Under the new CBA, teams that sign the remaining Type A relievers will not be forced to surrender draft picks, a source tells Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter). The teams that sign those relievers and certain other Type A free agents will not forfeit draft picks but the teams that lose those players will still receive compensatory picks (from Twitter).
This means teams can sign Ryan Madson, Francisco Rodriguez, Heath Bell, and other top relievers this offseason without penalty. The measure is not retroactive, however, meaning that the Phillies will still surrender their first-round pick for signing Jonathan Papelbon. For a full list of this offseason's free agents, including their Type A/B designation, check out MLBTR's free agent tracker.
Furthermore, the new CBA will do away with the Elias rankings altogether starting next season, Rosenthal tweets. Under the new system, the top free agents will be subject to compensation if teams make them qualifying offers north of $12MM.
This could put Kelly Johnson back on the board for the Tigers.
This setup appears to be only for Relief Pitchers, not position players
It’s also for some position players. I accidently posted in the wrong forum. There are two of these posts for some reason. This one does not mention the position players.
assuming you’re talking about the elias rankings going away, yes it does. but that won’t impact johnson because that change won’t take effect until next year
This might sound dumb, but what constitutes a pitcher when signing a free agent. What if Albert Pujols pitched in a blowout. Could he then qualify as a relief pitcher and then not have to command a draft pick?
POSITIONS AREN’T DETERMINED BY STATS
ALSO
WOULD A TEAM ALLOW THEIR BEST PLAYER TO PITCH ONLY TO LOSE A DRAFT PICK?
You are missing the point by so much.
WHAT DOES IT SAY ON THEIR BASEBALL CARD?
It says 3B on Miguel Cabrera’s 2008 card but he played most of the games at 1B.
P.S. There is only room for one Bleacher Creature on here.
ZZZZZIPP WAS NOT SPEAKING IN THE PARTICULAR.
You spelled your own name wrong.
nothing more official
I think @JacksTigers:disqus might have been referring to this: “The teams that sign those relievers and certain other Type A free agents will not forfeit draft picks but the teams that lose those players will still receive compensatory picks.”
I don’t know what constitutes those “other” Type A free agents though; is it certain positions, or is it borderline Type A’s, or at MLBs discretion somehow, or who knows what else it could be?
That is exactly what I was referring to. This is what Ken Rosenthal said:
Top Type As – Pujols, Fielder, Reyes, plus former MVPs Ortiz, Rollins and others – still will carry draft-pick compensation this year. All remaining Type A relievers – Madson, K-Rod, Bell – will NOT be subject to draft-pick compensation this off-season. Teams that sign those relievers, and certain other Type As, will not forfeit picks. Teams that lose those players will still get them.
New rules take effect next winter. Elias rankings gone. Top FAs subject to comp if teams make them qualifying offers north of $12M per year. To those asking whether #Phillies will still lose their first-round pick for signing Papelbon, the answer is YES. #Phillies, however, still stand to gain top picks if they lose Madson and Rollins
Read the title carefully:
Teams Signing Type A RELIEVERS Won’t Forfeit Picks
I posted in the wrong forum.
Well there’s always a chance that Kelly Johnson might convert to Closingism.
Cheap throw away line, but I figured I would try.
Naw he’s going to re-sign in Toronto
I am not so sure…we know how AA doesn’t like to lose draft picks signing free agents…and…technically….Jays lose pick(s) when signing Johnson
…and there goes the Padres excuse for letting Bell walk. Now there is no question why they’ll fail to sign Bell – they are cheap! Not sure I agree with this, it puts the small and mid market teams at an even bigger disadvantage as they won’t receive compensation for players they simply can’t afford to sign. I’m guessing Bell winds up in Boston, which I think is a mistake for him. He stands to give up more runs in that park.
I think its good it will force more trades around the league because teams wont be able to recieve compensation via Free Agency so they will have to trade their final year players before the trade deadline.
The small and mid-market teams never actually benefited from compensation anyway, it was always the same teams: Toronto, Boston, Texas, Tampa…
The Padres, Pirates, and Royals of the world never received anything.
lol tampa is a large market now?
They’re not, but I was just emphasizing that the teams that get all the comp picks are really the teams that make it their mission to. Should have phrased it differently.
the Rays benefited by letting their players walk.
Boston benefited by letting some walk and by acquiring rentals at the deadline, then letting them walk.
You do realize that most of the time it took good minor league talent to acquire those mid summer acquisitions in the 1st place? Where do those people fit into your equation?
I can see many relievers in the upcoming agreement getting removed from most types of compensation. Tampa just let their relievers walk each year. That is how they would amass their draft picks in large numbers and the winter of 2010/11 was a bonanza of Type A/B’s on their end, only 1 can think of the did not offer arbitration to was Wheeler, the reliever certain to accept, while the rest they offered, players denied and they collected that bounty of 8-9 top 100 picks.
You need GOOD players to benefit.
So the Padres and their six picks (in the first round and comp round) in this most recent draft haven’t received anything? Good to know…
Padres will still get a compensatory sandwich pick. While I’m bummed San Diego couldn’t capitalize on Bell before the new CBA was unveiled, it really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for teams to be losing first-round picks for a player who will pitch fifty-odd innings. Furthermore, as much as I like Bell’s candid nature and general love of San Diego, the last thing the Padres need right now is their closer eating up one-fifth of their salary when they have much cheaper options available.
I think it’s a compensatory first round pick for this year, not a sandwich pick. The signing team doesn’t give up a pick, but the losing team still gets their pick this year, if I’m reading this right.
Interesting. I read elsewhere in here that teams are no longer losing first round picks for signing Type-A free agents. Assuming you have a normal draft (i.e. 30 picks), you then account for free agent signings, where the team that lost a free agent after offering a deal of $12 million or more gets the signing team’s pick position (but the signing team doesn’t lose a pick, they are just shuttled to the end of the first round), which now will push the total number of pick positions above thirty. Am I reading this right?
I still think it would be best for SD to let Bell go; they would still get the comp picks, it’s just that the other team wouldn’t be giving up any.
Also, Bell stands to give up more runs in any other park not named Petco.
Granted there’s a difference of ~12 IP, but his 2011 home/road splits would beg to differ.
One years sample size isn’t enough to make that determination on, especially a relief pitcher’s sample size, and especially when you cut it in half and start talking about splits. But point taken, I was exaggerating when I said “any” because clearly there are other pitchers parks out there, but the point is that pretty much anywhere he goes is going to be less of a pitchers park than Petco.
Well thanks for the corrections; it actually got me curious to check his career home/road splits, and with the exception of more longballs on the road, Bell’s numbers show a better pitcher out of Petco. Obviously there’s volatility to consider when dealing with relievers, but surprising to me at the very least.
Yeah, giving up more homers on the road isn’t surprising, but pitching better away from Petco kinda is.
Poor Phils
And let the bidding begin…
Well, now the Phils look utterly foolish. And Boston got pretty lucky.
Was it really luck though? I mean, I would have to imagine that the owners had a pretty good idea about what was going to be in the new CBA, so maybe they were just waiting it out. That would make the Phils already signing Papelbon look more foolish though, so who knows.
Thanks Ruben
Yeah from the Phillies standpoint this is BS!
Yeah. It’s a bit of a sucker punch, but hey that’s what the Phillies get for being so hasty. It was no secret that the owners were in the midst of negotiating a new CBA.
right. and other than the marlins, we haven’t heard much about any other team making serious offers for relievers. they jumped the gun quite a bit
Josh Byrnes just punched a wall, and Jed Hoyer just broke out laughing.
Talk about changing the rules in the middle of a game….
No, under the rules that were in effect at the time that they signed Papelbon, they’d lose a first round pick. Any time a team has jumped the gun before the decision to offer arbitration (or now offer a $ 12 million contract) was due, the signing team automatically gave up the compensation. This is no different.
Granted the Phils signed Paps before the tender deadline. My point was about the changing of the rules regarding compensation. Now apparently, even if another type A (Madson) is offered arbitration there is no potential round one compensation for the team losing a player.
That is not the case. Teams losing Type A free agents will be compensated the same way. The only change is that teams that lose SOME Type A free agents will not have to give up a draft pick.
I think you are missing the point of the article – that a team that signs one of these free agents will not compensate the team that loses the player. This is different from prior off seasons. Type A free agent loses were compensated by the signing teams first round pick if in the bottom half of the round or by their #2 pick if in the top half. Plus a supplemental round pick.
“The only change is that teams that lose SOME Type A free agents will not have to give up a draft pick.” Losing teams never gave up picks, they received extra ones.
I mis spoke. The first part of what I posted is correct. The second part should read “The only change is teams that SIGN some Type A free agents will not have to give up a draft pick” I am intimately familiar with the process.
I think you miss the point. You are speculating that there are further changes that have not yet been announced.
Ken Rosenthal: “Teams that sign those relievers, and certain other Type As, will not
forfeit picks. Teams that lose those players will still get them.”
For a team losing a Type A free agent, nothing changes. For a team signing some of the Type A’s (including the remaining relievers) no draft pick compensation is necessary.
good! Elias rankings are terrible.
AHAHAH PHILLIES! You operated under the assumption of losing the pick, you should be fine.
Really weird that it’s not retroactive, but I guess this benefits my team so I’ll take it? Still really weird though.
Getting rid of the Elias rankings might not be terrible, though. I was never a huge fan and this pretty much lets the teams decide how much they really want the player, I guess? I wonder if they only become compensation-worthy if they sign with a team that offers them a $12MM contract or just if ANY team does? (Maybe that’s not even an issue…)
Also, I assume this means we’ll see the Sox making offers to Ryan Madson pretty soon xD
still don’t want madson or bell, but thrilled that we won’t give up that first-rounder (i can’t see them signing a cuddyer or a willingham, and beltran’s not going to be offered arb)
I’m not really thrilled with most of the relief options out there, but we need someone with experience to be there so that if Bard can’t handle it there’s another option. I’m not sure who would be best, honestly. It’s kind of a craps shoot, and they’re almost certainly going to sign one of the big relief arms, so I’m glad it won’t cost a pick now.
I will be really surprised if there isn’t a riot in Philly by the end of the week… seriously, either keep compensation for the entire offseason, or ditch it altogether.
I don’t think it effects us, to be honest with you, the Phillies get most of their talent rounds 3-20. (Domonic Brown, Trevor May, Michael Bourn, Jarred Cosart, Anthony Gose, Vance Worley, Lou Marson, etc).
I’d be livid if I was in the San Diego front office though. Who knows what guys they turned down thinking they’d get a 1st and a Comp pick for Heath Bell.
The only offer I remember coming to surface was Wieland/Erlin for Bell (they got both in the Adams’ trade). It’s a substantial loss, but not a terrible one.
You’re exactly right. This is bull changing the rules mid off season. Hey why don’t they decide to stop giving homefield advantage in the World Series to the All star game winner in September, that’ll teach ’em. Then next year they can change it back to the way it is after the All star game when they see which league wins the game. This may be the dumbest thing Selig has ever done.
While I love the fact that this benefits my Red Sox re: Papelbon, shouldn’t this set-up go into effect starting next offseason? Doesn’t seem quite right to have free agency start under one set of rules and finish under another.
The Phillies (The only team really affected by this) has no one to blame but themselves. They knew the current CBA wouldn’t expire until December and everyone here who was aware of that was questioning why Amaro moved so quickly on Papelbon when it was wlel known the rules may change.
i feel this just continues to help the free spenders and hurts the teams need to draft well to do well
Riot for what? A #31 draft pick?
That #31 pick could have potentially turned out to be a substantial piece of a future trade. I ask for you to ponder about what the future holds.
There’s not that much difference between #31 and a supplemental pick. It might be a blessing in disguise given their ability to find talent late in the draft, considering the luxury tax on draft picks.
i appreciate your optimism, but characterizing the loss of a first-rounder as a blessing in disguise is really pushing it
It’s #31 overall, it’s essentially a supplemental round pick anyway in addition, it’s $1 million more they can spend later in the draft where the high school talent that falls through the cracks will reside. Instead of one potential all star, they could draft 2.
EDIT: I still think it was stupid on Ruben’s part, but it’s not a huge deal. Maybe blessing in disguise is the wrong way to put it but I can’t see them pushing the luxury tax on picks, so it potentially could be.
The first round pick, in the scheme of things for them isn’t a huge deal because they don’t go overslot for their first round pick, so they essentially draft supplemental round talent in the first round anyway.
A first round pick is a bigger deal for teams like Boston and Toronto that take advantage of the picks/their draft budget.
Wouldnt that be the 32nd pick? Toronto have two first round picks (ie: not signing tyler beed)
I saw 31 somewhere, you might be right though, I haven’t looked at the draft order recently.
The last pick in the first round would generally be #30, Toronto having two picks would make it #31, so unless someone else has two picks (they could, I don’t know) the last pick would be #31.
for teams that draft well, a #31 draft pick can be a big deal. recent players taken at the end of the 1st round:
2011 mikie mahtook (ranked 21st in baseball america’s top 200)
2010 justin o’conner (top 15 prospect in a top-3 rays system)
2009 brett jackson (cubs’ top prospect)
2008 casey kelly (centerpiece of adrian gonzalez trade)
2007 andrew brackman (former top yankees prospect)
31st pick can be great for teams that spend well. You can expect one 15th to 20th ranked (Baseball America) player to be available because his agent let it be known they expect a huge signing bonus.
This year, 17th ranked Daniel Norris was drafted 74th overall because his agent communicated they expect to receive $4 mil for a signing bonus. However, Norris signed for $2.5 mil.
It’s about time.
That is all.
Sucks for the Phillies, if they had just waited a couple of more weeks they wouldn’t have had to give up their pick for Papelbon. Anyways, sucks for them.
I still feel that the forfeiting of draft picks should still happen to all players, but only for 2nd round picks and onward.
However, I’m wondering how Type B free agents are evaluated now that the Elias rankings are gone.
per this post, elias rankings aren’t gone until next year. going forward, compensation will only occur when a player signs for more than $12M per year
After reading about it it sounds like the way it will work is that the team that is losing the player has to offer a $12M contract and be turned down by the player to receive any sort of compensation. It would replace offering arbitration, as well as getting rid of the need for a ranking system.
Edit: from ESPN “Teams will have to determine whether they make a qualifying offer for a free agent at a one-year guaranteed salary based on a formula. That number is likely to be upwards of $12 million, making it highly doubtful teams would use it on players who aren’t superstars. If the player rejects the offer and signs with another team, the signing team loses its spot in the first round of the amateur draft and moves to the end. Teams will no longer lose a pick for signing a premium free agent.”
The measure is not retroactive, however, meaning that the Phillies will still surrender their first-round pick for signing….. Is this even “Constitutional”? Believe me, I am not a big fans of the Phillies and even less of a fan of Amaro, but this doesn’t exactly seem fair to me.
It’s so fair that it hurts
Yeah but, K Rod and Madson are both Boras cleints.
Boras had a hissy fit when the Sillies signed Papelbon.
It’s now possible that K Rod and Madson will get more money, which is a help financially to both Boras and the players he represents and that’s nice. However, it doesn’t really help baseball. Is Selig placating Boras and if so, why?
Its fair cuz it hurts the phillies.
Baseball aint fair. Just ask the PIrates, Padres, Orioles etc.
Hahahaha! Some of that unfairness is the Orioles doing! Angelos firing or not renewing good help. Refusal to take a chance. Refusal to pay players what they are worth.
As for the Padres.. only if they had gotten Cody Ross instead of the Giants in 2010. As for the Pirates… I just don’t know..The Orioles however, a lot of that is their own doing (the powers that be in “Charm City”.
Having an incompetent FO and miser for an owner (Pirates) or an incompetent controlling owner (Orioles) is “unfair”? No, thats just being stupid. Look at all the top picks (Top 5-10) the Pirates have had in the last 15 years…how many have panned out…how many guys have they missed on? That’s just terrible scouting and that’s on them. As for the Orioles, Angelos had a cash cow in the mid 90s in Camden Yards and gave up a ton of dumb contracts instead.
AA is going to sign EVERY reliever now
I’m sure before this AA wouldn’t have cared giving up the draft picks, hes stock piled enough that he can give up a first round pick… It’s the money / year’s the pitchers want that’s going to make him weary.
But now he no longer gives up a draft pick and can cirumvent the money issue with contracts that have lots of incentives and options.
^This^.
AA is a magician he will make the relievers sign without knowing what happened, lets just hope they do well this year
Believe me, AA is a master of his trade. I just hope he doesn’t give another BJ Ryan type of contract (which I know he won’t).
AA the Jedi – “These are the contracts you’re looking for”
He’s stated he doesn’t like incentive-based contracts
I really hope he does, but that doesnt garuntee anything. Look at last year and yes i know that this year the quality is there.
WOW the Phillies got SCA-REWED!!!!
It’s a dumb move on Ruben’s part for not waiting for the CBA to be signed, knowing it could effect draft pick compensation this year, but it’s not a HUGE deal considering the new restrictions on the draft, the fact that they’ll get a pick if Rollins walks, plus compensation rounders for Madson and Rollins.
Given their ability to find blue chip prospects late in the draft like Domonic Brown, Jarred Cosart, Trevor May, etc. There’s plenty of first round level talent that falls through the cracks.
Doesn’t take Ruben off the hook though, terrible move on his part.
if those 3 pan out, I’ll agree with you. Brown hasn’t lit the NL on fire yet…
Jarred Cosart got them Hunter Pence. My main point was those guys are just as good as first rounders.
good point
Lefty and Brian. Just shows the Commish hasn’t lost his touch. Red Sox get a pick for Papelbon, and don’t lose one when they sign Madson. Nothing like a little intoxicating Bud helping out the Sawx again. Special rules for special friends. Watch out Cubbies on the compensation for Theo!!!!!!
When it comes to Friends of Bud, it’s like watching professional wrestling.
this wasn’t selig’s decision. i suspect you’re about as familiar with the details of this process as you are with “ryan madison”
I stand corrected on the typo, and have now edited for clarity’s sake. As for the comments about Bud’s favoritism and cronyism (and he has more buddies than just John Henry), I’ll stand by those. He does have a real history of treating organizations in a disparate way depending on ownership. And, a couple of observations about DISQUS, and the reply and editing function. When you post a reply, it is shown on this board, and then sent in that form as an email to the original poster. But, when you edit, as I have above to correct the spelling of Madson’s name, the original is permanently changed, so the rest of this group does not see the original language. So, if one had a desire to send a particularly insulting and personal response to a poster, but wanted to appear more tempered in public, you would hit “reply”, post, then immediately edit. This way you could trash someone directly and privately (because you disagree with them), but no-one else would know. Something tells me I’m not the first to experience this. However, I expect that it will be my last time on this board. I’m not fond of personal abuse.
I can feel it coming. Bud is gonna get us Garza! Lets step back for a minute. Papplebon for Madson and a late first rounder sounds fair to me.
So does this mean Cuddyer won’t cost a draft pick? Technically, he was a reliever for one game.
MLB is punishing the Phillies for handing out such a stupid contract.
Selig is more of a drunk than LaRussa if he is serious about this.
Yeah whats up with the Cards. They get the drunk out of the dugout and they interview a junkie (Francona). The Oxy Man Can!
MLB should have punished them after the Howard deal.
No need, Howard will be punishing phils and their fans for the next half decade, as his days of punishing balls (well; at least baseballs is over).
hahahaha “as his days of punishing balls (well; at least baseballs is over)”
you won’t see any sympathy from me for phi..
You won’t see any sympathy from me for your unfortunate grammar.
oh your right, i forgot we were in english class..
I don’t see the issue either.
philadelphia phillies: victims of premature inkulation
But now he doesnt need to give up anything! Money is only concern and he can circumvent that by a contract with huge incentives.
edit: DAMN IT DISQUS, this isnt where i intended for this post to go.
Yay for the Red Sox.
Looks like only 6 to 9 of the Type A free agents would require their
new clubs to give up a draft pick to sign them, this year. Pujols,
Fielder, Reyes, Rollins, Papelbon, Ortiz, and maybe a couple more
players would require their new clubs to give up a pick.
The other relievers like Madson, Bell, Dotel, and players like Kelly
Johnson do not require compensation, but their former clubs will receive
a pick.
There are 21 Type A free agents this year. 9 of those are relief pitchers. The system was broken. Looks like maybe eight or so of those Type A’s will require their new clubs to give up a draft pick, and they only move to the end of the line if I’m reading this right. (So, the team with the last pick loses virtually nothing)
hahahaha, I hope the Red Sox’s pick from the Phillies end up being a hall of fame player
hahaha thatd be awesome
Now let’s go after Huston Street, Sign Ortiz, re-sign Johnson, and trade for Prado and Jurrjens.
So i guess the Philly’s have pudding on their face?
It seems hard to believe that the powers that be in baseball would allow this to happen. Satrting the free agency period with one set of rules and changing it half way through, doesn’t seem right. Doing this next year is fine, but this year the rules should remain status quo. Lets face it Rosenthal has been wrong many times before.
What about free agent pitchers that have split 50/50 of their service time as a reliever and a starter?
The elimination of compensation this year doesn’t apply to just relievers, but all the remaining relievers are in the group that will not require the club that signs them to give up a draft choice.
Compensation group: Pujols, Fielder, Ortiz, Papelbon, Reyes, Rollins, maybe some more.
No compensation group: All other relievers: Bell, Madson, Oliver, Dotel, K Rod, Saito, Cordero, Capps, Kelly Johnson, Beltran
Not announced yet: Willingham, Cuddyer, CJ Wilson, Oswalt, Ramon Hernandez.
We could guess that Wilson is in the elite group and the others aren’t but we can’t be sure of that. Which ones would you make a $ 12 million offer to?
Now Hoyer’s Blunder in not trading Bell last season is complete. Even if they offer Bell arbitration, all the Padres can get is a sandwich pick and then only if he gets at least one season of $12 million.
Hoyer screwed the pooch totally. Sure glad he is gone. Will miss Mcleod though.
sounds like collusion to me
since fa’s have already been signed this rule should have taken effect next year, this sounds like collusion between bud”time to go”selig and the boston red sux
Once again, the only aspect of the free agent compensation system that is changing for this year, based on what has been reported, is that SOME of the Type A free agents- a group which includes all remaining relief pitchers- will not require their new clubs to give up a draft pick as compensation.
The former clubs of these players will still receive the exact same compensation that they would otherwise have received. What Boston receives for Papelbon does not change under this agreement, nor would it change if he were in the group of relievers that did not require compensation. Next year, the system changes for everyone completely.
This change is one that was demanded by the MLBPA as part of the collective bargaining process. The players also demanded an increase in the minimum salary, and that the number of teams in each division be evened out. The owners wanted to limit spending on draft bonuses and they wanted hGh testing. They all worked out a compromise.
Compensation for Papelbon was done under the old deal. To expect a retroactive change to benefit one club is unreasonable. The Phillies get what they bargained for when they signed Papelbon.
Unless there are other changes being implemented immediately that have not yet been reported, everything else in the current compensation system remains the same for this year. The arbitration offers must be made by Nov 23, and players have until December 7 to accept or decline.
Players that will still require compensation this year include Pujols, Fielder, Ortiz, Reyes, Rollins, Papelbon, and some more. I’d guess that CJ Wilson is in that group.
Players not requiring compensation include all other relievers (8 of them) plus Kelly Johnson, Beltran, and Ramon Hernandez.
We don’t know about Cuddyer, Oswalt, and Willingham.
I’m just taking what has been reported and not reading anything else into this.
Hope this helps. And hope I’m right.
just glad the Phil’s got screwed
This is just a small step in an even bigger scheme in my opinion. By the 2013 season we could be looking at baseball with a whole bunch of different sets of rules. Draft Pick trading, minimum draft pick salaries, Post-season expansion, regular season contraction, Elias ranking wiped out, HGH testing, division realignment, and Oakland, Kansas City and possibly Tampa Bay relocation. Baseball is evolving before our eyes once again, as it does every 2 decades or so.
phillies got screwed here. Now they dont hv a 1st round pick unless they lose Rollins which i dont want to happen.