The Blue Jays have inquired about the availability of Zack Greinke and Alex Gordon, according to Bob Elliott of the Toronto Sun. As Jayson Stark of ESPN.com reported yesterday, the Royals are looking for multiple top prospects for Greinke.
The Blue Jays have Shaun Marcum, Brandon Morrow, Ricky Romero, Brett Cecil and Kyle Drabek pencilled in to their 2011 rotation. They could either let Drabek begin the year in the minors or trade a starter of their own if they acquired Greinke.
Gordon could play first or third for the Blue Jays, but it’s unlikely that he would patrol the outfield, where Travis Snider, Vernon Wells and Jose Bautista figure to get most of the playing time.
It’s not surprising to hear that the Blue Jays inquired on Greinke, a former Cy Young Award winner, and Gordon, a former first rounder who has always destroyed minor league pitching, but it doesn’t mean that GM Alex Anthopoulos will make the Royals a serious offer.
Not exactly familiar with the Blue Jays farm system. But do they have enough high end talent to pull that off?
And why would Grienke want to pitch in the AL East if it’s not for Boston or NY? Would it not be as stressful or even more so being the opposing SP in those Stadiums? That and you get to run the gauntlet against two of the biggest spending teams in the sport along with one of the smartest and most well run organizations just to get a shot at the playoffs. If Grienke wants to be on a low key team that will never win he should just stay in KC.
I suspect Grienke would have absolutely no problem *pitching* in the AL East, or for the Red Sox or Yankees. When he’s on the mound, he’s in control, it’s his game. The major concern with him going to one of the big media markets is the handling of the media and the scrutiny he would be under in all aspects of his life. This is all my supposition, of course, I could be wrong.
As far as the Jays never winning, I hope you will eat your words before long :).
The Blue Jays lead all MLB in homeruns last season… one might think Greinke would enjoy having that kind of run support, something he didn’t see much of in Kansas City.
In 2009 he pitched against, I think, Halladay at the dome and gave up at least 3 HR and 6 runs. To that point in the season (June?) he had given up 1HR.
Hitter’s park cuts both ways.
after looking; it was in fact in June (5)- but only 2HR, AND the first 2 he had surrendered all year.
Also, he could ask Halladay about the Jay’s “run support” lol – seems to show up at the least effective times.
I was at that game. .It was Romero who pitched but It was an intense game as I recall, packed house as doc and zack both were front runners for the cy young at that point. . Zack didn’t pitch poorly, but you could tell the jays we’re doing it for the doc.
As for run support.. Doc always runs in to problems with run support as you saw for half the season with the phils.. I think that players see his effort and passion and get a bit intimidated and try to do too much and end up giving him no support as a direct result. If you ask Marcum, Cecil, Morrow and Romero they were pretty happy with their run support, not as happy with the bullpen though.
Wahoo lead the league in Home Runs!!! What exactly did that get them? 4th place? Toronto has one of if not the hardest gauntlet’s to go through in all of baseball. Can they make the playoffs? Yes they could. But it is unlikely they topple all 3 in any given year.
Topple all 3? I wouldn’t be surprised if the Rays slip back now that they’re losing 3 key players. Why do you assume the Rays will always be contenders? I expect the Yankees will slip too, with those 2 statues they’ve got on the left side of the infield, and who will be there for a long long time. The Blue Jays are going about their business. They are stockpiling arms. Expect to see the emergence of Snider and Morrow as top players in 2011. I’m not saying they’ll win in 2011, but I will say that they will become contenders soon, and remain so for a good while.
on a low key team that will never win.85 wins last year despite a top starter being shut down and an senile manager who kept his best hitter on the bench for the likes of fred lewis not to mention the fact that brian tallet came in to games.also, a low key team that set attendance records in the early 90’s.. first team to 4 million fans, no big deal.I suggest that if you want to make posts you perhaps take the time to learn a thing or two, but then again you did openly admit to being ignorant.
Your bringing up something they accomplished 20 years ago and have never come close to duplicating since? Toronto has done 0 since the days of Roberto Alomar and Joe Carter. They had the best pitcher of this generation and still couldn’t keep their heads above water. Until they prove they can compete with the other three on a regular basis, I see now reason why I should believe they can. If that makes me ignorant then so be it. Keep your fingers crossed for that exception to the rule season.
Yeah, it makes you ignorant. So be it.
lol.
I think the Jays have to depth pitching wise to make this happen. They also have an overflow in the outfield. I’d be even willing to deal Travis Snider to Kansas if it meant getting a pitcher as awesome as Greinke on our staff. Package him with two good pitching prospects from the minors who are ready to try out for the bigs and I think Kansas will bite.
I don’t include Snider. If thats KC starting point I don’t want it. Grienke is good yes and he won a Cy young, but pitching in the AL east is a different than the central. Even then he has been somewhat inconsistent from year to year and he is coming with a price tag on the back end of his contract. I like him and would love to see them get him, but I don’t think Snider has been really given the opportunity to see what he could be yet and don’t want to risk losing him. Pony up some others, not Snider
I would do a deal for Greinke with Snider at the centre in a heartbeat – and I think he’s terrific!
I agree, however, that other teams are likely to have a “show me” attitude with Snider, and so he (right now) looks like a “buy low” candidate himself, which apparently, is not what the Royals are looking for in a ZG deal.
Snider? Really?
I’d be more sympathetic to that idea if the Jays were seriously deficient in pitching, but they actually have an abundance.
As good as Grienke is, I’m not sure that he’s a dead-cert upgrade like Halladay, Lee, or Lincecum would be. I’m more than happy with Marcum, Morrow, Romero, Cecil, and Drabek for now, especially considering that all of them (bar Marcum) are yet to reach their ceilings.
The Jays should be trading pitching for bats, not the other way around. So for me, Gordon is a far more interesting idea…
you’re high out of your mind if you would consider moving travis snider for anyone not named trout or stanton. Realistically the best thing the jays can do is leave their rotation alone for now, let drabek develop, see what you have with morrow and maybe things get figured out on their own with out giving up anything. If no one surfaces as a top of the rotation starter, then and only then do you go searching.
I would not trade YEARS of our best hitter going forward for 2 years of Zack Grienke. I would not trade Snider straight-up for Zack Grienke. That’s how good I think Snider will be. He’s only 22!
I agree!
Let’s just make it clear that Snider is not getting traded, especially not for Grienke. Good pitcher but I wouldn’t move Snider at all.
Greinke was an AVERAGE pitcher last year. Not awesome. Average. There’s no way this deal is happening. The Blue Jays aren’t in any position to pay this kind of money plus give up good players (and certainly not Snider or Drabek) to get this pitcher, whom they don’t need.
I can see how they might be interested in Gordon. Maybe they’re interested in being the 3rd team in on some kind of deal for Greinke if one is made. But please . . .
You don’t know anything about the Jays’ capabilities if you think they aren’t willing to pay that kind of money. ROGERS has said that as soon as they are asked to up the payroll by AA they’ll do it. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
its not about the money, its the prospects that you have to give up.
Well, unlike you (apparently) I do pay attention to what AA says, and what he’s said lately doesn’t indicate to me that now is the critical time to pay dearly (in prospects and dollars) for 2 years of a pitcher coming off a relatively poor season. We are all in the dark here. I merely put forward what I take to be a logical interpretation of the “news” that the Blue Jays have “inquired” about Greinke and Gordon. To me, it would be illogical for them to trade for Greinke at this point (unless they could get him for prospects that are not already on the major league roster, and if KC is willing to pay part of the money due to him, both of which seem unlikely) since they have already a very good starting staff, with several high ceiling prospects in the minors. They also have serious needs in other areas, eg. bullpen, 3rd base, 1st base, etc. I’d much rather see them go there via trades than go after a starting pitcher at this point. And that’s what I think they’ll do, since that’s what AA has said he’ll do.
Are they ready to contend this year? It’s very doubtful that the Jays front office is thinking so. If they get to July and are in a good position, then that’s different.So, telling me I don’t know what I’m talking about, given your rather limited argument as to why, is stupid.
Not sure why they are interested in Gordon, that guy hasn’t even shown any signs that he’s got it figured out yet.
Potential is there…and maybe a change of scenery could work for him
Alex Anthopoulos has repeatedly said that he goes for the highest ceiling players, which means they have to target them before they reach their potential and take risks. Alex Gordon fits in perfectly with that philosophy, and fills a position of need (3B, OBP) with the team.
I’m just waiting for the Brandon Wood Experiment, we all see it coming Alex.
Alex is smarter than you think. Brandon Wood is a bonafide bust.
isn’t that what people said about Morrow?
He could still pitch out of the pen so I don’t see how he was a bust even if he didn’t make it as a starter. Mariners were a whack organization that never gave him the chance to blossom as a starter. Wood did get his chance last year and miserably failed.
Morrow was still considered a bust by many mariners fans, he was a high draft pick and was taking infront of a lot of players who developed and excelled much quicker then him.
a 5th overall draft pick is a bust if they end up in the bullpen
He was also never given the full opportunity to pitch as a starter full-time. Wood had a starting job at 3rd, sucked miserably and failed.
However, I still think Wood could become a decent player with a change in scenery but he’ll never be considered the same player he was in the minors.
“a 5th overall draft pick is a bust if they end up in the bullpen”
a simple look at the history of #5 picks would suggest that being a career major leaguer is pretty good, no matter where they play.
Uhhh… no?
in seattle they did!
He hasn’t exactly had a world of opportunity at the major league level.
I agree and it might be a change in scenary thing. He was good when he first came up and his bat has potential and he is still young. So it is possible for him to turn it around, Bautista certainly did and he was older.
In all honesty don’t do it, I like Grienke and the team needs an ace but any trade is going to have to involve Drabek or Snider, and at this point I’m just not willing to see them go.
If you could do a deal with out them, then perhaps, but that would mean KC is being generous. I could live with a Stewart, Arencibia, Cecil deal, but i just don’t see the Royals accepting. It would have to start with Drabek. Him for the next 6 years is worth more then Grienke the next 2.
It seems to me that with AA it would really come down to how the conversation goes. KC clearly wants to rebuild young, trading Greinke’s current value against future value. If they openly recognize this, Drabek’s value goes up. So do a bunch of our other minor league players including Gose and Arencibia or any of the multitude of newly-signed prospects.
If AA believes the impact of Greinke may result in contention for those two years while not compromising the current major league lineup (i.e. Snider or the Big Four), I think he’d have to trade.
I agree, but i think Grienke on the Jays doesn’t make them a world series contender… and AA has stressed continued success, not a flash in the pan.
His inquiring and considering grabbing him demonstrates AA may not believe he’s a flash in the pan.
oh no no, i didnt mean grienke was a flash in the pan, i meant the teams success would not be sustained after trading controllable prospects like snider and drabek.
The jays farm has some nice pieces, but has no depth. You can’t ‘go for it’ because realistically next year if bautista goes down, or wells gets hurt or decides he doesnt wanna try, theres no one formidable to replace them. The farm needs to be left alone to grow.
You and Stark below are probably right. AA seems to be playing the game several moves ahead and my optimism says it’s possible that he sees it as being a step to making the Jays a perennial contender.
I dunno — Greinke has a great year or two, the Jays resign him to a four year contract, get a bevvy of other players who become superstars and the Jays amass 105 wins and sweep Philly in the WS.
Lalallalalaa….
The Jays farm systems is one of the deeper systems in the game. And thats not just my opinion thats the opinion of most prospect experts and followers
Deep in catching and pitching prospects and lower level A prospects
They are definetely outside the top 10 farm systems
our position player depth is absolutely pathetic.
Actually most experts put them in the top 10 farm systems rather easily with some rating them as high as 4th or 5th. Its true though that a lot of their depth is pitching and catching and lower minors. They definitely could afford to trade some pitching for positional players though.
Give me links because i have seen any experts rank them lower then 14th
I don’t have links off hand but I will look. Most final rankings have not been done. I know Nathan Rode from BA stated in the BJ top ten chat that the system would rank anywhere from 5th to 15th. And I seem to recall other chats I have read placing them in top 10. If i find anything else I will send it over, im not a BA insider so I dont have the link. But i guess my statement of most experts putting them in the top 10 is a little premature but personally i see them as top 10 easily.
In the BA chat where they talked about the prospects (You need an account), Nathan Rode said this:
Morris (PA): Last year, the Jays ranked 28th overall, according to the Handbook. While I realize your staff hasn’t put together your rankings for next year, would they sniff your personal Top 10? Top 5?
Nathan Rode: While I haven’t stacked …them up against the other 29 teams, I think the Jays are easily in the Top 10, for me at least. Top 5 isn’t out of the question either. The one knock against it is that while there is a lot of upside, a lot of these guys are far away from the major leagues.
Thanks. I had just got the info second hand so this is good. And we can expect another good haul of prospects for the BJ’s in the 2011 draft
It was interesting to see that Hechevarria and Cardona, the two big international signings, didn’t make their top 10.
I believe he also compared them to Royals system last year where the talent was there but guys were away from the big league and after this year its one the best farm in the league.
Dan (D.C): Hmmm, you certainly know more about it than I do, but I was surprised to see you describe the Jays as a top 5-10 system. Is there just THAT much depth? I don’t see a lot of star power behind Drabek.
Nathan Rode: I do think so. There is a lot of depth and it goes well beyond Marisnick at No. 10. You’ll have to get the Prospect Handbook to see for yourself. Like I said the big thing with this system is there a lot of upside, but it’s far away. But look at the Royals. They are a candidate to be the top system in baseball. But at this time last year, many of their guys hadn’t played above High A. Now a bunch of them proved it Double-A and the system looks a lot better. I think the Jays are a Top 10 system, but I don’t have the final say. If they ended up 10-15, I don’t think I’d be terribly upset. But there’s also some good college guys with polish on this list that could easily find themselves finishing 2011 in Double-A.
Moonraker’s point was not that Grienke is a flash in the pan, but rather that mortaging future development for a two year playoff push does not fit the “continued success” model that AA’s been preaching. The biggest problem with acquiring Grienke for a Drabek-centred deal is the length of team control. It is just not obvious at this point that even with Grienke the Jays are ready to regularly contend in the East before ’13.
Then again AA might just be applying the same due diligence method as was used in the manager search. In fact, we will likely hear the Jays inquiring about a plethora of players this off season. Most of these rumours will go nowhere.
K how about this trade
To Toronto: Gordan & Grienke
To KC: Rzepcynski, Litsch, Stewart, Hill (Shawn), Richmond, Stewart, Mills
Instead of giving them high end talent, overcompensate with an abundance of major league arms.
Yeah, don’t see that happening. As much as I appreciate the lengths you will go to, including cloning Zach Stewart, but if we have that capability aren’t we better off just cloning Bautista and Romero?
lol I know, it was just a joke, I just really really hope AA doesn’t give away Drabek or Snider. thats all
I hear ya. I’m so pumped to see Snider get regular playing time for a full season. I think he is going to surprise some people around the league. Should we try for some optimistic projections? Think he cracks 25 or 30 bombs?
Well realistically, after a spotty year where he would play one game and sit the next 2 he still hit 14 dingers in 300 AB’s if you project that to a full season you’re looking at mid to high 20’s…thats after his terrible start, hitting lead off, and being jerked around by cito…
I think a modest projection is 30 bombs, i really think this kid is going to be a terror.
Probably could have had around there if he played full season so there is plenty of reasons to be optimistic. But watch out, if he breaks out, it wouldn’t surprise me if he hit 35-40.
Shawn Hill, Brad Mills, Jesse Litsch(at this point) and Scott Richmond don’t have real trade value. This package is offensive.
Relax. I think he was being facetious.
that was the point
I love how people think doing MLB trades in reality is as simple as Fantasy baseball.
i love how people think they are so smart but cant even recognize sarcasm!
Baustista, Drabek, Carlos Perez and a low level P prospect for Gordon and Grienke?
Not enough, considering Bautista is 1 year from FA and does not really help them in their efforts to rebuild/get younger.
The Jay’s do make for an interesting match. This Grienke thing is a bit of a head scratcher to be honest. Dominant stuff, young, relatively cheap, however based on reports, may not have the character for many teams. That said, there are only a handful of teams that make sense (Nationals, Orioles, ??) however these are lateral moves and I don’t think either team competes next season, maybe 2012, but so can the Royals at that point. I mean who else out there really works and has the pieces to pull this off? If I had to bet $100, I’d say Grienke winds up staying in Kansas. I just don’t see it any other way. Basically, the Jays really can make a run at this guy and do it on their terms probably.
I’d bet you $100 Greinke doesn’t stay in Kansas!! The Royals play in Missouri.
That’s why they are called the Kansas City Royals, not Kansas Royals. Cool geography bro!
I think I understand the thinking behind this. The Jays young pitching would really benefit from a veteran starter at the helm, but I’m not so sure Zack Greinke is your guy. He doesn’t seem like the “leadership” type of guy that would really make sense as an ace in Toronto, so I don’t think it’s worth moving two or three valuable pieces for two years of Greinke, when in a year, guys like Chris Carpenter and Mark Buehrle hit the market. Those are two guys that could really help a young staff.
The Jays already do have their veteran leader of the staff: Shaun Marcum.
You look in the wrong spot once, and people are ready to throw you to the wolves, sheesh. >.>
Actually, 95 but you were close.
Woops. Looking at the wrong colum.
Actually 95 starts, but you were close.
And even in 95 starts, he’s never thrown over 200 innings in his career, has had injury concerns, and came close to having 200 innings once, in 2010. (195 IP). He’s a good pitcher, but an added veteran could only help.
What does number of career starts have to do with leadership skills?
I’m assuming that because you’re a Phils fan, you wouldn’t know that Marcum is both a leader in the clubhouse and the rotation. So it’s all good.
Anyway, he has 95 career starts. Not sure where you pulled your number from.
Yeah, I was typing too fast without proofreading and pulled the number from the wrong colum. No doubt, I think that Mamrcum is a good pitcher, and I don’t doubt that you hear from the Toronto media that he is a “good clubhouse guy” and what not, but the benefit of a guy with the experience of Mark Buehrle or Chris Carpenter, etc., would far outweigh the benefits of a Zack Greinke (for his own reasons), or a Shaun Marcum. Don’t see why you’d be so against adding one of those guys.
I do agree with you that the jays need a front of the rotation starter.. you cant go in to the playoffs against CC, Lester, Price without a top guy… but i think the 2 guys you mentioned aren’t good examplesChances are Carpenter wouldn’t want to come back to Toronto, and at this point Buehrle isn’t good enough to make the jays rotation lolbut i get what you’re saying, just bad examples.
I was thinking the same thing, but there aren’t many frontline starters available in upcoming years. Oswalt was another guy, but word has it he’s been considering retirement. The trade market seems to be the place to go for these type of pitchers, and I can’t imagine many that would be dealt that fit Toronto’s need.
Ya FA markets are thin these days, but the trade route should be the way to explore. Especially with all the international signings and extra draft picks, the jays farm should be stocked soon enough to make a trading for an ace easier..
I don’t think the Jays would go after either of the guys you mention on a long term contract basis. Maybe as a trade toward the deadline if they’re in contention.
I don’t get why people haven’t any confidence that one of the Jays current starters will become the ace to rival Lester, Price, CC, etc. in the AL East, especially now with Farrell as manager. I think it will be Morrow, but it could be Drabek, it could be Stewart, it could even be Romero.
They’re not going to be there in 2011, but they’ll be getting close. There are still other issues to be resolved: bullpen, offensive improvement. It ain’t all gonna happen at once. But they are moving in the right direction, and I expect another year of exceptional improvement from the starters. I don’t think there’s any desperation at this point to add a “number one” starter, and I certainly don’t think they’re likely to sign one (like Carpenter) coming off free agency at age 36.
God no, I wasn’t talking about a long term deal. Lol. It’s not that I don’t have any faith in the Blue Jays starting rotation, it’s just that I think a veteran, like the two guys I named above, or one not named, would pay them great dividends. Even if said pitcher is a number two, and maybe not an “ace,” the experience he’d provide in a young clubhouse (from a pitching standpoint) would be worth it. Some things just can’t be learned on your own.
Marcum has 95 career starts… with a Career 3.85 ERA… and he was the pitching staff leader last year… its easy to forget that Marcum has always been a good pitcher and would probably have a big contract by now if had not been the injury that left him our for 2009
He had 31 starts this year, he’s not a rookie lol
Honestly, I got it when the first three guys said it. =__=
lol, we all said it at the same time
You did not! Hahahaha
Greinke is great and all, I just don’t see him as being the ace toronto needs. I think the other commenter had it when he said pitching in the east is different than the central. Gordon though is still under control for a while and I would love to see what he could do given the chance. I’d take him over E5. Also, the higher obp would ne nice.
What kind of Ace does Toronto need then?
A doctor or a king.
Zing ! Greinke’s got loads of talent, but so do all our pitchers at this point. I’d rather have a more vet guy like an Oswalt, Becket, or as Raker says a doctor or a King. The situation of Greinke and whoever was called up from AAA in Kansas would be a lot different than Greinke leading the guys we have here in Toronto. I could just see a Lackey like regression when he has to face the Yankees and the Rays more often then he had to over in the central. Toronto needs an Ace who we know wouldn’t have a problem with that type of transition.
I’m all about JJ, marlins gotta trade him eventually.
Another thing overlooked is the fragile Jays fanbase, ask Vernon Wells or Lyle Overbay how supporting the fanbase is when a player is struggling.. Not that other fan bases don’t turn on their own players, but Toronto fans especially have a passion for booing players who are under performing.
Don’t count me in on booing players, I think it’s revolting.
Only in baseball, it seems.
But they also have a passion for going bananas for players that succeed. Being at games for Arencibia’s debut and Bautista’s 51st and 52nd homers was pretty insane.
I was also at Arenicibia’s debut. That was one of the most exciting games and great atmosphere I’ve ever witnessed.
I went to Morrows near no hitter, it was bitter sweet i was so upset afterwards
but realitically the raptors sucks, the leafs suck more, no one cares about the argos or the rock, bills suck…
The toronto fan base is starved for a competitive team. The dome could be the place it once was if the team can atleast hang in until the end, get in to a wild card chase.
Yeah, unfortunately, The Raptors really do suck right now. Six game losing streak? Ouch.
Heh yeah in baseball and maybe the Raptors.
Leafs, however, have deserved to be boo’ed.
This was one hell of a season, so many exciting stuff, too bad I never got to actually see it but it was great.
Let’s not forget that AA is not shopping for people with accomplishments. He’s picking up people with, as they say, high ceilings. He, his expensive scouting staff and Pappy Walton might see something in Greinke to improve.
And with the more-or-less tight defense behind him, a manager who helps his team win and a lineup capable of slugging the most homeruns in a season ever outside of the steroid era, he might be able to get some good numbers, if not improve the team’s chances of contention.
He might not be a leader in the rotation. But he’ll have good things to say from his experience pitching-wise, and Romero and Marcum “lead” as much as a team needs. I’m sure they’d welcome Greinke into their shenanigans just fine.
And if he brings in more wins and throws the way he’s thrown before, the fanbase will love him.
Can’t see AA tossing in all the chips for Grienke. Doesn’t work with his plan. Gordon could be a real possibility.
I would trade Drabek for Greinke but I’m not as high on Drabek as others. He certainly has ace upside but I don’t know if he ever reaches it, I could see him being a 2-3 guy. If you have a chance to get a legitimate ace you have to willing to take the chance and go for it. Obviously Drabek and Snider is overpay but I want proven over unproven.
For two years vs. six years? Or are you assuming you will be able to resign him? I would rather take high ceiling + team control + relative cost certainty.
I can see the Jays getting both Gordon AND Greinke.
Gordon can get back to playing 3rd, let him work things out there.
Then if they wanted too, flip Greinke to some the the teams that lost out on the Lee sweepstakes.
Greinke’s value would go up once Lee is off the market.
He has a no trade clause and most of the teams in on the Lee sweepstakes are big market teams that he can veto.
Just FYI from a guy who has watched Gordon play hundreds of games from the minors to majors … he’s a MUCH BETTER outfielder than a third baseman. I saw him make some nice plays in the minors at third and thought he could stick there, but he seemed to regress once he reached the big leagues. He looks, potentially, like a very solid defender in left field, however.
don’t worry the jay’s got butterfield
The Blue Jays have a great rotation already and they are most likely only going to get better. I see no reason why they would want Greinke. Didn’t Greinke say a few days ago that he would decline any trade to the east coast teams anyway?
The east coast teams he doesn’t want to play for are teams like New York and Boston. He would loooove to play for Tampa and I’d bet he wouldn’t mind playing in Toronto. He’s good friends with John Buck, so I’m sure he’d get some input from him about everything beforehand.
Is it really worth it for the Jays to trade Drabek + Stewart + more for Grienke? I’d rather take 6 years of Drabek and Stewart to 2 of Grienke I think. Oh and I wouldn’t trade Travis Snider. He is going to be an absolute monster and best hitter on the Jays.. very soon.
Also, this doesn’t jive with AA’s philosophy for the team at all. He wants to win perennially not just for the next two years. I can see him getting Grienke and then flipping him to another team either now or at the trading deadline next season.
I’d do the deal IF KC didnt demand Drabek or SniderI’d do a Cecil, Arencbia, Stewart, Rzep for Gordon/Grienkebut imo royals dont bite
Wouldn’t do that either. Cecil is an AL East destroyer.
I suppose, but you have to give up to get something. And no way does KC do a trade without a pretty good pitcher coming back.
I would take the chance and sell high on cecil
Again, I agree with you moonraker. If you want a young guy with dominant (at times) stuff, then you will have to give up something. There’s just no way a bunch of mid-level guys will get it done. Trades like this always puts a dent in the acquiring team’s young talent.
I agree with you, Royals won’t bite unless Drabek/Snider or possibly both are in the deal.
I think AA is just doing his due diligence on Greinke, Gordon makes a boatload of sense however and wouldn’t cost a blue chip prospect.
The Jays need to be looking for 3b,1b options with high obp’s. They need some speed not pitching. When they have those guys, then go looking for an ace. Maybe by then, this young staff will have developed even further, and they won’t need an overpaid “Ace”.
Jays fans are becoming the new Yankee fans and Red Sox fans, without the achievement to back it up. So pompous and arrogant all of the sudden.
Not pompous, nor arrogant. Maybe they are just fed up with fans of the Yankees and Red Sox, talking to them about being irrelevant. Maybe they are tired of constantly being dismissed, just because they are fans of a team that hasn’t won in awhile. Maybe they are tired of being told, come back and talk to us when your team wins something. Or there is this one, third place, third place, third place. Jays fans have heard it all, a zillion times. They are fans of the Jays because that is “their” team. Finally, this team is headed in the right direction and they are excited. As far as achievement, it is coming.
Lol okay.
Can you give examples of this pomposity and arrogance?
*looks at post history. Yeah, you’re just a Yankee troll that is worried about the Blue Jays. Don’t be such a try-hard.
Agreed… the Yanks should start looking in the rearview mirror and reaching for the geriatrics meds
Arencibia + Drabek + someone else off a list of “further away” prospects of their choosing.
Jays receive Greinke and Gordon.
Greinke
Marcum
Romero
Morrow
Cecil
How do you not do that trade? If you’re AA that is..
2 years of Grienke for 27 million.
or
6 years of drabek for minimums
thats how
Still definitely worth considering. You have NO Idea if Drabek will pan out. To get an ace for 2 years is not nothing.
I have NO idea that Drabek will pan out just like you have NO idea that Grienke will be able to return to 2009 form.
I think a grienke deal if u dont give up snider or drabek would be AMAZING….i mean do a zack stewart/sean ochinko/joel carreno deal. Gives KC two top end arms and a possible catcher of the future for them. Then maybe throw in scrabble (rzep) and possibly try and get gordon thrown in. Gordon in toronto makes a ton of sense and could possibly be HUGE for the jays. This guy has a boatload of potential and a change of scenery could produce numbers for him. Fans in KC have thrown the towel in on gordon so i say get him if we can with or without grienke.
Forgot in the grienke deal to throw in Cecil….I love cecil and i think he will be a good pitcher but you gotta give up something to get something. So KC would in turn get 3 pitchers, one proven or sort of proven in Cecil and then 2 up and coming high potential arms in stewart and carreno. Rzep could be a bonus for kc as getting him in the deal would be another boost to their rotation or bullpen. If KC wants a position player instead of Rzep i think Chris Lubansky (of) or Darin Mastroianni (of) with a ton of speed if you get Grienke and Gordon. Deal works on both ends, KC gets younger and potential in the deal and the jays get a top of the rotation starter as well as a 3rd baseman of the future
Throw in Cecil? Cecil isn’t just some throw-in in a trade.
not what i meant, by no means is cecil a throw in pitcher but he is a MLB ready pitcher and i dont think you get a grienke without including someone ready. On that note, i wouldnt include Marcum, Romero or Morrow and i wouldnt want Drabek included either so obvious candidate would be Cecil. I mean who outta the big 4 would you part with? Marcum is the bulldog, romero is a horse and morrow is gonna be great!!
Agreed. Mike Wilner is a huge fan of Cecil’s and thinks he could be a legitimate ace; I don’t disagree. I think the Jays would be dealing him too early; give him another year or two to see what they’ve got on their hands. At the very least, he shouldn’t be considered a back-of-the-rotation trade chip.
Sorry sir, but I believe you forget that Chris Lubansky was drafted by the Royals and completely, in every way possible, wore out his welcome here. The kid regressed from the moment we took him in the first round and never could get out of the minor leagues. There’s absolutely no way in the world we would want to take a terrible player like Chris Lubansky in a deal for Zack Greinke – even if he’s a throw in. We’ve been down that road and he couldn’t cut it. You guys keep him and hopefully you can make something out of him. We couldn’t.
Yes, i know KC let him go but i was thinking as a throw in in the deal maybe…maybe not…mastoianni might be the better fit. Lubanski to his credit did put up solid numbers this year. But the speed of mastroinna might be enticing for KC. And on a side note he was an extra player thrown in to include gordon not as part of a grienke deal
I wouldn’t sniff either one of them for Gordon. The Royals aren’t in a position where they’re ready to give up on him yet. There’s still a lot of potential in him. Now, if he’s still the same crappy player a year from now, he might have that kind of value.
Agreed i dont think the Royals should give up on him. I am just saying at this point i would not overpay for a player who has yet to figure things out. Potential is one thing, performance is a whole other can of worms. I am just stating that if he had a change of scenery maybe Gordon blossoms and becomes the great player everyone thought he would be. Not sure what the royals would need as farm as positions as I am not overly familiar with their farm system but i do know ppl think Mastroianni has solid potential to be an everday outfielder with tons of stolen bases. Figured with dejesus being gone now that could be a fit
You make some awesome points. If you guys can pry Gordon from us, and maybe you can, he could be huge for you. And if I were you, I would in no way offer very much for him. Seriously, Gordon is a huge risk if you offer much. I couldn’t agree with you more, sir. He has proved nothing and a change of scenery could be just what he needs.
I would love for you guys to make us a solid offer for him, but you’d be crazy for it! 🙂
FYI, I’m not being sarcastic with that post either. I really do agree with you, Jays4life.
Chris Lubanski? You realize the Royals just let him go for nothing, right? Something tells me they wouldn’t want him as a piece for their best player.
I still think it’s way too much. We’re getting bowled over by the name.
Bottom line is that he’s a pitcher who is about to get pricy with only two years left. We’d be gutting the farm for a guy who would only be upgrading our strongest area anyway.
Colby Rasmus is a whole different situation…
I wouldnt say we would be gutting the farm, removing some big prospects yes but not gutting. We are pitching heavy and yes i know you need all the arms you can get but at the same time u dont know if they will pan out. Grienke is an ace, and if in a year and a half you know he isnt gonna resign he has trade value.
As for Colby Rasmus, I would LOVE to see the jays go after him, he would fill a bigger need and i believe as many do this guy is the real deal. Gonna be a superstar but i just dont see St. Louis trading him, if we were after him it would def. cost drabek and or snider plus others for sure.
wtf is this “throw in cecil” crap? he is one of our best pitchers, and is now a proven commodity. his upside is not much below greinke himself.
If the Jays aren’t willing to give up Drabek, I could see Royals asking for something like Cecil, Stewart, Arencibia, Thames, Emaus. That would be a pretty good package IMO.
i think that is an awful lot to give up. Thames has huge potential…..Arencibia is our starting catcher right at the moment unless something happens to change that. I wouldnt mind Stewart/Cecil/Emaus and a lower prospect but all those 5 is way to much.
Cecil, Stewart, Arencibia for 2 years of Grienke? Why on EARTH would AA do that?
hahaha. a “good” package. this is getting out of hand. i’d take cecil and stewart in front of greinke any day.
Plain and simple, at this point in time any deal Dayton Moore discusses with the Blue Jays is going to start around Drabek, Snider, Stewart, Arencibia. Period.
That’s not me talking and saying it will take all of those guys, but I guarantee he would demand Drabek and most likely Snider in a deal. That’s simply what Moore is going to do. They’ve been telling teams they want a “Greinke-like” young pitcher in return.
Moore’s been saying all offseason that the Royals would need to be bowled over to deal Greinke. Now, I think he would love to trade him before this season begins as they’re trying to take money off the books and Zack’s salary will jump to the $13.5MM range. Alas, trading David DeJesus yesterday to save $5.5MM this yr.
They are building for the future and trading Zack will be crucial in a good/bad way for this team moving forward. Moore needs to hit a homerun with any Greinke deal, and Zack will get dealt sooner or later since he same as said he won’t re-sign here. Therefore, Dayton’s going to ask a king’s ransom for the kid as he should for a young Cy Young winner.
And let me assure you, pitching in the East is not a no-go for Zack. To certain teams, yes, but not all of them. I have personally interviewed him on a number of occasions (I work for a newspaper) and he speaks as if he’s infatuated with the Rays (he’s from Orlando) and has even dropped hints in the past about having a desire to play for a team like that. His anxiety issues haven’t even been an issue for a long time now, it’s really only the out-of-towners who keep bringing it up. He’s had treatment and is a different kid from what he was, but has never liked people going gaga over him.
Really, I think Zack just wants to go somewhere where he can feel like his team earned a championship and didn’t buy it. That’s just the way he sees things, not me talking.
I think you are doing Dayton Moore a disservice. Surely he can’t be silly enough to think that Drabek and Snider would be on the cards.
Drabek is cheap, under team control for a while, and has plenty of upside. Snider has every chance of becoming a monster hitter.
I mean, we’re not even talking about an elite-elite pitcher here, are we? Would people really put him in the AL East over Sabathia, Lester, Halladay, Lee, Hernandez, Lincecum?
I hope you were being sarcastic when asking if Greinke is really an elite pitcher. Have you seen him pitch much? The kid is a stud in every fashion of the word. He won a Cy Young in his mid-20’s beating out the likes of Sabathia, Lester, Halladay, Lee, Hernandez (Lincecum is in the NL) to win the award. I really have no idea what makes anyone think Zack is not an elite pitcher. Just watch him.
As for Dayton Moore, the reasons you mentioned – coupled with the fact that Greinke is as highly regarded as he is in baseball circles – is the exact reason why he would demand prospects like Drabek and Snider – who, like Gordon, haven’t proved much yet in the big leagues – in a deal.
I totally see your points from a Blue Jays standpoint. But the Royals would want Drabek because – as you put it – he’s “cheap, under team control for a while, and has plenty of upside. Snider has every chance of becoming a monster hitter.”
You see my point? In no way am I doing Dayton Moore a disservice. I would be doing him a disservice if I said he should ask for a bunch of mid-level prospects. Because then he wouldn’t be doing his job in trying to make the Kansas City Royals a better organization.
Afterall, the Blue Jays called us. 🙂
…after the Royals invited the call 😉
I’m not sure that the Royals invited any calls, I think Zack did when he pretty much told us he wasn’t going to re-sign when his contract runs out. 😉
I didn’t say Greinke wasn’t elite – I just questioned whether he was “elite-elite”, and that is a legitimate question for any pitcher in the Central without playoff experience.
In other words…you could plug Halladay, Lester, Sabathia, Lee in at the top of the rotation, and have full confidence that they’d lead the staff over a season. Would you honestly say just as many people would be sold on Greinke?
As for Snider and Drabek…well, you said it yourself – the Royals are looking to unload some payroll. The Royals don’t have absolute leverage here. And Snider is beyond a prospect, in all fairness; he’s not a veteran by any means, but he’s had enough bats over the last couple of years to convince Jays fans that he’s the real deal.
I say that you’re doing Moore a disservice, because if that is what he thinks he can *get*, then he won’t be doing any dealing (with the Jays, at least). The Jays won’t trade Snider because of the outfield has enough holes as it is already; Drabek is fair game and should be a centrepiece in any such deal. Adding Snider in there is ker-azy.
I still don’t get where I’m doing Moore a disservice, because it’s his job to go out and ask for that. It doesn’t mean “he thinks he can *get*” those players. That means that’s what he wants for him and where the negotiations will start. You don’t cut a guy a bargain and sell your Porsche just because he was the first guy who comes by, if you get my drift.
I must disagree with you on your belief that the Royals don’t have absolute leverage. Actually, the Royals have all the leverage here. First of all, the free agent market for starting pitching is weak after Cliff Lee and VERY expensive this year.
Second, the Royals don’t have to make a move because they control Greinke for 2 more years!
Third, if you think the Blue Jays are the only team calling and willing to make a deal for Zack then you’re living under a rock. The Jays are just one of a number of teams calling about him. The Jays will be bidding against a whole bunch of other teams, and the Royals don’t have to make a deal.
So, actually, the Royals hold all the leverage here. If they don’t like the Jays’ offer, they’ll hold onto him and shop him elsewhere or at another time. Plain and simple. 🙂
Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
The combination of a hefty contract, a limited no-trade clause, questionable consistency, and a need by KC to reduce the payroll tells me that there’s no way KC will/should be getting a bigger haul than Lee and Halladay.
I’ll eat my words if I’m wrong!
We can still be friends, right? 🙂
I think Greinke has the potential to be included among the likes of those you mentioned above. He truly has dominant stuff, but playing for a loser for a prolonged period of time gets to you. I think Zack Greinke is a solid fit for the Blue Jays.
We have a young pitching staff. Toronto is one of the best cities of North America, but doesn’t come with the intense pressure (unless you’re the Leafs or Raptors). The Blue Jays have a plethora of young, solid pitchers who are more of number 2’s than legit aces. Brandon Morrow and Ricky Romero have the potential to be aces, but are not there yet. Zack Greinke will be a legit ace for us. We need that going forward.
As far as what I’m willing to give up, I certainly won’t be giving up both Kyle Drabek and Travis Snider.
Kyle Drabek + JP Arencibia + Brad Mills for Zach Greinke + Alex Gordon
Very nice points, sir. I totally agree with you!
Just one thing. Take Alex Gordon out of that last trade proposal or add another elite prospect and you may be onto something. 🙂
Mm no.
The only legitimate starter that would be given in this deal would Brett Cecil. He is the only guy of our starting rotation it seems AA is willing to trade. I don’t know why people are saying trade Arencibia, Stewart or Drabek. Baseball America has these guys as key players to our staff in the years to come…believe it or not, they are predicting Drabek to be the ace by 2014. I doubt AA would trade a guy who we got for ROY HALLADAY for hit or miss Zack Greinke, yes lets see some consistency Zack.
Cecil is the same age as Stewart, but has two years of MLB experience and a 22 & 11 record to show for it (while displaying some really good stuff). I’m sure AA would rather give up the prospect in this case.
Agreed. Marcum is likely traded before him unless a situation presents itself where Cecil can be part of a package for an elite player.
Well I say Cecil because he is a few years younger than Marcum. Also, Stewart is being projected to be our closer in the future versus getting into the rotation. I’m just saying if someone is coming in, someone is coming out and Romero, Morrow, and Drabek are pretty much the untouchables which leaves it down to Marcum and Cecil. I think the younger Cecil would appeal more to the Royals because he’s the next best thing you can get to a top-tier prospect.
greinke is not halladay, so any deal for him would have a package worth less than drabek, taylor and d’arnaud. for greinke, maybe drabek + cecil or drabek + d’arnaud gets it done.
i dont think shaun marcum figures into this at all, royals will want someone younger with more upside. marcum is pretty much as good as hes going to get right now
Anybody who thinks Brett Cecil is in any way a lesser pitcher than (almost) any other Jay has never seen the man pitch. He is a bona-fide stud. Don’t expect him to go anywhere, unless the name coming back is Rasmus. Cecil could quite surely become a better pitcher than Greinke ever was. I would not sleep well letting him go.
I know the talent is there with Gordon, but the guy has had every opportunity to get it together and hasn’t OPS’d over .800 in his MLB career. The guy is a AAAA player.
I’d rather inquire on players whose talent ceiling isn’t falling down on them.
AA vs. Dayton Moore….this should go well for the Royals..
That’s one of the funnier things (because it’s true) that I’ve read in a while!
If I was KC, and evaluating the Blue Jays with a view to trading Greinke, I’d want Morrow and somebody else.
But . . . why is everybody so convinced that Greinke is so great? Look at last season. Pitching in a relatively weak division. His performance, looking at ERA+, was exactly average. Average. After a great season the year before. Why? Does anybody know?
Ok, I’m not saying Greinke is just average, but he’s not the “can’t miss” dominating starter everyone seems to think he is. He had one excellent season, and deservedly won the Cy Young. But that’s it. To imagine that he’s a sure thing to dominate in the AL East is lunacy. I certainly wouldn’t like to see the Jays give up ANY top young players to get him.
AA is doing his due diligence. Note that the inquiry was about Greinke AND Gordon. Maybe he sees a way to get in on a deal as a third team if Greinke is traded. Maybe he has some idea about how Gordon could be rehabilitated. Who knows. But trading for Greinke goes against everything that AA and the front office have said they’re going to look to do this off season.
People who way they’d trade Snider or Drabek for Greinke in a heartbeat are fools. Certainly the Jays can’t afford to make that trade, and they don’t need to.
Mick, a big reason for Zack’s numbers being down was because the team tanked their season right away and he pretty much pitched uninspired 2/3s of the season. The year he won the Cy Young award there was much hype surrounding that season that the team would contend for the playoffs. When things are on the line the kid just takes it to a whole new level. He tends to lose interest only if he is unhappy and the team is crappy.
I hate to admit it, but it’s the honest truth.
To be fair, teams also laid off his slider last year. That’s his K-pitch.
With that in mind, do you still stand by your assertion that Greinke belongs in the game’s elite class? Blue Jay fans witnessed Halladay in action for a decade, and he famously gave his all in a “one pitch at a time” philosophy.
Now we’re talking about a guy who was dodgy for 2/3s of a season, needs things to be on the line, and needs to be happy with himself and the team in order to pitch well…and has never worked a season outside the Central or in the playoffs. Oh, and a pretty hefty contract.
Does that really warrant a mega-haul?
Agreed, Grienke is a hell of a pitcher but to expect Drabek and Snider is a lil crazy. Maybe drabek, would rather not but def in no way does snider go in this deal.
Halladay was a beast and any gm would pick halladay straight up over grienke. Halladay pitched no matter what surrounded him and when he didnt have his best stuff still could dominate, can the same be said with grienke??
I’m certainly a Royals fan, but I agree that Drabek and Snider would be a king’s ransom for any player. I’m not just throwing that out there though. Trust me, Dayton Moore will at least ask for those two guys. It’s crazy and if I were the Blue Jays I would in no way deal both of those guys. I saw Drabek pitch in high school during Team USA trials and he was an obvious stud.
But elite starting pitching (that is proven in the big leagues) costs a premium in this game, as you know.
I can’t argue about whether GM’s would pick Halladay over Greinke because I don’t know all of their opinions. We have some crazy GM’s out there though man!
There’s no doubt Greinke is elite. Whether he’s elite-elite is certainly in the eye of the beholder.
If they acquired Grienke they would have top 5 rotation in the majors.
Yanks
Phils
Giants
Blue Jays- Grienke
?
i dont think the yankees rotation is all that good. I mean you have CC, he is great, Burnett is a hit and miss if he is on he is good if not look out, Phil Hughes, well same as burnett atm. Had a break out season but who knows how that will transpire next year. Pettite if he returns is good and great in post season but is getting older so may slow down….5th starter is unknown as vazquez was NOT good this year as a yankee. so how you put them top 5 in the league with one exceptional proven starter is beyond me
Yankees have the top rotation? Guess you’re assuming they get Lee, but even with him it’s a bit of a stretch. I think the Jays will be seen, after this coming season, to have one of the best rotations in baseball. Morrow is an ace waiting to happen, and it’ll happen in 2011. Anyway, the Jays won’t be getting Greinke, so the mighty Yanks are safe for now.
oakland? boston?
Phils probably have the best top 3. I think Giants, A’s and Boston have a better overall 1 through 5 rotation (though I don’t know A’s #5 yet). Yankees shouldn’t even be a consideration for top 5 unless they added Lee.
According to baseball reference, the Yankees starting pitching was better than Boston’s, and New York’s was slightly above average.
best staffs:
red sox
giants
phils
jays
A’s
pretty much in that order. baseball reference must be on crack… yanks only have one above average pitcher, maybe 2 with a healthy petitte. hughes’ ERA was over the league average, burnetts a headcase and vazquez will be lucky to hav a big league job next year. even with lee i’m not sure they’re a top 5 staff
I know full well that runs allowed isn’t the only stat to look at, but:
Padres: 3.59
Giants: 3.60
Athletics: 3.86
Atlanta: 3.88
Philles: 3.95
Cardinals: 3.96
_____________
Yankees: 4.28
Blue Jays: 4.49
Red Sox: 4.59
That’s runs allowed, not ERA in 2010.
My top five would have to be rounded out between:
Giants
Phillies
Braves
Padres
Athletics
Cardinals
I like Greinke, as do most people who follow MLB. I just don’t see a fit for a trade. Anthopolous has been saying he’s open to trading Toronto’s prospects for MLB ready help, but I think that adding a player of Greinke’s caliber is a finishing move, akin to them trading for David Cone in 92 (or was it 93? – can’t remember). Right now the top prospects (Snider, Stewart, Drabek) have to be considered as core players moving forward.
On another note, Greinke’s mental health issues are nothing new. One could argue a guy named Roger Maris went through a similar issue during his career. The difference in 2010 is we have syndromes and diseases where in 1961 they had surly and shy.
AA gained the following knowledge from this
1. Allows him to find out what the current market is for high end starters
2. Is actually looking at other talent but wanted to see a comparison. So if AA wants to go after Dempster, Carmona, Johnson, Rodriguez, Gallorado, he has a measuring stick.
3. Allows for a VERY interesting off season in the AL East, with all 5 teams trying to make strides
4. A play action fake could be going on, and the Jays are working on a totally different trade
They would have to trade drabek and a major league player to pull this off
I like Gordon for the Blue Jays. One decent arm should be enough to make it happen. Then the Jays non-tender Encarnacion and have an even better lineup.
greinke is an ace but other then his 09 year, his numbers are at best good, not great. delivering drabeck and some mid term fillers would be more reasonable as 2 top tier prospects would be just ridiculous i.e. drabeck + snider.
we actually wouldn’t need greinke as our team is built for contention in 5 years. acquiring him now would be retarded. pretty sure AA just wants to know what the price is as more info doesn’t hurt any GM. in AA we trust
You’re not very smart if you think that the Jays will only be in contention in 2016.
Kyle Drabek + J.P arencibia + Alvarez for Grienke + Gordon
Zach Grienke
Brandon Morrow
Brett Cecil
Ricky Romero
Zach Stewart/ Shaun Marcum
Royals would not do that trade. Not now, anyways.