4:21pm: In a chat today, Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch says he's been told the Cardinals are "not actively involved" on Valverde.
12:53pm: The Tigers are believed to have the biggest offer out to free agent reliever Jose Valverde, reports Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. The sides are not close to a deal, however. Morosi adds that the Cubs are not interested, but the Cardinals "could emerge as a suitor." Just depends on if they want to put most of their $6-7MM in one basket, I'd say. Yahoo's Tim Brown tweets that Valverde has offers from the Tigers, Cardinals, and one other team.
Last night on Twitter, Jim Bowden had this to say:
[Tigers GM] Dave Dombrowski told me tonight they are focusing on the back end of the bullpen and did not deny an offer to Valverde and a willingness to lose their #1 pick.
MLBTR's Ben Nicholson-Smith ran through the draft picks that would be at stake in a post Sunday. The Tigers would surrender the #19 overall pick to the Astros, while the Cardinals would have to part with #25. Ben noted that the Red Sox have not been connected to Valverde but they'd only have to give up the #107 overall pick.
Talk about misreading the market…had he accepted arbitration, he would of made a nice raise
Sounds like Varitek of ’10.
Sounds like Varitek of ’10.
Common mistake. Wagner did the same thing. Bet he left $2-3m on the table.
dumb
Well quite obviously because they weren’t trying to lower payroll (that was just some bs excuse), but trying to sell high on a couple of players (which they did). This should cement that pretty well.
I disagree: Granderson’s contract, even considering some regression, is pretty budget-friendly. His production was very likely going to be well worth the measly 5.5M he was going to earn in 2010, and probably even the 20M he was due in 2011-2012. This are exactly the kind of contracts the Tigers should embrace, not trade away.
I disagree: Granderson’s contract, even considering some regression, is pretty budget-friendly. His production was very likely going to be well worth the measly 5.5M he was going to earn in 2010, and probably even the 20M he was due in 2011-2012. This are exactly the kind of contracts the Tigers should embrace, not trade away.
Dear Cubs,
Get Kiko Calero.
Thanks,
Chicago.
Dear Jim Hendry,
Get Kiko Calero. Thanks.
Love,
Chicago
Dear Fans,
Get a clue.
Thanks,
Jim Hendry
The only thing Chicago needs is a GM who is a talent evaluator and a guy who can atleast attempt to find players who fit their system.
Just to clear things up, the Red Sox would give up pick 107, but the Astros would get pick 29 in the first round.
If Detroit signs him the Astros get the 19th pick or if the BoSox sign him the Astros get 107th pick based on his Type A status.
No because Valverde is ranked higher than Lackey and Scutaro. So they get the 29th pick.
They will end up with the 19th or etc. pick anything but the 29th(I hope not atleast), I don’t see Boston being in on him, Mahay would be a more logical option for Boston.
this is pitiful. I’d rather have granderson, the 19th overall pick, and zumaya/perry closing than this bum. I understood trading Jackson, they got a lot in return for him at his highest value ever. But Granderson, one of your few sources of power, leaders on the team, gold-glove centerfielder? I thought that was strictly payroll and it helped them pry scherzer AND schelereth from the Dbacks, by having the yanks send kennedy to the DBacks. NOW, they are getting an overrated closer for one year, who won’t save more than 25 games for them because they will suck this year, and losing a draft pick they could use for 6 years at a cheaper cost? STUPID!!!
Power is overrated, base hits, doubles, and the occasional triple wins more games then a homerun.
Not trying to say that your statement is incorrect because to an extent I agree with you, but homeruns fill a lot more seats than base hits and doubles.
I agree with that statement small ball can be a little boring but it still helps if you have solid hitting all around and they do have more then Granderson.
i agree. I more was arguing about the need to protect MCab in the lineup. And if im not mistaken, Curtis Granderson was one of the team leaders not only in Homeruns, but in all the categories you just listed. I’d even take endy chavez and Randy winn over Valverde for one year.
I would take a mop and a bucket over Valverde.
I would take a mop and a bucket over Valverde.
As a Cardinal fan Im torn. Valverde would represent a huge upgrade to the back of our bullpen (Franklin is not as good as his numbers from last years first half). Its something this team needs in a big way, and the longer Valverde goes into free agency the more of a bargain he becomes. However, do we need him more than a 4th outfielder that could play some CF, or a 5th starter? I dont know. But it would be awfully hard to turn away Valverde for the price he will surely go for.
that price would include the Cardinals first round pick. they need the farm system to produce some cheap players when pujols signs his next contract. while they will have extra picks from derosa and pineiro, i dont think they can afford to lose a first rounder. dotel and calero are still available. they would not cost a pick and might leave enough money for an outfielder or utility player like felipe lopez.
This is true, both Dotel and Calero are decent options. My opinion of Valverde, however, is very high. It isnt often that a top of a class closer is available for the money he could be signed for. My opinion of him may be higher than others, but having Franklin and Valverde at the back of the bullpen, for no more than you would have invested in either, would be pretty dominant. If the Cards bullpen falters down the stretch there would be no adding to it during the season, closers are hard to come by at the deadline and the birds will have little to no flexibility.
I understand the need for the first round pick and developing the system. However the 2 supplemental picks they will receive would go a long way to offset that issue.
in response to the 4th outfielder and 5th starter.
the 4th outfielder should go to a role from Nick Stavinona, who is pretty versetile as he can also be a 3rd catcher. Joe Mather is another 4th OF option but strictly for defense, Preferably id like Allen Craig as the 4th OF, occasional starter, but he might need another half season in AAA to cut down a few of those K’s.
the 5th starter is not even an issue. we have about 5 in house options already available in Mitchell Boggs, Blacke Hawskworth, Lance Lynn, Jaime Garcia, and PJ Walters. Makes more sense to build some competition between these guys to maximize production in the 5th spot. Not to mention it would be much cheaper.
I happen to agree for the most part. I dont see any need to add a 5th starter. I see that job coming down to a combination of Garcia and Hawksworth. I feel spending anymore money for a starter would be unjustified. I also agree that the 4th outfielder should come from within the organization. I dont see Stavinoa being that guy tho. In my opinion he just isnt very good and wouldnt be worth the at bats that the 4th outfield spot would command. I see Craig as being the only option to take the job, with Ludwick playing center when Rasmus was out of the lineup.
I see the back of the bullpen as the area that needs the most attention and Valverde fits the bill.
can ludwick even play centerfield? i mean he is a good, above average defender in right field, but that doesnt necessarily mean it would translate well into CF.
Ive heard that Tony is more comfortable with Ludwick there than Holliday. Ive seen games where he played CF and he didnt embarrass himself by any means, hes no Rasmus though.
wait so if Holliday were to be moved to RF, Ludwick were to be moved to CF..who plays LF? Id LOVE for Craig to play everyday LF, the guy is a hitting machine, but does have to work on his plate discipline. And where would they put Rasmus, he is an above average defender in Cf, why move something that isnt broken?
I think youre missing the point of what I was saying. The scenario that would put Ludwick in center would be when Rasums is not in the lineup. LaRussa is a huge advocate of playing match ups and giving players rest, this is where the 4th outfielder comes in. Last year Rasmus saw the bench vs. many left handed pitchers (he struggles with lefties). The better matchup when facing a left handed starter would be to put Ludwick in CF, Holliday will always play left i imagine, and Craig would play right. For most teams this wouldnt be a big issue but TLR doesnt seem to have that much faith in Rasmus to face lefties. Things may be different this year, i dont know, this is just how Tony has operated for the past several years.
Schumaker would be the backup centerfielder when Rasmus was out. He played 54 games in the outfield last year including 6 in center. He played 79 in center the previous year when he was a backup outfielder.
You can add the extra right handed bat in for Rasmus by moving Schumaker to center and putting a right handed hitter at second base.
This is true, both Dotel and Calero are decent options. My opinion of Valverde, however, is very high. It isnt often that a top of a class closer is available for the money he could be signed for. My opinion of him may be higher than others, but having Franklin and Valverde at the back of the bullpen, for no more than you would have invested in either, would be pretty dominant. If the Cards bullpen falters down the stretch there would be no adding to it during the season, closers are hard to come by at the deadline and the birds will have little to no flexibility.
I understand the need for the first round pick and developing the system. However the 2 supplemental picks they will receive would go a long way to offset that issue.
that price would include the Cardinals first round pick. they need the farm system to produce some cheap players when pujols signs his next contract. while they will have extra picks from derosa and pineiro, i dont think they can afford to lose a first rounder. dotel and calero are still available. they would not cost a pick and might leave enough money for an outfielder or utility player like felipe lopez.
I’d rather the Tigers grab old bums with power like Jermaine Dye, Rick Ankiel, and Russell Branyan at the cost of Valverde. THEY NEED CHEAP POWER PROTECTION TO PROTECT MCAB!!
Well as long as the headline isn’t Boston Signs Valverde…I’m good.
Lose Fernando Rodney and gain Valverde at around the same price, how can people not see the upside to this? Giving up a first rounder is serious business, but the Tigers are trying to balance building for the distant future and competing in 2011. A proven closer now versus an unproven draft pick who won’t see the majors for a few years. Also I’m not even going to get into the “Tigers are NOT shedding payroll” argument again because people obviously don’t listen
i’d agree with you if the tigers were grabbing Valverde for 3-4 years at 6MM per. But it’s looking like its a one-year deal and the Tigers WILL NOT be good this year in my opinion. It’s an off year. A-Jax should develop this year, and be ready in 2011. Sizemore, who they’re playing this year, probably will be better in 2011. Alex Avila, their power-hitting catcher of the future, will be splitting time with Laird this year. Cale Iorg, the SS of the future, has to split time with Adam Everett. And the two OFs Casper wells and wilkin ramirez? Are blocked by old guys with no range in Magglio and Carlos Guillen.
however, if valverde has a good first half, and they can get alot for him in prospects at the deadline, I might be more for it.
Cale Iorg is no longer the SS of the future. Guy can’t hit is weight. Scouts love his body and his glove but the bat isn’t developing. Daniel Fields, would better fit this role even though I see him getting moved to an outfield position eventually.
these were just a few examples. we have gaping holes in our lineup. Everett is not as bad, because at least he is good defensively. But Sizemore is a mystery. But our lineup has old guys who can’t hit for power, high avg anymore, and play pitiful defense in our OF. We need some pop in the lineup if we plan on contending, which we obviously do if we are planning on spending $ on Valverde. I hope when we’re not in contention next year, we are at least smart enough to trade Valverde to a team in desperate need of bullpen help and grab a nice haul for him.
i wouldnt even mind if they emphasized some defense in the OF. Sign Endy Chavez to minor-league deal, the guys a defensive stud and low-risk. Sign Branyan to DH/1B with MCab. And work out a deal that gets rid of malcontent Carlos Guillen.
Cale Iorg is no longer the SS of the future. Guy can’t hit is weight. Scouts love his body and his glove but the bat isn’t developing. Daniel Fields, would better fit this role even though I see him getting moved to an outfield position eventually.
i’d agree with you if the tigers were grabbing Valverde for 3-4 years at 6MM per. But it’s looking like its a one-year deal and the Tigers WILL NOT be good this year in my opinion. It’s an off year. A-Jax should develop this year, and be ready in 2011. Sizemore, who they’re playing this year, probably will be better in 2011. Alex Avila, their power-hitting catcher of the future, will be splitting time with Laird this year. Cale Iorg, the SS of the future, has to split time with Adam Everett. And the two OFs Casper wells and wilkin ramirez? Are blocked by old guys with no range in Magglio and Carlos Guillen.
Why are Red Sox mentioned in this post/thread? They’ve never been rumored or linked to Valverde. Houston would get the 19th or 26th pick if Tigers or Cardinals sign Valverde; Houston would get the 109th or nothing if Red Sox sign him or he gets hit by a bus?
Since the Red Sox have already given up their 1st and 2nd round picks, they would only have to give up a 3rd round pick to sign Valverde. Houston would get their 1st pick, LA would get their 2nd pick, and Toronto would get their 3rd pick.
kind of reminds me of the Sabathia, Teixeria, Burnett situation of last year. Makes sense, if your gonna sign 2 Type A’s and need a 3rd, might as well while he doesnt cost a high DP.
Because they lost both Saito and Wagner, leaving two gaping holes in the bullpen. Also with Delcarmen being non-reliable, he’d be a perfect fit.
Except that as pretty much a career closer, there could be some tension. The closer spot is taken (as well as our -next- closer, thank you daniel bard), the setup is taken (okajima/bard), so valverde would be what. Another 6-7 inning reliever just like delcarmen? I doubt he’s interested. Although I agree, that would make for a phenomenal bullpen.
Why are Red Sox mentioned in this post/thread? They’ve never been rumored or linked to Valverde. Houston would get the 19th or 26th pick if Tigers or Cardinals sign Valverde; Houston would get the 109th or nothing if Red Sox sign him or he gets hit by a bus?
Come on Tigers fans! I know you’re upset about them trading Grandy, but come on! Can you even imagine what it would be like to have a closer who could actually get the save without loading the bases?!? The way we’ve complained about Rodney and Jonesy the past few years, you’d think we’d be happy to get ANYBODY who can strike guys out and save games!!
They sold high on Granderson and feel like Austin Jackson can replace him right now. A reliable closer is a genuine need right now, and they always planned to spend there. They wanted Lyon or Rodney, but not at the money they got. To get Valverde for similar money (2-3 mil total more than Rodney, 1 year less than Lyon) is an obvious upgrade.
The Granderson deal was about the future without sacrificing too much of the now. Valverde would be about staying competitive now while still bridging the gap to the future.
Seriously, though – Fernando Rodney? You’d rather have Load-em-up Rodney at 2/$11m than Shut-em-down Valverde at 2/$13m? Come on, separate yourself from the emotion of the Granderson deal and think.
Mad at DD for wasting Mr. I’s money? Get over yourself. Imagine if we were still stuck with Randy Smith’s blunders – we could still be paying Juan Gonzalez $20m/year. Or did you forget that we went from the verge of being the worst team ever to a perennial contender without mortgaging a very promising future? The Renteria trade and the Robertson and Willis extensions were bad moves, but then you have the Polanco and Miggy trades and convincing Pudge to play here in the first place, not to mention drafting Verlander, Porcello, et al.
Oh and by the way, payroll will still be well over $100m, despite the fact that Michigan has the worst economy in the country. Disagree with the moves, but quit criticizing the spending. You think we’re in a worse situation than KC, Pittsburgh or Cleveland? Or how about Baltimore, who wants to spend but can’t get anyone to take their money? Quit whining and appreciate what we have.
No serious Tigers fan should be that upset about the trade of Granderson. We got a haul, and it was the right thing to do. I don’t think Valverde is our biggest need… I’d rather see them get a bat to protect Miggy, but I’m not going to get worked up about this until I see the numbers involved. The guys a good pitcher and he should help.
you got unproven potential, I wouldn’t call this a HAUL until they perform on the field. If Max S has the same year as 2009, tigers fans are not gonna be happy. There is a difference pitching in the NL West and pitching in the AL Central. That 9-11 record with a 4.15 ERA while pitching in the national league against weak opponents sure isn’t too impressive. Granderson >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jackson The only guy I think could really eventually make a nice solid impact someday is danny schlereth and he’s a reliever! But you’re right, Tigers should not be pissed at all about losing 2 ALL-STARS!
No man, sorry but it’s a haul. I didn’t make that up, respected baseball writers said the same thing when it happened. They traded 2 guys at the peak of their value, saved money, fulfilled needs, and got younger. Sure, we lost 2 all-stars but it was the right thing to do for us. Don’t get me wrong I loved Curt and Ejack too, but we definitely sold high on him. Scherzer is still developing, Austin Jackson can take over for Curt in the near future, and we got 2 young leftys to add to the bullpen.
sorry dude, i can appreciate your optimism but i agree with brian – you have no idea if this is going to work out. even respected baseball writers get it wrong. just ask the marlins how much they love all of our former can’t-miss prospects who were still developing; i really doubt there’s a whole lot of andrew miller and cameron maybin t-shirts flyin around down there.
i also agree about scherzer – the nl west has been the weakest division in baseball for almost the entirety of the last decade. my softball team could win a few games in the NL west. if the best some hotshot prospect can muster is a 4 something ERA in two years there, then yeah I’m worried.
also, never trust a yankee prospect. outside of robinson cano, they haven’t had a really good player come up through their system since the mid 90s.
I agree with what you have written for the most part. And I totally agree that Tigers fans seem to be constantly negative on these type forums. We were in first place almost the entire season last year and people were still negative almost all of the time. We did blow it in the end, which killed me, but a lot of people didn’t even enjoy the season. I don’t expect a pennant this season, but I think it will be fun to watch the transition and we still have the pitching to be competitive, especially in a weak central division. I’m still hyped up for the team!
Come on Tigers fans! I know you’re upset about them trading Grandy, but come on! Can you even imagine what it would be like to have a closer who could actually get the save without loading the bases?!? The way we’ve complained about Rodney and Jonesy the past few years, you’d think we’d be happy to get ANYBODY who can strike guys out and save games!!
They sold high on Granderson and feel like Austin Jackson can replace him right now. A reliable closer is a genuine need right now, and they always planned to spend there. They wanted Lyon or Rodney, but not at the money they got. To get Valverde for similar money (2-3 mil total more than Rodney, 1 year less than Lyon) is an obvious upgrade.
The Granderson deal was about the future without sacrificing too much of the now. Valverde would be about staying competitive now while still bridging the gap to the future.
Seriously, though – Fernando Rodney? You’d rather have Load-em-up Rodney at 2/$11m than Shut-em-down Valverde at 2/$13m? Come on, separate yourself from the emotion of the Granderson deal and think.
Mad at DD for wasting Mr. I’s money? Get over yourself. Imagine if we were still stuck with Randy Smith’s blunders – we could still be paying Juan Gonzalez $20m/year. Or did you forget that we went from the verge of being the worst team ever to a perennial contender without mortgaging a very promising future? The Renteria trade and the Robertson and Willis extensions were bad moves, but then you have the Polanco and Miggy trades and convincing Pudge to play here in the first place, not to mention drafting Verlander, Porcello, et al.
Oh and by the way, payroll will still be well over $100m, despite the fact that Michigan has the worst economy in the country. Disagree with the moves, but quit criticizing the spending. You think we’re in a worse situation than KC, Pittsburgh or Cleveland? Or how about Baltimore, who wants to spend but can’t get anyone to take their money? Quit whining and appreciate what we have.
I think this would be okay if they signed him. It’s just I’d be hesitant to give up my draft pick if I was trying to go younger.
This mystery team has me intrigued. Too bad the cubs couldn’t dump more of Bradley’s salary, Valverde would be great wearing cubbie blue. Marmol can go back to ruining the 8th inning instead of he 9th, ball four…take your base.
he was still perfect 11/11 save oportunities..and he was a pretty welcome improvement over Gregg.
Oh, Kevin Gregg!
I think the Tigers see this as a chanceto get a dominate closer at much less than market value. I think the deal will have to be for at least two years and $12 million to get Valverde who will be looking to avoid this scenario next year. I wouldn’t be upset with this move because while it may look it is a rebuilding year the central is very winnable and at least we don’t have to worry about who will close in 2011 when we have money to spend. Im pretty sure this would be the end of their spending but with this move making them closer to contention why not sign Johnny Damon to play left and lead-off at a market friendly contract for one year. I know it is highly unlikely but would satisfy a serious need for the Tigers. Question for Tigers fans?
Would you rather have Damon, Scherzer and Valverde or Granderson, Jackson and Rodney?
Why does Detroit need another old DH masquerading as a bad fielding outfielder? These call outs for players on the downside of their careers in the hopes of providing protection to Cabrera really aren’t that desirable. Can Detroit really afford to carry another Marcus Thames on the roster…oh, that’s right they have already hit their quota with Ordonez and Guillen. Detroit has made a conscious effort to put defense ahead of offense. It was only two short years ago they tried putting offense ahead of defense. Does anyone remember the results of that little experiment?
I defiantly understand where you coming from but I see their primary need right now is a lead-off hitter. I know Raburn would be an upgrade defensively but can we count on him to duplicate last season numbers when he will be facing righties as opposed to mostly lefties last season. Damon would give them a legit lead-off hitter and a lefty bat in a lineup that would most likely have one in Guillen. Damon can get on base and make a pitcher work. I wouldn’t mind seeing him on a one year deal. If they had Valverde why not go for it and had a bat on a one year deal and then try and go after say a Carl Crawford in 2011. I agree we don’t need “DH masquerading as a bad fielding outfielder” to protect Cabrera but I will take one as a lead-off hitter and at least he offers us some speed which is non-existent in the lineup. We know Mr. Illitch isn’t getting any younger and can see them signing someone on a one year deal under market value. The line-up is just too weak to be much better than .500 has is. Now is the time to get a cheap bat with everyone paying for defense.
I’ve been saying it all along… I think if Raburn gets an entire season of regular playing time in left he can put up some VERY solid numbers. Look what happened to Werth. I’m not saying Raburn will get that good, but for awhile Werth was just a 4th outfielder for the Dodgers. I can see Raburn having a similar transformation if given a shot.
Tigers fans, we need to accept that this is a developing year for us. A-Jax, Sizemore, Avila, Scherzer, Crosby, Schelereth need time. We get young again in 2011, kissing goodbye to the bad contracts of Willis, Bonderman, Robertson Ordonez(hopefully the option doesnt vest), Inge(although I think they should resign him). Hopefully, we can complete the cleanup by moving Guillen, who’s signed through 2011. If all goes well Dombrowski WILL make a serious play for Crawford to lead off next offseason, extend Verlander, and get Miggy some well-needed protection in a power bat like Adam Dunn, consistently powerful wherever he plays, whoever he plays for. Sizemore will become the scrappy 6-7 hole hitter to replace Polanco. Alex Avila becomes a Brian McCann-like, power hitting catcher. A-Jax becomes an excellent 2-hole hitter with 20-20 power/speed and stellar defense. Schelereth will become Detroit’s franchise closer, with Phil Coke, Joel Zumaya, and Ryan Perry setting him up. And Detroit will have a stellar young 1-5 starting rotation with Verlander, Scherzer, Porcello, Crosby, and Turner/Gallaraga/Blanton(cheap vet signed with playoff experience)
valverde simply hinders the process by blocking from a chance to close along with zumaya, coke (who could surprise many), and perry (also endless potential). I only like the deal if Tigers get some young talent for him at this year’s deadline, or if they get him for 2-3 years below market value. The main priority should have been moving Carlos Guillen’s salary. And btw, try not to let Magglio’s option vest this year. THANKS
I agree that the Tigers have some good young talent but your projections are a little high for Avila and Jackson. I know Avila showed some ability with the stick but we will see what happens when teams face him more than once and his defense still leaves a lot to be desired. I think the McCann comparision is a little premature. While i like Jackson he has never showed anything close to 20 hr. potential. I know power comes with age but he is already 23. I would only sign a veteran bat if we add Valverde just because the division is so winnable and it will still have a nice mix of young and old. I could see Dunn coming here but it is going to be extremely tough to get Crawford. While i think Crawford would be perfect for the Tigers give them speed at the leadoff position and great defense but everybody will be trying to get him and it will be very tough to stop him from going to the Yankees. Detroit has never signed a premier free agent. Maggs was coming off major surgery and no one offered Pudge anything near what the tigers did. I think they will have to build with their youth and add aging veterans at below market value to compete.
well the one thing the tigers have is with 50MM to spend, they certainly will have more than nearly everyone else. it more depends on how much they are willing to spend. Theyd have to give him increasingly better than alfonso soriano? I think so, considering he’s younger than soriano was, gets on base more, and plays better defense. They could get it done though with 8-years 150-160MM with incentives. People forget that yankees also have to resign Derek Jeter after next season, and yes they HAVE to. Tigers don’t really have anyone they HAVE to resign, not even inge. they do have to extend verlander though.
As a Cards fan, I have wished that Cards would get rid of both Ryans (Ludwick and Franklin) ever since they turned down chances to play for Team USA last March because they were newly appointed RF starter and closer respectively!! I don’t know if they would have helped to get a better result for Americans but their refusals seem very self-absorbed decisions. Made me disgusted and hate to see them wearing birds on the bat on their jersey. So send them to Colorado with a pitching prospect or two in exchange for Brad Hawpe. Then sign Dotel and Calero(beware of shoulder issues with him)then team would be all set to carry the season through to championship regardless how ( inexpensive) youngsters performed at 3rd base and 5th starter
As a Tigers fan, I would rather have the 19th pick than Jose Valverde – even if he was free!
What good is Valverde on the Tigers, they aren’t going anywhere with him or without him. They traded Grandy and EJax to get younger and cheaper, isn’t this the opposite?
Someone needs to tell them they don’t get anything for having the largest collection of above average relief pitchers unless they are able to score some runs and actually get the game to said relievers with a lead…