5:12pm: The Cubs and Blue Jays continue to discuss a Garza deal, Jim Bowden of MLB Network Radio and ESPN.com tweets. The Cubs seem to be prioritizing young starting pitching in talks about Garza, tweets Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com. One executive told Heyman that the Yankees and Blue Jays have what it takes to acquire Garza.
12:53pm: Trade talks for Cubs starter Matt Garza are heating up, writes David Kaplan of Comcast Sportsnet Chicago. Kaplan says the Blue Jays, Yankees, and Red Sox are involved, but the Cubs' asking price is "incredibly high."
Yesterday, MLBTR's Ben Nicholson-Smith took an in-depth look at Garza's contract situation; he's under team control through 2013. Cubs president Theo Epstein said on Friday that Garza is "exactly type of pitcher we want to build around," but he'll listen on everybody. So far this winter trade values have been established for Gio Gonzalez, Mat Latos, and Trevor Cahill, but all of them came with at least four years of team control.
Theo is going to lower the boom on somebody….
Kaplan says the Blue Jays, Yankees, and Red Sox are involved, but the Cubs’ asking price is outrageous and Theo must be “incredibly high.”
thats pitching now…like i said before what Gm’s are willing to pay for pitching right now makes me think everyone is high!!!
Jimmy McMillan (Founder of the Rent is Too Damn High Party) is going to get involved and fix Theo’s Wagon!
The Cubs didn’t give up that much for Garza really, so why is Theo thinking he’s going to get some “Princely” Sum here.
All GM’s tell Theo: You’ll get Nothing and Like It!
The Heck with Him!
Didn’t the cubs give the rays what are now 3 of their top 5 prospects?
Lee is the only person of significance the Cubs gave up… Archer is ranked all over the place ,as high as 3 on BA, as low as 11 by Sickles… Guyer is #7 according to Sickles, BA doesnt have him top 10… big jumps in those last 2 to accurately say they are top 5 prospects… as i said before, the only thing Chicago gave up thats worth a damn is Lee…
But, at the time, Archer was the Cubs #1, Lee was #4, Guyer was #10, and the catcher (whose name I am forgetting) was like #14 and rising fast cause he hit like crazy that year at AAA. Fuld was interesting cause he was willing to run into walls & play like his life depended on it. So now you want to say only Lee was worth a damn, but that’s bull, you can’t have it both ways. Prospects in these trades are expected have to be high on the lists, but then when the prospects don’t work out it was a crap deal. Spoken like a fan. The Cubs will get a little less for Garza than the Latos/Gonzalez deals though Theo is probably starting there. Will be more like the Cahill deal. Here’s what I think: Jays give up Marsinak, Thames, Alvarez, maybe a A-baller pitcher. Might be too much though. But I think it’s the Yankees who are the team who are going to deal. They don’t want to pay Kuroda 12 mil to find out he can’t hack it in the AL East. Garza is their second choice to Danks who the White Sox most likely blew any chance of dealing him by asking for the moon. Yankees give up: one of Banuelos or Betances, that OF Williams, and two of Warren, Phelps, Noesi. Or if it were me, I’d just take Williams & the final 3 pitchers & leave out Banuelos & Betances. Those three pitchers are ready to go ML starters in my opinion, and then Theo could dump all the former Cubs crap starters like Wells, Dempster, Zambrano, for whatever, and leave the younger arms, like Carpenter, Cashner, Samarzja in the pen to continue to develop. Williams if he keep progressing will arrive the same time as that new 2b Torreyes and the Cubs own OF Szcuzr in 2014 or so. I think Theor wants a little for now, and a little for later. Look sat the Reds trade.
”
ankees give up: one of Banuelos or Betances, that OF Williams, and two of Warren, Phelps, Noesi. Or if it were me, I’d just take Williams & the final 3 pitchers & leave out Banuelos & Betances”.
Wow….a reasonable trade scenario?
I think Betances +Williams +Warren is a very fair deal. If you wanted to switch out and make it Williams + Warren + Noesi + 2 of someone like Davis Adams/David Phelps/JR Murphy then they would definitely do it as well. I think they would be hesitant in including any more than 3 pitchers in a deal though just for depth purposes.
I think the Yankees would offer the best talent. They also have that Yankees mentality that they are a World Series team every year and need to gather talent aggressively. They are also a little weird about their own players. They value them when trading them, but using them for themselves is sometimes a different matter. I think a scenario with Williams, then the crew of pitchers, Warren, Phelps, and Noesi would be a good deal. The problem is in the perception. It would look like Theo didn’t get a sure fire top talent to the fans & some media. In my opinion, getting three guys who have been top 15 ranked for years (Noesi, Warren, Phelps) as they have moved through the system and are ready to pitch in the majors right now, & gambling on a low A ball OF who already has the OBP Theo loves & bats lefty is a great useful deal. It’s a trade with great odds of being successful for the Cubs. And the Yankees get a AL East tested, solid #2 starting pitcher on the cheap right now with two controlled years & no history of injury who would surely sign up for more years in the pinstripes. Then again, Theo will probably deal Garza to the Jays…
Agree for the most part. IMO Garza will go to whoever has the most MLB ready pitching. I don’t think it makes sense for the Cubs to deal Dempster or Zambrano b/c (1) their value is so low right now; (2) they desperately need pitching; (3) they will be FAs next year, so the dead wood comes off.
The Cubs can’t stop with Garza they also have to deal Soto and Marmol. If Bailey has as much value as he apparently does, Marmol may bring in a nice catch.
David Wright, Dillon Gee, Josh Thole,Bobby Parnell and a prospect for Matt Garza, Geovanny Soto and Carlos Marmol
Wright would make no sense for the same reason that Garza doesn’t. He earns a lof and they aren’t ready to compete right now. They need young and cheep talent that can develop and grow together and once they become competitive then spend on FA’s and star players via trades.
No it would take the Mets’ whole farm to get those 3
Oh that will fix the Mets right up! Marmol for Wright!
I realize more is involved, but if I were a Mets fan and we got Marmol and the Cubs got Wright. Mets fans would be outside Alderson’s Office with Pitch Forks and Torches!
You’re going to get yourself banned posting the same crap repeatedly…
Why wouldn’t it make sense to deal Dempster or Z? Demp can probably get you a borderline top 100 prospect. A good scout can still find great prospects not on a top 100 list. Z just needs to go and if they can save some money then do it.
Think my comment didn’t post. Basically I said if you deal Dempster or Z, yeah you may get something back…something. But then who pitches? Before Wood they had a 3 pitcher rotation with Dempster, Zambrano, Garza. If they deal Garza the Demps and Z and Wood, which is inadequate for a MLB team
Mistyped- if you deal Garza they only have dempster, Z, and wood. Good luck filling those holes.
Are they that high?
I just looked it up
Two players are over 25
While I like Sam Fuld, he’s ok and probable not a prospect.
Lee looks like a player and maybe the other player traded (a pitcher)
I don’t know what Theo can expect here.
Plus, if he trades Garza, who’s left in the rotation, besides Zambrano?
It doesn’t really matter what the Cubs gave up. They gave up quite a few players they probably wish they could have back. Even if they’re not star prospects, they are all useful players, incl. Guyer and probably Chirinos.
But yeah remember the Mariners gave up less when they got Cliff Lee than when they traded him 6 mos. later? So it’s a whole new ballgame.
2 of the Rays top 5…
Hak-Ju Lee is good and thats
about it. Brandon Guyer? Was only decent in the minors, 25 yr old 4th or 5th Outfeilder.
Chris Archer? Had a 130:86 K:BB last year, not very good. Robinson
Chirinos? 27 year old backup catcher who hit .259 in AAA last year. Sam
Fuld? Very good defensivly, but he hit .240 for the Rays. The Cubs made
out great in that deal. It was essentially Lee for Garza. Guys like Guyer, Chirinos and Fuld were all expendalble because they didnt have much of a future with the Cubs since they have some good OF and C prospects still in the minors ala Matt Sczcur and Wellington Castillo.
No that’s just wrong. Guyer was ranked 10th for the Cubs and Sczuzr hadn’t even played yet or had less than 100 at bats in that first quarter season. Chirinos was a hot catching prospect at the time, didn’t do so hot last year. Archer was a top flight pitching prospect. Lee was thought to be excellent, but his hitting at higher levels was questioned. Lee is proving himself, the rest, like most prospects, fell off. Archer now is said to be a possible future closer for the Rays. You’re looking at the trade after the fact, a year later. When it was made, it seemed to everyone that the Cubs gave up a ton. Don’t rewrite history now that the trade didn’t work out like the way many thought it would..
It doesn’t matter who they gave up when they got him…it matters how well he performed last season and how clubs expect him to perform in the future.
It doesn’t who the Cubs gave up to get him…what matters is his production from this past season and how well clubs expect him to produce in the future.
and on the seventh day they said….Amen
Hey The_BiRDS, I sure your aware of if Your team has what others want,why not ask for the Moon! If you don’t get someone to give you what you want ,you have 2 choices,go to someone else or Keep him ,If the Cubs could scored runnd for him he would have been a-Lot better off ,record wise,now that said ,if I was Garza <I'd Pray for a trade,since Theos "Rebuilding,Looks like SWISS Cheese @ best,Right now,with ,rejects & players just off injury,don't apear Garza will get any better run support for himself next year if he is still there! So If I was Garza,I'd Diffently Pray for a trade!! A Die Hard Cub Fan,being REALISTIC!!!!
wat the heck was that all about?
Is it me or is it weird that Theo is talking trade with the Sox and Yanks?
why is it weird?
Theo knows the Sox system and the Sox need pitching
the Yankees could use a starter, and have the pieces to get a deal done
It’s probably a little weird to Theo that he’s finally allowed to talk to the Yankees…he’s never really been gotten to do that before.
Hopefully he gets Banuelos, Betances, and more from the Yanks. I could live with a gutting of their system for Garza. His spitting doesn’t scare me.
Cashman can’t live with that so keep dreaming.
I’m counting on Hal getting involved. He was saying he still wasn’t satisfied with the rotation after CC signed.
don’t think they would even give up both the B’s for an Ace… which Garza isn’t
It would be Banuelos. Betances is back to walking the park…
Still a top 30 prospect for a reason (see the low hits/9 and k/9).
The key with Garza is that he only has 2 years of control so they will only get half the package that Gio and Latos were worth.
The key with Garza is that he only has 2 years of control so they will only get half the package that Gio and Latos were worth.
keep hoping. That package would be made for one man, King Felix. Garza, in my eyes, is a solid #3, then again what do I know
c.c. and garza would be a very nice 1-2….the yanks would have the best 1-2 in the division{except for maybe devil rays} and boston fans can argue the “chicken bucket boys” all they want but it would be a losing feat……i nominate Robert Andino as mayor of boston
Garza is nice, but I wouldn’t trade one of the Bs for him. I think Hector Noesi can do more than hold his own as a starter. I don’t see Garza as a legitimate #2. Price, Shields/ Beckett, Lester is a way better 1,2 punch than CC, Garza. Garza is probably the Rays 4th starter, just shows that hes not a #2
i think you may be are underestimating garza a little bit…what im getting at is consistancy…..i think cc/garza would be more of a consistant 1-2….beckett/lester ….you really don’t know….they are kind of odd..its almost like they are awesome and ummmmwtf????? all in the same paragraph
Not much apperantly
i hope Alex the great gives up the farm to land this guy, hes solid but nothing spectacular, well considering what Theo is going to demand.
Not much apperantly
Not weird, it’s smart. Two teams that can afford prospects and need starting pitching.
Theo talking to both teams would hopefully drive up the price.
The only thing that feels weird is having a Cubs GM who has a plan of how to build a winning team.
It makes sense to me, they have the best prospects and are looking for a pitcher like Garza.
It makes sense to me, they have the best prospects and are looking for a pitcher like Garza.
So….. think that Garza could bring us 2 MLB ready players and also prospects? I’m thinking something like Garza and Brett Jackson for Ellsbury, Daniel Bard, Connor Jackson and a PTBNL?
Keep dreaming…
I’m sorry, but Garza is NOT an ace. He shouldn’t, and won’t, bring anything similar to what you would get for a true ace.
I don’t disagree with your assessment of Garza, but if you don’t think the Cubs are going to get a haul of at least two top ten prospects plus other players you are delusional. The Cubs don’t have to trade him. Either the Cubs make someone over pay or they extend him. They have all the leverage to to start a bidding war between interested teams.
Who says Garza WANTS an extension, especially if Theo has made it clear he is in rebuild mode and will be trading off assetts? Why would Garza want to stay around for that?
let’s be CLEAR. All this talk about Theo wanting to build around a guy like Garza is just talk. Theo has a gameplan to rebuild and he knows that the fastest way to do so is to use his best trade piece to get some impact type prospects. Certainly doesn’t mean he will be able to rob a team but he knows, at minimum, he’ll get a good return. It would make ZERO sense for them to extend Garza because they are at least 3 or 4 years away from being contenders and I don’t see them offering Garza more than a 4 or 5 year deal. What would be the point?
Any reports to the contrary?
No reports…just common sense and history.
Some in the Chicago media feel by 2014 with the new playoff system in place the Cubs will be competitive enough to have a solid shot at the postseason. That’s less than 3 years from now.
I thought the new playoff system was going to take place no later than 2013
Yeah you’re right.
Dude, you trade with the Sox, you demand Middlebrooks is in the deal and they will never trade Ellsbury.
HAHAHA you couldnt get Ellsbury for Garza straight up .. I want to be in you Fantasy League
What a difference a year makes.
Most fan trade ideas make no sense for one team or another. Congratulations: your trade makes no sense for EITHER team.
haha well said!
No
I just literally fell out of my chair laughing
Theo to Ben Cherrington, “That deal is okay, but if you threw in Conor Jackson that might just put it over the top for us”
Lots of people like Conor Jackson incl. Billy Beane. Maybe will trade Cole for Conor Jackson?
Did people at work realize you’re not getting anything done today.. because there is nothing funny about work.
I did get a strange look from one woman walking down the hall
no thank you. I like Garza, but would not give up Ellsbury.
Ellsbury’s next contract: over Crawford’s deal???
Depends on what he does between now and then
He hits another 30+ and keeps around his usual .300 and 40-50 steals and we’re screwed (I’ll gladly take it though).
I hear Boras is referring to Jacoby as his “retirement villa”.
It wouldn’t surprise me if that were the truth when you’re talking about Boras…
If he hits 9 and has < .360 OBPs again he probably gets extended for just a moderate amount of money.
You guys were saying the same thing about Lowrie last year.
OK? I don’t even know what you’re trying to imply. What ellsbury gets paid does depend on what he does between now and when he hits free agency…
No way, he’s only had one good year and was injury prone up until last year. The Sox were thinking of trading him last year.
He was injured and missed significant time once, and the Sox have said all along that weren’t going to trade it him, it was fans who wanted them to trade him.
But I’ve told you all this before, so I don’t expect it to make any difference to you.
The Cubs don’t have anyone or anything that the Red Sox would be interested in trading Ellsbury (who lead baseball in WAR) for, and you offer Garza? lol
One good year does not make a player.
I ought to slap you for suggesting such blasphemy.
Ellsbury’s great. And his contract will soon match that greatness. The Red Sox could have the most expensive OF without having a RF…
The Red Sox aren’t a team to trade away a star player because he’s going to get expensive…
Ellsbury could be another Sizemore.
The Grady Sizemore who was possibly the best centerfielder in baseball, who put up 30.3 WAR from 2004-2009? I’d be THRILLED if I was a Red Sox fan.
Doubt the Cubs would give up Brett Jackson since they officially announced a rebuild.
Plus, I think the Cubs value him much more than other clubs. We’d be lucky to get Rizzo of the Padres for him. Actually, i don’t think the Padres would even do that.
Is this even news? Anyone can create a rumour with the Jays, Sox and Yanks involved. In fact, it happens on a regular basis.
I’ll believe it when I see it but to me he’s a high end #3 on a solid staff so I’m not sure what all the fuss is about.
He’d be a number solid 2 on the Yanks or Jays. That may drive up his value to the Cubs..
I think he’s probably #2 on the Sox too. Lester is their #1, but Buchholz and Garza are pretty much on equal footing.
No way. Garza on equal footing with Buchholz, no way. Injuries & successful seasons. Look it up. Garza is way more dependable. Maybe 3 years from now you could say that but not now.
If we didn’t think the info was legit, we wouldn’t post it.
Hey Tim, any idea of what names are being thrown around by these teams?
Your assessment is just plain wrong.
Cashman and Epstein can work it out since they are in opposite leagues now, not competing in same divison.
just like AA and Epstien.
Rays should offer the package they got for Garza back to Cubs except for Lee and go with a 9 man rotation!
Lee is the only player i miss from the original Garza deal.
I honestly don’t think we would have the pieces to get a deal done. The cubs could use a lot really, but I have no idea what their “sweet spot” is in terms of prospects they are looking at. Surely a high upside starter like Banuelos or Betances would be top of the list. They would want Montero of course for a high impact bat and maybe a couple of lower-level prospects with high ceilings. Bah…trade talks make my head hurt :(.
Can Montero play 1B? I could see a package centered around him coming back in a Garza deal.
I don’t know if he can now. Could he learn? Perhaps, but I honestly don’t see them dealing him as his bat this year is an important piece for us. I was thinking more of a deal centering around Betances with other young prospects like Mason Williams, Hector Noesi and Austin Romine. But that might not be enough.
The Yanks have more than enough to get Garza, the problem is he’s over priced right now. Garza is worth 2 B and 1 C prospect. He is only under control for 2 years. Theo knows if he doesn’t get a good package for him now he won’t be able to trade him next year. If he doesn’t get the package he wants then he will try to resign him like the Sox did with Danks.
The cubs don’t have to unload Garza, they can afford to extend him several years if they want. This isn’t a situation where a small market team has to dump one of their star players because they need to free up payroll. Cubs have all the leverage in these talks. Garza would be a solid number 2 on any contending team, and a solid number 1 on a non-contending team.
They should ask for the moon in exchange for Garza. If nobody bites, the cubs extend him and build the team around him going forward.
No way Theo deals him to Yanks.
This so smart, talk to three of the AL East teams and make them bid against each other. This is the only way you will get above and beyond what Garza is worth. Someone is going to overpay and overpay big.
No. I doubt it goes anywhere. Garza is NOT the kind of pitcher that the Yanks or Sox are going to empty the farm for regardless of who else is involved. This is NOT Roy Halladay here.
Exactly. Halladay wanted to go to Philly and nowhere else. Auction bidding is a wonderful thing. Doesn’t matter what the other deals were, Tor traded Brett Wallace for Gose and some think he’s a big trade chip now, it matters what the 2nd best offer is…
Those GM’s are too smart for that. Maybe Boston’s new GM (only because he’s an unknown), but I can’t see the Yanks and Jays falling into that trap.
I’m a Rays fan, I saw a whole lot of Garza. He was a Red Sox killer but he was bad in Yankee Stadium so even if he makes 6 starts against Boston a year which he probably wouldn’t, he’s a better fit for the Red Sox than Yankees. He’s a little too HR prone for Yankee Stadium.
Ground ball rate shot up last year. He’s not a fly all pitcher any more.
The Yankees’ lineup kills him so he’s a good fit for the Red Sox? I agree.
He changed his pitch selection and relies MUCH more on his breaking pitches than his fastball now. He raised his GB% considerably and is much less homer prone because of it.
I have to wonder if the Sox could use part of the theoretical Theo compensation in a deal for Garza. And no, I’m not saying “Garza for Theo.” These trades are usually a couple of solid prospects along with one or more sleeper prospects. Instead of the sleeper prospect the trade from the Sox could be prospects plus Theo.
Also I’d say the Cubs are about 3 years away from being serious competitors, maybe 2 if Theo gets all the right breaks. Boston’s best potential is in the lower levels so maybe a guy like Bogaerts who is 2-3 years away could be a piece to land Garza.
I’m nearly certain Bogaerts’ name would come up at some point (probably one of the first names mentioned), but I’d rather get a pitcher not named Garza and keep Bogaerts if he is a sticking point, even if this other (hypothetical) pitcher isn’t as good as Garza.
I’ve also thought about the idea of adding the Theo compensation to a Garza trade, but while it seems like a good idea in theory I’m not sure how well it would work in practice. They would almost have to agree to a trade in theory and then decide which players would be taken out of the trade and replaced by the Theo compensation.
bogaerts in a garza deal would be a catastrophe
This.
If the Sox were planning to trade Bogaerts, they should’ve gone after Latos or Gio.
I wouldn’t send Bogaerts in a Gio deal either; Latos, maybe.
The Sox have good prospect depth (if no real slam-dunk blue-chipper), but most of it is on the left side of the infield, where they’ll need the help pretty soon. Not sure they match up well on Garza, though the fact that he’s in arb means a lower AAV, giving them an advantage as they try to limit their luxury tax spending.
I can imagine something like Lavarnway and Renaudo possibly getting it done, depending on what the Cubs think of the former’s defense, but Boston might have to instead replace Lavarnway with Bogaerts, loathe as they might be to do so.
For me it starts and ends with Bogaerts from the Sox. They are really lacking at pitching depth where the Cubs need help, and I’d expect more in position players to make up for that.
Ahahhaha. Bogaerts in a deal for Matt Garza?
Since the Tigers are saying Turner is available for Garza, you bet. If you aren’t giving up Bogaerts +, then there’s no point in talking. I’m not saying it’s fair, but the market dictates value, not you or me.
Ah yeah, I highly, highly, highly doubt they trade one of their best prospects (arguably their best according to some people) with probably the most upside of anyone in that system for 2 years of a #2 pitcher
That’s fine, then they simply don’t get Garza. See how this works? Turner is probably a top 20 prospect this year, give or take – higher ranked than Bogaerts on most every list I’ve seen. He’s available for Garza.
Okay?
I don’t want them to trade for Garza in the first place. I surely don’t want them to overpay for him either.
Bogaerts and Gary Sanchez are both similar players except for their positions. Same age, same level and similar offensive numbers during their 1st taste of the Sally league. Should be interesting to see what happens.
that’s a good point, especially in light of what i just said about sanchez
the biggest difference is that while both may move off premium positions, one moves to 3B and the other to 1B. that’s significant
yes, but I’ve heard that Sanchez has a very high chance of sticking at C. Words not said about Montero from the beginning.
interesting. i remember reading that a scout said he thought sanchez was worse defensively than montero. gonna have to look for that
I have a hard time believing that the Jays have much interest in Garza for the price. AA and the Jays have a policy to go after players who are under control to the team for a good period of time. Since next season is 12 and Garza is under control to the far off date of 13 it seems very unlikely that AA would want him unless the price was much lower. The Jays aren’t close enough to give up quality young arms for a year or two!
Absolutely. Unless someone in the Jays system believes that Garza’s sustainable and willing to extend on a team-friendly salary, there’s pretty much no chance he’ll become a Jay.
But even the suggestion of a Blue Jay “big player” is something to be excited about, despite the low likelihood. It would be cool to have Garza in the rotation…
Oh he would have to sign a long term deal. No GM in the game will trade for him without it. He’s a FA in 2014. I agree, probably not likely for Toronto.
I see AA being interested in Garza for the “right price”. He won’t worry about extending Garza because of the draft picks he will receive as compensation and the replacements he has in the prospect funnel.
However, I doubt AA parts with any prospect not on the 40-man roster to acquire Garza. That leaves D’Arnaud (most unlikely), Snider, Drabek, Thames, Cooper, Carreno, Beck, Sierra, McDade, & Hechaverria.
It will come down to how badly Cubs want to shed Garza’s salary.
At the current rate being returned for cost effective pitching in MLB, the Sox are foolish not to dangle Lester and/or Bucholz and do their own 4 for 1 trade. I mean seriously if guys like Latos and Gio, who are good but very unproven, get what they have gotten what would proven guys like Lester and Buch bring back.
So they can what? Try to get an ace back for Lester? They have no issues to address in the lineup requiring something so drastic, and you wouldn’t give up an ace for a closer, so why would the Sox benefit from dangling Lester?
I said or Bucholz. Deals all being the same the Sox would look a whole lot better with either of hauls the A’s or Padres just got in their deals.
I disagree. The Sox commit over 160 million dollars to winning now. They are not the A’s or Padres. Would it be nice to give a shot in the arm to the farm so they will be good five years from now? Of course, but unlike the A’s and Padres, them, and their fans, have a ton committed to winning now. Teams in win-now mode don’t trade guys they consider front-end pitchers in the rotation. That’s literally the only strength to the entire Sox pitching staff. They have no legitimate closer, no proven middle relief in the east except Bard and Aceves, and no back-end of the rotation, and none of those things are what you trade a guy like Buchholz for.
So would it be for offense? Because they’re long-term at first, second, left, they have prospects for right and they’re not replacing CF. I just don’t see a point to be honest, unless you just feel the Sox should rebuild or Buchholz isn’t that good because, this would be a rebuilding move.
You sure you aren’t a Yanks fan trolling?
Jon Lester is great and has a ton of heart but this will be the third year he is being asked to become the ace of this staff, he has yet to take that step and even regressed last season. Jon is still a #2 starter and is not an ace. The Sox rotation is led by 3 #2 style pitchers at the front of their rotation they don’t have a true ace.
John Lester has been the 9th pitcher in baseball since ’08 according to fWAR (even including his ‘down’ year this year). I know fWAR isn’t the be-all-end-all but you don’t put up the kind of numbers that get you into that category by being a “#2 pitcher.”
Pitchers who produced less WAR than Lester from 2008-2011:
Jered Weaver
Clayton Kershaw
Cole Hamels
Matt Cain
Taking out his 2011, which was his worst season by far, the following pitchers produced less WAR than Lester from 2008-2010:
Dan Haren
Felix Hernandez
Adam Wainwright
The other four I listed above
Lester is easily one of the top ten pitchers in the MLB, that makes him a #1 by any standard and an ace by most.
i don’t think he’s easily top 10. weaver and kershaw for example have leapt forward in the last 2 seasons, so a 4 year review by itself doesn’t tell the story
lester’s a top starter with an ace pedigree, but 2011 should have the red sox a bit concerned
his walk-rate the last 2 seasons has jumped a full 2%. that was fine in 2010 while he was striking out a career high, but his Ks and swing-strike% fell off significantly in 2011
his progression on these fronts was by design, you’ll remember. the sox encouraged him to draw contact and limit walks at the expense of Ks early on. 2009 was the peak of this progression, as his walks were under 3 per 9 and his Ks per 9 were close to 10
since then, there have been issues. and in 2011 his command completely abandoned him at times
a healthy and top-form jon lester is the best pitcher the red sox have and is, i would say, a top 10 pitcher. but i think at this point it’s on him to prove again that he deserves to be in that group
You make no sense. You say Lester and Buchholz aren’t #1s and imply that is what the Sox need. And yet you think trading one of them will fill that need (they’ll bring back a #1)? Now I’m certain you’re a troll.
lester isn’t the superman most Sox fans make him out to be but he most certainly is a true ace. 3 consecutive seasons of 5 WAR or better doesn’t get erased because he had a “below average” year by HIS (or “ace” status). If CC (God forbid) had an off year it wouldn’t erase him as a ace automatically.
It’s weird, but I think there are probably more Sox fans who say that “Lester’s nothing more than a #2; what the Sox need is a real ace!”
Most of the fans I talk to have said some variation of that at one point or another at least.
Yeah, well….varying degrees of being an ace. That’s like saying Jessica Alba isn’t super hot because she’s not better looking than Brooklyn Decker. Halladay might be > Lester but Lester is still > than all but maybe 5-12 pitchers in baseball.
PS: That’s all argumentative. Please, no bashing about my tastes in women…ugh.
Haha, definitely not; I might prefer Alba, but how can you fault a man for liking Decker?
And honestly it wouldn’t surprise me if the same people who tell me Lester isn’t an ace are telling you that he’s the best pitcher in the world. Boston fans are ‘funny’ and when they want to rag on the team, or think the team needs to add someone, Pedro wouldn’t be good enough, but when they are arguing with a fan of another team about who has the better player Wakefield would be right up there with Sabathia.
Maybe that would make sense if they weren’t one of the best teams in baseball with one of the best farm systems.
Mat Latos and Gio Gonzalez are more proven (and younger) than Clay Buchholz, who coming off an injury-shortened season has made more than 16 MLB starts in only one season.
How are Latos and Gio any less proven than Buchholz who has had only 1 solid year this far and had a serious enough back problem last year that he missed significant time?
Also, Sox and Yanks are perennial buyers. We don’t trade young stars for more prospects. What’s the point? It’s about sustaining success and young stars are the best ways to do it. No way would they trade Lester and Buch for unproven prospects.
The Pads and CUbs on the other hand are rebuilding and thus MUST collect as many prospects as possible and hope they pan out.
Latos and Gio are unproven? Wut.
garza to kansas city for yuni b! As fun as it’s gonna be to watch the cubs be the worst team in the Central for a couple years its very scary that they don’t have jim hendry preventing them for being good still.
The price tags for the Gio’s & Garza’s of the world is preposterous. Hopefully AA walks away & deals when the market is more favourable.
Not in a million are they getting Lawrie for Garza.
I’d have to think he and d’Arnaud are off limits.
Agreed, he became more of a even pitcher in the sense of pitch selection since he started using his slider more instead of just reaching back and gunning it in.
I like Garza, he’s arguably the best available pitcher in terms of tradeability, but he’s nothing more than a #2 pitcher, maybe a #2b. His 2011 season looks like an outlier as it currently stands, thus teams would be paying a premium for something he may not be, which, funny enough, correlates with his move out of the AL East.
Call me crazy, but I’d rather overpay for a Hamels or a Matt Cain than pay equal value for a Garza.
It’s impossible to call 2011 an outlier because he completely redeveloped how he pitches. He is much more slider focused than fastball focused now.
I thought people were just boasting that, claiming “I need to watch baseball,” but you sir are correct. It’s still an outlier, but there’s a higher probability that it can be repeated.
That said, just because “he learned how to pitch” doesn’t make more 5+ WAR seasons absolute. He’s still a #2 pitcher until he does it again in my eyes.
I think you’re absolutely correct.
you have no idea what youre talking about. it isnt an “outlier” because he’s a totally different pitcher now. He started using his slider a LOT more and its a very effective pitch. he was 14th in MLB in WAR which makes his value huge, even for 2 years. A team like the Sox, Yanks, or Jays can easily extend him also. 5 years, 70 million is a bargain and is all it would take
Yeah I’m sure going from the power bats and HR friendly parks of the of the AL East to the lowly NL central had nothing to do with it.
Yeah, because you know, there haven’t been any championship teams in the NL Central in the past couple years. Oh, and the NL Central wasn’t home to several of baseball’s most feared sluggers either. Pujols, Braun, Votto, Fielder…
But yeah, the lowly NL Central pales in comparison to the almighty Yankees, who are stuck starting charmers like Eduardo Nunez because their billion-dollar infield can’t seem to stay healthy.
He also pitched against the Pirates and Astros a lot.
The 5 teams in the AL East scored a collective 3900 runs in 2011. The 6 teams in the NL central scored 4097. Thats 780 vs 682 avg runs/season.
The NL Central is a cakewalk compared to the AL East.
3 of the top 4 players in HR in MLB hit in the AL East.
You mock the Yankee’s infield, but that infield (A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Tiexeira) had 352 RBI.
Genius… except that the AL has 9 batters while the NL has 8. That means the AL East averaged 86.66 runs per batter while the NL Central averaged 85.25. You’re right, massive difference there…..
Dude, if you want to comment on something, it is generally a good idea to read the entire conversation. You know, to get some background.
Whether its the DH, or the ballparks, or better players, somehow the AL East piles on many MANY more runs than the NL Central. Which explains why Garza had a better year (than his years in Tampa). Thats what we were talking about.And I don’t agree with the premise that one division has more batters. You face 9 batters in both. The pitchers aren’t as good, true, but not to the extent that they are meaningless. And with the PH and double switch, the pitchers don’t even hit in their slot half the time. You’re 8/9ths math uses warped logic.
Of course it uses warped logic… but not nearly as warped as yours, which was my point.
My logic was perfect. A 6 team division has 162 more games, many more innings, at exactly a ratio of 6/5. Using that math to calculate average runs makes perfect sense. It’s only the most common sense thing in the world (especially considering I added the runs of each teams to get those numbers in the first place).
The fact is, the AL East is a much more offensively powerful, as they average almost 100 runs per year more than the NL Central. It should be no surprise to anyone that garza performed better on the cubs then he did on the Rays.
Saying he threw his slider a LOT more (9% above 2010) is not enough to say he’s a new pitcher and you can’t say with any certainty that he’s arrived yet until he does it in 2012.
Also, saying that a team like the Yanks or Sox can easily extend him has nothing to do with what they give up to trade for him. If Garza was ALREADY signed for 5 more years at $70 mil then that would be a different story. The Cubs don’t control him for more than 2 years so what the other team does to keep him any longer doesn’t factor into the trade discussion.
If teams are willing to talk to Garza PRIOR to a trade about an extension then that factors into his DESIRABILITY but not the value the Cubs will get for him.
Ok Cub fans, Garza is very talented but no one is giving you 3 of their top 4 prospects or anything like that
Red Sox: Ask for Middlebrooks, 1 or 2 above average prospects and 1 or 2 intriguing projects.
Yankees: Ask for ONE of their big 3 prospects and build the deal around that guy like with the Sox
Blue Jays: Same idea with that catcher who I can never remember how to spell his name.
There will be no Montero/Banuelos and Batences packages or Ellsbury or Lawrie. Garza is good but be reasonable.
Jays aren’t giving up D’Arnaud. I think Syndergaard is the best prospect you can expect from them, with a few other good names thrown in like McGuire, etc.
I think it is funny with everyone defending their team that Garza could be possibly traded to. Oh, he is not worth that… Oh, no way this guy can be included in the deal. The bottom line is that Garza is going to make any pitching rotation a lot better. The Blue Jays know it. The Red Sox know it. And most certainly the Yankees know it. On the other side of the coin is that these teams know their competitor gets much better by adding Garza. The Cubs do not have to trade him, so they have the leverage to create this bidding war. If they don’t get what they want, then check again in July… or extend him.
I think the funnier part is people slobbering all over their prospects rather than use them to acquire an experienced, high-end, durable starter. I don’t give a hoot which Jays prospects would be included from the farm. I just don’t want to finish in 4th again. *sigh*
Its many of those prospects that might one day carry the team out of the 4th place well (*might*). But I assure you Garza won’t. Even with him the Jays still have the 4th best pitching in the division.
I know Garza won’t put us into playoff contention single handedly, but I’d like the look of Romero/Garza/Morrow/Alvarez+#5.
Though truth be told, I’d rather they use the farm system for Pineda, or MadBum…
you mean july as in when the cubs are officially out of the playoff hunt, other teams can just sign the oswalts, jacksons, etc and not give away a ransom for a number 3 pitcher. they can improve their rotation and hang onto prospects
In what world do pitchers with a fWAR of 5.0 qualify as a #3?
id bet u anything that if a trade with the yankees happens, montero AND one of those 2 pitchers will be included.
Why? Montero isn’t sticking at catcher, he’s never played 1B, and the Cubs are in the National League.
I’m a Romine fan. Montero is a great hitter at C but his value at 1B is greatly diminished.
Cubs are asking for something similar to Gonzalez/Latos deal. If it’s not a highway robbery then there isn’t a deal. We’re not trying to get rid of him if you don’t want to pay the price of 2 top prospects plus some mlb ready players then we can easily sign him to an extension. EpsteinHoyer have already said that Garza is the type of player you build around. Whether that’s with prospects in a package or not.
Cubs have 4 shots at trading Garza: this offseason, 2012 trade deadline, next off season and 2013 trade deadline. They can wait until they get an offer they’re comfortable, and the other team is a little uncomfortable giving up, getting…
If the Cubs want to trade Garza the time is now, next year he will become David Wright with only 1 year of control, most teams won’t give you much for him.
d’Arnaud Norris and Cecil?
I would pass on that if I were the Jays. Garza is good, because he’s no true ace. Jays shouldn’t move d’arnaud for anything less than a legit #1 (or someone controllable that projects as such).
And I would pass on the Jays completely if I were the Cubs.
You just wouldn’t want to get Jedi Mind Tricked by AA. D’Arnaud isn’t going to the cubs.
Exactly since AA is too skilled at this kind of thing and the Cubs wouldn’t get anything of note, I’d pass and move on to another team.
the Jays thank you for that lol
The Jays aren’t the nationals. They wont go for this type of deal
Yankees not buying it
I realize Garza is not Gio, but I would have to imagine it would take a top #3 prospect, and two of the top #10-#15 to get it done. I believe Theo would prefer the package was centered around a pitching prospect as well.
Perhaps the Tigers are a match with Turner?
Would you do a trade for Banuelos, Mason Williams, Adam Warren and Romine?
I dont see a need for Montero on a NL Club….
As a Cub fan, I would in a heartbeat, but I think that’s a pretty steep price.
I like Banuelos and Warren though, as the main center pieces, maybe with a Tyler Austin thrown in…
I love Warren. He doesn’t have the press like the other guys but I think he’s going to be a big solid 200 IP #3 type.
Austin is interesting too but we have to see what he does at the higher levels.
– Romine and Betances not Man Ban, Garza is only worth 2 Bs and 1 C.
What about David Wright, Mike Pelfrey and Josh Thole to the Cubs for Matt Garza, Goevanny Soto and Josh Vitters???
I heard via twitter that the Tigers are involved and are willing to trade Turner. If they could get a steal like Turner, Smyly and Paulino the Cubs should take it and run.
Please dont do this detroit…
No, do it!
yes detroit, this is the droid youre looking for.
David Wright, Dillon Gee and Josh Thole for Matt Garza and Geovanny Soto
put down the crack pipe
If they want anything close to what the A’s got for Gio then it’s not worth it. I’ve always liked Garza (more than Gio), but….
Starting pitching has cost teams an arm and a leg this season.
David Wright, Dillon Gee, Josh Thole and Jeurys Familia for Matt Garza, Geovanny Soto and Josh Vitters
You don’t seem to understand that the Cubs are rebuilding and want prospects.
Epstein will stick it to the Sox every chance he gets.
Yeah but then who would pitch for the Cubs? They have literally no one. Before Travis Wood, their rotation was 3 pitchers deep w/ Garza, Dempster, and Zabrano. You deal those 2, you need at least 2 pitchers to replace them with, maybe more. Where are they going to get that pitching?
Red Sox- Lars Anderson, Sean Coyle, and 2 pitchers for Garza
Blue Jays- Kyle Drabek, and whoever
Yanks-I have no idea an don’t care
Drabek and a bag of pucks?
Not sure what’s funnier? Your thinking that Lars Anderson is still a legit prospect or the thought that Lars and Coyle are the headliners and then the famous throwaway’s aka 2 unnamed pitchers for Garza.
Drabek is a mess right now – I’d take about any of their top pitching prospects over him.
Oswalt hasn’t had as strong of a year as Garza did last year since 2006. Calling them a similar value is ridiculous. Oswalt had a fWAR of 2.5 last year and has serious injury concerns.
Trade Garza to the Angels for Trumbo (1B) and a couple high ceiling kids. Then, extend Trumbo tho his arb yrs. Done…
I’m not sure who the high ceiling players would be. The Angels lower minors aren’t bulging with talent right now. They also have a knack for developing undersized middle infielders. What pitching talent they have had they have dealt in the past few seasons.
Rather help the Rangers out then Anaheim. The Rangers are still a better team.
As a Jays fan, I would be willing to give up a choice of McGuire/Hutchinson/Marisnick, a choice of Cecil (who may be a lot more successful in the NL)/Wojciechowski/Jenkins, a choice of A.J. Jimenez/C.Perez, and Snider (who needs a new MLB hitting coach and a change of scenery)/Cooper (since we don’t really have room for him and someone else may want to give him a short term trial). I know some Jays fans will complain that I’m giving up too much, because they love Snider, Hutchinson, and Jimenez, and non-Jays fans will say it’s not enough, because they haven’t heard of some of these guys.
From the Cubs perspective, I think this trade would give Theo the young pitchers/assets that he seems to be looking to accumulate.
From the Jays’ perspective, I like the fact that Garza is a swing and miss pitcher that’s proven in the AL East and would become our de facto number 2 (although I’m biased because I like hard throwers and guys that go challenging hitters, which I remember him doing when he was with the Rays)….and I know that you have to give up something to get a guy like that in return. Two years of control isn’t that bad especially when he’ll probably net us a pick after that (and to get picks, which AA loves, under the new CBA you have to lose real star players, which is why I think AA will be more open than ever before to trading guys that MAY not fit on his team in exchange for 2 year rentals, or maybe even 1 year rentals that will net him a high pick the following year…hence talk of guys like Carlos Quentin). Furthermore, prospects are just that, prospects, and they can’t be valued under the assumption that all of them will enjoy some sort of success. So when you want to trade prospects for proven talent you’re going to have to give up some considerable POTENTIAL. I personally believe that the league may be starting to overvalue prospects a bit.
Having said that, I would not be willing to trade guys like Gose, D’Arnaud, Syndergaard, or Sanchez unless it was for a sure fire #1…because despite their high risk, if they do work out, these are the high reward high ceiling guys that we need to be able to hold onto in order to compete in this division (and I do believe that based on pure tools Gose has a higher ceiling than Marisnick…which of course has been debated by many a Jays fan…personally, I don’t love Marisnick because I’ve watched video of his swing and it reminds me too much of Francoeur)
Lastly, if a package like that doesn’t get it done, I’m happy to try to sign Oswalt or to stay the course and to see what Drabek/Hutchinson/McGowan can accomplish this year
too expensive for the Jays. Marisnick, Cecil, Jimenez, and Snider. Yikes. That’s a lot of potential to give up.
i agree with most of what you said except Snider, you sell high and thats NOT snider. He’s only 23, lots of upside, he’s usually the type of guy AA goes for.
I still think its going to be a 3 way trade with the Padres for Rizzo and Headley.
So you’re saying the Tigers-Pads-Cubs because the Tigers want Headley.
Kyle Drabek, Daniel Norris, and whoever from their
Norris hasn’t even pitched yet and can’t be traded. The Jays do have a lot of pitching prospects in the lower minors so they definitely have what it takes.
No Kyle Drabek. Please, Theo, NOOOOOOOO!
I’ll say he’s going to the Jays for Marisnick, Syndergaard and Henderson Alvarez.
Way too much.
not a chance. that’s way too expensive.
McGuire, Jiminez, Syndergaard and Jenkins for Garza.
Might be a bit much, but with the Jays depth in pitching prospects I am ok with the deal.
hmmm, both McGuire and Synd. (plus the loss of Molina) would really hurt that depth.
Alvarez, Hutchinson, Nicolino, Norris, Cardona, Sanchez, Asher W. is still a lot better than a lot of teams.
sure, but you figure more than half of them won’t pan out or will be converted to relievers.
great, i will let AA know its ok now that your blessings to get ripped off are present
“One executive told Heyman that the Yankees and Blue Jays have what it takes to acquire Garza.”
Every team has what it takes, it’s just a matter of if they’re willing to part with it.
I wouldn’t read too much into ol’ Heyman’s tweets. Here, I’ll predict the next one:
‘NL scout says that the jays “love” garza. aa reluctant to part with top prospects tho’
Not really true, as the Cubs are looking for prospects. The Brewers, for instance, couldn’t put together a good enough package for Garza right now, as neither Bradley nor Jungmann can be dealt yet.
I believe Epstein needs to work out the deal with Boston
Young pitching? Easy.Mariners send: Pineda to Cubs
Cubs send: Garza to Jays
Jays send: Lawrie to Mariners (another toss in if Theo doesn’t bite)
Lawrie isn’t getting moved, we have no viable option to play third if he’s gone, it would just create a bigger hole
Bautista? TOR has like 9 OF options.
true, but he doesn’t really want to play 3rd, i’d rather him in rf anyway
Ok. Get back to the drawing board.
haha nice i saw this after i responded to his post.
Lawrie is probably one of the few untouchable pieces on the roster.
what a preposterously egregious what if… mmmmmmayyyyyybe pineda for lawrie as the principles in a deal could be worked out (cant ever see it happening) …but the dilusional assumption that you could swap 2 years of garza for Michael Pineda is …well its just sad brandon. thats like me saying brett cecil for starlin. thats like me saying pat tabler for ryne sandberg.
sorry to be harsh but wow. back to the drawing board.
how is it sad? Pineda is under team control for a long time and he’s affordable. not to mention a borderline future ace. garza’s price is up there so they’d essentially be adding a building block for the future in pineda. Lawrie is a stud at 3b and hate to break it to you but you have to deal talent to get talent. the asking price for garza is nuts but this is an option that gets the conversation started. i’m not saying they couldn’t add pieces but trades start around centerpieces.
definitely not sad at all…so don’t really know what you’re looking at. 3b would be an easier spot to fill as opposed to a staff ace. don’t try to get all high and mighty because all in all the parameters of this are pretty equal.
As a Mariner fan i would personally love that trade, Lawrie would start at 3rd right away
Drabek and Snider for Garza
Yankees get Matt Garza. Cubs get Dellin Betances, JR Murphy, Adam Warren, and Graham Stoneburner. I feel like that’s a good trade for both teams.
well said Matt, finally some reasonable thoughts. why trade top prospects for a number 3 starter when you can sign an oswalt or jackson..seriously. Garza was only 3 games above .500 in his time in the A.L. east.
Relly?…Really? What about the compensation for friggin Theo? Just give us Garza
For everyone saying that Theo is asking too much and that you wouldn’t give top prospects… well it’s not like Theo has to trade him. He is a pitcher that is cheap and successful, if you don’t want to give a lot up, you won’t get him. It’s not going to hurt Theo if he can’t trade him. Theo’s mentality here is.. “The only way to get him is to overpay.” If he doesn’t get what he wants for him… Oh well, I guess Theo is stuck with the Cubs #1 pitcher.
That’s the attitude of every GM who shops a player, but it’s no guarantee that they’ll get what they want.
People know that the Cubs are in rebuild mode, so they’d be better off moving him now for maximum return and not having to pick up the salary. And y’know, Garza is a fine player but he’s no Lincecum or Hernandez; the Cubs are due a nice return, but not necessarily “too much”.
Would love to see the Jays make a run at Garza if the price is not ridiculously high…obviously it will be high, but I think it’s worth it to add a battle tested, AL East proven, 200IP+ guy who can easily be a number 2 starter on most teams. Lock him up for several years and have a rotation of Romero, Garza, Morrow, Alvarez, and someone to round out the rotation like Cecil/Drabek/McGowan (whoever is not traded) or go after a guy like Joe Saunders to finalize the rotation…they’d be NASTY for years and years to come, especially with that lineup. If they could find a way to get Garza and have a 1-2 punch of Romero & Garza with a pretty sparkling rotation 3-5 they’ll be instant contenders. Add another impact bat at some point over the next few years, definitely make sure that pen is solidified…talking World Series contenders.
zach you think joe saunders is in any way shape or form an option!? way rather throw brett cecil back out there and see what he can do. why not just bring dana eveland back
Hearing the deal would include Marnishick, Drabek, Gose,and McGuire.
too much…I don’t see AA doing Marisnick & Gose, especially after he worked so hard to get Gose…also don’t see AA selling low on Drabek when he has more upside than any of our guys in AA (not counting Alvarez because he’s been up with the big club)
hey ray…i dont know how familiar you are with this farm system or these players but that is an ungodly haul. you dont get anywhere near that type of talent for 2 years of matt garza.
your lil birdy is batty.
thats 4 top ten prospects. not happening for 2 years of a #2 SP.
i would say take one of marisnick or gose, and one of drabek or mcguire. then i think we might have a deal.
Just to set the tone for the debate here, Garza is two years away from free agency and is likely going to make $8m in arbitration this year, period! So for all those Cubs fans looking at the farm systems of the Jays, Yankees and/or R-Sox and drooling, think again. The reason guys like Cahill, Gio, and Latos were traded before Garza is they they’re much more attractive pieces from a contract/years of service perspective. I just don’t see the Cubs getting much beyond a single big chip prospect and a couple maybes in return.
This is exactly why I think the Sox will end up with Garza in the end. Even if the Yankees or Jays offer a great package, the Sox will do what it takes to simply match it or at least “come close.” The Cubs still owe the Sox compensation for Theo, so trading Garza for his former top prospects would make sense for both sides.
The Sox could part with Ranaudo (who probably has Garza potential), Middlebrooks (future solid 3B), and Doubront (rookie to take Garza’s spot in the rotation in 2012. Even if the Yanks offer Benuelos and Betances, I think the Sox can at least come close enough to get the deal done.
i hope the jays are seriously in this, but the track record with these rumors suggests this is just another hoax
If it’s rumored….Jays most likely aren’t interested. Thanks for crossing him off the list.
Guys Theo is just playing jays and yanks. He is just going to see what is the most they will offer then give the sox a chance to match it. He owes the sox Something for himself. Theo will end up with, Reynaldo, Croyle , Wilson and Bogarts. The Cubs will throw in Jackson. Then the sox sign Oswalt. Bard and Aceves go back to pen. This sets up on paper the best staff with only one FA signing. Sure that’s a load for Garza, but the Sox protect Kalish, Lavanaway, WMB, Iggy, Brentz the five guys who can help in 2012-2013. A cheap pen and next year can trade a Beck or Buck and re-stalk system. Plus they will have a few big contract coming off books. Youk could be moved as well for a prospect or two. The Garza trade is a must for the sox.
Jackson is untouchable! Why would we trade him? If we are rebuilding then why would we trade our #1 prospect?
Cause he’s really garbage…oops don’t tell anybody…shhhh
5 tool players that will put up above average numbers are garbage?
Ha, yeah ok. .250 something at AA. Which tool is that?
IMHO, Garza is only a standout pitcher when he is pitching against the Jays. I hope that doesn’t mean that AA loses his head, and the direction the team is patiently embarking on, and trade hard earned/won prospects for him. You wouldn’t trade these names for Esteban Loaiza would you?
I think a reasonable offer from the Red Sox would be Ranaudo, Middlebrooks, Doubront, and another mid-level prospect.
i see shaun marcum as a decent comp for matt garza. different style pitchers for sure, but similar career results and 2 years of control at the time of deal (marcum was 28 at the time, garza is 27). i guess the main difference at the time was marcum’s injury history vs. garza who has been very consistent piling up innings.
marcum of course was traded for one elite level prospect (brett lawrie). it definitely doesnt have to be a 1 for 1 swap (say d’arnaud for garza), but i think thats the kind of value that makes sense.
not exactly a stellar year for starters
I don’t think Sanchez is overrated because nobody ever rated him high. The 2 cathers ranked the highest are Montero (if he counts as one lol) and Romine.
Garza is the new Edwin Jackson…..changing teams like Blues Jays intrested in articles on MLBTR.
Guys what’s so good about Garza, I thought he was a crazy pitcher until I looked him up a bit. I mean he’s 2 games below .500 in his career, and highest win total was 15 in a yr, I don’t get it. I mean hell Brett Cecil got 15 wins not to long ago, so why would we trade a bunch of players for Garza?
There are more stats than just wins and loss!
Oh I know but another thing he has never struck out more then 200 batters either, don’t get me wrong one good thing is he’ durable and has shown he can hurl over 200 innings which is good. Would he help the Jays? Sure he would, But I just wouldn’t wanna give up too much for him
He’s also never won a gold glove!! I think you’re looking in all the wrong places to determine whether he is a strong pitcher. He had a K/9 approaching 9 last year and kept his walks under control at around 2.85 I think. There are not many guys that can pitch 198-202 innings and get 200 strikeouts that year, he finished last year with 197. You’re really grasping at straws here.
Strikeouts aren’t directly related to success as a pitcher. Look at WHIP, Batting AVG against, K/BB ratio, etc. Come on man!
You can’t just look at wins and losses. There is too much influence on things outside of the pitchers control that effects those stats. Someone could have 17 wins on a contender with some pretty mediocre stats.
For Garza you have to look at his body of work over the years. He is young, has two years of control (cheap), and has pitched in high pressure situations very well. He averages about 197 IP per season over the last 4 seasons. He has a great strikeout rate which makes him a good high pressure situation pitcher. Last year I think he had 190+ strikeouts through 190+ innings which is excellent. Granted he was in the NL, that’s still very good. In all honesty I think he is an underrated pitcher that if you put solid and consistent offense behind could win 17-19 games.
Great insight, I forgot about the playoffs and such, I’d love for him to come in and im and Ricky put up around 16-19 wins each, but who knows.
No problem. The wins I spat out are really an overestimation on my part. In reality I could see him with 15 wins in the AL East behind a solid #1 starter. I would love to have him on the Yanks for the right price, but the price is never right and never will be.
Ps. Thanks
Wins-Losses has to do with how many runs your team scores. He pitched for the Rays and Cubs, two horrible offenses. John Lackey had a 6.41 ERA last year and was 12-12 (because the Red Sox scored the most runs in baseball). Come on man!
A 15 game winner in the AL east would be considered special. Garza has that potential with a team like the red sox or yanks. Garza would fit nicely in the 3rd or 4th spot in the sox rotation. After that a right fielder and after that , look out yanks.
I forgot to mention, the only thing I dislike about Garza is that infernal spitting while waiting for the pitch sign. That’s gross,
why can’t he just grab his crotch like other players?
You have to think too, that the jays have had really good run production in the past few years, tons of hr, still could use a bit more though
You have to consider too, is when the Astros move to the al, be it this year or next, the jays will have more games against easier teams than say the yankees or red sox or rays, so this could mean we add garza we are contenders, especially with the new wild card spots too, so hypothetically If the jays can get garza, they will have Romero potential 17-20 game winner, garza potential 12-16 game winner and morrow a potential 9-12 game winner, along with a full year of Alvarez and maybe Cecil or drebek will be golden, what we are really missing is garza in between Romero and morrow because morrow hasn’t shown he can get a decent amount of wins but garza has, that is what we are missing is that third double digit game winner
I would love to see the Rangers Pull off a trade for Garza, Sign Fiedler, Trade Moreland and at at 3 other to the Cubs for Garza and Soto. Soto can serve as the bulpen catcher.
Pitching, pitching, pitching. Pitching will beat hitting almost everyday. How many pennants did the Braves win with Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz? Sure, they only won the 1 World Series, but they got to the playoffs to have a chance to play for it like 10 years in a row or more. The Phillies will be there every year now as long as they keep Holladay, Lee and Hamels, plus they have the young kid Vance Worley and Roy Oswalt to boot. You can have a killer hitting lineup, and your not going to win that often. Look at the Yankee’s offense. Its an all-star after all-star. But no pitching to get the job done. Red Sox didnt make it this year, because the pitching let them down. Youve got to have pitching, and thats it.
Pitching, pitching, pitching. Pitching will beat hitting almost everyday. How many pennants did the Braves win with Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz? Sure, they only won the 1 World Series, but they got to the playoffs to have a chance to play for it like 10 years in a row or more. The Phillies will be there every year now as long as they keep Holladay, Lee and Hamels, plus they have the young kid Vance Worley and Roy Oswalt to boot. You can have a killer hitting lineup, and your not going to win that often. Look at the Yankee’s offense. Its an all-star after all-star. But no pitching to get the job done. Red Sox didnt make it this year, because the pitching let them down. Youve got to have pitching, and thats it.
2011-2012
when average is …. good ???