The Braves and Orioles discussed a possible Adam Jones trade recently, but talks didn’t progress far, ESPN.com’s Jerry Crasnick reports (all Twitter links). The Orioles wanted Jair Jurrjens, Martin Prado and at least two of Brandon Beachy, Mike Minor, Julio Teheran, Arodys Vizcaino and Randall Delgado. The Braves weren’t interested at that price, Crasnick writes.
Conflicting reports about the Braves’ interest level in Jones emerged yesterday, but it appears some preliminary discussions occurred. Orioles GM Dan Duquette joined Jim Bowden and Casey Stern on MLB Network Radio this week and explained that the Orioles are trying to "build around" Jones. "When you have some good players, other teams are interested," he said. "We're not marketing Adam Jones." However, he stopped short of guaranteeing that Jones would stay put.
That’s a perfectly understandable request if you’ve said your player isn’t on the market. Usually teams have to be blown away in order to change their mind and that type of offer would definitely do the trick
So was it two of that group plus Jurrjens and Prado, or just two of that group? Can’t blame Duquette for trying. I’d think just one of those youngsters plus Jurrjens and Prado would be enough for Dan though.
No way! JJ,prado and one of above? crazy, they can have JJ and someone like sprill,chapman,or redman Jones just isnt worth it.
how is jones not worth it he is a 5 tool player that is proven at the majors
Jones has “proven” nothing except that he has never been above a 2.9 WAR player with marginal defense. Jones and Jurrjens are roughly equivalent players.
If Adam Jones is a “5 tool player that is proven at the majors” then Jair Jurrjens is Cy Young-caliber…which he’s not.
I think the problem with Braves’ fans considering the value of JJ and Prado is they don’t take into account the very real injury concerns that come with both players. Sure, when they’re healthy they’ve proven that they are each about the same caliber of player as Jones or possibly better (depending on the year), but neither has the track record health wise that Jones does and JJ’s peripherals are a bit scary. That said, Jones’ OBP can be off-putting as well.
I think 2 of those pitching prospects plus JJ would get the deal done for the O’s.
He is nowhere near worth that haul
Thanks for supplying a good argument.
Jones isn’t even worth one of those prospects plus JJ. Personally I wouldn’t trade one them straight up for Jones, but I could see the reasoning for doing so.
well jones has hit 26 homeruns he is a gold glover he has consistantly in the 270-280 mark has a good risp has speed and a pretty good arm
derek jeter is also a gold glover.
brett gardner is not.
Almost the exact same was said for Nate McClouth – 26 HR (’08 in AS year), Gold Glove (’08) – hitting around .265 with some speed — and you see how he turned out in Atlanta.
What’s my point? Not everyone turns out to be the superstar based on the stats you’re indicating. Gold gloves are NOT the mark of a good defender, while home runs aren’t the mark of a good hitter. And as for Adam Jones’ All-Star…remember every team, including bad teams, has to be represented in the All-Star Game. One team’s All-Star is a better team’s #7-hitter.
And Jurrjens has 16th best ERA in baseball since 2008 among pitchers with at least 500 IP. One of these things is far more impressive than the other.
Sorry, that’s not worth it with all the interest in both. We held out giving up 1, possibly 2 of our coveted pitching prospects for Hunter Pence who is a more complete player than Adam Jones, so why would be give in now and trade 2 from our starting lineup for 1 guy that has 2 years left before FA?
I’d only consider that trade if we’re talking about Justin Upton.
Voice of reason. You should be the Braves fan representative.
It is when Prado is better than Jones in WAR. Jones is an average AT BEST offensive player. There is no way he is worth 2 decent guys with a lot of ML experience as well as 2 of their 5 prized prospects all of whom have pitched in the majors as well.
Wow… talk about some unrealistic demands. Frank Wren and the group must have had a pretty good laugh about that. No wonder the talks stopped quickly.
The only group of folks who overvalue their players more then Braves fans are Orioles general managers. ^_^
Yankee fans have to be pretty close.
JLAW is such a lamer. The Braves should have at least countered. “how about jurrjens, prado, and three of the above!”
Give them Minor, Redmond, Hicks and JJ Hover and Adam Milligan for A Jones. thats wht they get. Nothing more than that. take it or leave
Pretty easy “leave it” I think.
Not saying it isn’t a fair offer, just that the Os would probably decline.
I wouldn’t give up Mike Minor for him. I would not give up any of the young pitchers for him….he isn’t worth it.
Adam Jones and Nick Markakis are two of the most overrated players in baseball.
How is Markakis overrated? No one ever talks about him.
He meant to describe Markakis as overpaid (will be paid $59.5M through 2015). If it weren’t for his salary, I’d love for him to be a Brave – he’s from Woodstock, GA.
Markakis is why you don’t make long term signings after a player has a massive surge in BABIP, like he did in his 2008 season.
He’s still hitting in the .280s-.290s range. I’m more concerned with the drop in ISO than BABIP.
markakis is probably the most underated in baseball he perenially has 180+ hits he is a gold glover and probably one of the best outfeild arms iin the game
You may be one of the most underrated Orioles haters in posting.
maybe viscaino, sprill, or chapman, but not 2 of the above. or minor and chapman.
This sounds more likely than the garbage yesterday of Prado and Jurrjens being turned down. The Braves will enjoy life without Adam Jones better than life with him minus a kings ransom.
Please not Mike Minor. Putting him in the AL East will kill his fantasy value =(
I like adam jones but unless he starts finding a way to get on base more I think that price is too high. A guy with a career .319 OBP is nothing special.
Laughably high.
This trade between the Braves and Orioles is ridiculous.
Who’s going to be our centerfielder if we trade Jones to the Braves?
It could be Cespedes, but he is a really big question mark, if indeed the Orioles sign him. One major question is can Jim Presley fix that long swing of his by the end of “Spring Training”. Lastly, if I have said it once I have said many times! The Orioles should do a trade with the Marlins. Sign Oswalt and Kuroda and roll the dice that way. Otherwise, we all are wasting our time!
PS Who is the one fanning the flames on this rumor?
The Baltimore Sun is the one fanning the flames. Reporting bogus rumors. What else do they have to report on besides Ripken?
Nah, I don’t think it’s the Sun. One of the writers gave him the MVO Award before one of the final games of the season. Plus, what’s wrong with talking about Ripken, it’s far wrong, it’s far from wrong!
They could also talk about Brooks Robinson as well and that’s far from wrong as well!
Nothing wrong with talking about Ripken. I love the guy and I’m not an O’s fan. I’m just illustrating how little there is for The Sun to be reporting on because of the current state of their franchise.
who cares about cf! you guys would’ve gotten prado(a lifetime better hitter than jones alone), and 3 major league ready starters. orioles trying to ROB the braves
Well they’re not going to just hand him over for Brooks Conrad and a PTBNL either…the whole point of trades is to get as much value as you possibly can.
That’s a ridiculous amount of value for someone who hasn’t gotten past a 3 WAR
Prado and Jones play different positions. It matters.
never hurts too ask. looks like best for both sides to move on. if braves were not going to give up two of that bunch for pence they are not going to do it for jones
AGREED. Move on to actually improving the team maybe?
If I were Wren, I would have considered a package of Prado and Delgado. If they wanted one other piece, maybe Hoover or Gilmartin.
Jurrjens alone would be equal value for Adam Jones. Prado is a better hitter and there is no way you give up a top 50 prospect like Delgado for a marginal player like Jones.
but why would the orioles want jurrjens especially when they are trading one of their best players?
I never said that the Orioles wanted Jurrjens. I was merely pointing out that trade value wise that Jurrjens and Jones are equivalent players. Asking for Jurrjens, Prado, and two of the top young prospects in baseball was ridiculous.
Do you really think GMs look at WAR to determine who is the better player? Jones appears to be trending up, while Jurrgens is falling apart (health wise) lot’s of things determine a players’ value besides WAR.
If that was the case anybody could use fangraphs to be a GM
Jurrjens is falling apart? Because he has had knee issues?
Hard to pitch on one leg…
Jurrjens had surgery on his non-pitching knee and he is 100% now and has been clocked recently in the mid-90’s.
I’d rather have his knee issue than arm/shoulder problems with/without TJ surgery.
If 14 thinks Jurrjens=Jones, and Wren want a ‘Greinke deal’ for Jurrjens, the Orioles should ask for more than a ‘Greinke deal’ for Jones. I don’t see anything out of line with Baltimore’s asking price for a player they don’t want to trade…
Get real, Jurrjens doesn’t offer any value to the Orioles.
A starting pitcher with a long injury history and declining stuff going to the AL East, who by the way is a Scott Boras client and is becoming very expenseive (the reason he’s being shopped) is = to a 5 tool Centerfielder under control until 2014?
(edit)
Jones has the same amount of years of team control (through 2013, not 2014) and projects to earn as much or more through arbitration.
Absolutely ridiculous to think about trading our 2011 1st rd pitcher (Gilmartin) as a throw-in. They’d be getting 3 premium players including 1 former AS. For Adam Jones, what a scrub.
You can’t use the AllStar appearance to your advantage and then call Adam Jones a scrub. He was an AllStar too. Your argument is illogical.
Sorry, I have explained my reasoning why Jones is overrated in other posts and don’t want to have to fully explain myself in posts where it’s irrelevant. I was replying in regards to including Gilmartin in a trade. I can use the AS title if the trade the original poster was proposing included 2 AS (Prado/JJ) and possibly a premium prospect (like a 1st rd selection) for 1 AS (Adam Jones). Doesn’t make sense…even if he exactly fit our need, which he doesn’t.
I’ve said it before…Adam Jones’ numbers, gold glove, and All-Star title make him quite comparable to Nate McClouth before he came to the Braves.
That’s still an overpay.
I would rather have Prado on my club then Adam Jones. Prado is a better baseball player. I’d bench Adam Jones if I had Prado.
Prado is not that good
He had a bad 2011, with the second half largely due to a staph infection. He’s more likely to approach 2010 numbers then 2011, though 2010 might be a career year.
For a LFer, he’s decent, but we’ll need a 3B soon, he’ll be really good there.
Jones is worse.
Nothing against Adam Jones who is a good player but he is nothing special.He is a Mike Cameron clone without the high OBP
Cameron had better defense.
id rather give up minor than delgado
Completely agree. Minor’s 1st rd draft pick status alone can get us more for him than Delgado, while the scouting reports on Delgado are much better. Gilmartin can be our lone southpaw in future rotations.
Gotta keep minor. He’s your only left handed starter
2011 1st rd pick LHP Sean Gilmartin, whom they’re very high on, is whizzing through development leagues on much of the same track Minor was on when he appeared a year after being drafted out of Vandy with a 1st rd selection. From what I read, we’re at a point where if Minor doesn’t pull away from his fellow pitching prospects, we can use him as trade bait and when/if we do need a LHP in the future rotations, we have Gilmartin.
LOL!!! The Orioles are out of the minds to think the Braves would trade TWO of Minor, Teheran, Beachy, Vizcaino and Delgado PLUS Jurrjens and Prado for Adam Stinkin’ Jones. Who do they think he is…..Justin Upton??? The guy is a marginal centerfielder who has moderate power but strikes out waaaaaay too much. He has never even had a 3.0 WAR season.
I like Frank Wren but why was he interested in Jones to begin with? He has reverse splits, meaning he hits right handed pitchers better than lefties. The Braves need a right handed hitter who hits like a right handed hitter. He also has a terrible OBP and his power would likely decrease in a move from Camden Yard to Turner Field. Martin Prado is a better overall hitter than Adam Jones.
Blech….glad this trade got shot down.
Where does it say they wanted that in addition to Jurrjens and Prado?
Sounds more to me like they just wanted Minor Leaguers more than guys who would only be on the team for two years at best, which is exactly what I was saying yesterday.
MLB’s Mark Bowman reported that BAL asked about Jones for Prado, JJ, and “2 premium prospects” meaning the 2 pitchers listed. It’s not listed in this article, but JJ/Prado would be going, if Bowman’s report is true.
Okay, well, that would be insane then.
This is just like everyone freaking out about the Gio Gonzalez rumors…
It’s beyond obvious that the Orioles don’t want to trade Jones. They never said he was on the market, and Duquette has said multiple times that Jones is one of the players he wants to build around.
So, if they don’t actually want to trade him, why wouldn’t they ask for a king’s ransom?
Is this really that difficult to understand?
if they were offered one of minor, beachy, teheran, or delgado for jones, they should have taken it
Indeed.
The point is, they SHOULD want to trade him though. You could cut that return in half and it would still be an overpay. Meant to go to your first one
This isn’t difficult for me to understand. So Jones is available. If you’re taking calls from GMs on a player, they’re available.
Adam Jones isn’t a Dan Duquette acquisition and with only 2 years until FA, I’ll believe that he’s a part of their rebuilding when I see an Adam Jones extension or someone better than Jeremy Guthrie as their Opening Day starter — how pathetic.
I’m not saying that it makes sense.
I would love to see Jones traded for a high upside prospect or two. But it doesn’t seem like Duquette is going to make that trade.
Actually, I have no idea what Duquette is doing. I like the Wada signing and I love the expanded international presence, but I’d really love to know if he thinks the Orioles will be competitive at any point over the next three years. And if he does, I’d love to know how he’s going to make that happen.
And if he doesn’t believe that the O’s will be competitive at any point over the next three years, now is the time to trade Jones, J.J. Hardy, Jeremy Guthrie, Mary Reynolds and Nick Markakis (if you can get someone to take that albatross contract. Too bad Tony Reagins was fired…).
End rant.
Well, if they’re taking fliers on Fielder, then they think they’ll be players sometime soon…or they just need some new coffee table material in the front office.
It doesn’t say plus prado and jj. I think it was just two from that list.
Nope, it was Prado, JJ AND two from that list.
“The Orioles wanted Jair Jurrjens, Martin Prado and at least two of Brandon Beachy, Mike Minor, Julio Teheran, Arodys Vizcaino and Randall Delgado.”
This all solidifies that Jones means much more to BAL than he would with anyone else. If nothing else, that just shows you the mediocrity they’re playing with…they’re not a good match for a trade and they won’t be. Let’s move on.
It might just be possible that you and the other Braves fans like Prado a bit more than Wren does
2 off of that list? GO FISH!
This runs parallel to what MLB’s Mark Bowman wrote about the trade, that ATL never offered BAL JJ/Prado for Jones, but that BAL came back and asked if ATL would trade JJ/Prado and from what his source referred to as “2 other premium guys”…possibly referring to our coveted pitching prospects.
Considering we wouldn’t give those 2 prospects up for Hunter Pence, why would we do that for Adam Jones? We didn’t give up any to get 1.5 years of service from Bourn.
However, it was completely reasonable for Duquette to inquire. But building around Adam Jones?
Might not be mad at a Jones for Jurrjens straight up swap.
Can’t imagine the orioles would that. Jair has an injury history. Also the orioles are trying to build that is why they are asking for prospects not big league guys with only a few years away from free agency.
If the Orioles were serious about building they’d ask for a trade of an overrated Jones for a package led with one of the Braves top pitching prospects. that’d be much closer to reality.
As someone who doesn’t have a horse in this race, I was actually thinking the same thing. Jones isn’t worth 2 on the list above. The O’s are smart for asking, though, and the Braves are smart for saying ‘no’.
That is actually a fair trade. Both have the same amount of MLB service time, both had identical WAR ratings last season, and both even made the same amount of money through arbitration.
If the Orioles were being reasonable there could have been a three way trade. Jurrjens to a team for prospects, the prospects to the Orioles and Jones to the Braves.
Even at that I’m glad there was no trade. Jones is what the Braves DON’T need….Jeff Francoeur part II.
You know I like Braves fans and am friends with a lot of them, but comments like this:
“Jones is what the Braves DON’T need….Jeff Francoeur part II.”Give all of you a bad name.
How is that?
Whatever Jones is to the Orioles, he’s far less valuable to the Braves. He wouldn’t play CF in Atlanta for at least another year, he’d play LF, and as a LF, he’s not as valuable anyways. Besides, Prado can play LF and is better offensively, and has similar service time.
The O’s have already turned down the offer of Jurrjens, Prado, and a prospect for Jones. Jones is gonna be a star, and Jurrjens and Prado can’t stay healthy. For all of these Braves fans that overvalue their own players… sorry. It’s the truth.
If the Braves want Jones, it will take Jurrjens, Prado, and one of those “stud” pitching prospects. They are called prospects for a reason, because they haven’t done anything yet. Heck.. Teheran has been lit up every time he called up.
It’s just the truth.
They may be overvaluing Jurrjens & Prado, but your overvaluing Jones. Jones may have some power, but he strikes out way too much & he has a career .319 OBP. He’ll also be a free agent in 2 years.
You’re right about his K’s.
The point of these discussions are that the Orioles are not marketing Jones. They have no intentions of trading him. The Braves are trying to get rid of Jurrjens and Prado. So the Braves are gonna have to come strong with their offer. There’s nothing wrong with the O’s asking for the moon 1st and then coming down a little. That’s how negotiating goes.
ATL isn’t trying to “get rid” of JJ and Prado. They’re available in the right deal. JJ is coming off an All-Star season and has 2 years remaining before free agency and is affordable. Prado can play multiple positions at an All-Star level and is affordable. If we can’t upgrade by replacing them, then we’re not going to make a deal. It’s not like either are going to FA in 2013…we just want a power upgrade and/or OF assurances if CF Bourn leaves via free agency in 2012. Why is that so difficult to understand?
If they aren’t trying to get rid of them, they should be.
At the right price…yes. They still are a crucial part of our current team. Once Gio Gonzalez is traded and with John Danks signing an extension, who is the best SP available? Edwin Jackson, Huroki Kuroda, Roy Oswalt on a 1-year deal? Would teams rather trade prospects for Jurrjens, who is affordable for the next 2 years, or overpay an inconsistent SP like Edwin Jackson? Jackson will never be better than a 3-4 starter on most every team (BAL, he might be a #1 starter…), but JJ’s first half in 2011 shows he can be a top-tier pitcher. ATL isn’t asking for a Mat Latos-return, but we’re not going to include in a package deal – with starting pitching being a premium right now – for someone like Adam Jones. Why not hold onto Jurrjens, hope that he has a 2012 first half like he did in 2011, build his stock up, then trade him when his stock is highest at the All-Star break? What would a contending team trade for a possible 15-game winner with an ERA around 3.00?
no way no how, that “offer ” of prado and jj and a prospect never happened so get off your high horse and realize he is not worth the ransom sorry bub.
The offer did happen Jeremy. It’s on the Baltimore Sun website. I would post a link, but you can’t post links here. Sorry bub.
braves mlb site states offer did not happen. the two teams just dont match up. Orioles need prospects and braves can get better players than adam jones for their A prospects. im a braves fan and id rather keep jurrjens and prado than have adam jones. i would do minor OR vizc and a b prospect for him, however.
Its quite obvious you’re a Braves fan…silly post.
check any post on here and you will see im a braves fan. also read the posts on here from all the people who are not fans of either and see which angle they view this. Braves had an opportunity to get Pence for two of these pitchers and turned that down. I think you would be looking for a while to find someone who would say jones>pence.
So Im obviously a braves fan..that does not blur the reality that jones is a good player. Not a great one worth 2 blue chip prospects plus 2 all stars. or even worth 2 blue chip prospects alone…back up your comment rather than name calling
Also you miss the following in my post, “Im a braves fan…”
…silly post
according to Mark Bowman:
The Braves expressed interest in Adam Jones. But they did not offer Martin Prado and Jair Jurrjens to the Orioles in exchange for the outfielder.A source with knowledge of the Orioles negotiations disputed a Baltimore Sun report that indicated the Braves were rejected when they offered Prado, Jurrjens and a pitching prospect for Jones.The source said the Braves were told Jones was unavailable when they asked about him a couple weeks ago. The Orioles later called the Braves to see if they would trade Prado, Jurrjens and two other “premium guys” in exchange for Jones.The Braves said they were not interested and the two clubs have not had any recent discussions about these players.
Seriously. Jones isn’t anything special at all. I’d rather keep Prado in Left if Jones were the main piece of that trade…
There is no reason to believe Jones is or will be a star
I like how you completely dismiss Prado and Jurrjens in comparison to Jones. Jones could be a great player very soon, but so far, Prado is the better all-around player, with just as many AS appearances as your “star”. I know BAL hates pitching, but Jurrjens is actually a quality pitcher with 2 years left before he’s a FA — much like Jones.
The reason we don’t want to give up a pitching prospect isn’t because they’re untouchable, it’s because the players on the table (JJ, Prado) are already more than a fair trade that BAL can’t recognize because they wouldn’t benefit them as much as Jones would.
We will trade a stud pitching prospect in the right trade – but with guys with 4 years of control and proven MLB success like A’s Gio Gonzalez, that’s not going to happen very soon.
** And please don’t try and downplay Teheran. I’m sorry Jeremy Guthrie is your opening day starter (again), but bitterness won’t make our pitchers any less good.
Adam Jones is a glorified Nate McClouth when we (ATL) acquired him. He has all those nice mantle pieces (gold glove, All-Star) that mask his ability, while illustrating how important he is to his bad team, such as the O’s.
Please consider that Prado changed positions to LF while also battling to 2 freak injuries that lingered the whole season. It’s really tough to look at his career numbers considering his 1st full season wasn’t until ’08 when he won the 2B job over Kelly Johnson. Prado normally doesn’t miss much time.
Jones is gonna be a star? What makes you say that? Prado and JJ both have higher WARs than Jones, meaning our 2 players are more important to us than Jones is to the O’s. Jones hitting stats aren’t great, striking out a lot for someone you’re asking so much for. Compare his stats to Justin Upton and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
** And sorry if you aren’t impressed with Teheran. He’s started all of 3 games and appeared in 2 more. How could you be impressed with that? Take a look at his minor league stats. And if we doesn’t pan out to be the Pedro Martinez many have compared him to, then we have another 4-5 waiting. We’re not lucky at developing players. He’s no Zach Britton or Chris Tillman, I can tell you that.
I’m an O’s fan and I agree with a lot of the Braves fans in that Jones is a bit overrated. But the Braves generally seem to be stingy in trades. You have to give value to get value. I can understand the Braves not wanting to give up two top young pitchers for Jones, but not even one of them? Most of Jones’ value is not what he’s done thus far, but still it’s about his potential since he’s only 25. The Braves always seem to be one or two players away from competing for the NL East title, and their reluctance to deal top young pitching could be could be a reason why. If you don’t want Jones, fine, but trade some of that pitching for some great hitter. Justin Upton was available last offseason, but you ain’t gonna get him now. The Braves are in it, but they could certainly get better. Go trade for some big bat because though Freddie Freeman and Jason Heyward are good, you never know if they may not end up any better than, say, Mark Reynolds and Adam Jones.
or Adam Jones could end up being “Mark Reynolds” or “Adam Jones”
Or Adam Jones may merely be a Jason Heyward and Reynolds only a Freddie Freeman… Anyway, I think you missed the point of my post, which is about the Braves and trading.
i read that at the start of your post you defend orioles for hanging on to Jones because of his potential..then you justify the braves trading for Jones or another big bat because the braves are relying too much on potential.
I wasn’t defending the Orioles for holding on to Jones. I think they should trade him. I was just saying that his value, whether in a trade or if they keep him, is still more based on his potential than what he’s done so far. The second part of what you wrote, yes, is basically what I was arguing.
While I appreciate your candor, coming from a Braves fan, we are stingy in trades, but who isn’t? I understand that an ideal trade should be good for both sides, but that rarely happens for many reasons. I also have great faith in the Braves player development program – one of the best in MLB, if you ask me – and know that someone coming through our minor league program stands a better chance at succeeding at the major league level than in, say, the Kansas City Royals farm system.
Having said that, please also understand that we’d only be getting 2 years of service from Adam Jones before he hits free agency. Yes, while we would be paying for his potential, we’re also with the risk that he won’t re-sign with ATL and wants his big pay day (i.e. Jayson Werth). Take ATL’s trade as an example: we traded a CF prospect with some MLB experience (Jordan Schafer) and 3 mid-level pitching prospects for 1.5 seasons of Michael Bourn before he hits FA. Bourn is a better player defensively than Jones and because Bourn’s is one of the best basestealers in MLB, you could argue he’s more important offensively than Jones.
We totally understand you have to give up talent to get talent. We have an All-Star, Javier Vazquez to NYY for Melky and prospects. We gave up prospect Adam Wainwright and Jason Marquis for a 1-year rental of JD Drew. We gave up Neftali Feliz, Elvis Andrus, Matt Harrison, Jared Saltalamacchia (and Beau Jones) for a year’s rental of Mark Teixeira. So we get that you have to give up good players to get good players. But from what the O’s are asking for for Jones is even more than the insane amount of talent we gave up for Tex if you consider Prado/JJ a part of the trade, and 1-2 top pitching prospects. How can anyone justify that, especially if Adam Jones walks, and we don’t re-sign Michael Bourn thinking that Jones will be our CF replacement – though he has sub-par CF defense at best? That’s too great a risk and too high a price to pay for someone’s potential. If we want to overpay for someone’s potential, we’d have paid TB the bounty they want for BJ Upton.
And Justin Upton was about as available as Adam Jones is this year – he’s not unless you’re willing to overpay for him. Upton hasn’t signed an extension, so he could be available still if a team is willing to overpay for him.
Great post. I did speak too soon when I said the Braves were always stingy about trades. Frankly, I wasn’t thinking of the rental trades for Teixeira and Drew in what I wrote. I was thinking more in terms of trading for top players who are younger.
I’m not suggesting what the Orioles are asking for Jones is realistic. Not even close. I’m just saying, considering how bad the O’s are, trading him for Jurgens and Prado don’t help the O’s enough long term. If they trade Jones they should trade him for 4 or 5 guys who are strong upside but barely any Major League experince. The package the Nationals sent to Oakland for Gio Gonzalez would be a better fit for the O’s, though the O’s wouldn’t get quite that return for Jones. Gonzalez is more valuable to a team than Jones (depending on the team’s needs), but Gonzalez, like Jones, is flawed. So, I bet Jones could get a strong package of young players, though short of what the A’s got for Cahill or Gonzalez.
Justin Upton is just an example. I strongly implied in my post that he wasn’t available this year, though he was certainly available last year if a team was willing to give up bank for him.
The Braves have a great organization, no doubt. Trust me, O’s fans envy the Braves organization, especially in that they remind us of how the O’s were run during their glory years in the 60s through the 80s. But I think all teams in general these days overvalue their prospects to some degree, not in a rental situation like with Teixeira (in these situations it’s usually the rental who is overvalued), but in a situation where a team could trade multiple prospects for a young star. Many people are criticizing the Reds for giving up so much to get Mat Latos, but I think it’s a good trade for the Reds because Latos is potentially a true ace. The Braves would be making a bad trade if they traded Jurgens, Prado and two top pitching prospects for Adam Jones. But they wouldn’t be making a bad trade if they gave up that much and more for a young, proven player (Upton is just an example) or a more experience player they could sign to a long term contract.
That said, I think one of the young prospects for Jones and either Jurgens or Prado is fair. Prado is a Brian Roberts type. Jones has power and he plays a key defensive position fairly well. Plus Jones has shown improvement in every part of his game, though except OBP. There’s still a lot of potential in Jones. That said, I wouldn’t blame either the Braves or the O’s if they can’t match up on him.
Jurrjens and Pardo should be more than enough. Prado has outperformed Jones. Thus Prado>Jones. Throwing in JJ after that they O’s are already making out well. I know people will say JJ outperforms his periphs but he is not a strikeout guy. He wants people to put the ball in play against him and that will push his FIP and stuff up higher.
Jones plays centerfield, a key defensive position, well (though not great), and he has growing power, while still only 25. True, his OBP last year was only .319, but that’s still better than Dan Uggla’s or Nelson Cruz’s and it’s basically the same as Mitch Moreland’s. I agree Prado has been than Jones offensively thus far. So, even considering he was out much of last year, why are the Braves listening to offers for him? Something doesn’t seem right with the Braves’ handling of Prado. Other teams smell that the Braves may consider him damaged goods somewhat. If the Braves thought so highly of him at they used to, I can’t see why they would consider moving him while his value is low.
Uggla’s career OBP is .343 compared to Jones .319 . Morelands is .331 . Cruz’s is .330 .
Jones’ career OBP is .319 and has been dropping each year the last 3 years .
Adam Jones is a good player, but he really hasn’t done anything superstar quality. He’s a flashy defender, and a pretty decent hitter, I just don’t understand why the Orioles want to keep him so bad.
It’s not that they want to keep him “so bad”.
It’s that the Orioles and Braves don’t match up.
If the O’s are going to trade Jones, they need to trade him for prospects. And it doesn’t seem like the O’s are interested in the prospects that the Braves would be willing to give up.
…why?! the braves have some of the best pitching prospects in baseball and that’s exactly what the orioles need. i would have asked for one of the pitchers named plus another mid-level and laughed all the way to the bank
2 years of adam jones? one of which would be in LF? you’d be robbing the braves
“you’d be robbing the braves”
Which is probably why the Braves aren’t willing to give up any players that the Orioles are interested in.
Exactly. They wouldn’t be willing to give up GOOD prospects for Adam Jones because he just isn’t worth it. I’m not even sure if he’s worth JJ AND Prado. But for them to ask for two more prospects on top of that is outrageous.
If he’s ‘just isn’t worth it’ don’t ask the Orioles about him. Teams called about Jurrjens, Wren asked for a ‘Greinke’ package and Jurrjens is still a Brave. No one has a problem with Wren asking for way too much for Jurrjens, who is as available as the daily paper, but criticizes Balt for asking for way too much for a guy they have ZERO interest in trading??
Well he’s certainly better than having no center fielder. But he isn’t super-star like they make him to be. I never said Jurrjens was either.
Not sure why Orioles would want Prado or Jurrjens if they moved one of their better players… stick to bringing in high ceiling prospects.
If they can get one of those good young arms off the braves, do it
We need a CF’er to replace Jonesy if he’s traded.
That’s why the Braves aren’t a good match!
I don’t care what they give us!
what do you need a CF for? what’s going to happen if you don’t have one? are you going to…lose this year?
think long-term. you need good pitching prospects. the braves have them
See the replies more recently—possible trade with the Bravo’s
if it could be done. You are right the Sox need pitching.
How about Ellsbury in return for Adam and Reynolds.
I would do that in a heartbeat, I don’t think anyone is Boston would though
Good luck re-signing Ellsbury. Coming off 30-30…he’s going to be looking for $120M+…
Prado can put up the same numbers Jones can when he is healthy, and Prado gets on base more often… I don’t understand this trade on the Braves part
Prado has had a ton of health issues. You can’t overlook that. And he put up a measly .8 WAR in 590 PAs last year. Braves can keep him.
His health issues were a torn oblique in September, and a staph infection. Not structural injuries, more like freak injuries.
Prado was a walking corpse in August-September last year due to that staph infection.
No, Prado does not have a ton of health issues. He had an injury near the end of the 2010 season, which he fully recovered from by ST last season. Last season he developed a staph infection in a leg injury he got from sliding to catch a ball. His injuries have been caused by playing hard. I don’t want him traded because he’s the hardest working player on the Braves team by far.
And he had a 4.4 WAR in 2010….Adam Jones has never even sniffed a WAR that high. Orioles can keep him too.
> Prado has had a ton of health issues.
Is there some other Prado in the MLB?
English comprehension. You lack it.
A freak injury like a staph infection is hardly “health issues”. And other than that he’s had what, 2 injuries in recent years? Let me introduce you to Josh Hamilton and Nelson Cruz. They have health issues. When Prado gets anywhere near those two, then you have a valid argument.
Yes, he got a staph infection. Its not like its something that makes future injuries a bigger worry.
Let’s say the Red Sox made Ellsbury available–they want two pitchers. What two pitchers, one would have to be a current starter and the other a top AAA pitching prospect for: a Gold Glove, #2 in the MVP AL voting and a Silver Slugger.
What would you be willing to package knowing you have two years before Ellsbury hits the FA market–but two years to sign him as well–in addition you need to know you are dealing with Boras.
He was almost an MVP last year. It would take a monster package.
Prado sounds like another Dirt Dog that we could use in
Boston ; you can’t have too many Pedroia’s, Youk’s and Prado’s on a team. Perhaps Atlanta’s #4 starter, Prado and the Braves best AAA pitching prospect for Ellsbury.
We don’t have the money to re-sign Ellsbury. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the guy…and would argue he deserved the MVP, but as much as I’d love to write him a check for $120M+, unless Liberty Media sells the Braves in the next few years, I can’t see how we can possibly afford the contract he’ll warrant.
sorry had to jump in somewhere…i wouldnt trade one single of those players for jones with the exception of j.j and thats because of hisagent… we can get frenchy back for a box of rocks and get better production..why do people think this kid is the second coming of griffey jr…heck cant even hold andruw jones jock strap….p p p please…
Frenchy put up 2.9 WAR last season. Or about 2 WAR more than your boy Prado.
It’s nice that you took Prado’s career-worst year and Frenchy’s rebound year (on a bad team).
Francoeur was due considering he had a WAR no higher than 0.6 (that’s right) between 2008-2010, including a negative 3.0 in 2008 (!!!) In all of Prado’s 3 full seasons he’s averaged a 2.1 WAR even after a wretched 0.8 WAR in 2011 (which was still higher than anything Francoeur received between 2008-2010)…and Prado was injured and went through a position change.
FACE!
Duquette said it best “When you have some good players, other teams are interested.” Wish there was a bold button so I could emphasize GOOD.
It’s MLB, every team has “good players”
…even the Mariners.
I’m giving the finger to Dan Duquette, when did Adam Jones become Mike Stanton value.
God a 319 OBP, Michael Bourn is a better player.
Why WOULDN’T Duquette ask for a ton? Should he just tell Wren, “Give me whatever odds and ends you have?” Jones means a lot more to the O’s than he would to the Braves.
I’ve watched the vast majority of Adam’s Orioles career. I don’t think it is at all far-fetched to think he could put it all together in 2012.
Jones is not a premier player, he is under control for only 2 more years counting 2012 which means he is already in line to make around 5-6 million.
Really a guy making 5-6 million this year and probably 8 next year to play LF in 2012 and CF in 2013 with a sub 800 OPS.
Really asking for Brandon Beachy, and the best pitching prospect in the organization and the second best pitching prospect in mlb in Julio Teheran.
Would the Rays trade Matt Moore for 2 years of Adam Jones? No freaking way, Adam Jones is a slightly above average player.
Then Wren shouldn’t call other teams about their horrendous players. You think he’d try to get good players that would help the Braves, Maybe it’s time to bring Bobby Cox back to run the organization before Wren ruins it….
I don’t really disagree with you and don’t think the Braves should even think about giving up that much. All I’m saying is from a negotiating standpoint, it’s perfectly understandable for the O’s to start high, especially since I don’t really think they want to trade him.
As I said, however, I would not be surprised to see Jones have his best season yet in ’12.
I understand that maybe the O’s are overvaluing Jones and that maybe other fans dont want their team to trade for Jones, but enough with the whole Adam Jones isnt a good defender talk. It just isnt true.
First of all, he put up a positive defensive WAR in 2008 (1.6), 2009 (.2) and 2010 (.6). Last year was the first of his four years in Baltimore that he put up a negative dWAR. Advanced fielding metrics need to be viewed in terms of multiple years to get an acurate picture, and for his carrer, Adam Jones has a positive dWAR. To illustrate, just look at Carlos Lee, who somehow posted a 2.0 dWAR last year, while
playing 80 games in LF (and the stats actully liked his defense in LF better than his defense at 1B). From 2006 to 2010, Lee had a combined dWAR of -7.4. And anyone who has watched Carlos Lee play will tell you he’s a liability in the outfield.
Second, and more importantly, he is considered by managers within the game to be a plus defender. Baseball America polled all AL managers during the 2011 season, asking them to identify the players with the best tools in the game. In catagory of best defensive outfielders, AL managers voted Adam Jones the second best outfield defender (behind only Franklin Gutierrez). The article is on the BA site, under their free content.
I’m hoping the info is wrong. Jones for those 4 guys isn’t even an offer, it’s an insult.
What gets me isn’t so much that Duquette wanted both Jurrjens and Prado. Its more the fact that if you take a look at those other 5 names listed, 4 of those 5 are the 4 best prospects in the Braves organization (not pitching prospects, all prospects) and he wanted “atleast” 2 of them. Duquette reached right through the phone and slapped Wren dead in his face, I don’t blame him for not having talked to Duquette since.
Duquette said, if you really want him, you have to overpay for him. I don’t know how you feel that is insulting, Baseball is a business.
Duquette’s problem is he wanted to flip 1 “good” (and that’s a debateable point) player in Jones for 2 good players and 2 very good pitching prospects. Frank Wren isn’t Ed Wade.
” “good” (and that’s a debateable point) ”
No, no it isn’t.
Depends on if you think a guy who K’s a lot and has iffy defense is good or not.
Makes sense if you ignore all of his other stats, age, and trending improvement.
Just put it this way, last year was the first time Jones was better than Prado, and even then, Jones wasn’t nearly as good as Prado in 2009 or 2010. Why would anyone trade Prado along with JJ and two tops prospects for a guy with similar value?
You don’t make ridiculous offers like that in business if you want to maintain future business with the other party. It would be one thing if the Braves had called to ask what it would take and that’s what Duquette said, but to call and make that offer is just asinine.
See Latos and Gio. Stuff like this happens all the time. Thats the nature of the sporting industry. Players are commodities, and teams that need a specific commodity will overpay for it.
Also in terms of “future business” you are assuming baseball is comparable to like selling laptops where if you give someone a good price on laptops he will be a future buyer. Its apples and oranges and really has no comparative value.
Its when someone ACCEPTS the trade (see the Mariners) when future business gets a little dicey, but even then, every MLB team is always trying to improve (if they are well run).
I get it, that you found the purported offer insulting, but I really doubt you speak for the Braves organization and their future dealings on this one.
Latos and Gio are far more valuable than Jones given the fact they’ve produced at a higher level and have twice as much time under team control left. That can be seen in the returns they landed.
And making offers like this does affect future business in baseball. Schuerholz discussed it in his book. There were GMs who always tried to open trade discussions like this and it had a serious effect on the working relationship JS would have with them. Its not that he would ignore those guys, but it was almost impossible for them to get him on the phone to discuss a possible trade. It was more along the lines of “make me an offer and I’ll say yes or no, otherwise there is no need for us to talk.”
Now consider that Schuerholz is still very much involved with the Braves decision making (and hired FW in the first place), and do you really think making a ridiculous opening offer like this has no chance of costing the Orioles possible future business with the Braves?
You are totally missing the point of the Gio and Latos comparison.
Also I am not underselling your point that relationships exist between teams. Thats kind of obvious. Some teams trade with others more than others. Some teams sign former players from other teams more than others. The Orioles are currently involved in a Rangers love-fest.
What doesn’t work is the claim that this Adam Jones offer represents the break-down of these team’s ability to communicate and do future business. The Adam Jones offer, which was one offer, was for a player Duquette has said publicly, multiple times he does not want to trade, and to do so he would have to be “blown away.”
And to answer this question: do you really think making a ridiculous opening offer like this has no chance of costing the Orioles possible future business with the Braves?
Yes, I 100% believe than an opening offer (<"opening offer" being your words, not words I have seen anywhere else) for Adam Jones had exactly 0 impact on anything, except for a possible trade between the Braves and Orioles for Adam Jones, which honestly, could still happen. I've seen stranger things.
Just look at OPS. Braves don’t need another Franceour producing a measly OPS as an OF.
Why not give up a prospect or 2 there are only 5 spots on a rotation hanson 24 jurrjens 25 beachy 24 delgado 21 tehern 20 minor 24 medlen 24 hudson 35? Not to mention the pitcher we drafted from fsu last yr we grow pitching the braves are the best farm system in pitching and one of the best in the mlb why not go get a great player (adam jones, colby rasmus, hunter pence, mike stanton) we have the assests to do that
if they want to deal some of their pitching prospects they can do a heck of a lot better than Adam Jones
I agree in trading prospects for good players, but BAL is wanting 2 starters, plus possibly 2 of the pitchers you mentioned. That’s dumb for Adam Jones. BAL doesn’t have anyone that makes that worth it, even Machado.
I like Pence, but he’s not worth 2 of those pitching prospects.
Adam Packman Jones is a good player.But asking the Braves to give up Jurrjens Prado And to give up the two of this guys Brandon Beachy Julio Teheran Mine Minor Randall Delgado.It sure appear that Os don’t know how to workout a trade.The Braves should talk to the Os about doing any kind of trade with them.
I think alot of you guys are making this out to be more than it is. I’m sure Duquette highly doubted the Braves would even sniff at an offer like that. So why even make it? Are any of you tradesmen? contractors, electricians, whatever?
Ever be in a situation where you didnt have any work lined up, you get a call to bid a job… when you get there its just terrible. maybe the place is an hour drive away, maybe the owner is an annoying control freak, hell maybe the place a moldy dump that stinks of cat piss. whatever the reason you DONT want that job. but with that said you dont have any jobs. so you make an absolutely ridiculous bid. you expect them to turn it down, and thats fine you didnt want the job anyway. on the other hand if they actually take it you’re gonna get paid like a king to do the job you didnt want.
the orioles are in the same spot. however you all feel about jones, the orioles obviously want to keep the guy around. they have no desire to trade him. at the same time the state of affairs of the orioles franchise is so bad, they’re really not in a place where any of their assets are truly untouchable. so they make a ridiculous offer like this one. they dont expect the braves to take it. and they dont want to lose jones. but on the other hand if the braves are crazy enough to make the move, the orioles get paid like kings for a piece they didnt want to move.
make sense?
Hypothetically sure, but the issue is that we’re in the real world, and making offers like that loses you respect and makes it tougher to have future dealings with the Braves in the future. Schuerholz discussed these types of GMs in his book (the ones that would make a ridiculous opening offer everytime) and how in the long run most GMs stop ever having serious discussions with them. The only time you talk with them is when they call to make an offer, and you either accept or politely decline and hangup without discussing things any further.
God I hope there are more baseball rumors that are going to break this week. An overrated centerfielder, overvalued pitcher, mediocre utility guy and all the prospects all together aren’t worth this much bickering.
I hope you didn’t just actually refer to Prado as a mediocre utility guy.
they sure are a lot of dumb people on here if they think the braves would make that trade….
yep, THEY sure are. oxymoron?
good i was hoping to come off sounding all redneck…spit….
I’m not even going to justify it, I just think that Jones isn’t worth near that much. In a pitching-hungry market, I’d rather have Jurrjens over Jones anyways, and that’s without prado or any other prospects.
As an unfortunate Os fan if Jurrjens IS health then he alone is worth 2 Adam Jones-es. and his bubblegum.
Its just a matter of Baltimore being afraid to put ll there eggs in one basket and everything fall apart health & return-wise. Thats the reason they are asking and will obviously not get the return. Riley, Lowen, and now Matusz, Tillman & Arrieta ( and to a degree Wieters). Every path we take completely falls apart.
I would trade Adam Jones for Julio Teheran straight up. And I’m an Orioles fan.
Interesting. Honestly though, out of all the untouchables I think he’s the most untouchable.