The Tigers issued an unorthodox statement yesterday morning:
The Detroit Tigers have made a substantial, long-term contract extension offer to Max Scherzer that would have placed him among the highest paid pitchers in baseball, and the offer was rejected. As we have reiterated, it has been the organization’s intent to extend Max’s contract and keep him in a Tigers uniform well beyond the 2014 season. While this offer would have accomplished that, the ballclub’s focus remains on the start of the upcoming season, and competing for a World Championship. Moving forward there will be no further in-season negotiation and the organization will refrain from commenting on this matter.
As reported by ESPN's Jerry Crasnick later Sunday, Boras countered with a statement mirroring that of the team:
Max Scherzer made a substantial long-term contract extension offer to the Detroit Tigers that would have placed him among the highest-paid pitchers in baseball, and the offer was rejected by Detroit. Max is very happy with the city of Detroit, the fans and his teammates, and we will continue negotiating with the Tigers at season's end.
The Tigers' last offer to Scherzer was reported by Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports to match Cole Hamels' July 2012 deal with the Phillies: six years, $144MM.
The legendary Peter Gammons asked rhetorically this morning, "What did the Tigers achieve painting their Cy Young as greedy?" As we ponder the team's decision to make their frustration public, here's more on the situation…
- Scherzer's side suggested to the Tigers that $144MM is an "old market price," reports Jon Heyman of CBS Sports, with the new market being Clayton Kershaw's $215MM deal and the Yankees' $175MM outlay for Masahiro Tanaka.
- Scherzer turns 30 in July, and his age plays against him in comparisons to megadeals for younger starting pitchers, writes Yahoo's Jeff Passan. Passan argues, however, that Scherzer's workload is relatively light at 18,643 pitches thrown in in his career. Passan feels that "The ceiling is now Kershaw. Boras doesn't traffic in floors." Further, the writer feels the Tigers' statement was "classic grandstanding and reeked of insecurity."
- The Tigers' cozy relationship with Boras is no more, writes Morosi. "Boras did not have direct dialogue with [owner Mike] Ilitch during the Scherzer negotiations," writes Morosi, in contrast to the Prince Fielder negotiations in the 2011-12 offseason.
- ESPN's Jim Bowden feels Scherzer should have overruled Boras and accepted the Tigers' offer, which Bowden feels is fair market value by way of a Zack Greinke comparison. Bowden credits Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski for drawing a line in the sand on Scherzer.
- Tim's take: the Tigers made a reasonable bid, though not one at the level typically required for a star Boras client to eschew free agency when it's so close. The public statement was a misstep, seemingly made out of frustration. The Tigers' offer would have Scherzer tied for the fifth-largest contract for a starting pitcher, and doesn't seem to account for inflation of salaries since Hamels signed in the summer of 2012. There's no word that the Tigers included an opt-out clause, which was included in all the bigger deals: Kershaw, C.C. Sabathia, Tanaka, and Greinke. Now, is it actually a smart baseball move to give Scherzer a seven-year deal worth more than $180MM covering his age 30-36 seasons? Probably not.
Solid troll, Boras! Not bad.
LOL @ using Kershaw as a foundation for negotiations. Scherzer is no Clayton, not even a distant cousin.
They’ve been identical by FIP- over the past two seasons. Scherzer’s close, and Kershaw probably took a slight discount to stay with the Dodgers. $200M is very possible.
They are not close at all. Max is 30 years old, has a delivery that had people worried whether he would be a starter long-term when he was a prospect and exactly one year where he was the best pitcher in the AL.
Clayton Kershaw is like 23 or 24, has multiple years of being the best pitcher in baseball, is left handed, and has been a horse in terms of IP.
Kershaw is younger and more proven. I love Max Scherzer, but he’s not Clayton Kershaw.
Kershaw actually just turned 26.
Regardless, he’s clearly better than Scherzer.
Even if Scherzer is as good as Kershaw, he has to prove that by having more than one great year,
FIP- is just about the only stat in which Scherzer has matched Kershaw. Not even the most devoted sabermetrician would argue that Scherzer has been any where near as dominant as Kershaw over the past 2 years.
Also I wouldn’t call securing the largest AAV ever with an op-out after 5 years taking a “discount to stay with the Dodgers.”
FIP- is the most important past performance stat there is. Over the past two seasons, Kershaw and Scherzer have been equally dominant on a per-inning basis.
You cant simply ignore the fact that Kershaw is younger, his career FIP is nearly 1 run lower, and that over the last 3 year Kershaw has averaged 6.1 fWAR per season, Scherzer has averaged 4.5 fWAR. That type of disparity is more than a statistical aberration. FIP-, like any stat, is not a be all end all evaluation of a pitcher you need to look at a collection of stats.
You had to filter by innings pitched because Max has trouble with innings pitched. He broke 200 one time by age 30 and never has pitched a complete game.
What he. does this year will determine what he gets. He just assumed all the risk. We will see if the reward is worth the risk.
great point. He is very confident his 2014 will be as good or better than his 2013.
Even if Kershaw and Max have been equals the last two years, Kershaw is just 26 whereas Max turns 30 this season. Four years is a big difference for a starting pitcher. Kershaw is also a lefty, a more valuable commodity.
No they haven’t. Kershaw is in his own league. And you can’t just isolate FIP and use it as a basis for a large contract. Also consider that in past 2 years, Kershaw has pitched 60+ more innings in that timeframe. Not every players falls exactly on what his FIP says he should be. Some players outproduce it regularly and some never live up to it. To me FIP is a good stat to see if the pitcher’s era was a fluke, or whether he really turned a corner.
Check your stats. I think Max is midway between Kershaw and Hamels the last two years
Anyone can find a stat on any person to support their point of view. Kershaw is younger and has been beyond excellent the last three years. Scherzer is no slouch but last year was his first excellent year.
Except that FIP- is THE per-inning past performance stat that matters. Kershaw obviously has the edge because he tends to throw more innings, but it’s not a stretch to say that Scherzer can get the Kershaw contract with another good season.
It seems pretty clear that after 30 days of negotiations and exchanging offers back and forth, Boras never put an reasonable offer on the table. He was just trying to use Detroit to get the floor raised as high as possible.
Get rid of Boras, Max. You’ll be much happier.
What happens if Max doesn’t have a season like last? Always a chance to happen, he blew up last year – then what? Do we negotiate on 2014 stats, or revert back to that Cy Young year? This is too much.
Good move on Detroits part.
I disagree with Tim Dierkes in that I believe it was a good move to make a statement. It serves as an explanation to the fans, ie those who fuel the revenue, why Max Scherzer wasn’t signed.
Detroit are smart to move on from Scherzer. Let someone else pay for his 30’s.
That being said, I believe Scherzer still has 2-3 great years in him. But not to the tune of 25 mil per year.
As much as I hate to let Scherzer walk, anything above the offer the Tigers put out there would be insane and would more likely than not burn the team in a big way.
Theyll have Scherzer for this year.
And then theyll get a draft pick compensation.
Scherzer wont get any better likely. He’s at his best right now, and it would be bad management to invest in his coming years.
Dombrowski shows how it’s done.
My thoughts are they should move him by midseason, no matter if they are in contention or not. His value may have peaked and I doubt the Tigers would be satisfied with a late 1st rd/sandwich pick basically in exchange for an elite tier pitcher.
That’s insane. The goal is to win a World Series and the Tigers have as good a chance as they’re going to have in years this season. Should the Cardinals have traded Albert Pujols in 2011 instead of only getting draft picks?
Pujols plays/played everyday. He had several years of solid production. He was a proven commodity, something that I feel Scherzer is not. Scherz-dog is only 2 years removed from a minor league stint to “find himself” and posted career numbers last year. The only way his stock will rise is if he sustains/surpasses what looks like a fluke year.
As the injuries rack up around the league, I’d hate to handcuff the team financially for the rest of the decade on the off chance they go all the way this year (with, let’s face it, a team that has definitely been downgraded from the past 2 years). Look at the pickle Texas is finding themselves in. Taking over Fielder’s contract and adding Choo’s massive deal looked like a great way to win now, but with a couple key injuries their narrow window may have closed a tad more.
And everyone needs an ace. (which max is not on his current team (sorry max))
Nobody is going to need him more than Detroit and no one is going to assume his salary and give you something really meaningful in return. They don’t need to dump his salary. They need to keep drawing 3 million.
Why not wait until after the season to make the announcement, though? The way they did it now, it will linger as a story over the whole year. It could be as a way to prepare fans for him to be traded, but it’s hard to picture them doing that now that they’ve depleted depth by getting rid of Fister unless they somehow fall out of contention (which is unlikely).
They would’ve been asked about it the whole season, and fans would have grown angry with the Tigers.
Now they set the record straight and takes charge.
Boras dropped the ball on this.
This was the best possible outcome for the Tigers.
The best possible outcome for the Tigers is Max Scherzer pitching at the top of their rotation for the next 5 years. If this leaking hurts those chances, it was a poor move.
You know what the best PR move is? Winning baseball games. That’s what the front office needs to focus on. Not trying to make their players look bad.
Whose leak because I heard about the Boras leak yesterday before the tigers leak. So did Boras sabotage his client?
JV is still top of the rotation.
I disagree, if he has another good year and he does move on then the fans would be on the FO hard. Now the fans are aware of what was attempted prior to free agency. We made an offer well beyond what he was worth and he rejected it. I’d do a QO at the end of the season and go from there. If he walks so be it. It would be money spent better elsewhere. He says he wants to be here so it’s time to either put up or shut up.
Strange to see such nonsensical reason coming from a cardinals fan. Moz is a text book example on paying for future production and not past.
Tigers can most likely use the 30 mil per year Scherzer wanted in a much more efficient way.
Reactions To Tigers’ Scherzer Statement
I don’t know man, does Scherzer want to play for the Yankees or Rangers?
Who else can afford him?
As a fan I am not really down with paying high ticket prices just so a ball player can get a super huge contract. It’s absurd!
Plus, the he doesn’t even have a complete game under his belt.
If player salaries went down to the minimum tomorrow, the ticket prices wouldn’t change at all. Those are a function of public demand, not the teams’ payrolls.
That’s not entirely true. They will slide up based on it, but they won’t slide down if the reverse happens. Unless like you mentioned the public demand drops. They tend to go hand in hand though because when a team signs a big named free agent the demand tends to go up. They are linked, but not in the way a lot of people think about it.
Scherzer has a case for exceeding Cole Hammels deal but Kershaw’s deal should not be used as a comparison.
Looking at how Max will be turning 30 this year why would you give him a long term contract? I would never go past 35 on a starting pitcher because they lose speed. He is a speed ball pitcher. CC Sabathia has lost speed on his fast ball and is not a #1 starter anymore.
Sabathia is a great pitcher. Can probably be decent enough with less velocity. While Scherzer is living on his high speed and the contrast to his breaking ball.
Scherzer may very well find himself this fall without any suitors.
Sabathia was a great pitcher.
Boras has resorted to trashing teams for not giving him what he wants and calling them cheap. I don’t blame the Tigers for getting out in front of this. Call it grandstanding and insecurity if you must. I call it telling your fans what they need to know.
Surely for $144 million Scherzer could buy Detroit and the rest of Michigan, rename it and still have enough money to live the rest of his life in comfort.
“What did the Tigers achieve?” – Gammons.
Simple: PR value with fans. No one can say they were trying to be cheap.
Wow, that was an easy question.
Is anyone on the Scherzer/Boras side of this? Surprised that a leading analyst would make this statement.
Why does anyone have to pick a side. The Tigers had a number they felt comfortable offering Scherzer to keep him away from Free Agency. Scherzer had a number he was willing to accept to give up his one chance to pick what team he’d like to play for, city he’d like to live in, and allow any team to bid as much as they thought he was worth. The two numbers didn’t match up. It’s called business and neither party is wrong for an extension not getting done. There doesn’t always have to be a “bad guy”
Basically a Pujols/Cardinal redux. Not much different.
The Cardinals never went and made anything public. The Cardinals didn’t try to drag Pujols through the mud even after he signed with the Angels. So I don’t see much similar besides in both cases the team attempted to extend a player one-year from Free Agency and failed..
Because we as fans hold our teams accountable. If in this case Tiger fans thinks the team is low balling to let Scherzer walk than that creates a bad image to the fan base. Knowing the Boras history and his tendency to call out teams who do not give him what he wants the Tigers must have felt they were in line for the next lashing and wanted to be in front of it instead of trying to respond to “The Boras Spin”. Any other agent and none of this is public.
Strikes me as pandering to fans and acting unprofessionally. If I were a Tigers fan, I’d be offended on the player’s behalf. He certainly wasn’t going public with statements like that.
I agree if they lowballed Scherzer.
However, their offer number was so astronomical, and the Scherzer counter number was so absurd beyond astronomical, that the Tigers cannot help but win this PR battle big time.
This is not much different than the Cardinals and Pujols.
I also disagree that the Boras camp does NOT do use “unprofessional PR” themselves.
I have to agree it was pandering, but respectfully disagree that it was wrong. The way Boras comes out and lights up teams to the tune of trying to incite riots in fans, it had to be done. Detroit is completely focused on winning now and we as tigers fans have been spoiled; he would have most certainly thrown Detroit under the bus(which he did first before the tigers made a statement from the timeframe I understand) and knows he can call out the front office to help get his way. I.e. Johnny Damon.
The tigers couldn’t have allowed themselves to look like the bad guys on this one. Especially if DD was true when he said ‘largest contract I’ve offered that’s been turned down”. The fans had to know he tried everything he could, especially with such a strange offseason by Detroits standard. He had every right to call out Boras, especially the way Boras has been selling out teams and the CBA when it was his misguided input that has been costing his players.
Boras crossed the line when he called the Mets cheap and tried to turn their fans against them. Boras’s past behavior left the Tigers no choice but to get out in front of this.
Yeah, that was the first thing that came to mind. For him to ever say in public how a team should be spending his money is overstepping his boundaries as an agent. Perhaps Drew would be a perfect fit for the Mets. But they aren’t going to compete this year, so why spend that money.
If Boras is convinced that his players are such perfect fits, why not offer to pay the first year of their salaries, with mutual options tied to a contract? A car dealer lets you test drive before taking a car off the lot. Boras can put his money where his mouth is if he is so convinced that his clients are perfect fits for clubs.
(note – I know that would never happen, but if he’s going to tell ball clubs how to spend their money, he can be told how to spend his)
Feb 23, 2014 Boras went public with an accusation the Jays ownership was sitting on money that should be spent on improving the club. What makes you so sure the Tigers weren’t next?
“the organization will refrain from commenting on this matter.”
Guessing there’s a bit of a disconnect in the meaning of that word “refrain” in the Tigers’ front office.
The beginning of that sentence reads “Moving forward…”
Yes, I can see that… but the point is “that cat was already out of the bag.”
I think DD wanted “the cat out of the bag” or he wouldn’t have had that statement released. On some level, they probably wanted to proactively quell any speculation for the season about an extension. Maybe it’s to soften the blow of a blockbuster.
The main point they were most likely trying to get across was “We have other things to worry about, for instance win ballgames.”
i dont think id want my team to spend $180MM for a pitchers age 30-36 seasons either.
100% of fans on talk radio (97.1 in Detroit) supporting the Tigers in this face-off.
PR statement worked big time. Tigers are NOT cheap message has been heard loud and clear.
Expect Cabrera to sign in the next week.
thanks for the local report!
Even if they hadn’t put out this statement, the vast majority of fans would’ve had the same attitude about it if they’d just said that they couldn’t work out a deal. The tendency is pretty much always to take the team’s side and consider the player greedy.
Sometimes yes. There are STILL a lot of people upset with the Mets about the Reyes negotiations and how all of that played out.
An expensive deal for Scherzer could cripple the Tigers even if he doesn’t drop off. This team needs to stop adding mega deals when it’s sending away players like Fister for pennies on the dollar to save a couple bucks.
Scherzer has one good year out of what, six, and thinks he deserves a huge payday? No way. Six-years/$144MM is a pretty nice contract, especially when you consider Scherzer is already 29 turning 30 in July and he rejects that? Wow. Don’t think many teams are going to overpay for him. I’m not trying to rag on him here, but what if he’s a one and done case? What if his ERA skyrockets to upper 3’s or low 4’s this year? Does he still think he’s in the same class as Kershaw and King Felix?
My guess is that the public statement on the part of the Tigers is one that essentially says, “We made an effort, but he wants more than we are willing to pay. At season’s end, we will wish him the best.”
I do not expect negotiations to continue. I think the Tigers are done.
I think Scherzer will find out this year what complete games entail.
Atmospherics, and maybe just a little frustration on the part of the Tigers not just in this negotiation, but also the Drew one. Boras isn’t an easy man to deal with. And, just speculation, the Tigers just spent the net equivalent of $76 Million for two years of Boras’ Prince Fielder. Maybe they think they are willing to overpay, but not feel fleeced. Scherzer is no Kershaw, “new ceiling” or not.
This is going to look a lot like it did when Juan Gonzalez turned down 8 years / 140 million from Detroit in 2000 – a gamble which ended up costing him 100 million in career earnings.
I hope the Tigers overpay. But all jokes aside if they want to remain competitive they need to keep him especially after trading Fister.
You’re obviously not a fan of baseball then. When 1 player gets overpaid then EVERY player gets overpaid. It changes the whole landscape for every player. Teams need to collectively get together and refuse to sign players to ridiculous contracts such as these.
The guy had one season deserving of this contract. He should take the money and run. He could repeat, but there also are great odds that he doesn’t.
I knew that Tanaka’s contract was going to be problems for other teams to sign their guys. I am not thinking of signing less than that guy, if I was Scherzer.
i can see scherzer’s point. tanaka hasn’t pitched a single inning in the MLB and scherzer is a coming off a season where he won the cy young and was one of the top pitchers by WAR. i can also see the point in not paying so much for a guys year 30-36 seasons. and also while he has pitched well the last 3-4 seasons, he only had one season that was lights out caliber. last year was the only year he was an all-star or got cy young votes i believe.
Dombroski and Boras acting like children instead of adults.
Scherzer may not have gone public, but Boras has never been one to shy away from discussing the current market in relation to his players in the past. And although I agree that the extension market has changed since 2012, Kershaw’s contract should have set the ceiling for all contract negotiations regarding pitchers. Until someone has the numbers (and age) that Kershaw has on his side, there is no reason for anyone (player, agent or fan) to suggest that a pitcher is deserving of any contract near $31.5 million a year. Verlander’s contract should be the ceiling for any pitcher not named Kershaw. And even then, I’d want to see a stretch of dominance akin to JV’s before offering that.
What’s even funnier is that Boras is saying how it was the Tigers that rejected the offer. If that is true this just became a whole lot messier. Or more fun if you’re a fan who’s going to enjoy hearing more trash talking b/t both sides before he’s traded by July.
No way he repeats. I’m still shocked that he thinks he’s worth Kershaw money. 20 per year is a huge overpay imo.
He could, but IMO he is taking way too big of a gamble. Prior to this year he was more of a #3 starter or worse. Why is he worth that much more than Anibal, and Anibal was 2 years younger going into free agency. He had a fantastic year, but the guy doesn’t have the track record of Hamels/Verlander/Felix/Kershaw. How does he even think he is worth anywhere near Kershaw. 4 years older, not as many innings, not as good, etc.
Only Boras would try and comp Scherzer to Kershaw.
Like you mentioned, so many things Kershaw has going for him that Scherzer does not, mainly age and track record.
I think Greinke’s a better comp for Scherzer and why $25 mill AAV seems fair for Scherzer, IMO.
couldn’t agree more! Besides last year, he’s a #3 at best.
IF the Tiger’s offer really was 6 yrs for $150 mill, then I don’t know why Scherzer would turn that down.
That’s King Felix money and a tad better than Greinke’s contract, in terms of AAV.
My only guess is he really does want to test the market and is eyeing some other locations to play in.
Just wonder if the locations he is eyeing would be willing to go 6 yrs and $150 mill on him in a year?
Eh, this is why I wanted to see the Tigers sign Tanaka and let Scherzer walk after the season.
He doesn’t repeat 2012 or even come close. This was a mistake by Boras.
In small print at bottom of Boras statement:
Stephen Drew has accepted a $4M deal with the Marlins. Nothing to look at.
Looks like Max thinks he is worthy of a contract of 7/190 or someone in that ballpark. I am not sure which teams will have the coffers to give out a contract like that.
Well, I wouldn’t wish it on him, but IF the Tigers were out of the playoff hunt for some reason, it sure wouldn’t bother me if he tore his ACL or needed TJ surgery.
This is only more of the reason I can’t stand Boras. The Tigers made him a very lucrative and legitimate offer, and Boras wants to milk every last penny when it’s next to impossible for a pitcher to stay healthy for the life of that contract.
I don’t hope he gets injured really badly during the season, but I certainly won’t cry about it if he does. Boras is certainly doing his best to ruin the game, again.
Players have a responsibility to other players to get as much as they can, and Boras has a responsibility to get the player as much as he can get. If Scherzer wants to take less its his call. Personally, I would find it hard to walk away from 144 million given the injury risk all pitchers face. Must be feeling pretty good with his arm, which is good news for the Tigers in 2014 anyways
For a pitcher to turn down 144 million and risk blowing their arm out and getting nothing is pretty brave, or foolhardy. Scherzer has had 1 great season, the rest were all good or just league average.
If he has a great year this year I can see him getting 175 for 6-7 years.
Maybe he is tired of living in Verlanders shadow and wants out.
I suspect hard feelings over the Scherzer negotiations are preventing the Tigers from signing Drew. That would be said if true since he really is a good fit for the Tigers, and with the money they will save on Scherzer, they should be able to throw some towards Drew and improve the team. The time to win is now while they have Scherzer, V-Mart and Hunter. You don’t win with a replacement level SS or two
Perhaps it’s the other way around. The Tigers wanted Scherzer, but didn’t want Drew at the price Drew was willing to sign for, and maybe didn’t want Drew at all. There’s consensus that the Tigers made a very large offer for Scherzer–just not big enough to satisfy Boras. Drew they have never been more than lukewarm on, and in fact they have gone out of their way to pick up extra shortstops. They may have tired of the endless “nos” on both, or on Boras insisting that Drew merited whatever he was demanding at the time. It’s human nature to walk away from tiresome people.