The Twins offered prospects Wilson Ramos and Aaron Hicks to the Mariners for Cliff Lee, according to a report by Jeff Fletcher of AOL FanHouse yesterday. Reports have since indicated that the two clubs are not close to a deal. If nothing works out between the Twins and Mariners, other teams, such as the Yankees, Mets, Rangers and Reds would likely be involved. We'll keep track of all the day's Cliff Lee rumors right here, so check back later in the day to see if we have moved this post back to the top of the page with updates.
- ESPN.com's Buster Olney (Twitter link) hears that Lee trade talks are "heating up," since some teams want to add the southpaw as soon as possible.
- An official from one team interested in Lee tells AOL FanHouse's Ed Price that his club has yet to hear back from Jack Zduriencik regarding what sort of return the Mariners are seeking.
- B.J. Upton, now involved in the Lee rumors, tells Marc Topkin of the St. Petersburg Times that he doesn't want the Rays to trade him (Twitter link). Joe Maddon also talks to Topkin about the Upton rumors, saying there's "nothing from our end regarding that being true."
- The Yankees believe they could trade for Lee if they wanted to, according to ESPN.com's Buster Olney (via Twitter).
- The Yankees are “kicking the tires” on Lee, a source tells Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. The source estimates that the Yanks have less than a 50% chance of obtaining Lee and suggests the Yankees could flip Javier Vazquez to another team if they do acquire Lee.
- The Rays are on the periphery of the Lee sweepstakes, according to Rosenthal’s sources, who confirm that B.J. Upton–Cliff Lee trade talk surfaced amoung scouts last night.
- The Tigers like Lee, but aren't optimistic about acquiring him, according to Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (via Twitter).
- Olney hears that the Mariners "really like" Brewers prospect Brett Lawrie (Twitter link). The 20-year-old second baseman recently made Baseball America's mid-season All-Star team. Lawrie "still strikes out too often and is a work in progress at second base," but is among the offensive leaders at AA. The Mariners have 2009 first rounder Dustin Ackley, also a second baseman, hitting well in AA, though Ackley's presence doesn't mean they can't pursue Lawrie.
- Morosi hears that talks between the Mets and Mariners have not progressed much (Twitter link).
- Jerry Crasnick's sources estimate that there's a 60-100% chance that the Mariners trade Lee this month. The Mets prefer Lee to innings eaters and the Yankees ‘covet’ him, but the Phillies would be more likely to pursue Dan Haren if they go after an ace, according to Crasnick’s report for ESPN.com. One AL executive suggested the Mariners might have to explore three-way trades to get as much as possible in return for the left-hander.
- A rival executive told Ed Price of AOL FanHouse that the Twins will ‘go hard’ after Lee. Some believe the Rangers called Omar Beltre up to showcase him for the Mariners.
- Peter Gammons hears rumblings of a Lee-B.J. Upton deal and wonders if a third team could be involved along with the Mariners and Rays (Twitter link).
- Rosenthal hears that no deal between the Twins and Mariners is imminent. Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik declined to characterize the talks he has had with the Twins, but Jon Paul Morosi hears that the Mariners have scouted the Twins extensively. Executives were divided on whether the Twins, who have traditionally held onto their prospects, would offer Hicks and Ramos in the same deal.
You have to think what Fletcher heard was that the Twins were willingto deal Hicks and Ramos but in the sense that either one could be moved in a Lee package and not that Hicks and Ramos was the package.
I sure as hell hope so. “Would you like Hicks or Ramos?” is a helluva lot different than “Would you like Hicks AND Ramos?”
The latter makes me pretty uneasy.
Yeah that’s a pretty big overpay if true…and a pretty big misreading of the market by Jack Z if he didn’t accept it.
TWO blue-chippers is what the Phils gave up for basically 4 seasons of Halladay. It’s a lot to pay for 3mo of Cliff Lee.
The Phillies traded for 1 season of Halladay plus whatever discount they received on the extension he signed with them, but not the extension itself.
At $20 million for the next 3 seasons, he’s pretty much being paid market value in 2011-2013. We can quibble about the value of not having to sign him to a 5 or 6 year extension, but the comparison is really:
2 top-100 prospects for 1/2 season of Cliff Lee, or 2 top prospects plus another prospect for 1 season of Halladay and some negotiating leverage at a similar salary (remember the Blue Jays kicked in $6 mil in the deal).
Would Lee reject a 3-year/$65 million dollar extension if the Twins offered it at the time of the trade? It’s an open question, but 2 top-100 prospects for 1/2 season of Lee seems fair.
That’s not exactly true…Halladay had agreed to the extension prior to the trade; the negotiating window was part of the deal. It’s the reason Halladay’s deal was announced virtually simultaneously. The Halladay deal was essentially Taylor-Drabek-D’arnaud for Halladay (WITH an extension in place) and $6m.As for the extension…I highly doubt Lee would accept that, as it’s basically the same deal Halladay has (well Doc is 3/60, but it’s close), and the Phils offered it to Lee first. Multiple sources have said Lee’s agent responded to that offer by saying Cliff wanted CC’s deal.Maybe it’s fair, but I highly doubt they get another offer with two blue-chips.
Taylor…not Brown.
D’oh my bad, too much thinking about current prospects!
I hear ya, they better not trade Brown for Lee or Haren…Haren could be a decent deal right now but Hamels and Haren in the same rotation scares me a bit (HR-prone in a HR-park)…but if they can base a deal around players like May, Cosart, Gose, Calvin, or even Bastardo I would think it would be a good deal.
Although, Cosart seems to be the reason that they were able to let go Drabek AND Knapp. I think Brown and Cosart are untouchables (here we go again with that word) in the RAJr.’s mind.
Yeah Brown and Cosart have to be off the table…the Phils are getting too expensive, they NEED young guys to fill spots in the next couple of years.
They have two 1B prospects currently killing the ball at AA and A (Rizzotti, Singleton), but this is a new level of production for Rizzotti and Singleton still has too little history to be called a true blue-chipper.
If Amaro could convince a GM that Rizzotti is for real and make a trade while still keeping Brown, Cosart and Singleton it’d be fantastic…but that’s pie-in-the-sky.
Lee is going to be 32 on Aug. 30. He’s most likely going to have one final shot at a mega-contract a la CC Sabathia. No way he signs a three-year, $65 million deal. He’s going to test the market and if he’s healthy, someone will give him not only the vault, but the keys to the bank as well.
Yes Cliff Lee would turn down a 3 year 65 million dollar extension offer. He will sign for 5 maybe even get an option for the 6th year. I assume his yearly value will be less than CC’s and more than Beckett/Burnett/Lackey. 5 years 105 million with a mutual option at 23 million for year 6.
He will get an offer that trumps 3 yrs 65 million by a long shot from the Yankees, Mets, Rangers *by then they wil have new ownership in place* and probably another team i’m not thinking of. So chances are he will go with free agency.
Lee will get 3 years with a 4th year option from most teams….
yankees are crazy if they go 5 on lee..but a 1-3 of cc/lee/aj with phil as ur 4th starter is sick too…basically lee will get overpaid by around 40-50 mil ( based on the extra 2 years )
The crazy thing is the Mariners will get around 2 blue chip prospects. Jack Z is smart and knows Cliff lee is the hottest pitcher in game ATM
Hicks and Ramos sounds like the most the Twins could offer. Thats a pretty darn good package. Unless the Mariners are holding out for a package headlined by more of a power hitter, I’d have to say this package by the Twins should be enough to get it done.
Looks like the Twins are the frontrunners for the Yankees 2011 first round draft pick.
You’re right….except its going to the Mets 1st Rounder, not the Yankees….lol
I see the Mets signing Lee not the Yanks.
Thanks for the fair and balanced input, diehardmets.
please please please tell me what you see for the winning lottery numbers tonight
Ah forgot about Pettite’s likely retirement. In that case, yes, you’re right that it will probably be the Yankees.
Looking at statistics, Hicks and Ramos is not that attractive of a package. The M’s need a MLB ready hitter, and neither of these guys seem to fit that description.
I agree, although I know nothing of either of these guys. What’s the ceiling on Hicks? He seems to be the Twins #1 prospect (at least on Baseball Cube) but his stats are really not that great.
Minor league stats aren’t a very good indicator of MLB potential. Most players focus on developing skills, like spending a month trying to slap the ball to the opposite field, rather than trying to pump their OPS.
This is especially true in systems that are renown for developing MLB talent, such as Minnesota’s.
I’ll give Hicks the benefit of the doubt, considering his level. But Ramos’ .208/4/19 in 52 AAA games is not impressive at all. I for one find potential can only take you so far, and if you’re supposed to be the man at AAA, his numbers in my opinion, just don’t cut it. Also, I think outfield is a position the M’s are pretty strong in for the future. Saunders has turned a corner this year.
Ramos is struggling big time this year, but injuries have seemed to play a major issue in that. Hicks is top notch. He has all the skills, it’s just most of it is very raw at the moment. It will probably take him another year or two before he really blossoms in the minors. The guy is a toothpick in size and hasn’t grown into his body much yet.
Yonder should make for a good trade center piece. He is really starting to come around in terms of power and patience at the plate. His average is rising and staying up and the ball is jumping off his bat. Seems like he is always hitting a double.
Wow, I just woke up and saw Ramos AND Hicks and i almost dumped my pants. I would take these two for Lee in a second. In half a second. I’m not crazy about Ramos because we have Adam Moore, who has killed the ball in the minors, but it hasn’t shown in the big leagues yet.
These are the kind of prospects we could flip for a big league 1B
I’ve seen Hicks play many games this year, and while his stats aren’t great, I’m tellin you this kid is a major leaguer. However, Ramos is just not that great at all. In 3 years, he’ll be a backup catcher. If I was the Twins, I’d do this for sure. Cliff Lee is one of the surest things in baseball barring injury.
What have you seen at all that tells you Ramos will be a backup catcher in 3 years? Just because of a bad 1/2 a season? He’s been a proven hitter at every level he’s been at. The only thing that will keep him down are the injuries. Every year it seems he has something wrong with him that keeps him out for a month.
The main reason I say that about Ramos is because of his terribly weak walk rate. The best identifier in translating minor league stats-Majors success = plate discipline. I’m not the only one saying that either. I trust John Sickels more than anyone else, and he’s very worried about Ramos’s walk rate and overall discipline. I completely agree.
You do realize that Ramos is a catcher right??? There isn’t a Molina brother that has an career OBP above .325 yet if you asked around the league and most every GM would tell you that they would have loved to have one of them on their team as a young player. His walk rate is pretty irrelavant. He’s never going to be an on-base guy (everyone should already know that). He’s going to be a very, very good defensive catcher who should develop quite a bit of pop eventually.
Via USS Mariner-
He was the 14th overall selection in the 2008 draft, and while he’s not close to the majors at age 20, he’s got some serious upside. He’s a switch-hitting premium athlete with five tool potential who is already showing a decent grasp of the strike zone at a young age. He’s not a polished product by any means, as he doesn’t currently possess big time power and he strikes out too much, but the natural abilities are there for him to become a star.
Via Prospect Insider-
Aaron Hicks is a beast — one of the twenty five best prospects in baseball in my opinion. Guy has one of the strongest arms in baseball, has shown good plate discipline, and the power is likely to come. Probably can play CF, but would be an upper echelon right-fielder. Getting Aaron Hicks would make me really happy — I just don’t think it’s gonna happen.
Propect insider also mentioned how in 3 of the 4 months this year he has Slugged 463, 447, 571 but in one he had a dreadful 313 slugging which tore down his slugging %
As a M’s fan I would love this but dont believe that they offered Both Ramos and Hicks to Seattle
Re: The BJ Upton-Lee three way rumor… keep in mind we heard that exact story last December when Halladay was on the market, and it got shot down.
That said, Lee makes a lot of sense for the Rays.
If Cliff Lee got onto the Rays pitching staff, we would have quite the three team pitching competition in the AL East between Red Sox, Yankees, Rays.
Amazing deal for Seattle, if true. Aaron Hicks is a stud. Ramos on the other hand, I really don’t think he’s all that good. We’ll see. But I think MIN is overpaying a bit.
Yeah, as a Twin fan, dealing Ramos AND Hicks would be the biggest mistake the Twins have made since letting David Ortiz go. One could be had, but not both. The only way that this deal could at least be swallowable is if they were allowed to sign Lee to a multi-year deal.
I am not sure that letting Ortiz go was the worst call in the last few years. I would put the Young, Harris/Garza, Bartlett trade and the Santana trade ahead of that. I would also place the Mike Lamb contract and maybe even Ramon Ortiz and Livan Hernandez above that.
interesting. that would be a decent deal but u have to wonder who the 3rd team is. i can say that the nationals had interest in BJ Upton earlier in the year so they could, chance are not high tho, be the 3rd team. who knows tho.
If the M’s rather take a packaged headlined by B.J. Upton over a packaged headlined by either Ramos or Hicks, Jack Z’s resignation papers should be due in the day of.
I could see Kansas City getting in on Upton, I was thinking of a 3 way deal where they’d send Alex Gordon to Seattle, but I don’t see them trading away Hosmer or Moustakas because they’re way too good. Maybe they can also get Wade Davis in a deal. M’s can play Gordon at 3B and just dump Jose Lopez to anyone who asks.
I can also see a deal where they trade Aardsma and Lee to the Twins, maybe ask for Slowey or Blackburn with those two prospects and they’d have a deal. Slowey would excel in Safeco seeing that he’s an extreme flyball pitcher.
Gordon to Seattle would be good. So let’s say Cliff Lee goes to the Rays and BJ Upton goes to the Royals. Who plus Gordon goes back to Seattle to make it even?
Seattle would love Hosmer (Hosmer + Gordon and your IF corners are set for a while), but that does seem like too much to give up.
Here’s an interesting idea: Mariners get Alex Gordon and Kila Ka’aihue. Maybe something else, I’m not sure, but both are lefty bats and fit well in Safeco. Plus, the Mariners need a mashing 1B/DH type and a 3B, and the Royals don’t seem like they love either player. Matches with Jack Z’s apparent indication that Seattle is interested in talent close to the majors. Might need to throw in a prospect to even things out?
Yeah, that seems to be the problem. The Royals hitting prospects are too good to give up for Upton, and while the M’s want major league ready bats, I’m not sure Gordon and Kila would be enough. Maybe the Rays trade Brignac or S-Rod to the M’s or Royals to make it work? Mariners- Brignac, Gordon, KilaRoyals- UptonRays- LeeI think that could work. KC could also pay Guillen’s contract and give him to Tampa if they need a DH. Not a typical Rays move to trade prospects for rentals, but with Boston’s injury problems, they really need to attack and get the wild card spot if they can’t win the division.
Rays lineup would look like this:
C- Jaso/Shoppach
1B- Pena
2B- S-Rod/Zobrist
3B- Longo
SS- Bartlett/S-Rod
LF- Crawford
CF- Jennings
RF- Zobrist/Kapler/Joyce
DH- Guillen
Not bad.
I wouldn’t trade Brignac and Upton for a rental.
They are important pieces to give up, especially Brignac, but I see Upton as a possible non-tender candidate next year anyways. If he’s going to make 7M or so in arb, they are better off paying 5M extra and just holding onto Crawford. I don’t see the Yankees making a play for him considering how well Gardner and Swisher have been, and they invested in Granderson, but the Red Sox should be in on him.
Upton isn’t a non-tender candidate because you could still get something for him in trade.
If that works, I like it for the Mariners. 1B/DH, 3B, and SS are all areas of need and that fills them immediately.
SEA could include Aardsma. Bullpens always need improving for the stretch run. Not sure whether Aardsma would improve theirs or not, but if so, that adds some more value.
Regardless, I like this for all three teams. The Rays are clearly in a win-now mode, and this gives them a big upgrade for the playoff race. The Mariners get three good players for the 2011 roster. The Royals give up two guys they apparently aren’t sold on long-term and get a cost-controlled player for two years.
GMs should just outsource the trades to the blog community. 🙂
How is Kevin Slowey for David Aardsma a fair deal? I think if Kevin Slowey (or even Blackburn) is included, the Twins take out Hicks. Maybe Slowey/Ramos/mid-level prospect for Lee/Aardsma.
Dude. You don’t have to throw in Blackburn. Then we’d be ripping you guys off. (Sarcasm)
wade davis and bj upton is wayyyyy too much. wade davis was a top 10 or 15 prospect going into the year. he has been inconsistent thus far, but still has the makings of a #2 or 3 starter
Where did you see that. Everything I’ve seen had Davis in the 30’s.
Upton to the Nationals does make sense. Nyjer Morgan has been disappointing, and Upton has been a bit of a malcontent recently.
For the hell of it, here’s a trade proposal:
Rays get: Cliff Lee
Nationals get: BJ Upton
Mariners get: SS Danny Espinosa (AA), C Derek Norris (A+)
Rays get a big upgrade in the rotation and give up an unhappy player, Nationals solidify CF and give up one player who’s blocked (Espinosa by Ian Desmond) and a C who’s far away from the big leagues, Mariners get a SS who’s ready for the majors in 2012 plus a C for the future.
Not sure whether the Rays would then need to get another CF or what. But, it seems like it could work for all three. Might be a lot to give up for the Nationals but they seem to want to make a splash.
The Nats would be getting shafted in that deal, if they were to give up two top prospects, they are better off getting Lee themselves or a stud pitcher who has anothe year of control. Maybe I just hate BJ Upton, I do in fact, but I think that’s far too much to give for another enigmatic outfielder who isn’t coming cheap after this season.
One thing I could maybe see is Dunn for Upton. If the Nats don’t think they can re-sign Dunn, or don’t really want to, they can get a guy they can control next season and the Nats get a quality DH/1B to give them a huge push heading into the postseason run.
Oh I agree, I just see the Nats as wanting to get an immediate return. They have the hype over Strasburg to build on. You improve at the major league level and at least stay in the playoff race for a while next year, and you grow your fan base (which is sorely needed in DC – I live there). Maybe you have to tweak the deal to get more value coming back to Washington, but I think the general principle is there. The Nats are moving in a win-now direction and Upton fits in with that.
I don’t see the Nats trading Dunn. They’re going to re-sign him. Again, living in the DC area, the feeling I get is that the Nats want to put as good a team as possible on the field for 2011. They’ll overpay to keep Dunn here.
Just my opinion.
All in all to me. I would rather see a Blackburn/Slowey, Ramos, and another young arm maybe like Adrian Salcedo or the emerging Liam Hendriks go other then Ramos and Hicks both.
Yeah because Lee has proven that he is a MAJOR LEAGUE game changing kind of pitcher. The Twins would be over paying if they offer up Hicks & Ramos because they have proven….wait they have not proven anything yet. And the M’s can do better than B.J. Upton.
Hicks & Ramos is like the Reds offering up Chapman & Alonso … I’d have to pass on that deal without a 2nd thought
Agreed. Alonso is overrated through the media and fans just like Ramos. And Hicks, just like Chapman might turn out to be a good player someday but its no guarantee. Couldn’t agree more actually.
I highly doubt they’re giving up both. It’s probably a “choose your centerpiece” situation.
Well if the M’s and Twins supposedly are not close in terms of a deal maybe it’s because JackZ has doubts about the potential of either one or both of them. (Hicks/Ramos) Do either of them really look like the potential impact bat the M’s are looking for in a trade?
Either one would be a haul for 3 months of Lee. Ramos is more developed, so he’d be the more interesting one for the M’s.
Can’t imagine the Twins offering Hicks AND Ramos. Frankly, I can’t see them dealing Hicks at all. I know there’s a lot of outfield depth with Hicks, Angel Morales, Ben Revere, Joe Benson, and Max Kepler, but Hicks has by far the highest ceiling of those players. I’ve got a really hard time taking that report seriously.
I suspect the Twins could get a MUCH better price on a guy like Oswalt. They have the ability to add payroll, so they could probably just move ONE of Ramos/Hicks, have a year and a half of Oswalt, and call it a deal. Are you telling me Oswalt is vastly inferior to Lee?
I’m afraid Smith is fixating on Lee, when any of Haren/Oswalt/Lee would get the job done.
Can the Twins really add payroll? They’re already at a franchise record. Next year Mauer is owed a $10.5M raise, JJ Hardy and Orlando Hudson will be free agents, numerous other players get raises or go to arbitration. Looks to me that the Twins are going to have to bump payroll up even more just to keep a similar team next year. Then would you really want a $16M Roy Oswalt? Looks to me that the Twins are just considering a rental player to put them over the top this season.
According to the front office, yes, they can add payroll.
Yes, I’ve heard that too – Target Field is the hottest ticket around. And while I know they can add payroll to this years team I think they’d be hesitant to pick up such a financial commitment as Oswalt (owed ~$7M this year, $16 in 2011, plus $2M buyout) when they have a bunch of holes and raises coming next year. If the Astros are willing to throw in a significant chunk of salary for next year I could see the Twins going for it, but right now I find a rental ace to be the more likely scenario.
Hardy is arbitration eligible next year, so he’ll be a Twin unless he’s traded. Other than that, I also have a hard time believing that the Twins will boost payroll to 115-120 next year. That’s what they’d have to do if they acquire Haren or Oswalt.
If the Twins do nothing next year (let all FA’s go, don’t sign anyone) their payroll will be at about where it is now 95-100 million. I’m not sure if that includes arbitration guess or if people didn’t include possible raises.
Yes, Oswalt is vastly inferior to Cliff Lee. VASTLY. Cliff Lee is a proven playoff winner…went 2-0 and dominated the Yankers in the WS last year. So he is used to the environment. He would be a perfect fit for the Twins and would immediately vault to game 1 and 4 starter vs Yankees/Rays/Red Sox in the first round.
Oswalt is 4-0 career postseason, with a respectable sub-4 ERA. He’s a
career 3.23 ERA guy. I’m still not seeing how he’s some huge
downgrade over Lee.
See, some would say “Well he’s been pitching in the N.L. blah blah blah.”
Well, Minute Maid is average in terms of runs according to MLB Park Factors, plus his career peripherals are excellent.
Sadly, people don’t escape that pitching in the n.l. stigma. Lee has shown he can succeed wherever he goes. The difference between the two, I think, is Oswalt’s contract. Nothing more.
I don’t think Oswalt is vastly inferior to Lee. But that’s a higher salary and if the Astros ate the salary their gonna want more in prospects than what the M’s will want (which seems like the price is already steep right now). And Haren will probably cost the entire farm team (and if you’re the twins, given your history of not trading prospects, he doesn’t seem like an option).
I do not think Ramos and Hicks are too much to for Lee. We are talking about one of the top 3 pitchers in baseball at the moment and probably the best lefty. 18 to 1 k to walk rate? Holy crap!!!!! Hicks is no guaranteed star and I don’t think Ramos will be anything more than an average ML catcher. The Twins also could use a 3rd baseman and a reliever, could this be Lee/J. Lopez/Aardsma for Ramos/Hicks/Slowey/B Duesing?
Twins could fill some serious holes for the playoff run, Aardsma as your setup guy/alt. closer and Lopez’s number would go way up at Target field, Safeco eats righties up.
Target Field is almost as bad as Safeco on right-handed hitters (and Joe Mauer as well, since all his HRs are opposite field shots).
If we were talking 1.5 years of Lee, I don’t think Ramos and Hicks is as much of a stretch, but Hicks’ upside is too much for a rental player.
The Twins don’t typically mortgage their future like that on rentals, and I’d be surprised and disappointed to see them part with Hicks. He’s probably the most highly-regarded prospect we’ve had in our organization since Mauer… six years of Hicks isn’t worth the risk to me, even if he’s no sure thing as you said.
Pretty much agree with everything you said. If we could extend Lee, I’d feel better about parting with Hicks. Lee is almost guaranteed to go though.
I didn’t think the Rays were in the picture, but if they want, they will win a bidding war. They’ve got Jeremey Hellickson chilling in AAA and have tons of depth at SS which has to be an area of interest for Seattle. The Rays could easily move Brignac or Sean Rodriguez for and Hellickson for Lee and improve in a big way.
I could see them putting both Hicks AND Ramos into the deal if they also got Aardsma. That’s probably why Jack Z passed. I’m ok with the Twins offering that now as the longer Jack procrastinates the more the Twins can reduce the offer and find a better suitor for some of those pieces.
I don’t think people are underrating Cliff Lee, he’s an elite pitcher but that said he’s a rental no way around it he’s going to become a FA this offseason, Boras is his agent and he’s going to go to the highest bidder. Is 2 months of Lee worth two prospects like Hicks and Ramos who are both under team control for a long time, I don’t think so. Especially when you consider the fact the Twins are going to need to fill some holes with their farm in coming years when current players leave in FA. Ramos is expendable because we have Mauer but players like Hicks, Gibson and Sano shouldn’t even be brought up in the conversation.
Unless Cliff Lee switched agents and I missed it, his agent is Darek Braunecker, no Scott Boras.
Your right my bad, for some reason I thought he was with Boras but I don’t know where I got that from. That said Braunecker did say Lee is going to FA so he’s still a rental especially for a team like the Twins who just took a big bump in payroll this year.
I understand you guys value your prospects, but if you label these guys untouchable then who is left? Let’s just say hypothetically that Jack Z isn’t that excited about Ramos. Then there’s nobody left to deal. And isn’t Sano like 17 years old? Again, no prospect is a sure thing. Cliff Lee is. Cliff Lee= World Series.
So you think whoever gets Lee will automatically make it to the WS? I doubt it. It will certainly improve the chances, but it’s not automatic. The Twins biggest problems the last few years in the playoffs has been mental mistakes and hitting. They can’t hit anything once they get in the playoffs. Is Lee going to hit too?
Prospects and Lee, to me are the same as far as risk. The prospects might not pan out and the team that gets Lee still might not get past the first round. None of it is guaranteed.
Lee will certainly improve the team, but he’s one man on a 25 man roster.
No, I think that if the TWINS get Lee, then they’ll make it to the World Series. My reasoning is that Cliff Lee is dealing and winning games for the M’s ( a team that is close to the bottom as far as offensive numbers go. He also has shown he can beat the yanks in the playoffs. If he can win with the M’s offense backing him, just think what he could do for a team with more offensive firepower. If the Twins’ GM doesn’t think that a Lee trade will get them to the World Series, then he shouldn’t trade for him and just stand pat. As far as you’re hitting goes, I don’t know what to tell ya except that Lee can bat for you if you guys make it to the WS and play in an NL park. Who knows, maybe he’s a masher at the plate and hits a walkoff for you :).
And I don’t agree with that. The Twins have underachieved so far offensively, but I still think they are more like two to three pieces away from a WS rather than one. I think we need an ace and one more hitter or at least stick with Valencia at 3B instead of the scariness that is Cuddyer at 3B.
I think if the Twins GM does this, it’s going to be more about the pressure than about the fact that we are legit WS contenders. It’s more likely that it’ll blow up in the Twins faces, than it is for them to go to the WS…especially if Hicks is involved.
Cool. Maybe trading for Lee is something the Twins shouldn’t do then.
The Twins are no way locks to get to the WS if they get Lee, no team is not even the Yankees though they’ed certainly be the odds on favorites if they were to get him. To say that any team is a lock to get the the WS because they trade fro Cliff Lee is complete BS.
Uh huh. Not even the Yankees?
Never know what can happen come playoff time, like I said the Yankees would clearly be the favorites but thats not to say they are locks, teams get hot and others cool off. Lee is a great pitcher but even he can have a bad day and come playoff time teams can take advantage of a bad day.
send lee to the rays….send bj upton to the whitesox …send flowers+hudson+one or two more prospect(s) (not named vicedio) to the M’s along with a prospect or two from the rays to the m’s.. pretty good deal for everyone involved
the rays get an ace to push them over the edge to snag the wild card and maybe even get the AL east….the M’s a bunch of prospects, a catching prospect who would probably be better with a change of scenery, a potential top of the order pitcher in hudson and some guys from the rays….the whitesox get a guy who also probably could do with a change of scenery and a smaller park would help him too, he could slot in to either RF or LF and move pierre or carlos quentin to DH, and would allow the whitesox to cut ties with kotsay or jones
JackZ has stated time and again that he is looking for quality vs quantity. And a very legitimate major league ready or close to major league ready impact bat. None of this would make sense for the M’s.
Just guessing. But by impact bat I imagine he is thinking along the lines of 25+ homer and 100+ RBI potential.
fine then the deal to the m’s should be hudson(who is 22 and 11-3 in the AAA right now with a low era, low walk rate and high K rate, he is a stud in the making and more than likely not going to get traded but would make this deal work) Flowers has shown that he can hit he is stuggling right now but still a good catching prospect, and then throw in dyan vicedio for the M’s, he could be a 1st/3rd/DH he has huge power, has played solid D at 3rd and is proving that he can hit in the bigs what about that for a deal to get lee to go to the rays and get upton to come to the chisox…
I could be wrong, and part of me hopes I am wrong, but it appears the Mets are getting closer to the point where they offer Mejia, Thole and F. Martinez. The bullpen has stumbled badly lately, Pelfrey has struggled, and both media and fan pressure is mounting.
That won’t be nearly good enough! It’s almost impossible to imagine Lee to the Mets without Ike Davis heading to Seattle in return. It’s pretty obvious that Seattle is demanding two of a teams top position prospects as part of the package. Thole doesn’t get there and while Martinez is still well regarded, he’s lost some of the shine he had two years ago – unfairly perhaps – but true just the same. I have no idea what Seattle will eventually settle for, but if they didn’t say yes to the Twins top position prospects, they aren’t going to accept for less from the Mets.
Buzz a week or so ago was Seattle wanted Ike Davis or Jon Niese in the deal but they’re no longer top prospects, they’re starters and won’t be traded. Mejia, Thole and Martinez is a better package with higher upside than Ramos and Hicks. No prospect — no matter how highly regarded — is a sure thing. So if you can get three top prospects instead of two it’s a better deal. I agree Martinez has lost a little bit of luster because he’s gotten hurt but he’s also only 21. Jose Reyes went through a stretch of injuries when he was that age, he turned out pretty well.
I can’t see Seattle interested in Thole. Adam Moore is better.
If Jack Z passed up on Hicks and Ramos, he should be fired on the spot. Well, he should already be fired for giving up Morrow for League..
Morrow was so mishandled by the M’s, well before JackZ got there, that it was pretty much to the point that the situation could not be salvaged and Morrow needed to go elsewhere to try to find success. And if JackZ was the M’s GM back in the 2006 draft I think Tim Lincecum is pitching for the M’s today.
Morrow was secretly part of the Lee deal all along people. Remember the “Three Way Trade” that turned out to be two two way trades? The M’s and the Jays reached some sort of agreement that was going to send Morrow to the Jays as part of the Lee deal and then the two clubs got nervous about the Phillies backing out. So they both pulled the trigger on the two ways with an agreement to make a slightly Jays-sided trade that would send Morrow to Toronto.
And there was multiple shooters at the Grassy Knoll?
Nope. That’s crazy talk. But the Morrow thing pretty much adds up when you look at it.
More than likely Jack Z asked for Hicks and Ramos from the Twins and the offer was quickly turned down by the Twins.
3 weeks ago, I said the Rays made the most sense as a trade partner….
Why is assumed that Lee would prefer the Yankees over the Mets? The Mets can match the Yanks offers and they are more desperate…..plus why would he play in a great HITTERS park over a great PITCHERS park? Plus he can stick it to the Phillies for years…..also a rotation of Lee, Santana, Pelfrey and Niese would be top notch…..Mets may not get him this year, but have a good chance nxt year
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It’ll likely be whoever gives him the longest contract/most money or both. He’s getting older and this will likely be his last big contract.
He would like to win the World Series? He’d like to rejoin CC? He’d like to get paid and know he’s pretty much a lock for the playoffs every year (and with CC stands a good chance to go deep every year) instead of playing second fiddle in the NL East? He is told facts, such as Yankee Stadium being a hitter’s park is severely overstated and it’s likely just the fact the Yankees’ offense plays in Yankee Stadium half the time (along with AL East hitters)? He’s a lefty pitching in Yankee Stadium with a cavernous left center-field? He doesn’t want to play for a second class team in a first class city (there’s not much dispute and that’s not necessarily the Mets’ fault)
He wants to play for a Front Office where the manager and GM aren’t on the hot seat every season?
He likes the idea of A-Rod, Teixeira, Jeter and Cano on his defense instead of Bay, Bay, Bay, a rookie in Davis and Reyes and Wright?
He likes having the best closer in the world saving his games instead of a headcase?
Brian Cashman’s eyes are dreamy?
I don’t know, I think there’s a few reasons a player would choose the Yankees over the Mets all things considered.
U make valid points but Reyes and Wright are much better fielders than Arod and Jeter are at this point…. Check the numbers, Wright has been fantastic and Reyes is having his best year ever fielding….as for Bay he just made his 1st error in 262 games tonight….so your defense excuse is no good… Ike is no Texeira but he has been an excellent First Baseman….Mets always make more sense for a pitcher…and if haven’t noticed the Mets are a playoff contender again….I’m just saying it’s possible
If that’s all you’re saying, than most definitely, you’re right, Lee can be had by the Mets. I don’t think anybody disagrees the Mets will be a player. Your initial post made it seem like the Mets are the more desirable destination, and I think at the end of the day, they’re just not.
I meant more the offense behind him than the defense, Wright and Reyes are probably better defensively on the whole, and while Bay’s errorless streak for a corner outfielder is nice and all, I’ll still take an improved Nick Swisher and the speed of Granderson and Gardner over Pagan and Franceur with Bay.
The offensive support isn’t comparable, the Mets are a contender but they’re not a lock (I would say at this point it’s obvious the Yankees are in general), the rotations aren’t close right now and neither are the structures.
The Yankees, regardless of what anybody wants to believe, are still a top destination for any player who doesn’t shy away from enormous pressure, which, as we know from the World Series, Lee does not.
You only have to look at what the M’s payed for Lee this offseason to realize that the Twins offering two top 50 prospects in all of baseball is a complete crock. It is a simple case of a media guy not understanding what his source said. The Twins are probably offering a package built around Ramos or built around Hicks but there is no chance they are offering both for a 2 month rental.
I have never understood this silly argument, and I keep hearing it over and over. What does what the M’s paid for Lee have anything to do with what they should be asking for now? If I sell you a brand new Porsche for $100, does that mean the value is now $100 forever? Should you only expect to receive $100 for the Porsche if you try to sell it? From many accounts, the Phils didn’t even shop Lee before dealing him to the M’s. So the M’s should just expect to get back something similar to what they gave up, after seeing Lee’s performance so far this year and the number of teams drooling over getting Lee?
Personally, I don’t think the Twins are a good match. Ramos is no better than Adam Moore in my mind (Ramos has struggled to hit in AAA and Moore struggled in the Majors this year). Ramos is 21 and is repeating high A. He might be a good prospect but he is a long way away. I’d rather have more of a sure thing talent if I am trading the (by far) best trade chip on the market. If the Twins won’t pony up, there are 5-10 other teams that will.
Your realize that Lee’s price should go DOWN and not up over the last couple of months because you aren’t getting as many starts out of him as the Marineer’s could have expected when they made the trade over the winter.
As far as the Twin’s prospects….find a single credible judge of talent that doesn’t have those two in the top 100 at the beginning of the season and find one that doesn’t have them both in the top 50 now halfway through the season. Quit looking at minor league stats….they mean virtually nothing.
This is how all trade deadline talks go. Rumors fly back and forth about this and that deal and the fact is that when pitcher’s do end up get traded as a rental the price isn’t anywhere close to two top 50 prospects.
You’re right. Stats aren’t a good measure of a player’s skill level. In fact, Ramos shouldn’t even have to prove himself on the field since he has so much upside. I think if you’re the M’s and see his .210 average at AAA, I think that has to account for something.
“Your realize that Lee’s price should go DOWN and not up over the last couple of months because you aren’t getting as many starts out of him as the Mariner’s could have expected when they made the trade over the winter”.
Which is understandable but there is still a highly substantial demand for Cliff Lee. Since, there isn’t more than one Cliff Lee on the market the supply is low. There is nothing wrong with the Mariners expecting a large return. And, IMO it doesn’t seem like they are asking for the moon, they are making a reasonable request in a near major league ready hitter. But, it seems that many fans from other teams just want to offer 4 scrub prospects and think the quantity will satisfy the Mariners asking price. And, I’m not completely happy with the Ramos/Hicks offer honestly. I think Hicks is a good piece, but I think Ramos reflects something we already have in Adam Moore.
I hope they’re not offering Hicks at all and someone was just making crap up. I’d rather give up more players than give up Hicks, Sano or Gibson.
But I do agree, the M’s seem to want the world when they never traded the world for him. I hope the Twins don’t get desperate.
But…. AGAIN… Jack Zdruiencik is on record in saying he wants QUALITY over quantity.
Or just look at the CC Sabathia trade for what the going rate for a rental ace is. 1 Very good prospect (LaPorta) 1 Decent prospect with potential (Brantley), a below average and and a mid level prospect. If the Mariners are asking Ramos and Hicks they are asking for a decent amount more than the Indians got for Sabathia a couple years ago.
What about a Cliff Lee back to the Phillies?
How about a package centered around super OF prospect Dominic Brown?
Or how about a package for Jayson Werth?
why would they want to lose werth, now if they can get lee to sign an extension that they can afford(thank you ryan “not worth my huge extension” howard) then yes but they need that right handed power in that line up
Werth probably gone, Ibanez gone after next season, and a payroll that’s already expensive…the Phillies need near-MLB OF prospects more NOW than they have in the last few seasons. Brown isn’t going anywhere.NOW, if the Mariners were interested in a 1B prospect, the Phils have two very good ones in Jon Singleton and Matt Rizzotti, with Rizzotti being the closer to the majors. The knock on Rizzotti is he’s been a late bloomer (’07 draft) and only been in AA for 50 games (really should have started the season there), but he’s absolutely dominating… .360/.415/.640 with 28XBH (11HR) in 180ish PA’s and an acceptable K rate.Singleton is a name everyone is going to know soon enough – he’s the current flavor of the month for “next monster hitting prospect”. .345/.434/.605 with a K/BB ratio of near 1:1, and he’s 18.
How about “they were retarded for dealing Lee in the first place?”
Aaron Harang to the DL.
Pushing the Reds FO to possibly act fast?
I could see the Reds making a big push for Lee. They play in a hitters park but he did pretty well pitching in a hitters park in Philadelphia. He’s an affordable rental for the Reds and other clubs like them.
As long as the price is reasonable … I have no issues with it … but I can’t agree to giving up more then he is worth
dustin ackley moved to second base?
He was always there to begin with.
he played first in college right?
yeah just read on it on his wikipedia but i remember him being a first baseman/outfielder in college and when drafted as first baseman him saying that he envisions himself as an outfielder and the M’s agreeing and keeping him in left field to begin with..seems like his bat would probably play well at second though if he can be good defensively. how are his stats with the transition to wood bat..as i remember he was a big time .400 hitter throughout all of college
Ackley is a CF. In college, either his second or third year, he injured his arm and was forced to move to first until it healed. The Mariners drafted him with an outfield tag, and he played CF and LF in the AFL. In January, the M’s wanted him to try out 2B, as his offensive skills would make him far far more valuable there. He did so well in the spring that they decided to keep him there. Now he is moving through the minors as a 2B, but still has the ability to play the outfield.
Started out with an abyssmal april. Probably due to using a wooden bat and getting used to a new position. However, he’s been posting really good numbers ever since then. He’s had around .430 OBP since the beginning of May.
This is very off topic but i thought interesting. What do you guys think about this trade between the Tigers and D-Backs
Tigers get
Dan Haren
Stephen Drew
Dbacks reliever
D backs get
Jacob turner
Rick Porcello
Tigers need a shortstop and a starter and D backs need pitching prospects.
Wow. If I was AZ I’d take that in a MINUTE.
are you serious? the dback get screwed in that deal….First off dan haren alone would get at least 2 top prospects and drew would get at least 1 top prospect and a few lower ones..
You’re right….
That is very off topic.
The Yanks have 3 catchers in the top 25 prospects in baseball (Montero, Romine, JR Murphy) plus a bunch of upper level middle infielders (Nunez, Adams, Laird) that are currently blocked for the next 5-10 years. Cashman could put together a package in a hot minute that would get it done. Here’s hoping he doesn’t…but it could be done in a heartbeat.
The Yanks have two prospects in the top 100 in baseball (Montero and Romine). Montero has been slipping in a lot of people’s eyes also and might not project as a catcher in the future. The Yankees do not have enough to get the trade done unless they include Hughes.
mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/07/01/revised-top-25-prospec…
I know this is just one list…but Frank P. is nothing to sneeze at.
Apologies, I meant Sanchez, not JR Murphy. Montero is 20 and in AAA ball and has been picking up steam since June. The kid has a MONSTER bat, but isn’t likely to stick behind the plate.
Its funny how only NY fans make these kind of statements. Both Met and Yankee fans keep saying, “He is ours if we want him.” There isn’t a deal that can be made by the Yankees that couldn’t be beat by almost any other club, “If they wanted to.” That includes all their old ML players. Face it, the Yankee’s strength is in their pocketbook.
Considering they just bought the World Series, you are correct sir.
I haven’t made a baseball proposal in quite a while, so I’m not entirely sure how good of a deal this would be.
Seattle: Lars Anderson, Adelberto Ibarra, Ryan Kalish
Boston: Cliff Lee, Cash Considerations(?)
The Mariners are desperately starved for offense and clearly want a major league ready bat as part of a return for Lee, and Anderson could be called up very soon if the Mariners were to acquire him. They could also use a good catching prospect, hence the inclusion of Ibarra. He’s the only guy in the Boston system who could be considered a first-rate catching rpospect. Not saying he is, but it’d be easier to sell that instead of Wagner, Molina, Exposito, Lavarnway, or Federowicz. They’re all very good players, but far from stud catching prospects. Kalish would defintely not be the dealbreaker, but more of a guy who could make an immediate impact with his bat in the Seattle outfield. This would basically get Boston Lee, money for the rest of his salary, and a couple of New York first round picks (Yankees or Mets, they’ll have it out this winter). If it’s the Mets, you can definitely consider it a potential top 15 pick.
Doubt that does it. Anderson is a solid piece but Ibarra is a 22 year old Cuban they just signed so that probably means he’s about 28. Kalish wouldn’t take Michael Saunders job either so the whole thing is a bit of a bad fit.
Maybe closer to 38 years old.
ESPN.com’s Buster Olney (Twitter link) hears that Lee trade talks are “heating up,” since some teams want to add the southpaw as soon as possible.
Really?! Some hard hitting reports from Buster here folks!
Watch him end up going to a team no one saw coming like the Nationals.
I could see the Twins maxing out at an offer of Ramos plus Blackburn and a couple of mid level guys. This would give the Mariners 2 players who could instantly make an impact for the big league club. Ramos becomes the starting catcher and Blackburn takes a rotation spot.
ok so if the rays trade upton, what does their OF look like for next year ?