there is a high probability that there are ongoing discussions by multiple GM’s concerning a three team trade, with Lee winding up in the Bronx. I hinted at this a few days ago and I do believe, that there is a good chance of this. The Yanks are a persistent organization and they do give their players a chance. Not so sure they give up on Javy so easily. He does have great stuff and is incredibly durable, however Javy to the Met’s has always made a lot of sense. Javy to the Mets, Mejia (Mets), Adams (Yanks) + 1 or 2 lower level from Yanks and Mets. Lee to the Yanks. I think Cashman could build a nice package with people not named Montero and Romine. Fill in the blanks from here…
Also another thing concerning the Yanks. AJ Burnett isn’t going anywhere. He is not being swapped for another “bad contract” as this was discussed on here yesterday. Most people probably don’t want him. He is fine. He’s had a bad month. Big deal. I am Yank fan and I’ve had to sit through it. He is highly talented pitcher who is not all that old yet. He is ideally a 3/4 guy and he will come in very handy for the Yanks over the next year or two. Is he being paid too much? Yes, but it is what it is and there are many others that we could single out as being much worse based on value to production. I only bring this up in a Cliff Lee thread since there probably is a 90% chance Lee winds up with the Yanks whether it be in 10 days or in the winter. CC, Lee, AJ, Hughes, Brackman or Betances. I do believe Pettitte hangs it up after this season. It maybe a mutual thank you. Right now the Yanks need BULLPEN help and asap! I’m thinking Chan Ho Park could be traded back to an NL team. He is not that bad, but certainly not Yankee material..
I really think the Twins are willing to give up Ramos in a Cliff Lee deal. Its the other players that are holding up the deal. IMO the Twins will only give up an additional triple A pitcher and a single A player and not any more. I think the Mariners are asking for a lot more at this point. Its a no lose situation for the Twins. Just hold out and wait till the Mariners demands come down. For some reason the Mariners seem to want Ramos really bad. The more days that pass the less they can ask.
Who needs to scout Cliff Lee? He’s been around enough that teams shouldn’t need to do any scouting on Lee. He’s a great pitcher. Now they just need to decide if they want to mortgage future maybe stars for a current one.
I really think the Twins have the best shot at getting Lee and here is the biggest reason: they don’t need Ramos! The Mets want Mejia for the future (he was up this year), the same for Montero with the Yankees (Posada isn’t getting any younger). Ramos is too valuable to not stay at catcher (where he has great potential with his defense) and he is blocked by the best catcher in baseball.
In addition to not needing Ramos, they don’t really need Duensing, Swarzak, Bromberg, etc because they have a bunch on pitching prospects at all levels. Not to mention 3 SPs in their current rotation under team friendly contracts/in arbitration years.
you do know their 3rd best prospect is a catcher? I think they want arms and outfielders…plus Ramos really isn’t tearing it up right now in AAA (batting .219)…Despite this, even as a Phillies fan, I’ve been saying if the Twins get Lee, they will be tough to beat.
I do realize that Adam Moore is down on the farm for the Mariners, but he is also 26 years old and isn’t with the big club yet. He isn’t the “blue chip” prospect that most consider Ramos to be.
If they want an OFer, the Twins have those too… Revere, Morales, Benson. I am pretty sure that Hicks is off limits.
If Ramos is out of the equation, an offer of Revere and couple pitchers (Swarzak, Duensing, Bromberg…) would be fair.
I do realize that Adam Moore is down on the farm for the Mariners, but he is also 26 years old and isn’t with the big club yet. He isn’t the “blue chip” prospect that most consider Ramos to be.
If they want an OFer, the Twins have those too… Revere, Morales, Benson. I am pretty sure that Hicks is off limits.
If Ramos is out of the equation, an offer of Revere and couple pitchers (Swarzak, Duensing, Bromberg…) would be fair.
you do know their 3rd best prospect is a catcher? I think they want arms and outfielders…plus Ramos really isn’t tearing it up right now in AAA (batting .219)…Despite this, even as a Phillies fan, I’ve been saying if the Twins get Lee, they will be tough to beat.
As big of a hypocrite as this makes me, (I was a supporter of the decision to move Lee at one time), I think that Ruben Amaro is going to make a play for Lee again. He’s not stupid. He knows that if the Mets make a move to get Lee, he’ll have to respond. When there’s no pitcher on the market that can equal a valid response… you stop the Mets from getting their guy. I’m not sure about the Mets, Yankees, Twins, etc., but in my mind, the Phillies have the best prospects to make a trade for Lee, and Ruben knows that this team has to win now. Jack Zdunerick (sorry for the name butchering. =__=) wants outfielders and pitching. The Phillies DO have prospects, despite the common belief that they didn’t, hence the reason they traded Lee, and even more specifically, they specialize in… *drum roll*: pitchers and outfielders. The Mariners could choose from a group of:
Phillipe Aumont, P
JC Ramirez, P
Trevor May, P
Jared Cosart, P (Who’s on fire in the minors)
Scott Mathieson, P
Brody Colvin, P
Tyson Gillies, OF
Anthony Gose, OF
Domingo Santana, OF
And there are other prospects, slightly less touted than these guys. And then, of course, there’s the kicker. Injuries kill a team and force them to do desperate things. Do injuries force Ruben Amaro to trade Domonic Brown to the M’s. I mean, he is EXACTLY what they’re looking for. He could be the second coming of Ken Griffey Jr. there. (Okay, a little dramatic, but you get the idea.)
In my eyes, if Ruben is going to trade Brown, Lee can be had for Domonic Brown and a young gun like Jared Cosart. If the deal’s not sweet enough, the Phils’ have prospects like Scott Mathieson and BJ Rosenberg who throw flames out of the bullpen. The Phils, in my mind, have the best pieces to (re)acquire Cliff Lee.
And I forgot to mention other big names that the M’s could look into, like Jonathon Singleton, 1B, who’s tearing up the minors and Sebastian Valle, C, when it comes to offense.
They are also really high on Cosart and May, doubt they will trade them…Also, if they go after Lee, they will attempt to sign him and that means Werth is gone and they are compromising their balance and leaving them exposed to strong LH pitching…esp. late in the game
Depending on how the market shapes up in the offseason, I believe that Werth could remain a Phillie. If he walks, they would likely have to platoon with a combination of Mayberry/Francisco/Brown. Which wouldnt be the worst thing because they are capable, inexpensive, and lets face it, if Utley, Rollins, Victorino, Ibanez, Ruiz, Howard, and Polanco cant get it done without Werth… then well thats just pathetic.
They are also really high on Cosart and May, doubt they will trade them…Also, if they go after Lee, they will attempt to sign him and that means Werth is gone and they are compromising their balance and leaving them exposed to strong LH pitching…esp. late in the game
Man if the M’s got an offer of a deal built around Jonathon Singleton for Lee, It would be hard for them to pass up even though Singleton is a whiles away from the MLB. He does appear to be talented beyond his age and the murmurs about him could be growing louder the next two years. He will be blocked by Howard, which makes me wonder if the Phillies could try and convert him to 3B. Everything i have heard about him is that he is stellar with the glove, so I dont see why making the transition to 3B (which is something the Phillies need in their farm) would be so hard. And even if he wasnt a stellar defensive 3B… lets be real here, his bat is whats going to make him money
Trade Brown? No Thanks. If Werth walks and Ibanez continues to struggle, you then have Fransisco/Dobbs/Mayberry/Gload in the corners…even with Halladay and Lee, we could be the east coast Giants.
I wasn’t suggesting that we should trade Brown, Lol. God no. What I said was that I don’t think that Amaro would hesitate to do it at this point. In my opinion, if Amaro finds that the Mets are close to acquiring Cliff Lee, he will not hesitate to make Domonic Brown available to Jack Z in Seattle. Even if they did make the deal, which if Brown is included, I believe could be done with 2 prospects, they’d have to find a way to resign one of Werth and Lee, and I’d be hard pressed to see them do anything aside from offer him arbitration. Werth will not have nearly as many suitors as Cliff Lee, especially the Yankees (Who yes, I know, are interested in both). The Yankees are sure to offer Cliff an upward of 100MM dollars. The Phillies would not be able to resign Cliff, regardless. Werth, they have a shot at resigning.
Bottom line, unless you can field a team of prospects in the future, the Phillies are in full fledge “win-now” mode, and they aren’t winning anything if Cliff Lee ends up on the Mets.
I wasn’t suggesting that we should trade Brown, Lol. God no. What I said was that I don’t think that Amaro would hesitate to do it at this point. In my opinion, if Amaro finds that the Mets are close to acquiring Cliff Lee, he will not hesitate to make Domonic Brown available to Jack Z in Seattle. Even if they did make the deal, which if Brown is included, I believe could be done with 2 prospects, they’d have to find a way to resign one of Werth and Lee, and I’d be hard pressed to see them do anything aside from offer him arbitration. Werth will not have nearly as many suitors as Cliff Lee, especially the Yankees (Who yes, I know, are interested in both). The Yankees are sure to offer Cliff an upward of 100MM dollars. The Phillies would not be able to resign Cliff, regardless. Werth, they have a shot at resigning.
Bottom line, unless you can field a team of prospects in the future, the Phillies are in full fledge “win-now” mode, and they aren’t winning anything if Cliff Lee ends up on the Mets.
Why not trade Brown? He is batting .324 with 17 HRs (hit one tonight) in AA & AAA combined this year. The man is a machine and will only get more power as he progresses. You’re looking at a 30/30/.300 player. Why would you trade that for half a year when pitching (SP) hasn’t really been the problem?
Why not trade Brown? He is batting .324 with 17 HRs (hit one tonight) in AA & AAA combined this year. The man is a machine and will only get more power as he progresses. You’re looking at a 30/30/.300 player. Why would you trade that for half a year when pitching (SP) hasn’t really been the problem?
Because your hand if forced. Once again, I’m not saying that I think that it is the right move to make, but I think that it’s a move that COULD be made. There are so many factors surrounding a deal like that, but so many factors that have already met Amaro and the Phillies. Let’s face it. Anyway you shake it, the Phillies are a 3rd place team right now. They’ve got a huge problem with injuries, their bench is falling apart, their bullpen is full of inconsistency, and the starting rotation is nothing better than mediocre. The lineup is good when it’s on the field, but even that has gone into slumps, and offense HAS been a problem for the Phils for a good portion of the season. You have to shake things up SOMEWHERE on this team.
When you look at it like this, I can bet you any amount of money, after watching Cliff Lee pitch the way he has, that Ruben Amaro has admitted to himself that he made a mistake by trying to restock the farm system instead of holding onto Cliff Lee for another year. Yeah, Domonic Brown may be tearing it up in the minors, but what happens if he comes up to the Bigs and can’t hit? Period. What if he has 3 bad months on the Phils’ roster, hits below .200, and gets sent back down to the minors? Then every fan will jump off of his band wagon and wonder why he wasn’t traded. Prospects are prospects, and I’ve always live by that. If the deal is right, make it.
I honestly love Domonic Brown. Like you said, the potential is undeniable. Amaro and the Phillies brass knows though, that they have to make a deal to win this team a World Series now. More than 3/4 of this team are in their prime years. If a deal needs to be made to win this team a World Series now, then so be it. If you need to acquire Lee to win a World Series, you do it. If you need to prevent the Mets from acquiring him, you do it. Baseball is just as much a game of chess as it is a sport. It’s about being able to predict what other teams are going to do. Brown may be tearing it up in the minors now, but there’s no guarantee he can do that in the Bigs.
Take Mike Stanton for example. The guy was the second best prospect in baseball. He had the numbers that Brown’s got now in like… the first month of the season. Marlins called him up, looking for a push. Now he’s hitting .217, 2HR, 6BB, 13RBI’s in 70AB’s. The Major League is more than just having God-given talent. Some top prospects can’t crack it in the Bigs. No prospect is a guarantee. Cliff Lee, his skill, and the things that he can do for a team trying to win a World Series… is. If you need to take a risk because your hand is forced, then you do. You could let Lee and Werth walk (again, not something I’d recommend) and have 4 draft picks before the 2nd round. In my mind, you take the proven over the uncertain. Domonic Brown, most likely, won’t be a deciding factor in the Phillies winning a World Series over the next two years. Cliff Lee could be.
Just a final note, I don’t know why you’re trying to make me look like an idiot. Lol. I’m not sitting on a phone right now with Jack Z discussing a deal with him about Domonic Brown and Cliff Lee. I’m just saying that I think it’s something that has to be in the back of Ruben Amaro’s mind, and I wouldn’t mind seeing Brown go, if it meant Lee returning. Hell, I wouldn’t mind seeing a prospect or two go to acquire any starting pitcher, for example, Ted Lilly. Despite what you think, the starting pitching aside from Roy Halladay and 2 or 3 starts from the Ageless Jamie Moyer, the starting pitching has been mediocre, and could use a boost, (a trade) or two (Happ returning from the DL).
Because your hand if forced. Once again, I’m not saying that I think that it is the right move to make, but I think that it’s a move that COULD be made. There are so many factors surrounding a deal like that, but so many factors that have already met Amaro and the Phillies. Let’s face it. Anyway you shake it, the Phillies are a 3rd place team right now. They’ve got a huge problem with injuries, their bench is falling apart, their bullpen is full of inconsistency, and the starting rotation is nothing better than mediocre. The lineup is good when it’s on the field, but even that has gone into slumps, and offense HAS been a problem for the Phils for a good portion of the season. You have to shake things up SOMEWHERE on this team.
When you look at it like this, I can bet you any amount of money, after watching Cliff Lee pitch the way he has, that Ruben Amaro has admitted to himself that he made a mistake by trying to restock the farm system instead of holding onto Cliff Lee for another year. Yeah, Domonic Brown may be tearing it up in the minors, but what happens if he comes up to the Bigs and can’t hit? Period. What if he has 3 bad months on the Phils’ roster, hits below .200, and gets sent back down to the minors? Then every fan will jump off of his band wagon and wonder why he wasn’t traded. Prospects are prospects, and I’ve always live by that. If the deal is right, make it.
I honestly love Domonic Brown. Like you said, the potential is undeniable. Amaro and the Phillies brass knows though, that they have to make a deal to win this team a World Series now. More than 3/4 of this team are in their prime years. If a deal needs to be made to win this team a World Series now, then so be it. If you need to acquire Lee to win a World Series, you do it. If you need to prevent the Mets from acquiring him, you do it. Baseball is just as much a game of chess as it is a sport. It’s about being able to predict what other teams are going to do. Brown may be tearing it up in the minors now, but there’s no guarantee he can do that in the Bigs.
Take Mike Stanton for example. The guy was the second best prospect in baseball. He had the numbers that Brown’s got now in like… the first month of the season. Marlins called him up, looking for a push. Now he’s hitting .217, 2HR, 6BB, 13RBI’s in 70AB’s. The Major League is more than just having God-given talent. Some top prospects can’t crack it in the Bigs. No prospect is a guarantee. Cliff Lee, his skill, and the things that he can do for a team trying to win a World Series… is. If you need to take a risk because your hand is forced, then you do. You could let Lee and Werth walk (again, not something I’d recommend) and have 4 draft picks before the 2nd round. In my mind, you take the proven over the uncertain. Domonic Brown, most likely, won’t be a deciding factor in the Phillies winning a World Series over the next two years. Cliff Lee could be.
Just a final note, I don’t know why you’re trying to make me look like an idiot. Lol. I’m not sitting on a phone right now with Jack Z discussing a deal with him about Domonic Brown and Cliff Lee. I’m just saying that I think it’s something that has to be in the back of Ruben Amaro’s mind, and I wouldn’t mind seeing Brown go, if it meant Lee returning. Hell, I wouldn’t mind seeing a prospect or two go to acquire any starting pitcher, for example, Ted Lilly. Despite what you think, the starting pitching aside from Roy Halladay and 2 or 3 starts from the Ageless Jamie Moyer, the starting pitching has been mediocre, and could use a boost, (a trade) or two (Happ returning from the DL).
Trade Brown? No Thanks. If Werth walks and Ibanez continues to struggle, you then have Fransisco/Dobbs/Mayberry/Gload in the corners…even with Halladay and Lee, we could be the east coast Giants.
No way you trade Brown given their outfield situation in the next 2 years, I dont think its a stretch to compare him to Griffey. Ive watched the kid play, and thats who comes to mind.
May and Cosart arent going anywhere.
I highly doubt the M’s would want Aumont, Ramirez, or Gillies back, and the M’s want talent that is close to, if not ready, for the bigs. Mathieson is the only one in that group that appears ready for the bigs. So I dont think the Phillies could get a deal done. They could, however, deal some of these pitchers or out fielders and not miss anything. They have some pitchers down in A ball that are poised to be promoted soon. Nicholas Hernandez is in low A, but he is DOMINATING everyone there.
I too was one of the supporters of moving Lee. I understood the reasoning behind it and it makes sense. Unfortunately they made the deal thinking that they were going to have Halladay, Hamels, and Happ all going strong. While Hamels started rough, he has been pitching real well since May. Happ is the missing piece, the Phillies uncertainty of his availability is what makes them go after Lee. If he was healthy, we arent having this conversation.
No way Lee goes back to Philly and all u Yankee fans thinking thed Mets will do a 3 way deal with u are crazy……the Mets want Lee, The fans want Lee, no way the Mets allow the guy they covet to go the Yankees in a deal that involves them…..especially forf Vazquez….I don’t want the Braves or Yankees unwanted trash………The Yankees may get Lee, but the Mets won’t be involved with it.
I didn’t have time to read the whole thread so I skipped to the end and read your comment. Boy, I thought you were kidding when you said Yankee fans suggested the Mets give up Mejia to help the Yankees get Lee and then accept a very inferior Vazquez back in return. That’s got to be the height of delusion. The Mets would NEVER do that. The two teams rarely trade with each other to begin with, and in the rare instances they do, it’s only to do a mutual salary dump or exchange low-level non-impact players. They certainly won’t do a deal to help the Yankees get Lee. And the Mets certainly won’t give up Mejia only to get Vazquez back.
I didn’t have time to read the whole thread so I skipped to the end and read your comment. Boy, I thought you were kidding when you said Yankee fans suggested the Mets give up Mejia to help the Yankees get Lee and then accept a very inferior Vazquez back in return. That’s got to be the height of delusion. The Mets would NEVER do that. The two teams rarely trade with each other to begin with, and in the rare instances they do, it’s only to do a mutual salary dump or exchange low-level non-impact players. They certainly won’t do a deal to help the Yankees get Lee. And the Mets certainly won’t give up Mejia only to get Vazquez back.
No way Lee goes back to Philly and all u Yankee fans thinking thed Mets will do a 3 way deal with u are crazy……the Mets want Lee, The fans want Lee, no way the Mets allow the guy they covet to go the Yankees in a deal that involves them…..especially forf Vazquez….I don’t want the Braves or Yankees unwanted trash………The Yankees may get Lee, but the Mets won’t be involved with it.
Dan Haren to hte Rangers for Martin Perez,Justin smoak and Derek Holand
Dan Haren to the Mets for Omar Minaya
Joel Sherman really shouldnt be paid any attention to. In spite of his position at the Post, he has shown time and time again that he really doesnt understand how trades and baseball in general works. He just likes throwing names out there and making ridiculous suggestions.
Joel Sherman really shouldnt be paid any attention to. In spite of his position at the Post, he has shown time and time again that he really doesnt understand how trades and baseball in general works. He just likes throwing names out there and making ridiculous suggestions.
I don’t think the Twins trading away prospects for a rental is a good move. I doubt they’ll have the money to sign him when he hits free agency. Sounds like a Sabathia to the Brewers kind of mistake to me.