In today’s column, Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe wonders if the Red Sox will succumb to fan pressure and re-sign Jon Lester. Lester turned down a four-year, $70MM offer from the Red Sox in spring training and other clubs will almost certainly offer six- or seven-year deals if he reaches the open market. Boston, of course, doesn’t want to go that far. “If that’s your philosophy you can’t make exceptions or it will be viewed as a joke,” said one American League general manager. “If you vary from it, that sends a weak message to the baseball community, agents etc., when it comes with dealing with other players. I think the players themselves need to know where you stand as an organization, and if you keep deviating that sends the wrong message.” Here’s more from today’s column..
- The Mariners don’t mind dealing for Rays ace David Price without an agreement in place for a long-term deal, but that’s not the case for everyone. The Cardinals are interested in Price but would want a financial commitment, a major league source tells Cafardo. Cafardo cautions not to rule out the Giants, who also have had interest in Ben Zobrist.
- The Phillies have been discouraged by what they’re hearing from other teams on Cole Hamels. The Phillies consider him their biggest trade chip, but will hold on to him if they don’t get what they consider a fair deal. The Red Sox sent their top pitching scout to watch the hurler before the break and the Phillies have scouted Boston’s major and minor league teams all season. One major league source said if the Phillies get a taker on the full contract and they get three top prospects, he’s gone, and Hamels, according to another major league source, wouldn’t mind.
- Joaquin Benoit is one of the most sought after relievers on the market but a Padres official tells Cafardo that they won’t just give him away.
- Chad Qualls has resurrected his career with the Astros and teams are calling on him, according to a major league source. Houston left-hander Tony Sipp has also drawn interest.
- A.J. Pierzynski, who cleared waivers Friday, has told agent Steve Hilliard that he would like to continue playing.
The full contract AND three top prospects? Does Amaro think every GM is Kevin Towers, lets get serious here.
He does think that.
The other GM’s may think RAJ is a “pushover” due to the ridiculous low return trades he has made. Now he is playing hardball with a legit ace and maybe setting the bar too high. Every team in rebuild mode needs a few “stars” to build around. I doubt Hamels goes anywhere. I just hope RAJ doesn’t price AJ, Byrd etc. too high, that is my big fear.
He’s playing hardball with every player.
and that scares me
Why? If there’s one player we can afford to hang onto, it’s Cole, because he will still be valuable by the time we’re competitive again.
I’m more scared of getting rid of him for a Lee-type return.
I would rather keep Cole as well. what scares me is RAJ taking too hard a stance after the debacles of the Lee, Pence trades etc. i.e trying to make up for past mistakes and asking for too much for Byrd, AJ etc and mot making any deals now or in the offseason
Why would you want negotiations to start any other way?
Also, I have not heard anything about him asking for too much for Byrd or AJ. Byrd is the one scaring Seattle away by demanding they pick up his option in advance and talks for AJ are said to be preliminary. No mentions of what either team is asking.
And when do you think the Phillies will be competitive again? How you answer that question completely dictates whether Hamels needs to be moved for young talent or not.
He needs to be fired. I can’t think of a good reason to keep him around.
I think he will be, especially if he fails to make beneficial deals.
That is a bit nuts, Hamels is great and all, but I wouldn’t empty my farm to get a pitcher in his 30’s on that sort of contract. I think they would get quite a bit back if they were willing to eat a significant chunk of money.
That is a bit nuts, Hamels is great and all, but I wouldn’t empty my farm to get a pitcher in his 30’s on that sort of contract. I think they would get quite a bit back if they were willing to eat a significant chunk of money.
I’d like to meet the GM who wouldn’t give Hamels a 4-year, $88 million contract if he were a free agent this winter.
You’re not going to get the prime years of an established, top of the line starter for that little risk unless you grow him in your farm yourself.
Can we stop pretending every large contract is an albatross? This is the way of the market now.
It’s not all about the money, it’s the prospects they want in return PLUS shedding all of his contract. Sure, shoot for the moon and see if someone bites…but if that’s the opening salvo in any discussions with him I would be walking away. Not worth it.
Now if you’re going to tell me that you’ll eat half his contract and you want three top prospects, I get that. Or if you want us to eat all of his money and you want a top prospects and two B prospects with high ceilings, sure.
So, you don’t think Hamels is worth 4 years, $88 million.
And you would rather pay a package of 80-90% of what Hamels would cost to get half or one and a half (at best) years of a similar quality pitcher who upon completion of his contract would demand even more years and money than Hamels is signed for?
I think it’s silly to pretend four years of control of a player is a drawback in a trade.
Like I said, the money isn’t the issue. Prospects, it’s about the prospects. The value (incorrectly or correctly) is at an all-time high right now, especially position player prospects. So it really depends on what type of players Amaro is looking for. Can Hamels get a better deal than the one he has now on an open market? Of course! That’s not really even a question, considering when he signed the deal and the environment in which he signed the deal (before FA).
You can’t ask for both sides and I’m not talking about this from a Yankee perspective, I’m talking about from a general team perspective. Not every team can afford his contract, not every team can afford those prospects. So, all Amaro is doing is limiting his market in a trade in which he can get anything. I rather him simply say he doesn’t want to move him at all if that’s the type of return he is seeking.
He doesn’t have to move him. And he absolutely should rule out suitors if those suitors believe they deserve a discount on trading for Cole because they will be paying Hamels what he is worth rather than half of what he is worth. Players aren’t free and great players aren’t cheap. Even if you trade for them.
Also, the Phillies and Hamels already ruled out low payroll teams through his NTC. It’s not a coincidence every team he must accept a trade to is a big market team.
The Phillies should eat salary in a trade if it’s out of budgetary need. Not because a large payroll team wants to have their cake and eat it, too.
I never said he had to move him. And the Phillies shouldn’t be bailed out of contracts they signed and get a boatload of prospects in the process. I don’t really think a team would give up that much regardless, but it just seems silly to ask for it. But then again all it takes is 1DGM.
You can’t get past the fact that Hamels’ contract is not an albatross. The Phillies are not getting “bailed out of it” and the trade is not a salary dump.
He is compensated fairly for a very productive, top of the rotation starter. The point of trading him would be to bring back young talent that aligns better with the Phillies competitive window.
You seem to think a team that takes Hamels from us is doing US a favor, but they’re not. Taking Ryan Howard would be doing us a favor. Overpayments like those to Howard, Papelbon and Lee should and will factor into trades.
$20 mil per year for an ace’s prime years isn’t an overpayment. It is simply the price of having an ace. And it doesn’t factor into the price of trading for an ace.
I never said it’s an albatross. I’m speaking as a GM trying to acquire him, I would want them to eat some of the money. And of course it’s bailing out a team of a contract when the other team is asked to take all of the money off his contract. That’s $88MM that team now has to spend that it didn’t. Any contract a team signs that is taken off the books is being “bailed out”.
Once again, total money + 3 top prospects (TO ME) = no deal. He doesn’t have to make a trade, he shouldn’t have to feel he needs to make one. I just don’t think that’s an equal return. And Hamel is 30, let’s not act like he is 25 with 4 more years left on his contract.
What is a better value, Hamels for 4.5 years or Price for 1.5 years? If it’s going to cost me the same number of prospects, I go for Hamel.
Maybe it’s a preference thing, but I think Price is the better pitcher. Plus I think most teams trying to trade for price would like to get some sort of financial commitment from him so they can hold onto him long term.
I get that. I’m concerned about the Mariners. I think I would rather have 4.5 years of Hamels than 1.5 years of Prive for the prospect cost. We know how much Hamel is getting paid and Price? He already said he doesn’t want to extend in Seattle. St Louis feels like the right spot for Price. Gets him close to home in Memphis.
I would give up the prospects for price before hamels. Sorry he is good and all but he is not David price. I’d hope they didn’t cost the same in prospects. Price is the better pitcher which in turn should cost more. Just my take a a mariners fan.
Hamels is under control for 4+ years, Price only 1+. There is value in that.
I get that. I’m concerned about the Mariners. I think I would rather have 4.5 years of Hamels than 1.5 years of Prive for the prospect cost. We know how much Hamel is getting paid and Price? He already said he doesn’t want to extend in Seattle. St Louis feels like the right spot for Price. Gets him close to home in Memphis.
The money isn’t the problem. But three top prospects? Unless they mean something different than I do by the term (top-fifty rankings) then that is an overpay. Hamels market value is greater than $90M/4yrs, but not THAT much greater.
It could be he just has no intentions of trading Hamels to begin with. He’s only 30 and signed for 4 more years
Just because he’s asking for something doesn’t mean it’s going to happen.
The Phillies have four years to shop Hamels, why would they just give him away? He’s the second best pitcher on the market and under control through his prime. It’d be insane not to ask for the moon and the stars.
I think they’d eat the money. Just because they say they won’t now doesn’t mean that won’t change if they get the young pieces they need. Personally, I don’t know what a fair offer is. I know Owens would be a must if they made a deal with Boston, maybe even Bogaertes.
Sure, Owens *or* Bogaerts *or* Betts. One top prospect. Then the other two guys would have a lower ceiling. The A’s got two years of Samardzija plus Hammel for ONE top prospect. Not sure it ever makes sense to trade three of that quality for one. (Most teams don’t even HAVE three prospects of that quality.)
Hamels is a bonafide ace and a great postseason pitcher and is also relatively young. Hes worth his contract, and is an absolute difference maker. The price might be a little too steep, but if the phillies are trading him they need at least 2 top prospects
He is also in his 30’s which is where many pitchers really start to slow down. He is also owed more than $100MM, difference maker, but more than Scherzer or Lester?
All three are around the same age, the difference is Hamels has his contract already while the other two will sign theirs this off season. Lester and Scherzer are most likely getting deals that to longer than Hamels and are about the same amount money wise.
In that case, Hamels would be the safer bet. As I also think he’s the better, more consistent out of the three anyway
Exactly. This off-season you have Scherzer, Lester, Shields. People are going to throw more guaranteed money at them than Cole Hamels is getting and there’s no guarantee they sign with you. You trade for a player under contract for four year and that’s a ‘guarantee’ you have their services without participating in a bidding war.
Scherzer already turned down 6/148. Lester is going to take at least 5 if not 6 years(and that’s if he doesn’t return to the Red Sox), and Shields is 2 years older than Hamels and finally hitting FA with a chance for his last big pay day. Even if he signs for $20m a year you’re going to have to come with 4/80 or 5/100 to a pitcher 2 years older than Hamels.
I think Hamels is the best bet there. Lefties have a way of being effective longer and Hamels has never been a guy throwing in the mid 90s relying on heat.
Hamels has trended upward in his last two seasons. His average fastball velocity is up this year, he’s added a cutter and has been able to lean on his secondary stuff other than the change-up. Just last night he threw 6 innings of one-hit, 7 K ball throwing a grand total of 5 change-ups, his bread and butter pitch.
I really don’t think any decline is imminent. And it’d be shocking if the bottom feel out before his contract is up in four years.
He’s 30, this is like the 4th time in this thread said “he’s in his 30s”, you’re being more than a little intellectually dishonest when you say that. It’s very reasonable to assume Hamels can complete the rest of his contracts (4 more years) at the same high level.
Because pitchers in their 30’s are much more likely to suddenly decline or get injured. This same exact thing happened when Verlander hit 30, he pitched in about 20 fewer innings, and his era went up by almost a run.
Addison Russell is in his 20s, when players are typically in their prime but yet, still not in the big leagues. Bust.
I’m sorry, but that is just a useless argument. Are there even ANY mlb players born in 1994 yet?
Paying Lester sends no message other than that the team values it’s homegrown star.
Agree. I don’t understand Cafardo’s logic. As usual.
@RevMurph: Do you want Lester to get a big contract for 6+ years?
He’s gonna get a $144m contract on the open market. BoSox will need to match that to keep him. I project:
$132M 6yr with a Team Option for a 7th year with a $4-5M buyout
I could see Seattle landing him if he hits the open market.
No doubt Cash will go after him hard. And with Ellsbury on board he could make a pitch to him, no pun intended
No, but we don’t have a ton of options. I’d rather have Hamels, but I don’t want to see Lester in a Yankees uniform.
Who wants to see anybody in a Yankee uniform lol
The problem with Lester is, he’s not an ace.
Lester is better than a typical Ace in the playoffs.
The word Ace is largely subjective. He was the number one starter on a World Series winning team. What more does he have to do?
The word Ace is largely subjective. He was the number one starter on a World Series winning team. What more does he have to do?
His stats show that he is worthy of getting paid.
Maybe a Rays-Mariners deal is getting close?
Would love to see it happen. Mariners fans deserve a playoff run. Happy to see Lloyd McClendon doing well.
cant see the Rays just wanting Walker now. His stuff is not as good as advertised. The fastball is flat and he has little command of his change up. The M’s shouldve dealt him when he was a 25 prospect. If was eligible, he certainly is no longer.
When Cafardo quoted an unnamed AL GM that the Red Sox can’t make exceptions, even for Lester, one wonders if that is someone friendly to current management, or someone who would like the Sox not to bid higher so their team could get a shot, or, for that matter, the Red Sox. I would have preferred to see something like “one AL GM who team isn’t likely to bid on Lester in the off-season…” Sounds like more of a message to Lester. Of course, Cafardo might have been talking to Houston….
Why do the Mariners need Price? They have an ace, the ACE actually, a great bullpen and a solid staff. What they lack are bats.
Pitching > Batting almost always in the playoffs.
False.
It’s still standard hitting vs pitching like always.
Only change is from a 5 man rotation to a 4 man
Don’t forget that playoff teams have superior starting rotations compared to the whole league. Then you face the top 4 of that group.
Because they are currently running out guys like Chris Young, Roenis Elias and ? every 3rd, 4th and 5th day right now in the regular season. If somehow these pitchers can keep it together long enough for the Mariners to squeak into the playoffs, they then have a playoff rotation of Hernandez, Iwakuma and ?.
If they add Price, they become favorites in 60% of their remaining regular season games, as opposed to 40%. They also then run out a playoff rotation of Hernandez, Price and Iwakuma. That would give them a huge pitching advantage in any AL postseason series.
Dillon Gee could be had from the Mets cheaper than Price, and has an extra year of control as well. He’s exactly what you need and not the overkill you want.
Because they are currently running out guys like Chris Young, Roenis Elias and ? every 3rd, 4th and 5th day right now in the regular season. If somehow these pitchers can keep it together long enough for the Mariners to squeak into the playoffs, they then have a playoff rotation of Hernandez, Iwakuma and ?.
If they add Price, they become favorites in 60% of their remaining regular season games, as opposed to 40%. They also then run out a playoff rotation of Hernandez, Price and Iwakuma. That would give them a huge pitching advantage in any AL postseason series.
Are the Padres gonna move Headley?
I think it time for the Tigers to sell the farm; I’m tired of Nathan and the bullpen, time to go get a new closer and another bullpen arm. Then try to add a SP move Smyly to the bullpen and then try to get a SS in one of the two above deals (make everyone available expect those on the 25-man roster)
They’re pretty strapped for cash.
No as much as it seems; If Mr. Illitch wants, Mr. Illitch gets.
Did Mr. Illitch want to give Doug Fister away for magic beans?
DD wanted to in effect trade Fister for Nathan (2 years of control, same salary)… pick up multiple prospects (Ray and Krol) and give Fister’s slot to Porcello (who has performed at a Fister level) and move Smyly to the rotation.
The logic was sound… Except Nathan has been horrible… a fact that few anticipated given his 2013.
You’ve used the “Fister for Nathan” logic before. It is most certainly not sound. Detroit shouldn’t have an expensive closer if they need to trade valuable pieces for pennies on the dollar.
I think the jury is still out. Now one of the main reasons they traded Fister was he would not sign an extension because he wants to return to the West Coast. The Nationals tried to get him to sign and he said no. Max could have been trade bait but the Tigers brass wanted to try and get an extension. It was either Fister or Portcello and at age 25, Portcello stayed and the 2yr window for Fisters’ services made him trade bait. Now you can argue that Detroit did not get a good return, but getting 3 cost controlled youngsters, two Major League ready, was a good bet. Ray is slated to take over the 5th starter spot in 2015 and left handed reliever Krol is only 23. In 2016 Detroit will have a starting pitcher, relief pitcher (both at less than $1mill each)) and $$$ to use where ever they need. The National will lose Fister.
Ray and Krol are hardly proven ML players and Fister is having a good year. Neither one is a lock for the 2016 roster with the way they’re pitching right now. The fact that Fister was traded for salary relief shows part of Detroit’s problem. They’re way too top heavy.
I was referring to Lombardozzi (sp?) and Krol but your correct about proven ML players. That is the “time will tell”aspect of trades. Ray(22yr old) and Krol ( 23yr old) have the skills to be ML pitchers as they mature. How many pitchers that age are solid ML pitchers? If you read into my post you see that Detroit was looking past 2014 and did not bring up Fisters’ price tag for 2014 ($7.2mill)-15(approx $10mill). I was not convinced money was the main issue but trying to get younger with more team control. Sure Doug is having a good year and I wish him well but Porcello took his spot and has been as good or better with 40 more innings pitched. His price tag will be similar to Fister but we have an excellent chance to extend. If Fister was still a Tiger it would not make Rondon’s arm well, or JV, Nathan or any of the other bullpen pieces any better. Smily would be in the pen, stunting his growth as a starter. Too much focus on the salary relief aspect of that trade.
Tigers are saving $50,000,000 over 5+ years by trading Fister. That is more than “pennies”.
Robbie Ray does not need to replace Fister. He only needs to be a solid #3 or #4 in 2015 or 2016 to make the deal worth it.
If the trade were simply the rights to Fister for $50MM, most would applaud the move.
and this explains the Dombowski move^ Tigers will make a big move.
He wanted to keep Cabrera (294 mil contract) and Verlander, and possibly sign Sherzer; he got two very good yound arms in return Ray and Krol (Porcello > Fister) that’s what he is bettin on. I don’t doubt a man who has buil;t the Red Wings into a powerhouse, the Tigers in WS contenders every year and owns half of Detroit.
The Cabrera extension was almost universally panned, Verlander fell apart, and the Tigers have no WS under his ownership so the man is hardly infallible.
But you said he was “cash strapped” he is worth 2.4 billion dollars and is building another arena so how is he cash strapped??
I said the Tigers are cash strapped. Do you know how many owners in baseball are billionaires? That doesn’t mean they all have the Yankees/Dodgers payrolls. It’s still a business.
We will see. The Tigers have the 5th highest payroll in MLB (and you said they’re*)
Yea and that’s not likely to go any higher.
Yea and that’s not likely to go any higher.
And how do you know that? Because just last week DD (Dave Dombrowski – President and CEO of the Tigers) said they would do anything to get Mr. I a championship (so tell me who’s your source or is that your opinion) because no one thought they could sign two guys to over 500 mill in contracts over the off-season
You’re right, I’m wrong. The Tigers will trade for Price, Cano, Trout, and then sign Scherzer to a 400 million dollar contract. Whatever it takes.
We don’t need Cano (we have Kinsler) Sherzer will never get 400 million; Price is a possibility especially if we can get Zobrist also; and Trout can keep swimming in Anaheim
sarcasm.
The Giants’ owner, Charles Bartlett Johnson, is worth $8.1 Billion… but the Giants don’t just buy whoever the heck they want… there’s a reason these guys have the money they have… and it’s because they don’t do the things you suggest.
The Giants’ owner, Charles Bartlett Johnson, is worth $8.1 Billion… but the Giants don’t just buy whoever the heck they want… there’s a reason these guys have the money they have… and it’s because they don’t do the things you suggest.
Colon could be had for a minimal return and for a little more, the Mets would probably eat the rest of his salary for this year, which gives you time to figure out next year (11M). He often goes 8 Innings in games, which will help your bp woes, but is erratic. Sometimes he’s an ace, sometimes he’s a 5. If you need an extra bp, Dice K could be had as well, and he too would be pretty cheap. Both are well within the Tigers farm system to get, and would vastly improve the team THIS year.
I agree with going all in to try and push for a WS…. but not with moving Smyly to the pen. Smyly is pitching well and I’d rather not mess with his routine.
He’s pitching well today! His line of (5-8 4.00) WHIP of 1.39, FIP of 4.19 yea that’s outstanding and he’s 4th in losses in the AL
Because losses are a state indicative of how a pitchers doing?
He’s a 5th starter, if he stays at or under 4.00, we’ll be fine. Bigger concerns are bp, SS, and the poor play of Torii Hunter (tho he has been hitting a bit better recently)
Rays haven’t decided yet if they are Sellers. Maurer,Franklin,Wilson,Ackley and Ramirez for Lee and Kendrick,Byrd?
I’m guessing the Cardinals wanting Price to sign an extension is related to Goold’s speculation yesterday that Taveras could be traded. If the Cardinals could lock Price up at a reasonable rate, they’ll include Taveras. That would be quite exciting and disappointing.
I just don’t see why the cardinals need price.
He would certainly be an upgrade over joe Kelly, but at what cost?
I would rather trade for zobrist or nobody.
cards are really solid. They don’t really need to upgrade anything to be seriously competitive.
There’s really no point in trading for Zobrist. It would likely mean Wong to the bench. Matheny has proven he cannot play multiple quality players at one position to the teams advantage.
I wouldn’t be surprise the Tigers be a dark horse for Hamels. They can easily take the contract on and they have a few spare parts the Phillies might be interested. Tigers can move Smyly or Verlander to the pen to improve the pen. Verlander needs a break from last year injury and dead arm. I think it is a done deal if the Tigers can put in a clause players to be named later.
I disagree
Tigers already have 2 highly paid pitchers in JV and Sanchez. Still have bp needs(and Smyly is pitching well… no need to mess with his routine). And are already at 150mm payroll.
Not to mention are raises this off season, resigning or replacing Vmart and Hunter, hopefully finally addressing the bp.
I don’t see the Tigers having any discussion on Hamels. Granted, I also said no one would take on Fielder’s contract
Trading for Hamels already replaces Max next year and Hamel would be cheaper. I doubt that will replace Hunter due to surplus of OFs. Smyly is going to the pen anyway come playoffs. You are hitting two birds with one stone. Getting another starter and increasing your bullpen depth. Getting a relief pitcher is expensive for what they are worth. If he is not traded by July 29th, I would think DD at least make a call.
Verlander to the pen? The Tigers aren’t paying him 20m to pitch 1 inning per game.
I think the Cardinals have enough .267/7/26 guys on their current roster; no reason to trade away young, cost controlled talent for a redundant piece.
there’s a Price/Zobrist to Giants blockbuster coming soon.